The only occasion where I use a 1h+shield is when I am traited for DPS or healing and I am called upon to off-tank something, and then only if the mob I'm fighting does a lot of damage. If I needed to tank something more seriously, I would retrait for tanking and use my 2h sword.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
I only go sword and board if I'm taking an unexpected beating. That and if I'm running in the moors for the extra armour.
Oh yeah. The Moors is a good place for it too. If I am in a raid and not quite in the melee, I'll stand back and spam heals with the shield on.
And for stats, any captain stats will do: might, vitality, critical hit defense, in-combat power regeneration, crit rating, block rating, etc. There's a nice shield that drops in one of the raid skirmishes with might and vitality.
Last edited by dietlbomb; Apr 23 2012 at 03:41 PM.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
Oh yeah. The Moors is a good place for it too. If I am in a raid and not quite in the melee, I'll stand back and spam heals with the shield on.
And for stats, any captain stats will do: might, vitality, critical hit defense, in-combat power regeneration, crit rating, block rating, etc. There's a nice shield that drops in one of the raid skirmishes with might and vitality.
I have not run my captain in groups since Moria. But I used to carry a shield with me all the time, just in case. But I never used it. So I don't bother anymore. I could easily off-tank with two handed halberd in Moria. Maybe I was a bit squishier but off-tanking was for adds and not the boss. I could heal just fine with halberd. I could cover all sorts of roles and duties without ever needing that shield. Even though I had the shield I just never felt comfortable using it. The only people I really saw using one were those who stood in the back row and pretended to be a main healer (they could never match even a mediocre minstrel to be honest); but I'm a captain and not a rear admiral.
If you are the sort who needs to be the best, then that means if you use shield you probably also need a legendary one handed weapon, sucking up a useful LI slot, which feels like a waste. Rune keepers do this and carry multiple sets but it's considered a drawback of the class by many people.
Yes, for stats too, even if you don't have that shield any extra stats are nice.
The design is such that two handed legendaries should provide extra stats to make up for this. However in practice they rarely do. Which is why my champion prefers two weapons. This is something I wish Turbine could remedy. I always hate it at level 50 when I get my first legendary and I feel amazingly gimped because there are all these great level 50 weapons I can't use anymore, and it takes ages until the legendaries become good enough to compete.
I got one of those, too! On a Second Ager! It's my buffstick now (which actually means the OCPR is slightly useful).
My new first age 75 == morale (yay) and OOCPR/parry (boo). Such is life, can't imagine I'll be getting too many WSOTEKs. While it is in the end a pretty marginal difference, still not pleased to get such subpar ones...
Anyway, to OP, I don't carry S+B. But I probably should and have in the past to use in a pinch. I just don't feel like grinding out a decent 1-H weapon right now...
Anyway, to OP, I don't carry S+B. But I probably should and have in the past to use in a pinch. I just don't feel like grinding out a decent 1-H weapon right now...
I agree with this. There are so many other legendary items that are a higher priority for captains than a 1h right now. The only reason I have the shield is because it dropped in a skirmish raid and noone else wanted it (its stats are only good for captains since champs can't use shields anymore). My 1h weapon is an axe with tier 4 relics and three major legacies. It is used sparingly, but used well when called for.
I also used the axe+shield when tanking Draigoch using the 2 tanks strategy when we were still learning the fight. It would also be useful in skirmish raids, when you are traited for dps (most likely) and some nasty lieutenant needs to be kited away by you. The shield is nice there. You can also use the shield at the end of the Foundry if you are 2-tanking it.
It's a shame the sword and shield aren't more useful. I like variety, and sword-n-board is a pretty cool look for a captain. Maybe shields would have been more useful if, instead of allowing 2h weapons to block, the Leader of Men capstone just gave captains a big 1h weapon dps or threat generation buff.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
In what occasions do you use 1 handed+shield ?
What are the main stats you look for on a good shield and for what build ?
Thank you in advance
I carry one with me (the Defensive Dunlending Assault Shield that has Might, ICPR, crit def and block) to match with my backup 2A 1H-SW and use it whenever I'm suddenly mobbed by 4+. Or when I'm rounding up mobs and main-tanking while my hunter friend picks off one by one. Or when I'm rounding up mobs to keep them away from an annoying escort NPC. I'm not traited full LoM for the additional 2H block, thus I keep the shield handy for survival purposes which also increases my healing output a bit. Haven't decided if I want to upgrade for the Stangard captain shield, though. Eh.
In what occasions do you use 1 handed+shield ?
What are the main stats you look for on a good shield and for what build ?
Thank you in advance
The 1h attack speed is generally more beneficial than the shield is. But the shield is useful too, as with a captain's high might you'll likely have around 20% block.
I recommend using a 1h/sh while healing, and miscellaneous situations where your damage doesn't really matter... And obviously tanking. I've had much more luck soloing with sword/board than solo'ing with a 2h. (Talking about solo'ing LL trees/spiders and really any other challenging thing).
In [sic] what occasions do you use 1 handed+shield ?
Never. As a captain, if you can't something done with a 2-H I don't think "sword & board" would make a difference. I've tanked all of the Isengard instances on tier 2; soloed tyrants in the Ettenmoors, trees and spiders in Limlight Gorge; off-tanked in various Orthanc raids; and never equipped a shield.
When main tanking, I halberd tank for trash. I use halberd there because trash pulls is where i have most of my threat problems. I try to use shield and 1 hander for bosses, if I remember to switch to it (thats something I'm admittedly not the best about).
Main healing, I use S&B
Off-tanking while traited Red or Blue, I use S&B.
The point about not having enough LI's for a 1 hander is valid. I've got 8 spots, and i have:
All purpose 2 hander
Tanking Halberd
1-hander for healing
LtC emblem
tanking emblem
HoH emblem
buff/swap emblem
Buffstick hybridized as a single-target tanking stick. with tanking relics and Def Strike/To Arms/something else I forget
I chose not to max out parry buff on the buffstick, so I could put more points into the active legacies like def strike and to-arms.
Originally Posted by Roberticus
Never. As a captain, if you can't something done with a 2-H I don't think "sword & board" would make a difference. I've tanked all of the Isengard instances on tier 2; soloed tyrants in the Ettenmoors, trees and spiders in Limlight Gorge; off-tanked in various Orthanc raids; and never equipped a shield.
All of this I have done with no shield (there was a time where I didnt have a good tanking 1-hander). Can =/= should though. For the tanking and off-tanking, better to be safer and keep your healers free to hit support skills than get marginally better dps (especially if LoM and stacking vit).
In what occasions do you use 1 handed+shield ?
What are the main stats you look for on a good shield and for what build ?
Thank you in advance
In my experience, never.
I tried a sword and board combo once, and I wasn't impressed with it - at all. The amount of offense you give up just isn't nearly worth the stats a shield will give you in my opinion. This is coming from a Hands of Healing Captain however. It may have some uses from a defensive/tank perspective. To that I can't speak - though to be honest I really doubt it.
I tried a sword and board combo once, and I wasn't impressed with it - at all. The amount of offense you give up just isn't nearly worth the stats a shield will give you in my opinion. This is coming from a Hands of Healing Captain however. It may have some uses from a defensive/tank perspective. To that I can't speak - though to be honest I really doubt it.
DPS doesn't matter when you're HoH, but getting more might (and other stats from the shield) will help you heal better.
Plus we all know that you can't gear yourself to save your soul.....
DPS doesn't matter when you're HoH, but getting more might (and other stats from the shield) will help you heal better.
Plus we all know that you can't gear yourself to save your soul.....
Please don't start the fate baiting.
But I do agree with Jeremi here. Under most circumstances, a little more dps output doesn't hurt and the increase in stats from the shield is negligible unless you are taking hits. Now I wish the devs would take my advice (why not? ) and make our melee heals proportional to those hits' damage. Broadsword for the win!
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
I strongly disagree. HoH does not mean you're a heal bot standing in the back row. You can heal from the front row as well. Your DPS may not be as high as it could be but it's high enough to be useful, and high enough to pull adds of the main healer. As a hybrid class you sacrifice too much to just pick one small role and stick to only that; I tend to do be doing several different roles all within the same fight.
I strongly disagree. HoH does not mean you're a heal bot standing in the back row. You can heal from the front row as well. Your DPS may not be as high as it could be but it's high enough to be useful, and high enough to pull adds of the main healer. As a hybrid class you sacrifice too much to just pick one small role and stick to only that; I tend to do be doing several different roles all within the same fight.
Seeing how you've already sacrificed most of the DPS gained from a LtC build by going HoH for a relatively small healing increase, what's a little more DPS lost?
Seeing how you've already sacrificed most of the DPS gained from a LtC build by going HoH for a relatively small healing increase, what's a little more DPS lost?
Being in melee also gives you crits -- which triggers RC and other skills that are hugely beneficial for the group. Why would you want to wait for someone else to kill a mob or burn ToM for these to trigger? We have heavy armour and high mitigations for a reason. Sitting at the back of the fight doing nothing but target heal is a huge waste of the spot in the fellow/raid. They would be far better served having a mini/RK fulfilling the squishy healer role.
DPS while HoH may not be much, but it's something, and you cannot ignore the crits. Even running HoH the cappy should have >15% melee crit.
I use it in moors when I group up with kinnies and I use this shield. The best imo as of now. Lorebook stats maybe wrong. Someone posted the ingame stats in Mini forums; so taking it from there.
You do really less damage but attacks fire faster and anyway I will be running around trying not to get killed and firing WoC/RC with SB on someone in group
Who's suggesting that captains stand in the back while they heal? Nobody in this thread. I see Almagnus being snarky, but I don't see him actually espousing that silly idea.
Being in melee also gives you crits -- which triggers RC and other skills that are hugely beneficial for the group. Why would you want to wait for someone else to kill a mob or burn ToM for these to trigger? We have heavy armour and high mitigations for a reason. Sitting at the back of the fight doing nothing but target heal is a huge waste of the spot in the fellow/raid. They would be far better served having a mini/RK fulfilling the squishy healer role.
DPS while HoH may not be much, but it's something, and you cannot ignore the crits. Even running HoH the cappy should have >15% melee crit.
You can sacrifice DPS without sacrificing crit chance.
Besides, with how many HoTs we have, not having a tactical crit chance of around 20% isn't helping you.
Originally Posted by Roberticus
Well put!
A Captain's place is in the melee, regardless of how they're traited. Being in the melee means that every bit of DPS contributed is a benefit.
I'll put this as bluntly as possible:
If you think captain healing = stand back and heal, you don't know squat about captain healing.
Half of our healing skills ARE melee attacks, so if you're not in melee range......
Last edited by Almagnus1; Apr 28 2012 at 01:05 PM.
DPS doesn't matter when you're HoH, but getting more might (and other stats from the shield) will help you heal better.
Plus we all know that you can't gear yourself to save your soul.....
I just disagree with this nonsense. Of course DPS matters when you're HOH. That's what makes a HoH Captain attractive to begin with - it's ability to bring a healthy amount of healing + damage.
Any HoH Captain who neglects doing any damage is seriously gimping his group. If all you want to do is heal - you are playing the wrong class. And the amount of damage you give up by getting rid of your 2-hander will hurt you more than the slight increases to your healing a shield will bring you.
Trust me, it's a very bad trade-off.
As far as your attempts to insult my gear, i'll just politely ignore you, for now Just be careful that in your depserate attempts to start a flame war with me you don't make yourself look silly, as you just did ^^
Any HoH Captain who neglects doing any damage is seriously gimping his group. If all you want to do is heal - you are playing the wrong class. And the amount of damage you give up by getting rid of your 2-hander will hurt you more than the slight increases to your healing a shield will bring you.
When you say you're a HoH captain, it means you are sacrificing your ability to tank and your ability to DPS to put more emphasis on HoH.
Therefore, by taking the HoH capstone, you are making an unspoken contract that you are doing everything in your power to ensure that your healing ability is top notch, at the cost of most of the tank-like survivability and any notion of DPS.
If you are trying to pretend to be a hybrid in a HoH capstone build, you are in the wrong traitline for it. When you go HoH capstoen mode, healing is the ONLY thing you care about. Anyone trying to say otherwise does not understand how the traitline system works - or is trying to mislead other captains into thinking that a HoH capstone build somehow has magical DPS numbers equivalent to a 4+ red build.
It has been parsed to show that HoH does not have that DPS ability. Why sacrifice healing (which is the point of your capstone traiting) for something that runs counter to how your traited?
Therefore, by taking the HoH capstone, you are making an unspoken contract that you are doing everything in your power to ensure that your healing ability is top notch,
No, not "everything in my power". It just means I want to emphasize healing more than the others, but not to their exclusion. The strength of a captain is in diversity and the ability to change roles even during the same fight. You can be hybrid in HoH, your damage is not hurt so much that you shouldn't even bother, your tanking isn't so bad that you can't take on an add to help the main healer survive. Healing should not be the only thing you think about.
The entire game is not a T2 raid where only purity of thought will help you survive. You can trait for healing and not be the best healer, you can trait for DPS and not be the best DPS, etc. Captains are not best in tanking or healing or DPS and NEVER will be, so that purity of thought is the wrong way to approach being a captain. Captain is always hybrid and does better that way, if you need to be a pure role then captain is the wrong class.
No, not "everything in my power". It just means I want to emphasize healing more than the others, but not to their exclusion. The strength of a captain is in diversity and the ability to change roles even during the same fight. You can be hybrid in HoH, your damage is not hurt so much that you shouldn't even bother, your tanking isn't so bad that you can't take on an add to help the main healer survive. Healing should not be the only thing you think about.
The entire game is not a T2 raid where only purity of thought will help you survive. You can trait for healing and not be the best healer, you can trait for DPS and not be the best DPS, etc. Captains are not best in tanking or healing or DPS and NEVER will be, so that purity of thought is the wrong way to approach being a captain. Captain is always hybrid and does better that way, if you need to be a pure role then captain is the wrong class.
Non-capstone build = hybrid
Capstone build = specialized
Trying to be a hybrid when specialized isn't very efficient, nor does it make much sense.
LoM can't DPS like LtC or heal like HoH.
HoH can't DPS like LtC or tank like LoM.
LtC is the oddball here because of the healing legacies and the high threat skills.... but in all honesty, it should follow the same pattern as the other two
When you say you're a HoH captain, it means you are sacrificing your ability to tank and your ability to DPS to put more emphasis on HoH.
Therefore, by taking the HoH capstone, you are making an unspoken contract that you are doing everything in your power to ensure that your healing ability is top notch, at the cost of most of the tank-like survivability and any notion of DPS.
If you are trying to pretend to be a hybrid in a HoH capstone build, you are in the wrong traitline for it. When you go HoH capstoen mode, healing is the ONLY thing you care about. Anyone trying to say otherwise does not understand how the traitline system works - or is trying to mislead other captains into thinking that a HoH capstone build somehow has magical DPS numbers equivalent to a 4+ red build.
It has been parsed to show that HoH does not have that DPS ability. Why sacrifice healing (which is the point of your capstone traiting) for something that runs counter to how your traited?
It's inefficient and a mark of a bad captain.
Nah, I just don't agree with any of this post. It's silly if you ask me, and you highly over-estimate what wearing a shield will do for your heals. It is very neglible, and as I said before, if "healing is the only thing you care about" then you are deffinitely playing the wrong class in my mind. And I think if anything is a "mark of a bad captain" it's one who thinks it's smart to sacrifice a huge amount of his dps just so he can throw a percent or two more on his out-going healing. That is such a silly thing to do IMHO, and a total waste of captain potential. The extra damage you would be doing with a 2-hander would be of far greater worth than w/e difference wearing that shield will do for your heals.
But play your captain like you want - just don't pretend the way you play it is somehow better or more efficient because it deffinitely isn't. There is absolutely nothing "inefficient" about using a 2 hander as a Hands of Healing Captain. I can promise you that.
Nah, I just don't agree with any of this post. It's silly if you ask me, and you highly over-estimate what wearing a shield will do for your heals. It is very neglible, and as I said before, if "healing is the only thing you care about" then you are deffinitely playing the wrong class in my mind. And I think if anything is a "mark of a bad captain" it's one who thinks it's smart to sacrifice a huge amount of his dps just so he can throw a percent or two more on his out-going healing. That is such a silly thing to do IMHO, and a total waste of captain potential. The extra damage you would be doing with a 2-hander would be of far greater worth than w/e difference wearing that shield will do for your heals.
But play your captain like you want - just don't pretend the way you play it is somehow better or more efficient because it deffinitely isn't. There is absolutely nothing "inefficient" about using a 2 hander as a Hands of Healing Captain. I can promise you that.
I think someone's parsed it, but the DPS difference between two red traits and four or five + capstone is pretty significant (on the order of at least several hunderd, if not 600+ DPS).
You said it yourself, you're a HoH captain, and one that proudly slots the HoH capstone. You've already gimped your DPS so badly by your traiting, S&B v 2H isn't going to make a ton of difference at that point. At least the S&B route allows you very fine control over your passives (and shields are generally better than the 2H stats anyhow), at the cost of some more DPS - which means the ability to better tune yourself for better healing, since only tactical mastery, crit, power, and ICPR are the only stats that really matter with healing.
With how absurdly strong red build based healing is, I really don't see the value of going HoH outside of 3 mans and epic soloing. You lose too much DPS and other nice things for a fairly trivial increase in healing in the big scheme of things (thanks to a borked Song Brother, among other class issues).
Tanking wise, yes, S&B does help with survivability - but I can't say much more beyond theorycrafting and raw mechanics knowledge there. I think someone upthread already mentioned that it works well with LoM.
With how absurdly strong red build based healing is, I really don't see the value of going HoH outside of 3 mans and epic soloing.
Heck, I don't even see HOH for epic soloing. I used to use it for such (e.g. trying to solo SH @ 65). But really, the extra 4-500 DPS + revealing mark and the extra crits for RCs seems like it overshadows the HOH self heals?
Nah, I just don't agree with any of this post. It's silly if you ask me, and you highly over-estimate what wearing a shield will do for your heals. It is very neglible, and as I said before, if "healing is the only thing you care about" then you are deffinitely playing the wrong class in my mind. And I think if anything is a "mark of a bad captain" it's one who thinks it's smart to sacrifice a huge amount of his dps just so he can throw a percent or two more on his out-going healing. That is such a silly thing to do IMHO, and a total waste of captain potential. The extra damage you would be doing with a 2-hander would be of far greater worth than w/e difference wearing that shield will do for your heals.
But play your captain like you want - just don't pretend the way you play it is somehow better or more efficient because it deffinitely isn't. There is absolutely nothing "inefficient" about using a 2 hander as a Hands of Healing Captain. I can promise you that.
Yes play your cappy as you want but very gimpi raid lead that does more than T0 1-4 t1, says trait HoH or something or no raid cause he has no idea hoe to play cappy or he has an old image of cappys.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
I think someone's parsed it, but the DPS difference between two red traits and four or five + capstone is pretty significant (on the order of at least several hunderd, if not 600+ DPS).
You said it yourself, you're a HoH captain, and one that proudly slots the HoH capstone. You've already gimped your DPS so badly by your traiting, S&B v 2H isn't going to make a ton of difference at that point. At least the S&B route allows you very fine control over your passives (and shields are generally better than the 2H stats anyhow), at the cost of some more DPS - which means the ability to better tune yourself for better healing, since only tactical mastery, crit, power, and ICPR are the only stats that really matter with healing.
With how absurdly strong red build based healing is, I really don't see the value of going HoH outside of 3 mans and epic soloing. You lose too much DPS and other nice things for a fairly trivial increase in healing in the big scheme of things (thanks to a borked Song Brother, among other class issues).
Tanking wise, yes, S&B does help with survivability - but I can't say much more beyond theorycrafting and raw mechanics knowledge there. I think someone upthread already mentioned that it works well with LoM.
Almagnus, i really don't even know why i bother. YOu said captain dps was "pathetic" earlier, now you are saying playing captain dps is the only way to play unless you are doing 3 mans or soloing...
Yes play your cappy as you want but very gimpi raid lead that does more than T0 1-4 t1, says trait HoH or something or no raid cause he has no idea hoe to play cappy or he has an old image of cappys.
Well that's an entirely different issue.
Just let me be clear on this - in case I give that impression. Just because my comments are focused around Hands of Healing that doesn't mean I think other Captain traitlines aren't good. I just focus my comments around it because that's what I play and any Raid Leader who descriminates against captains simply because they aren't HoH isn't doing his group any favors.
I believe all styles of Captain bring a huge benefit to the group if played well.
Almagnus, i really don't even know why i bother. YOu said captain dps was "pathetic" earlier, now you are saying playing captain dps is the only way to play unless you are doing 3 mans or soloing...
I think I give up trying to understand you lol
Have to get this out of the way:
Knee-jerk reaction: Stop skimming and read.
Now for the real answer:
DPS for a captain scales heavily dependent upon how many LtC (aka red) traits you have slotted. If you are a full capstone based HoH build, you have at most 2 red traits, so the DPS goes from around 1.1k of a 5 LtC Capstone build to about 400-500 DPS - roughly one fourth of the DPS a true DPS class can put out. The DPS is so weak in that traiting that keeping it in mind is completely pointless.
Since a heavy red build can pick up a couple of HoH traits and get near HoH capstone healing (see: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ng-Comparisons for more info), I strongly believe that HoH is not putting out as much healing as it should - especially when you take into account the disconnect between what the HoH Capstone suggests the connection between HoH and Song Brother should be, and what is actually observed in game where Shield Brother is the better healing Brother skill.
As far as which traitline is best: While my personal favorite traitline is LtC, it reall depends on what you are doing - and despite what you think, I will change traits and/or gear to be more optimal for the task at hand. Captains are the putty that makes the group work, and anyone that forgets that on a captain is a noob.
Last edited by Almagnus1; May 03 2012 at 12:38 AM.
Difference in dps is very small with these two and only reason I would pick a 2H with these builds would be smaller power consumption if that becomes an issue.
2-H LtC doubles the damage to around 1100-1200 dps
All of these are sustained dps for over 3 min straight.
Anyway if you want to even remotely consider yourself as a tank you should use S&B. 2-handed tanking should be removed completely. Threat generation added (even with halberd) is next to unnoticeable and the stats from the shield are crucial to tanking, not so much to healing. But healing wise it's better to hit your skills faster and forget the damage because the difference there also, as stated above, is next to nothing. Hit your melee skills faster = more vocal healing with WoC.
I particularly despise HoH builds as I've evaluated the difference in both dps and healing performance between HoH and LtC builds. In many bosses LtC gives you more healing power in addition to that huge upgrade on dps. Blue traitline isn't nearly as worthy as the red one. This is wrong and needs to be revamped!
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Originally Posted by Fendrone
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) and make our melee heals proportional to those hits' damage. Broadsword for the win!
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