Thread: Quantifying The Healing Imbalance

Originally Posted by ksjock

I Has the skill been changed?

Yes. Level 75 cap brought multiple changes to healing RKs out in the Moors.

Oh look, anecdotal evidence that shows that creeps are OP compared to freeps!!

Originally Posted by Martigan

As for creeps getting a slap in the face, I witnessed 5 freeps trying to bring down a warg the other day an they couldnt. I've seen 10+ creeps keeping 20+ freeps bottled up in Tir. I've seen a predominantly red map with freeps being spam farmed in EC, Ive seen that as soon as Tol goes blue its instantly flipped back, I've been in several freep raids where we are mainly getting wiped all the time,I've seen my hunter squishier than ever with his noob audacity even though he has a full set of 75 pvp armour that took months to grind but is now totally useless.

...or maybe it's just anecdotal evidence to show that sometimes people run into opposition more skilled than they are, like every encounter provided in this thread.

Yes, there's a healing imbalance. Yes, freeps do more DPS, can heal better than creeps, and have better survivability skills for the most part. Although it's not easy to get accurate parses from either side, let alone parses under controlled conditions, at the very least could we try to focus on what parses are available and stop trying to use anecdotal examples of "my side played like muppets vs. an apparently organized group" as evidence?

Originally Posted by ksjock

Creep healers have no counter to induction set back. This alone puts them at a huge disadvantage.

It's funny because both Minstrels and RKs don't have to worry about this at all really.

So if we take your advice and the advice of the post a bit below you, then there is no point attacking anyone in that fellowship... Thank you for just making a great point about how OP some RK support skills are.

It can't really be that hard to understand can it?

That is actually relatively true. Between Cappy Bubbles, Word of Exaltation, Essay of Exaltation, etc, etc...there is no single good target for Creeps to pick. Throw in stuff like SI from LMs, Guard Shield Wall, Cappy IHW LS, etc etc...an organized Freep group can do things an organized Creep raid can't even dream of. The only comparative skill Creeps have is WL bubble, which is laughable. This is ignoring the DPS disparity too, which only makes it worse, the primary culprit here I'd say is AoE damage and group heals. Freeps have them, Creeps don't. A Death-storm Champ will wreck a Creep raid when properly supported...and what can you do? Certainly not kill him.

Originally Posted by ksjock

I have an RK, that I admit I haven't played in over 1.5 years, but at the time it was full fellowship and then there is this:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Trait..._Foreshadowing

Has the skill been changed?

Also, I'm well aware of how to play an RK and was main healing instances like the turtle and Dark Delving back when most people thought that RK's were a sub par healer compared to the mini. It is my understanding that after level cap 65 (where I left my RK) their ability to heal only got stronger.

Something else I forgot:

Freep heals have a chance to dev crit (I was told that the single target RK big heal has been known to Dev Crit for as much ad 13k)

It was raised by Nopain over a year ago that creep heals have no chance to Dev Crit.... Just one more thing to add to the list.

Hmm, idk that Dev heals exist in the game. I know Epic for the Ages can heal for monstrous numbers (10K+) but I don't think that is because it devs.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

That is actually relatively true. Between Cappy Bubbles, Word of Exaltation, Essay of Exaltation, etc, etc...there is no single good target for Creeps to pick. Throw in stuff like SI from LMs, Guard Shield Wall, Cappy IHW LS, etc etc...an organized Freep group can do things an organized Creep raid can't even dream of. The only comparative skill Creeps have is WL bubble, which is laughable. This is ignoring the DPS disparity too, which only makes it worse, the primary culprit here I'd say is AoE damage and group heals. Freeps have them, Creeps don't. A Death-storm Champ will wreck a Creep raid when properly supported...and what can you do? Certainly not kill him.

Something that Creeps who continue to play this game are going to have to live with i guess. I dont see these types of disparities ever changing tbh.

Quick fixes to help ameliorate the healing imbalance (whatever it is in real numbers) from a defiler's perspective:

1) Remove the induction for Fungal Bloom and 2) lessen the induction (1 sec?) and reduce the CD on Efflorescence and Fell Restoration.

Originally Posted by sunnycrest

Quick fixes to help ameliorate the healing imbalance (whatever it is in real numbers) from a defiler's perspective:

1) Remove the induction for Fungal Bloom and 2) lessen the induction (1 sec?) and reduce the CD on Efflorescence and Fell Restoration.

Buffing creep healing to size up against freeps is definitely not the answer to this problem. Neither side's healer should be more than capable of out-healing a full fellowship worth of DPS. Yes I'm aware that defilers wouldn't suddenly be able to do this, but the point still remains.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

A Death-storm Champ will wreck a Creep raid when properly supported...and what can you do? Certainly not kill him.

They renamed it to 'Improved Great Cleave', so it sucks now.

/cry

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

Buffing creep healing to size up against freeps is definitely not the answer to this problem. Neither side's healer should be more than capable of out-healing a full fellowship worth of DPS. Yes I'm aware that defilers wouldn't suddenly be able to do this, but the point still remains.

Unless I missed a post, there are no concrete numbers to flesh out the healing imbalance; and if the subtle changes I suggested put defilers in the same category as say, a single-target healing rk, then the imbalance is little more than a scarecrow.

And I should wonder at the point being made of a single freep healer out-healing a full creep fellowship worth of dps... either the opposing creeps are all low-rank and clueless, or just clueless.

Originally Posted by sunnycrest

Unless I missed a post, there are no concrete numbers to flesh out the healing imbalance; and if the subtle changes I suggested put defilers in the same category as say, a single-target healing rk, then the imbalance is little more than a scarecrow.

And I should wonder at the point being made of a single freep healer out-healing a full creep fellowship worth of dps... either the opposing creeps are all low-rank and clueless, or just clueless.

You tell him Healz

Rank 11 WL with + 5.25% dmg corruption traits and Brutal Persuasion, for +600 crit rating,
over 4 minutes using 50 heals, just using my normal rotation of Crack the Whip (1497.5) and Quit Whinning and Fight! (2051.2) followed again by Crack the Whip before I have the few second or so when heals are on CD before repeating the my 3 skill rotation.

Those 50 heals over 4 minutes averaged 365 morale healed per second, with the average heal being 1,765.8 (1,497-3,077). My crit chance is 13.3%, but only 10% of my 50 heals crit, not that bad. And being rank 11, Battlefield Promotion gives me an extra 10% dmg which also increases my heal output. If I were to throw in my other heals Quitters Never Win heals for 3,649.1 - 5,213 morale every 5m, or less when using other heals could bring it down to 2 or 3 minutes probably, and Get a Grip!, which heals for 3,649.1-5,213 morale every 3 minutes.

Using All of my healing skills over 4 minutes, or 55 skills total used Get a Grip! 2x and Quitters Never Win 3x, which crit once in addition to my normal skill rotation, I was able to increase my healing of (1,497 - 6,722) averaging 2,108.2 per heal and 479.0 morale/second. Though this time my crit % was 18.2%, so this is by far an 'optimal' situation, as this definitely won't happen in raid situations when moving around.

Other traits/skills used:
Commander's stance: +15% healing, - 25% heal inductions
Harsh Language: + 25% outgoing healing

Summary just 2 basic healing skills WLs get from r6 (commander's stance) or so to r8 = at best 365 morale/second.
Tricked out rank 11 WL using everything he's got = 479 morale/second with an amazing 18.2% crit rate.

Originally Posted by turleg

Rank 11 WL with + 5.25% dmg corruption traits and Brutal Persuasion, for +600 crit rating,
over 4 minutes using 50 heals, just using my normal rotation of Crack the Whip (1497.5) and Quit Whinning and Fight! (2051.2) followed again by Crack the Whip before I have the few second or so when heals are on CD before repeating the my 3 skill rotation.

Those 50 heals over 4 minutes averaged 365 morale healed per second, with the average heal being 1,765.8 (1,497-3,077). My crit chance is 13.3%, but only 10% of my 50 heals crit, not that bad. And being rank 11, Battlefield Promotion gives me an extra 10% dmg which also increases my heal output. If I were to throw in my other heals Quitters Never Win heals for 3,649.1 - 5,213 morale every 5m, or less when using other heals could bring it down to 2 or 3 minutes probably, and Get a Grip!, which heals for 3,649.1-5,213 morale every 3 minutes.

Using All of my healing skills over 4 minutes, or 55 skills total used Get a Grip! 2x and Quitters Never Win 3x, which crit once in addition to my normal skill rotation, I was able to increase my healing of (1,497 - 6,722) averaging 2,108.2 per heal and 479.0 morale/second. Though this time my crit % was 18.2%, so this is by far an 'optimal' situation, as this definitely won't happen in raid situations when moving around.

Other traits/skills used:
Commander's stance: +15% healing, - 25% heal inductions
Harsh Language: + 25% outgoing healing

Summary just 2 basic healing skills WLs get from r6 (commander's stance) or so to r8 = at best 365 morale/second.
Tricked out rank 11 WL using everything he's got = 479 morale/second with an amazing 18.2% crit rate.

It may be more meaningful to do this test with a full fellowship to benefit from AoE heals.

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

It may be more meaningful to do this test with a full fellowship to benefit from AoE heals.

It may be more meaningful to do this test with just one freep attacking the WL. Induction set back will reduce these already low numbers by at least 50% (if it's a burg traited right it would be more like 90%).

Creeps having no counter to induction set back, lower heals per second and only weak on the run heals is a recipe for very one sided group v's group encounters.

Originally Posted by ksjock

It may be more meaningful to do this test with just one freep attacking the WL. Induction set back will reduce these already low numbers by at least 50% (if it's a burg traited right it would be more like 90%).

Creeps having no counter to induction set back, lower heals per second and only weak on the run heals is a recipe for very one sided group v's group encounters.

We're talking about HPS tests; I'm fully aware of my WL's susceptibility to induction set-backs in Commander's Stance.

You mean there's this thing called variables that change the outcome of tests like this to favor people trying to oversimplify their point?

Originally Posted by Fapsintosocks

You mean there's this thing called variables that change the outcome of tests like this to favor people trying to oversimplify their point?

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

We're talking about HPS tests; I'm fully aware of my WL's susceptibility to induction set-backs in Commander's Stance.

Originally Posted by Sulfur

You mean there's this thing called variables that change the outcome of tests like this to favor people trying to oversimplify their point?

The funny part is, that even given these sterilized conditions (no disruption of heals), that WL didn't even outheal HALF the incoming damage from a geared freep dps.

At this point, it is just sad.

At which point you realize you're explaining an obvious point to people who either know and don't care or believe otherwise entirely and argue in hypotheticals.

This is what palantir is for, and I assume where testing and more qualified opinions (not really though) are explained.

Ergo wasting time here.

Bring creep healers down to light armor and morale levels of freep healers, and I'm all for buffing creep healing.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

Bring creep healers down to light armor and morale levels of freep healers, and I'm all for buffing creep healing.

Freep goggles at their best

Like the post above
L0L!

Originally Posted by lucky100x

Freep goggles at their best

What about it is freep goggles? How would you like having minstrels and runekeepers having 14k-18.5kish morale and having the healing output they currently have ALONG with heavy armor, higher mitigations and BPE? You want equality between creep and freep healing? pfft. Sounds like instead of wanting things to be even you want WLs and defilers to stay how they currently are but have the healing output of freeps. Yeah, THATS BALANCED!!!

Uneducated posters are uneducated.

Sounds like you need to rethink what is "balanced" sir.

LOL. honestly I've found that high ranked freeps don't want to talk about imbalance. They want to believe they have achieved something, that it was tough and that creeps are powerful. Which is funny because everytime i play my champ in the moors I don't understand how people can enjoy something so easy, let alone think it was an achievement other than spending time. To each their own I suppose.

Originally Posted by apb8808

LOL. honestly I've found that high ranked freeps don't want to talk about imbalance. They want to believe they have achieved something, that it was tough and that creeps are powerful. Which is funny because everytime i play my champ in the moors I don't understand how people can enjoy something so easy, let alone think it was an achievement other than spending time. To each their own I suppose.

Class differences aside, players can challenge themselves. Between my ranked reaver (which is mindless simpleton toil at its best, and is about as antiquated can be) versus my champion, my champ wins hands down as a more interesting class in general.

Easy to play doesn't mean the same thing as hard, however if you're running around in glory or blowing CD's on greenies I can see how you'd think that.

Originally Posted by Sulfur

Class differences aside, players can challenge themselves. Between my ranked reaver (which is mindless simpleton toil at its best, and is about as antiquated can be) versus my champion, my champ wins hands down as a more interesting class in general.

Easy to play doesn't mean the same thing as hard, however if you're running around in glory or blowing CD's on greenies I can see how you'd think that.

Fervour Champ since Pre-ROI. Without blowing CDs on even high ranks win far more than lose. Well aware of how powerful Glory is, solo'd quite a bit of content and saw how much of a joke it is.

Is a reaver antiquated, yes. "more intersting" of course the champ is, you get new skills non stop up till 75, while creeps in general have half the number abilities, not to mention 3 different class trait lines freeps have. Not sure where you were going with such an obvious statement.

Reaver is easy to play. Champ is easy to play. Which one is harder to be more successful at, is obvious to me, but its indicative of the world circumstances, such as healing imbalance.

Originally Posted by Sulfur

You mean there's this thing called variables that change the outcome of tests like this to favor people trying to oversimplify their point?

Oversimplify? All that adding these variables does is highlight how much worse off creep healers have it. There is only two things (variables) to add for creep healing, once engaged with a freep that only uses their face 1/2 the time in their skill rotation:

1) Get WL's to drop their healing stance and significantly nerf their healing output (trade off)

2) Have the WL stop healing and start DPSing (shouts) to get a crit for an instant heal. Less time healing = lower HPS (trade off)

You might add 3) movement but if you're moving you're not healing very well (another trade off)

Freep healers in combat situations give up very little to still be able to dish out close to 100% of their maximum HPS even though they are being attacked (having ones cake and eating it too)

If you want to talk variables fine but it paints an even worse picture for creep healers.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

Bring creep healers down to light armor and morale levels of freep healers, and I'm all for buffing creep healing.

And what would do then about the massive DPS inequality between the two sides? Hmm conveniently " forgot" about that... Oops.

How is it uneducated to question why the same side has the highest HPS and DPS while the other side has the lowest? Also Freeps can reach much higher moral totals than creeps. I've also been seeing raid buffed Mini's and RK's running with greater than 10k moral and 8k power pools this book and their crit chance is through the roof, 2 out of every 3 hits seems to be a crit (so it's safe to assume that their healing will be critting the same) That is hardly what I'd call low moral or squishy.



This is how the Moors works for Freeps:

You can have high DPS, high HPS, high survivability (due to oh #### skills on shot CD) and high crit chance but if you want high moral you will need to trade off a little of the other things but don't worry all the above will still be significantly better than creeps (cake and eat it)

This is how the Moors works for creeps:

You can have high moral, high mitigations or high DPS and HPS (but still ridiculously low compared to Freep DPS and HPS). Now pick which two you want.

The combat system in this game was once all about trading off one thing for another and the skill was finding the right balance. As the game had "improved" one side has needed to forgo less (have their cake and eat it) while the other side still needs to strike a balance.

Tl;dr

Turbine has invested their development time simplifying game play for the Freeps and therefore lessening the actual skill required to set up and play your freep class. This is true for both PvE and PvP. I think Turbine have worked out that most freeps aren’t looking for a big challenge in this game (both in PvE and PvP) and those who are will nerf themself to find it.

While creep side had seen some development it still centers around the old idea that a player must strike a balance. This keeps the creeps weak enough for most of the freeps and a challenging fight for those freeps who are willing to not use CD's (or spam heal in WS) to win at all costs. This is fine in 1v1's but in GvG or RvR no one will ever let a team mate die because they realise that to use some skills would be ridiculously imbalanced.

Hence we have a very unbalanced Moors Right now.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

What about it is freep goggles? How would you like having minstrels and runekeepers having 14k-18.5kish morale and having the healing output they currently have ALONG with heavy armor, higher mitigations and BPE? You want equality between creep and freep healing? pfft. Sounds like instead of wanting things to be even you want WLs and defilers to stay how they currently are but have the healing output of freeps. Yeah, THATS BALANCED!!!

Uneducated posters are uneducated.

Sounds like you need to rethink what is "balanced" sir.

Freeps still have a massive dps advantage over creepside. That's all I'll add.

and also that hyperbole doesn't equate to an 'educated' response (lullll)
Adding that too

Originally Posted by aad0italian

What about it is freep goggles? How would you like having minstrels and runekeepers having 14k-18.5kish morale and having the healing output they currently have ALONG with heavy armor, higher mitigations and BPE? You want equality between creep and freep healing? pfft. Sounds like instead of wanting things to be even you want WLs and defilers to stay how they currently are but have the healing output of freeps. Yeah, THATS BALANCED!!!

Uneducated posters are uneducated.

Sounds like you need to rethink what is "balanced" sir.

Someone doesn't want to lose easy mode in RvR.

Freep dps in RvR melts through WL's and their 20k morale in under 3 seconds. Have you tried bringing down a minstrel with 10k morale that has captains and perhaps even a shield wall to support it? Sure, sync 10 vt's and it will die. But then it will get rezzed immediately.

WL's for sure need a healing boost, and a large one. Defilers not so much, I would like them to get another hot though, that adds the stacking bonus +5% tactical and physical mitigation.

Perhaps ever rank of battlefield promotion adds +3-5% outgoing healing for a start.

You are talking of minstrels and rk's being squishy, I assure you, war-leaders and defilers are MUCH easier to kill in RvR then freep healers. Don't even get started on captains.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

What about it is freep goggles? How would you like having minstrels and runekeepers having 14k-18.5kish morale and having the healing output they currently have ALONG with heavy armor, higher mitigations and BPE? You want equality between creep and freep healing? pfft. Sounds like instead of wanting things to be even you want WLs and defilers to stay how they currently are but have the healing output of freeps. Yeah, THATS BALANCED!!!

Uneducated posters are uneducated.

Sounds like you need to rethink what is "balanced" sir.

My Mins is much harder to take down than any WL or Defiler. Creeps have higher mits and morale to pretend to balance out the damage disparity (they don't) so reducing WL and Defiler mits to Freep light armor class levels...while hypothetically giving them the exact same healing and utility skills...the balance would remain heavily in favor of the Freeps. Because they still hit/CC/debuff harder.

Creeps on the left, Freeps on the right when it comes to discussing the healing imbalance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

Originally Posted by apb8808

Creeps on the left, Freeps on the right when it comes to discussing the healing imbalance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

Excuse me, just because as a freep I can DPS, mitigate, CC, debuff and heal more than creeps, it does not make pvp unbalanced.

They have more health than me.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Creeps on the left, Freeps on the right when it comes to discussing the healing imbalance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

\thread won.

I still find it really hard that freep pvpers still wont admit how stronger and OP classes are compared to creeps
I understand that freeps must be strong due to pve cause i play freep too and i would say too much
ppl must step foward and accept that ettenmoors fight are imbalanced completely.
There are some pvpers freeps asking to balance things in the beta forums....some...freep goggles should go read em and accept some facts....jesus its 5 years guys.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Excuse me, just because as a freep I can DPS, mitigate, CC, debuff and heal more than creeps, it does not make pvp unbalanced.

They have more health than me.

Health is irrelevant when you have survivability skills that reduce incoming damage / morale bubbles / self healing capabilities.

Almost every freep class you fight 1v1 has abilities to soak up more morale than an entire creeps morale pool. When you get a group/raid fight it's even worse because their group synergy becomes even stronger while creeps are left with an induction healing defiler and a WL with awful heals and one bubble.

Originally Posted by Commish

Health is irrelevant when you have survivability skills that reduce incoming damage / morale bubbles / self healing capabilities.

Almost every freep class you fight 1v1 has abilities to soak up more morale than an entire creeps morale pool. When you get a group/raid fight it's even worse because their group synergy becomes even stronger while creeps are left with an induction healing defiler and a WL with awful heals and one bubble.

Sarcasm is lost on this one.