Right now, healing is imbalanced between freeps and creeps. It is heavily weighted in the favor of freeps.
Having finally gotten enough data I'd love to share a little comparison.
In the creep corner, we have a rank 12 defiler. Fully traited for healing, even running a pair of mastery traits to increase healing output without lowering the power pool or morale.
In the freep corner, we have a highly geared out RK with an appropriately set up first age rock and satchel, also traited for healing.
Defiler single target healing output: 790 morale healed per second
RK single target healing output: 1760
So, with the help of audacity, a defiler can basically outheal a single target (exception: Defilers struggle mightily to outheal lightning burst DPS).
With the help of audacity, a single RK can easily outheal 5 reavers worth of dps.
This really needs to be addressed.
Creep healers need improvements, especially to their ability to function while under any sort of focus fire (hint: both freep healers can situationally ignore induction setbacks).
Freep heals need to be adjusted down lower upon entering the moors through the monsterplay buff.
Each side's main healer when ranked/geared needs to be able to heal through the same number of DPS classes worth of DPS if you are even going to attempt to balance larger scale fights.
And you ARE going to ATTEMPT to balance larger scale fights, aren't you?
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
While I do acknowledge creep healing is far worse than freep healing, can you please post these numbers? I'm sure you used Combat Analysis plugin or one very similar to it. I'd like to actually see the data or a screenshot of the different series of tests you ran to come to these numbers.
While I do acknowledge creep healing is far worse than freep healing, can you please post these numbers? I'm sure you used Combat Analysis plugin or one very similar to it. I'd like to actually see the data or a screenshot of the different series of tests you ran to come to these numbers.
I will contact the people who sent me parses/numbers and see about getting screenshots. I imagine Nopain took some (she's very thorough like that).
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
If a creep class was to have equal HPS to a squishy freep class, I would imagine the creep class would be equally squishy? If so, I'd be all for it.
Define equally squishy.
Are you talking morale differential? Because the built in DPS disparity already takes care of that.
I'm not sure what you mean; having high self healing tends to make one "not-squishy". Really the only weakness an RK healer has is disarm, and that is easily overcome with support classes actually supporting.
Originally Posted by distillered
I heal on Elendilmir quite often and pre-update 6 I could tank 3-5 creeps easily without trying. This time I can tank twice those numbers, literally, with that mending verse on the run. I just put up the Armour of Frost to slow people hitting me while I kite for 10s and it was no problem whatsoever keeping myself up
^ That is not what I would call "squishy".
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
Are you talking morale differential? Because the built in DPS disparity already takes care of that.
I'm not sure what you mean; having high self healing tends to make one "not-squishy". Really the only weakness an RK healer has is disarm, and that is easily overcome with support classes actually supporting.
^ That is not what I would call "squishy".
If you've watched a freep healer try to spar a freep dps, then you would perhaps agree having the extra mits/morale/debuffs that a wl/defiler have isn't the worst tradeoff for less HPS.
The defilers I've grouped with have regularly survived for a considerable length of time with 5-6 freep dps on them. Of course, they only managed this due to poor play on the part of the freeps, but creeps often play just as poorly.
If anything, just orient creep dps away from dots and more towards burst dps and that should be enough.
Right now, healing is imbalanced between freeps and creeps. It is heavily weighted in the favor of freeps.
Having finally gotten enough data I'd love to share a little comparison.
In the creep corner, we have a rank 12 defiler. Fully traited for healing, even running a pair of mastery traits to increase healing output without lowering the power pool or morale.
In the freep corner, we have a highly geared out RK with an appropriately set up first age rock and satchel, also traited for healing.
Defiler single target healing output: 790 morale healed per second
RK single target healing output: 1760
So, with the help of audacity, a defiler can basically outheal a single target (exception: Defilers struggle mightily to outheal lightning burst DPS).
With the help of audacity, a single RK can easily outheal 5 reavers worth of dps.
This really needs to be addressed.
I agree here, I have a mid-ranked Defiler and a well-geared RK and I´m seeing the same issue
Originally Posted by Sezneg
Creep healers need improvements, especially to their ability to function while under any sort of focus fire (hint: both freep healers can situationally ignore induction setbacks).
Freep heals need to be adjusted down lower upon entering the moors through the monsterplay buff.
Yes Creep Healer need improvements and yes, especially under focus fire. Minstrels can trait BC to have no setback and their bubble makes them completly immune for 30s every 1min. RKs are completly immune after they use Fates Entwined.
I don´t agree that Freep Healing needs to be lowered, I´d rather have Creep Healing as good as Freep Healing. I´m all for equally overpowered Healing on both sides as it makes people actually bring their Healers to the Moors and not everyone goes full DPS. (I hate those WS Minstrels who think they have to DPS when there are already several RKs and Hunters around). That´s just my opinion, other people might like less Healing.
Originally Posted by Sezneg
Each side's main healer when ranked/geared needs to be able to heal through the same number of DPS classes worth of DPS if you are even going to attempt to balance larger scale fights.
And you ARE going to ATTEMPT to balance larger scale fights, aren't you?
I´d attempt to balance 1vs1, group vs group and raid vs raid. We shouldn´t think of just one of them, all 3 are important parts of Moors gameplay.
That´s the problem with increasing the Defiler´s Healing. They are already very strong in 1vs1, making them heal more, will make them impossible to defeat. The combination of their healing, virtually endless power (Improved Flies regenerate enough power to heal yourself up against damage from one opponent) and an extremly strong power drain make a good a Defiler with full Audacity almost impossible to beat. They´ll loose to DPS RKs. But apart from that I believe most match ups are in the Defilers favour.
Maybe make the +10% Healing from the trait passive and replace it with: "All induction heals that are not used on the Defiler himself are immune to setback from damage"
WLs should get instant heals from all their shouts, not just crits, when traited. And they need their cooldowns lowered. The small single target heal should have no cd and the 10s cd group heal between 7 and 8s.
Maybe Stances for Defilers could solve the problem. A Healing Stance and a CC/Damage Stance. In Healing Stance Flies (and maybe some debuffs) are disabled and Healing increased by 50%. CC/DPS Stance Efflorescence, Fungel Spores and Fell Restoration disabled. All Curses -1s induction. All Gourds -1s induction (=no induction when traited). +20% Damage
No stance dancing allowed, to prevent using Flies, then go to Healing Stance, then using Flies again, because that would be impossible to beat in a 1vs1
Just want to add that the problem definitely isn't creep healing lacking potency; but rather freep healing being incredibly out of proportion to creep DPS.
It's honestly disturbing how some people need hard data to be convinced at such imbalance.
Not a matter of needing hard data, it's simply matter of cutting through all the QQ. The amount of hyperbole that players post is obscene.
If someone is posting "data" at least show the screen shot to show you didn't just make up numbers, which most people do.
Hey!
I saw a defiler tank 24 man raid and have 5678 HPS
Then I saw a healing RK get soloed by a greenie reaver and have 112 HPS
No screen shot of course, but you can add that to your data pool, right?
/sarcasm off
What i think is funny is that when asked for a SS you never get one yet the thread goes 15+ pages based on the "facts" presented. With that said, the the OPs numbers do look about where I "think" they are, which is unbalanced.
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
Not a matter of needing hard data, it's simply matter of cutting through all the QQ. The amount of hyperbole that players post is obscene.
If someone is posting "data" at least show the screen shot to show you didn't just make up numbers, which most people do.
Hey!
I saw a defiler tank 24 man raid and have 5678 HPS
Then I saw a healing RK get soloed by a greenie reaver and have 112 HPS
No screen shot of course, but you can add that to your data pool, right?
/sarcasm off
What i think is funny is that when asked for a SS you never get one yet the thread goes 15+ pages based on the "facts" presented. With that said, the the OPs numbers do look about where I "think" they are, which is unbalanced.
It's not a matter of what I am able to type.
If anyone was actually to be serious about PvP, there is absolutely no way they can miss it. It's literally impossible. Whether they admit it or not is another issue altogether.
While I do acknowledge creep healing is far worse than freep healing, can you please post these numbers? I'm sure you used Combat Analysis plugin or one very similar to it. I'd like to actually see the data or a screenshot of the different series of tests you ran to come to these numbers.
Here it goes. I healed myself for a period of 30 seconds, so i can benefit from all healing skills available and tried to maximaze my rotation. Im a vet Defiler, so i think i know my class pretty well. This being said, theres always room to improve and always someone somewhere that know more than you do, so feel free to give any advise if it fit.
Now, for the testing conditions ==>
1- I slotted all 6 Mastery to benefit from maximum healing output bonus, which is 16.1%.
2- I tested over a period of 30 seconds and divided the total healing output by 30, to get my HPS.
3- Absolutly no buff whatsoever.
Now, to the result ==>
1- I healed for 23751 total for a 30 sec period, which divided by 30 sec mean a total of 792 HPS
2- I critted 8 times
3- I opened up with *Fungal Spore*, to get the +15% healing output bonus from the skill right at the bat for 30 sec
4- Once all my skills out, i kept spamming *Fungal Bloom*, to get the benefit from the initial healing , which is between 762-1024 morale, which is superior of just having the tick of the skill running (about half the value).
Granted, those results are made out of OPTIMAL testing conditions. You probably wont be able to reproduce those in the heat of battle, while a bunch of factors will come to disrupt you (burg harrassment/addle, heavies charging in and interupting you, CC of all sort ect...).
Under raid vs raid fighting conditions, i would say i can pull out about half this value, due to the disrupting factors listed above.
Last edited by whitefox1313; Apr 23 2012 at 09:09 AM.
There's some data on this topic. On my warleader in typical combat healing a raid, I will average ~250 HPS (yes that's including healing 6 people with AoE heals). In 'test' conditions simply healing one other person, I can burst up to 600 HPS over a minute by burning both 3 and 15 minute cooldowns in commander stance, 330 HPS in commander's stance doing a full rotation of non cooldowns, and 240 HPS in brawler's stance doing the same.
Realize that unless the freep group is pretty bad and there's no NPCs around, WL's are forced to run in brawler for about everything.
Not a matter of needing hard data, it's simply matter of cutting through all the QQ. The amount of hyperbole that players post is obscene.
If someone is posting "data" at least show the screen shot to show you didn't just make up numbers, which most people do.
Hey!
I saw a defiler tank 24 man raid and have 5678 HPS
Then I saw a healing RK get soloed by a greenie reaver and have 112 HPS
No screen shot of course, but you can add that to your data pool, right?
/sarcasm off
What i think is funny is that when asked for a SS you never get one yet the thread goes 15+ pages based on the "facts" presented. With that said, the the OPs numbers do look about where I "think" they are, which is unbalanced.
The reason I do not yet have screenshots is that I have to bug the people who did parses to dig them up, and if they did not take them... I have to ask them to redo the parses.
It was difficult enough to get numbers from people. I had several freep healers literally decline because they did NOT want this to come to light. You think I'm kidding...
The name is blocked out to protect the identity of that rk, and that's NOT the only such reply along those lines I received. This one takes the cake because they were initially interested in helping.
To those worried about 1v1 balance: try sparring a healing RK on any class. Only other healing classes can manage to turn it into a stale mate, all other classes will lose to the slow steady stacking of writ of fire while not being able to put a dent in the RK.
I would rather see freep healing reduced with slight increases to creep healer effectiveness under focus fire. I think combat would be boring if both sides had healers as powerful as freep healers are right now.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
1- I slotted all 6 Mastery to benefit from maximum healing output bonus, which is 16.1%.
Actually, if you're going for pure dps for healing benefits, a Damage for something 2 (DfH2 or DfP2) will give you more damage than a mastery. So the most damage you can get is from 4 masteries, damage for health 2, and damage for power 2.
Actually, if you're going for pure dps for healing benefits, a Damage for something 2 (DfH2 or DfP2) will give you more damage than a mastery. So the most damage you can get is from 4 masteries, damage for health 2, and damage for power 2.
Yes, i know, i tried this built for a while. I used 6 mastery specificly for testing purpuse, since its the optimal healing output corruption setup.
I usually run with 4 mastery and HfP 2/HfD 2 for greater survivability with good HpS.
***Back on topic***
The resistance encountered from minstrels players dont surprise me, since they are well aware this would help justify a nerf. And no players want/like his favourite class being toned down. I can understand that.
Im ok with current freeps DPS and healing staying the same IF WL/defilers get some significant healing/class update and an accross the board creep DPS increase, with the notable exception of wargs. They are in a very good spot right now and dont need more.
Last edited by whitefox1313; Apr 23 2012 at 10:18 AM.
Thanks for posting those #s. It's actually really interesting comparing these two classes considering both are HoT healers...Off the bat defilers do have the upperhand seeing as their heals have no tiering up need (rk attunement). But once they get some attunement up, yea rk will absolutely rock. I wish someone from my old server would post here, he has both a r10 defiler and r10 rk that probably heals 90% of the time. He pulls off miracles when it comes to rk healing, making his small groups seemingly invincible.
Thanks for posting those #s. It's actually really interesting comparing these two classes considering both are HoT healers...Off the bat defilers do have the upperhand seeing as their heals have no tiering up need (rk attunement). But once they get some attunement up, yea rk will absolutely rock. I wish someone from my old server would post here, he has both a r10 defiler and r10 rk that probably heals 90% of the time. He pulls off miracles when it comes to rk healing, making his small groups seemingly invincible.
I see you have a minstrel.
Perhaps you could run a parse for them? Not a single minstrel was willing to run a healing parse for this comparison.
I hope to have a commander stance WL soon. They're a bit of a headache, since shout crits have such a powerful effect on their output. Captains I'm flat out not sure how to conduct a fair parse. Assuming a defeat response EVERY 6 seconds would maximize their output, but is that realistic? Probably not.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
This is a rather simple comparison. Just make note of your gear levels, and heal yourself for ~5 minutes. Post the resulting number.
The two data points in the original post are paired because they are both the top range encountered. Both players were maxed out (Nopain is one of only a handful of rank 12+ defilers in existence, the RK was decked out and buffed with tokens, crit buff etc).
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
The hps generated by minstrels can differ hugely depending on fellowship composition and conditions. No SI and suffering from setback and HPS will be be dismal. SI and Bubble and HPS could be redonkulous.
Insta-cast on the move HoTs that stack can be more potent in a fights than big heals with long inductions that root the cast.
There's more to look at than just the numbers. Again, as stated earlier there is a definite healing advantage for freeps.
Since the games inception (5 years now!) Freeps have an advantage in:
CC
Heals
DPS
Creeps have the advantage in:
Population.
In other words, creeps are getting and probably will continue to get the shaft when you're doing 1v1/side-by-side comparisons because those comparisons don't factor in open PvP situations.
Last edited by doug01; Apr 23 2012 at 03:35 PM.
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
Healing 1 other, max healing
Healing 1 other, non-big cooldowns
Healing raid in actual combat
I've been watching my HPS in raid fights and it's pretty consistent, the only variation is if I get an opportunity to go to commander's stance or if i'm stuck in brawler the whole time (which is the usual case)
I did some testing of my own tonight using nearly the same conditions Bio did.
Traits - 4 mastery, DfP2 & HfP2. Not the optimal setup but its what I run with
30 sec test, turned on time stamps in chat, started healing rotation then added up 30 secs worth & divided by 30 for Hps.
I tried a few different rotations but it seemed to be the higher Hps runs were dictacted by more crits. I used fell restoration once per try but it never crited.
I didn't take screenshots but as these figures fit in with other defilers then I guess there was no real need.
5 runs - lowest was 721 Hps, Highest was 837 Hps.
Optimal setup, real world this isn't going to happen as 3 of our heals have inductions.
A few nights ago I was in a 6 man group & we had to beat a fighting retreat so I was spamming heals left right & centre. It was one of those ( rare ) times when Efflorescence hit every member of the group every time i used it. For the few minute skirmish we had I remember combat analysis ( forgot a screenshot unfortunately ) reported a Hps of just over 1200. Pretty rare I'm sure as I was left alone fairly well so able to get some nice induction heals off.
The hps generated by minstrels can differ hugely depending on fellowship composition and conditions. No SI and suffering from setback and HPS will be be dismal. SI and Bubble and HPS could be redonkulous.
Insta-cast on the move HoTs that stack can be more potent in a fights than big heals with long inductions that root the cast.
There's more to look at than just the numbers. Again, as stated earlier there is a definite healing advantage for freeps.
Since the games inception (5 years now!) Freeps have an advantage in:
CC
Heals
DPS
Creeps have the advantage in:
Population.
In other words, creeps are getting and probably will continue to get the shaft when you're doing 1v1/side-by-side comparisons because those comparisons don't factor in open PvP situations.
Thats the problem, in a raid vs raid both sides tend to have equal ( or close to equal) numbers so to say that creeps have an advantage in numbers is no longer a valid argument. Like a poster before me I think that if you increase both defiler/wl effectiveness in a stance while limiting there dps can help sway the balance. WL right now are not that effective of a support class. The healing burst is limited to long easily interrupted inductions, and the only strong heal wl have is on a long cd. When in brawler stance they have no induciton on one of there heals but it's healing output is reduced. Honestly turbine dug themselves into a deep hole with pvmp, hard to see how balance can be achieved. But a good start to balancing is by removing store pots!!!! and if not at least remove stun immunity, seriously this has only a negative impact on pvmp.(sorry for getting off topic )
Okay, lets see those results and how/where it was done. I highly doubt those numbers are Moors relevant.
Also, defilers can drain a vast amount of power from freeps now which combined with other creepside tools greatly lowers the effectiveness of a freep force. Comparing hps vs hps when these classes have other areas they excel in starts turning the discussion of hps vs hps into apples vs oranges. Not to mention how well can various classes sustain the HPS when being focused or interrupted etc.
Again, a strict comparison of hps vs hps in a bias controlled environment is going be apples n oranges results
Last edited by timmyloo22546; Apr 23 2012 at 08:49 PM.
Okay, lets see those results and how/where it was done. I highly doubt those numbers are Moors relevant.
Also, defilers can drain a vast amount of power from freeps now which combined with other creepside tools greatly lowers the effectiveness of a freep force. Comparing hps vs hps when these classes have other areas they excel in starts turning the discussion of hps vs hps into apples vs oranges. Not to mention how well can various classes sustain the HPS when being focused or interrupted etc.
Again, a strict comparison of hps vs hps in a bias controlled environment is going be apples n oranges results
1. Improved flies are bugged and completely bypassing all damage reduction (mitigation and audacity). I will bet you the deletion of my spider to the deletion of your RK that this will be addressed in update 7.
2. Morale per Second values are very much a valid comparison, once proper baselines are applied. That is why I am talking about this in terms of "Number of DPS players Healed"; if the goal is to seek balance for the moors, both sides main healers need to be able to heal the same amount relative to the incoming dps their groupmates receive.
If I could just sum up your post graphically:
You are presented with a HUGE apple
And a very small orange
And are waving your hands like mad trying to tell us there is no comparison we can draw between the two... which is just sad really.
No one is expecting a fine tuned balance to come out of this comparison, but we can certainly get things a HELL of a lot closer.
"Spiders CC is unbearable... it's just as bad as loremasters" ~ Brodster
Granted, those results are made out of OPTIMAL testing conditions. You probably wont be able to reproduce those in the heat of battle, while a bunch of factors will come to disrupt you (burg harrassment/addle, heavies charging in and interupting you, CC of all sort ect...).
Under raid vs raid fighting conditions, i would say i can pull out about half this value, due to the disrupting factors listed above.
Its good to see the numbers but just to point out, other factors are something to be thought about for both sides. RKs do have some insane healing right now, I think its sad because I'll be in groups where I'm healing and minnies end up DPSing. Definitely throws me for a loop. Whats with defilers and heal aggro though? Sorry, that question was off topic, it just popped into my head while we were talking healing and I thought about fights today. I think that creeps need an increase personally in DPS in some areas and an increase in healing relative to the damage being received. Though looking at the numbers straight when there are so many factors (audacity, mits etc) and differences to each side makes you wonder where the changes should come.
Last edited by Ames; Apr 23 2012 at 11:38 PM.
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans
1. Improved flies are bugged and completely bypassing all damage reduction (mitigation and audacity). I will bet you the deletion of my spider to the deletion of your RK that this will be addressed in update 7.
2. Morale per Second values are very much a valid comparison, once proper baselines are applied. That is why I am talking about this in terms of "Number of DPS players Healed"; if the goal is to seek balance for the moors, both sides main healers need to be able to heal the same amount relative to the incoming dps their groupmates receive.
1. Regular flies still drain a fair amount of power. Plus U7 isn't going happen soon so the bug is still relevant to the Moors during this time.
2. If your creeps actually learned how to coordinate the tools available to prevent freeps from doing godly amounts of heals then the numbers would be closer than what you're making it out to be.
This is a rather simple comparison. Just make note of your gear levels, and heal yourself for ~5 minutes. Post the resulting number.
The two data points in the original post are paired because they are both the top range encountered. Both players were maxed out (Nopain is one of only a handful of rank 12+ defilers in existence, the RK was decked out and buffed with tokens, crit buff etc).
But still, no controls. This is the reason I didn't participate when a well-respected creep on my server told us about the test. Because it isn't designed to actually test anything with any controls in place, which you need to have it show anything at all. I could have sat in Galtrev and healed for 30 seconds with no power issues and no interruptions. What does that even show for the purposes of what you're trying to quantify?
Why not ask people to parse DURING actual PvMP? Then, set up the trait lines/corruption guidelines and baseline gear requirements, as well as skills that should be used/not used during the parse. Anything that attempts to simulate realistic healing conditions in combat. A RK left alone to heal is going to parse higher than a minstrel if they know what they're doing; a minstrel left alone to heal will be able to put out some impressive numbers if they're traited for crit healing, shorter inductions and short anthem CDs to keep up AotTA. This is not news but it's not the reality of healing in PvMP for either side's healers. It doesn't matter that X class can overheal a target. If the target doesn't need that much healing, the amount is irrelevant.
The devs KNOW how much both sides heal and they attempt balance on the realities of the Moors - which includes major factors like faction population and class design. You can't even begin to compare a WL to a minstrel or a RK. Of course they can't put out as much healing - look at what they're designed to do.
So with all that said, I guess I am still not understanding what you think the devs don't know...We don't have mirrored factions so balance is not going to be based on healing output - it's going to be based on pan-issues like population, mobility, and class design, no? I'm not trying to be discouraging, just trying to understand. If anything with audacity, healing is too powerful across the board on both sides. Shouldn't we start with getting more parity in DPS from creeps?
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
Of course they can't put out as much healing - look at what they're designed to do.
Yes, creep healers aren't designed to heal like minstrels and runekeepers and captains are.
Currently, the design is ####ed up, and people want something done about it. What's your point?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your post seems as if it actually has a justifying tone to it.
I also believe in a previous thread one of the creeps part of running the show said they were trying to gather uninterrupted numbers before they add negative control (Which, freeps still have the best of both worlds on that topic too).
Yes, creep healers aren't designed to heal like minstrels and runekeepers and captains are.
Currently, the design is ####ed up, and people want something done about it. What's your point?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your post seems as if it actually has a justifying tone to it.
I also believe in a previous thread one of the creeps part of running the show said they were trying to gather uninterrupted numbers before they add negative control (Which, freeps still have the best of both worlds on that topic too).
I think you completly misunderstood him. Seems to me like Creeps and Freeps talk in a different language:-D.
What he meant is, you can´t compare WLs to RKs or Minstrels in terms of HPS as they aren´t designed as main healing class. Wls are a mix between Captain and Guardian. You should treat them that way and compare them to Captains in terms of HPS.
I think you completly misunderstood him. Seems to me like Creeps and Freeps talk in a different language:-D.
What he meant is, you can´t compare WLs to RKs or Minstrels in terms of HPS as they aren´t designed as main healing class. Wls are a mix between Captain and Guardian. You should treat them that way and compare them to Captains in terms of HPS.
I know, I'm being a troll for the most part here, but nonetheless, I'm still getting my intended message across.
My highest ranked toon is a freep, and it is so blatantly obvious the advantage we have over creeps, it actually makes me cringe to see people defend such obvious imbalances.
How some can PvP for over 1million worth of renown without realising this is beyond me entirely.
I know, I'm being a troll for the most part here, but nonetheless, I'm still getting my intended message across.
My highest ranked toon is a freep, and it is so blatantly obvious the advantage we have over creeps, it actually makes me cringe to see people defend such obvious imbalances.
How some can PvP for over 1million worth of renown without realising this is beyond me entirely.
Then you didn't read at all.
GG
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
The obviousness was not towards you in particular.
Read any of the threads in the last few MP forum pages, you'll see a people like that who look to just simply have no idea.
EDIT:Please ignore my useless banter, I'll stop derailing and we should get back on topic.
The realtime pvp effectiveness of those heals won't really change the difference imbalance between the factions.
There are plenty of feasable things freeps can do to stop harrasement of their healers, some of the more notorious methods used in such a way that creeps cannot fairly counter, while creeps cannot counter harrasement as well without the more preciously devoted resources needed/more suitable elsewhere in realtime.
While it would be more accurate to get realtime PvP parses of heals (which I am sure the team looking into it will document appropriately when able) it does not change the capability difference when left unchecked.
The uninterrupted numbers I'm sure, speak for itself about realtime PvP difference, and I honestly don't think there will be anything surprising about it shows.
Not to mention, realtime parses vary on tactics and what not, and is more-so completely situational on the fight. Not many people are all that big on pre-organized fights for similar reasoning.
Thats the problem, in a raid vs raid both sides tend to have equal ( or close to equal) numbers so to say that creeps have an advantage in numbers is no longer a valid argument.
I agree, when creep v freep raids end up a matched numbers creeps are at a disadvantage. Do you really think having equal numbers is the norm? On the best servers right now, on average creep outnumbered freeps 4:3 and most serves its closer to 3:2. Now factor in a fight were 16 creeps of a mixed build run into 12 freeps of a mixed build with average players and that is going to be a pretty balanced fight, maybe even an advantage toward creeps.
Trying to balance the classes/factions without considering populations is a poor way to design open PvP. If the designers of this game are shooting for a 1:1 balance per faction then they really need to introduce instanced PvP. IMO, as long as creeps enjoy a significant population advantage they will suffer a significant disadvantage in 1:1 comparisons.
Let me ask this. Do you think the population disparity between freeps and creeps would get better or worse if, on average, 1 creep = 1 freep? You'd probably start seeing servers where creeps out number freeps better than 2:1 and being that 1 creep = 1 freep it would simply be creeps farming freeps 24/7.
IMO, when "balancing" Open PvP you must consider population imbalances as well as class dynamics. It sucks for those that like to find even numbered fights and challenge themselves, but in LOTRO that's an oxymoron. You want a challenge in a 1v1, roll a weaker solo freep class and find a good player creep side on a stronger creep class. Or, you can simple accept the current reality and match your freep group up to a creep group that is large enough to bring that challenge (IMO thats about a 3:2 ratio on average which also happens to be ~the population ratio.).
TL;DR: As long a creeps outnumber freeps creeps HPS will be less, IMO and the game history indicates as much.
Last edited by doug01; Apr 24 2012 at 09:54 AM.
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
2. If your creeps actually learned how to coordinate the tools available to prevent freeps from doing godly amounts of heals then the numbers would be closer than what you're making it out to be.
Please Master, teach me how to use those famous tools you are refering to. When a single healer can outheal a veteran creep raid focus fire and have back-up from several other healers in his freep raid (minstrels/captains/other rks), how are we supposed to play?
Teach me this superior tactic of yours, since im a humble noob that have no clue about the Moors.
Teach me the way of Godmoding my Lord...
Originally Posted by doug01
IMO, when "balancing" Open PvP you must consider population imbalances as well as class dynamics. It sucks for those that like to find even numbered fights and challenge themselves, but in LOTRO that's an oxymoron.
Excellent point. I cannot speak for other servers but on Landroval, theres a population pattern: While week days morning afternoon are Creep heavy/Freep light, things tend to even out in the evening, with Creeps keeping a slight advantage. During weekend, things are reversed: Freeps heavy during daytime with things tending to even in the evening with Freeps keeping a slight advantage .
How can you balance this? Its simply impossible, outside of an instance system.
Last edited by whitefox1313; Apr 24 2012 at 10:00 AM.
Anyone have a reliable way to stay in combat with the training dummy? It drops combat with me after 16 seconds, which strips all my ballads and anthems and I have to auto attack it to get back in combat, which is keeping my parses way too short since I have to tier up for maximum heals. I am sure I am missing something obvious...
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
As a creep I did this, go group up with a partner, have him aggro a slug outside of gramsfoot. That starts Combat Analysis. Start the healing cycles for the intended duration then finish off the slug. I'm sure the freeps can find something to do the same with.
That said, as far as 'realistic combat', I have found that at least for WL's... given that there's not much to our healing... my Combat Analysis parses are pretty consistent as long as I have my big cooldowns available. (otherwise of course it drops).
So... have a couple fights, record the times of those fights that you want to record (ie, the ones that you actually had to heal decently in),then before you log off, go poke through your logs and see what you came up with
Grand Member Online status:
Reputation:
Senior Member Online status:
Reputation:
Originally Posted by aad0italian
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Junior Member Online status:
Member Online status:
)
Grand Member Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
