Thread: females and you

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The point is that there's no reason there should be 'freep versions' of those.

Unless, of course, Turbine decides there's money to be made in the TP Store by offering such "freep versions" to players who wish to buy them.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

No, it most certainly isn't given that this is an RPG rather than just fantasy dress-up

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree: YOU think it's a "roleplaying game," & that's good for you & yours.

Other people may well see it as "fantasy dress-up," & the only arbiter of which side is correct is Turbine -- not you, not me, not Dworin, not anyone else.

Originally Posted by Dworin

Awwww, that's too bad. They should bring them back, or something similar; the poster on the link you provided seems really upset to find her nice outfit ruined. But, what was wrong with that outfit? I though it looked nice.

Something that's called 'leggings' is pretty obviously supposed to cover your legs, so if it doesn't then it's plainly not 'working as intended'.

And what was wrong with it? Oh, I don't know, the idea of Elves wandering around in skirts so short you can see their underwear, maybe?

Originally Posted by Livejazz

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree: YOU think it's a "roleplaying game," & that's good for you & yours.

Other people may well see it as "fantasy dress-up," & the only arbiter of which side is correct is Turbine -- not you, not me, not Dworin, not anyone else.

Err, no. I know this is an MMORPG because that's what Turbine market it as; so yes, it's a roleplaying game, even if only in the limited sense typical of MMOs. They're never going to let you pick from absolutely every outfit that appears anywhere in-game, just the ones that make sense in their eyes for the 'roles' we're 'playing' (heroic Freeps).

I go back and re-read this thread, and I have to say, the more I read the posts from some of the people claiming to be RL females, the more I appreciate Eukwen and the happier I am that I don't know them RL.

I suspect it'd be like an old aunt I used to have, whom I endured when I had to but got away from as soon as possible. Maybe not, but that's the impression I get.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree: YOU think it's a "roleplaying game," & that's good for you & yours.

Other people may well see it as "fantasy dress-up," & the only arbiter of which side is correct is Turbine -- not you, not me, not Dworin, not anyone else.

I have to agree. While every one posting here has a right to their opinion, it's up to Turbine. And contrary to the opinion of some, there is nothing wrong with asking Turbine to provide more variety in the dress options. It is my hope that Turbine will listen to those asking for more variety, and not listen to those who are not content to dress their own character their own way, but also want to tell folks like Eukwen, "You have to dress in a manner I approve of."

Originally Posted by Livejazz

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree: YOU think it's a "roleplaying game," & that's good for you & yours.

Other people may well see it as "fantasy dress-up," & the only arbiter of which side is correct is Turbine -- not you, not me, not Dworin, not anyone else.

And hasn't Turbine already spoken on this issue by not making those outfits available for the Freep?

I guess I will have to say again what most of us are saying. "WE DON'T MIND SHORTER SKIRTS AS LONG AS IT IS IN THE SPIRIT OF THE LORE AND TASTEFUL."

Can I get more plain than that. There is a difference between a tasteful outfit that fits the lore and one that isn't tasteful.
oloellost
I would never go out dressed like a #### but I would go out in a tasteful outfit that was cut to my knees or mid-thigh.

There is a difference and most of the girls that have posted in the thread voiced that difference. I kind of wish people would actually read posts before belittling people.

And Estellost if I knew you in real life, I would have slapped for that comment. It was rude and not supporting my cause.

Originally Posted by kimano

And hasn't Turbine already spoken on this issue by not making those outfits available for the Freep?

I guess I will have to say again what most of us are saying. "WE DON'T MIND SHORTER SKIRTS AS LONG AS IT IS IN THE SPIRIT OF THE LORE AND TASTEFUL."

Can I get more plain than that. There is a difference between a tasteful outfit that fits the lore and one that isn't tasteful.
oloellost
I would never go out dressed like a #### but I would go out in a tasteful outfit that was cut to my knees or mid-thigh.

There is a difference and most of the girls that have posted in the thread voiced that difference. I kind of wish people would actually read posts before belittling people.

And Estellost if I knew you in real life, I would have slapped for that comment. It was rude and not supporting my cause.

No, you would not have. *shrug*

As for the rest of your post, not everyone opposing Eukwen's side of the argument agrees, and the thing I find particularly frustrating is the assumpions being made by some people. Eukwen ALWAYS dresses tastefully, and would do so if more variety were available, If skirts that were outrageous were added, Eukwen would not wear them, at least in public. Eukwen would want new designs to be fashionable and tasteful.

Fashionable and tasteful are subjective criteria. I think Turbine can look at a short skirt design and decide the appropriateness of it, but it's my opinion that skirts cut at the knee can be quite fashionable. Showing a little midriff does not necessarily make you look slutty. It CAN be done, in spite of the negativity of some.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

It's not like Middle-earth doesn't relate to anything else: it borrows heavily from Northern European myth and legend. Take the Rohirrim: everything about them says Northern European by inspiration, and from a fairly specific period at that. So, what would women wear in a society like that? Hint: not short skirts. Not showing off any midriff, either.

Of course it does. This is what Tolkien was all about: linguistic, mythology, literature.

Not artefacts. Not sociology. And certainly not reconstructions. Again, he explained he didn't even "visualise" clothing in most cases. If it was simply a matter of applying Norse norms to Rohan etc, there would be no need for such statement.

So I wonder why should we be so eager to do that for him and "canonise" results. Last time it happened certain Christopher pulled "LOTR is happening in distant era BC" despite contradicting sentences and subtleties - and look how "deep" it turned out - but then again, gotta sell those "books" on *something* new...


"The Rohirrim were not ‘mediaeval’, in our sense." - again, far from being definite: we are not getting anything positive, just "they were not".

So while we can obviously link various themes from LOTR to certain European cultures, there is nothing that could justify recreating Rohan in Mercia's image *despite* linguistical, cultural similarities - especially knowing that those are also artefacts of author's occupation and have more to do with "what this book was supposed to be" than "what civilisations it was supposed to be about". Last time I checked LOTR is full of such references and yet we are not treating it like a reconstruction of past societies with their antics, including dress code. Mostly because author refused to support such ideas. Not just because historians - not just this one here - would stare at you in disbelief, seeing that we have to draw conclusions from Book of the Westmarch, which is poor both as "source" and "study" of anything "material".

But hey, I don't need monopoly for the truth. If people judge there is enough to imagine Rohan as Mercia - I'm happy with Turbine using Norse-ish theme for clothes, language, architecture, emotes, anything.

...let's just not forget we have to deal with Dale, Gondor, Bree, then we have Elves... and that those societies were considered rather... different. ( Dale being mostly anonymous in comparison ). Let's not forget the only certain thing we have about our characters is that they were... born in specific land. Woohoo. Hardly a reason for definite statements, isn't it.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

It's a traditionally-minded sort of fantasy, and that has implications for the sort of clothes that people would be likely to be wearing. Modern sexuality should be out of the picture.

It's hard to call it "traditional" when it had hardly any proper predecessors in its genre. Being "traditional" in a sense of "being a recreation of mediaeval epic stories" is also an empty argument. One - those stories are not exactly of "Lorebook" value in terms of "pedestrian stuff" like clothing - sometimes they provide a gem or two; sometimes it's just high-class "target audience" rubbish. Two - actual mediaeval stories tend to be more... "improper" when compared to victorian *vision* or stereotypes about those times. Sexuality included.

Same issue about that last one though - there was no simple evolution from "full body carpet" to "modern standards" in sexuality terms either. So just because this particular fantasy is stylised after "past" cultures means... practically nothing. Especially considering how many cultures we are dealing with in LOTR/LOTRO - both as "player heritage" or "reputation factions". And I dealt with "faction" - specific outfits already - you didn't.

Oh, we *could* call author traditionally-minded. I'd say we could call certain readers/posters traditionally-minded too (which is probably more important anyway). But that is also empty argument: "fantasy" genre defies tradition by either being a way of escaping it or... presenting it as a fake world existing only because of the author. Finally - entire MMO idea, with all liberties we are granted, spits on "traditionally - minded". These two are like battleships compared to a canoe of "improper clothes". The fact such canoe is treated like a carrier group shows rather characteristic hierarchy. Or just that we all have too much free time on our hands to overblow "how bad it would be" out of proportions (provided by those two battleships). I get it, some of us want "victorian" fantasy in mediaeval costumes. But can we please stop pretending it is "proper" or "decent" (or "lore") just because few other games are going bananas in the other direction?

Nicely said, Ferthcott. The voice of reason. I especially like the last paragraph, and I hope posters here will take it to heart.

Originally Posted by Dworin

As for the rest of your post, not everyone opposing Eukwen's side of the argument agrees, and the thing I find particularly frustrating is the assumpions being made by some people. Eukwen ALWAYS dresses tastefully, and would do so if more variety were available, If skirts that were outrageous were added, Eukwen would not wear them, at least in public. Eukwen would want new designs to be fashionable and tasteful.

Fashionable and tasteful are subjective criteria. I think Turbine can look at a short skirt design and decide the appropriateness of it, but it's my opinion that skirts cut at the knee can be quite fashionable. Showing a little midriff does not necessarily make you look slutty. It CAN be done, in spite of the negativity of some.

Let's take an example of something from popular culture, shall we? Here's Renee O'Connor as Gabrielle in Xena: Warrior Princess:



*sigh*

Oops, where was I? Ah yes.

What matters is the context. If it's your typical fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. Somewhere that's supposed to be ancient Greece, though? No, sorry (even though I'll admit Ms. O'Connor was very easy on the eye, oh yes indeed). And if it were supposed to be Middle-earth, instead? Oh HELL no, and not just because it'd be too damn cold most of the time. Why? Because it's not even trying to look the part, it's just 'fantasy' and it reflects modern fashion (for showing midriff, in this case) rather than anything traditional. You should no more see an outfit like that associated with LOTR than you would with, say, Westeros in George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire novels. (Westeros in particular because it's largely the 'Europe' of that world, with a load of entirely obvious cultural references, much as LOTR's map of Middle-earth represents the 'Europe' of Arda).

In effect, you want Turbine to misapply generic fantasy 'fashion' of that sort to their version of Middle-earth, something they long since decided not to do (for Freeps, at least). Why did they stay away from it? Because it's supposed to be Middle-earth! There is no other reason.

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Of course it does. This is what Tolkien was all about: linguistic, mythology, literature.

Not artefacts. Not sociology. And certainly not reconstructions. Again, he explained he didn't even "visualise" clothing in most cases. If it was simply a matter of applying Norse norms to Rohan etc, there would be no need for such statement.

And yet he managed to provide some guidance to the artist who was asking him about it, explaining what sort of clothes hobbits would wear in general terms, if not in colourful detail. The thing is, some writers are more visually-inclined than others, picturing a scene in great detail in their minds and then describing that: with them, you often get to find out just what the characters are wearing. Tolkien, however, was evidently not such a writer but you shouldn't read too much into that.

So while we can obviously link various themes from LOTR to certain European cultures, there is nothing that could justify recreating Rohan in Mercia's image *despite* linguistical, cultural similarities - especially knowing that those are also artefacts of author's occupation and have more to do with "what this book was supposed to be" than "what civilisations it was supposed to be about". Last time I checked LOTR is full of such references and yet we are not treating it like a reconstruction of past societies with their antics, including dress code. Mostly because author refused to support such ideas. Not just because historians - not just this one here - would stare at you in disbelief, seeing that we have to draw conclusions from Book of the Westmarch, which is poor both as "source" and "study" of anything "material".

Nobody was suggesting for a moment it was supposed to be a reconstruction, but that it took strong inspiration from some very obvious sources. The thing is, if you're inspired by sagas and whatnot you tend to imagine things in those terms and that goes to explain why Tolkien's warriors are clad in mail, why the Rohirrim have round shields with jewelled central bosses, and so on. So, if the Riders of Rohan looked much like something out of European history (we have Tolkien's word on that, he compared them to the figures on the Bayeux Tapestry) then it's only logical to imagine that the people of Rohan would bear a strong resemblance to the sort of people who've clearly inspired them. And funnily enough, that's exactly what you tend to get when artists set out to depict them, because the references are so very obvious.

It's hard to call it "traditional" when it had hardly any proper predecessors in its genre. Being "traditional" in a sense of "being a recreation of mediaeval epic stories" is also an empty argument. One - those stories are not exactly of "Lorebook" value in terms of "pedestrian stuff" like clothing - sometimes they provide a gem or two; sometimes it's just high-class "target audience" rubbish. Two - actual mediaeval stories tend to be more... "improper" when compared to victorian *vision* or stereotypes about those times. Sexuality included.

It's 'traditional' in the sense that Tolkien was aiming to write constructed myth and legend, to recreate something of the feel of such tales. Yes, he bowdlerized them in the process, stripping out the earthiness of the real thing, but we know why he did that. It does not negate the very obvious point that if you set out to tell a story that's reminiscent of such tales then that resemblance will apply to more than just the plot.

Same issue about that last one though - there was no simple evolution from "full body carpet" to "modern standards" in sexuality terms either. So just because this particular fantasy is stylised after "past" cultures means... practically nothing.

Rubbish. Going back to skirts: it was 'fashion' in Western Europe for the longest time (many centuries!) for women to wear long skirts, floor-length or within a few inches of that. That only really changed in the early 20th Century. I mentioned that earlier, I explained that display does not have to consist entirely of winching hemlines ever higher, and you've utterly ignored that. So if it's stylised after past Western European cultures then it does mean at least that one thing. (Various others, too, like not going bare-breasted, which are so entrenched in our culture that they're accepted unquestioningly).

Oh, we *could* call author traditionally-minded. I'd say we could call certain readers/posters traditionally-minded too (which is probably more important anyway). But that is also empty argument: "fantasy" genre defies tradition by either being a way of escaping it or... presenting it as a fake world existing only because of the author. Finally - entire MMO idea, with all liberties we are granted, spits on "traditionally - minded". These two are like battleships compared to a canoe of "improper clothes". The fact such canoe is treated like a carrier group shows rather characteristic hierarchy. Or just that we all have too much free time on our hands to overblow "how bad it would be" out of proportions (provided by those two battleships). I get it, some of us want "victorian" fantasy in mediaeval costumes. But can we please stop pretending it is "proper" or "decent" (or "lore") just because few other games are going bananas in the other direction?

Fantasy is about escapism but that does not preclude it from referencing traditions: in this case, the author not only chose to do that but did it to a marked extent. And you are clearly wrong to say that Turbine have abandoned all the traditional elements of this fantasy: if it had, we would not be having this debate in the first place. You have only to look at the styling of buildings etc. in the recently-added zones to see them referencing traditional things wholesale, something that's attracted more than a few positive comments. Nothing of what you've said substantiates the idea that Turbine have thrown everything to the winds, or that therefore anything goes. What we have is not 'lore' but it's not your typical MMO either and therefore, aimless calls for typical MMO outfits are going to fall on deaf ears over at Turbine.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Let's take an example of something from popular culture, shall we?

In effect, you want Turbine to misapply generic fantasy 'fashion' of that sort to their version of Middle-earth, something they long since decided not to do (for Freeps, at least)

I have a better idea, let's don't take an example of something from popular culture. I am tired of you strawmanning this. Get this straight, once and for all: I DO NOT CARE WHAT THEY ARE DOING ON XENA! I DO NOT CARE WHAT THE FASHION LOOK IS IN AGE OF CONAN! I don't care, period. So stop saying I want Turbine to do anything related to any television show, any MMORPG, any movie out there. Just stop. I'm tired of it.



http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item:Ceremonial_Dress

Now, look at this dress from the waist down. Imagine it as a skirt, with minor detail changes, and cut knee length or a little higher. Add a nice top with it and it's fashionable, and stylish, and gives Eukwen some variety in her wardrobe. How would that be objectionable?

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

In effect, you want Turbine to misapply generic fantasy 'fashion' of that sort to their version of Middle-earth ...

Actually, I think that's what you wish to infer from Dworin's arguments.

I find it comical that adults are arguing over how to dress a toon. Got Barbie?

Originally Posted by thelurchyone

I find it comical that adults are arguing over how to dress a toon. Got Barbie?

Barbie does not dance with Est, or heal him at just the right moment, or.....

Originally Posted by Dworin

I have a better idea, let's don't take an example of something from popular culture. I am tired of you strawmanning this. Get this straight, once and for all: I DO NOT CARE WHAT THEY ARE DOING ON XENA! I DO NOT CARE WHAT THE FASHION LOOK IS IN AGE OF CONAN! I don't care, period. So stop saying I want Turbine to do anything related to any television show, any MMORPG, any movie out there. Just stop. I'm tired of it.

Stop what? You said anything NPCs wear should be up for grabs; I reminded you that would eventually include Ghân-buri-Ghân's grass skirt. That's not a strawman, that's a bit of reductio ad absurdum; you shouldn't make sweeping generalisations like that. You can't complain about that without acknowledging that there should be limits. Now I've just shown you an example of just what you were talking about (short skirt, bare midriff, attractive and not distasteful) and you freak out. The thing is, there was bare midriff to be seen in Xena for the same reason you want to see bare midriff in this game, it's popular fashion being transplanted into fantasy. Again, that's not a strawman argument: it's just pointing out what you're asking to be included, what sort of fantasy it appears in, the same lack of context there as here. You brought up the subject of showing some midriff, so you can hardly complain.

Now, look at this dress from the waist down. Imagine it as a skirt, with minor detail changes, and cut knee length or a little higher. Add a nice top with it and it's fashionable, and stylish, and gives Eukwen some variety in her wardrobe. How would that be objectionable?

I can see dresses that are evidently intended to remind people of traditional styles and look fine the way they are, and I can see you still thinking solely in modern terms. Variety can come from a lot more than winching up hemlines, as I explained earlier.

Have you seen any of Game of Thrones? Guess what the women of Westeros are shown wearing? Hmm, yes, long dresses. Even when Daenerys is dressed Dothraki style (their version of it, anyway) she's wearing a skirt that comes to mid-calf; when she's anywhere civilised, look what happens! A long dress. Or how about that recent Camelot series? Oh yes, long dresses again. Not the best of series but I don't remember thinking "Dammit, they've put Eva Green in a grandma dress." Hmm, what else... oh yes, that CGI movie of Beowulf. What was Hrothgar's wife wearing? I think you can guess, by now.

So you see, it's not just me. This is a cultural meme, with extremely strong foundations, that's regularly applied to fantasy even nowadays. You must have seen this but it seems you're blind to it, just how strong it is (based as it is on how women actually used to dress, funnily enough). And where do we see what you want? Hmm, yes, cheap-and-cheerful fantasy, nothing classy, but of course you don't want to admit that, do you?

Originally Posted by Dworin

I have a better idea, let's don't take an example of something from popular culture. I am tired of you strawmanning this. Get this straight, once and for all: I DO NOT CARE WHAT THEY ARE DOING ON XENA! I DO NOT CARE WHAT THE FASHION LOOK IS IN AGE OF CONAN! I don't care, period. So stop saying I want Turbine to do anything related to any television show, any MMORPG, any movie out there. Just stop. I'm tired of it.



http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item:Ceremonial_Dress

Now, look at this dress from the waist down. Imagine it as a skirt, with minor detail changes, and cut knee length or a little higher. Add a nice top with it and it's fashionable, and stylish, and gives Eukwen some variety in her wardrobe. How would that be objectionable?

YES! it isn't in line with the lore.

There are plenty of options in the game as is. Look in the general discussion for the cosmetic thread. Is there that you all can't put an outfit together with what is there and has been Turbine approved? A girl should be able to this without much fuss.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Let's take an example of something from popular culture, shall we? Here's Renee O'Connor as Gabrielle in Xena: Warrior Princess:

Lets take a look at a screen shot from LOTRO, shall we?



Hmmm odd, Looks like that style is in the game.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

I can see dresses that are evidently intended to remind people of traditional styles and look fine the way they are, and I can see you still thinking solely in modern terms. Variety can come from a lot more than winching up hemlines, as I explained earlier.

Yep. Short dresses for ladies are (mostly) a modern invention, in the past century or so. I like them of course, but not so much in this setting .

It won't do for people to try and argue that in a "fantasy" setting anything they wish to see can be applied, because Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings in part as a mythology for England, with influences across northern and western Europe. If you look at how he describes armor and weapons, for example, it's pretty much what you'd expect to see in the "middle" Middle-ages. Even exotic items like Saruman's black powder "bomb" (and Gandalf's fireworks) would be plausible in that time period, at least if the Wizards had contact with the far east (and we do know the Blue Wizards went off that way).

That said... I know it's a game, and that they cannot be perfect sticklers for the "lore". Rune-keepers are a pretty big "bend", IMO, yet they're still in the game. I just don't think that past "bends" should be used as an excuse for future ones, because it's the accumulation of those things that will rob the game of feeling like Middle-earth.

Khafar

Textwall. Too many issues in one post. TLR version:

LOTR is a story, but LOTR world is created by something more/else than a story. So transferring Western cultures and arbitrary selected elements is just... silly considering it feels like telling people what to imagine even though author had kinda different opinions.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

And yet he managed to provide some guidance to the artist explaining what sort of clothes hobbits would wear

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Hobbits are dealth with

Expanded version: we have a nice number of normative statements about hobbits and their outfits - call it an exception if you like, he still said what he said - and it was a piece of text dealing mostly with race of Man anyway. So, sorry, assumptions lose to quotes supported by lack of normative statements.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Nobody was suggesting for a moment it was supposed to be a reconstruction (...) So, if the Riders of Rohan looked much like something out of European history (we have Tolkien's word on that, he compared them to the figures on the Bayeux Tapestry) then it's only logical to imagine...

Thing is, if you are seeking something else than "personal vision" or "personal fantasy" (or just something to resemble objectivity needed for judgements like "what's right and what does not fit") reconstruction effort is necessary. And its imminent failure speaks clearly enough about futility of too "serious" judgements. Again, I don't mind LOTRO Rohirrim in general as they are slightly "uncivilised" by local standards, so Norse version fits them as well as any similar - but I wouldn't cry about picturing them as any other blonde-horse-warlike bunch. If anything, too *many* of those references would be naive to the extreme unless LOTR is suddenly post-modern. Keep in mind that Bayeux comparison is immediately followed by a piece about its "style". Yeah, they are Bayeux-ish... they have chainmail and shields and swords and horses. I already mentioned interactions w/ Rohirrim = w/ warriors. So yeah, we have a general idea about how they dressed... for war. And that they were not like Mongols or Egyptians.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

It's 'traditional' in the sense that Tolkien was aiming to write constructed myth and legend...

Entire tale is created by hobbits, filtered through their bias, experiences, goal of writing to commemorate their friends, deeds and victory of righteous cause. Book is supposed to lie in domain of history (that is: created by hobbits), not just mythology. Remember "different PoV" for Bilbo & Dragon story? It was an obvious example what author himself did: analysed entire thing as a tale about the world that wasn't exactly how hobbits saw it, that existed *regardless* of "mythological" feel Lord of the Rings had. Full of people who didn't give a damn about myth-in-progress and living their life in their own way. We are not slaves to such mythological form, nor we have to "strip out the earthiness of the real thing". What kind of mediaeval epic that LOTR is recreating includes detailed maps, linguistical analysis, genealogy, commentaries from different PoV? Can't forget about that and pretend it's "just" "bowdlerized" legend.

Simulation of LOTR is just about ... 0,5%? of the game. Events take place outside of perspective/knowledge of "author" (eg. Frodo). A LOT of mundane quests that wouldn't fit in any self-respecting legend and places that are completely outside of "legendary" requirements appear. PC are parading in Lossoth outfits. Heck, PC might be parading in Lossoth outfits in Harad someday. I wonder what kind of outfits will be available from rep vendor there (you know, that tribe of "good" Haradrim we can grind rep for, so we... can wear those) - unless it will be deemed "lore" to use heavy armour or other northern outfits only

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Rubbish. Going back to skirts: it was 'fashion' in Western Europe for the longest time ...(many centuries!) for women to wear long skirts, floor-length or within a few inches of that. (...) So if it's stylised after past Western European cultures then it does mean at least that one thing..

Care to elaborate on rubbish? Entire mediaeval Europe is laughing at modern stereotypes, especially at ridiculously simplistic visualisation of changes. Peculiar Slavic sources (and hey, that alone invites certain amount of Norse influences! /mock), Celtic remnants, hey, even proper Englishmen were guilty of indecent customs including (this one is actually Monthy - Python - related too) kidnapping by females. So yeah, even forgetting Western culture is not "just Christianity", it's not simple "progress from extremity A to extremity B". And by the way, while Christian morality is obviously present everywhere in the book, it's more than clear Christian societies are not. So picturing Middle - Earth as "mediaeval in spirit AND in matter" has one more fatal flaw.

Skirts case: you are still assuming we are talking about Western Europe, specific period of time. What kind of Western Europe is Dale and how exactly can we be sure about that? Anything about Algraig we can practically "turn into", considering the title @ kindred? Wondering about certain Anorien faction yet? No, it's not just garden variety of Norse themes, even though most of them can be linked to them. It's as European as Witcher's Elves are from Tolkien's world. Sure, they bear all "traditional" traits genre developed since LOTR. But that's about it.

Also, if we're talking about outlaws (though not just them, at least in Europe) - they are destroying your fashion model because there was that inconvenent part about women often wearing outfits that "belonged to men". Yes, Western Europe included, no, it was not part of "fashion" and no, it was not just about "one girl near Orlean" nor it meant "armour". And happened often enough that actual regulations were made against it... repeatedly (so not enough were giving a damn ). So yeah, totally impossible people are acting on their own in M-E.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

I explained that display does not have to consist entirely of winching hemlines ever higher, and you've utterly ignored that.

I ignored that because the game obviously ignores you and entire issue and it is not "because brigands are of different culture" or because "brigands are NPCs". There is no "brigand society" neither in LOTR nor in LOTRO. Those people are not from different world either, only so many places they could come from - care to explain why would that be desolated area nobody inhabits and not one of those "westernised" cultures? And NPC part is even funnier: what exactly makes their outfits specific to NPC? I thought that about Lossoth - until I got their clothes. I thought that about Rangers - then they showered me with their clothes too. I thought that about inhabitants of Rivendell. Then they offered me their dresses. Is it because brigands are "evil"? Yeah, I totally understand. Evil outfits.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

And you are clearly wrong to say that Turbine have abandoned all the traditional elements of this fantasy

Um... where? I described Turbine added entire fantasy world to fantasy story. And they created this world not just from LOTR but from vast collection of texts Tolkien wrote that are anything BUT "traditional fantasy" not to mention adding MMO mechanics that allow 3456 different options (weird ones included) outside of "traditional fantasy". So why exactly first one is more important in creating rules for entire world to the point it has to dictate what people wear to the smallest detail? Sorry, not people, few characters we know nothing about except they were born in certain places and then went off to... deliver pies in Shire... or kill Draigoch... or gather Rowan Wood... or torture trees with their singing. But all the time they remembered to respect their allegiance and proper culture by wearing exactly what they should wear. Seriously. Oh, wait, they will sometimes wear that weird thing from Rift on their heads, but that's totally OK. Eldgang made it, they are Free Peoples.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

resemblance will apply to more than just the plot.

More meaning what? The parts that are relevant to the plot? Sure. That are creating necessary context for the plot? Obviously.
Please, feel free to explain how dress code drawn from arbitrary societies & period of time and applied to 4 different PC factions is in any way relevant to the "plot" in terms of details this entire thread is about. I thought we already established that

A. LOTR is not focused on clothes in general, with some exceptions about hobbits.
B. LOTR does not deal with various themes or topics at all

If it is relevant "because it tells you how to imagine background" then I'm sorry, but that means *everything* should be added, down to archaeological level. Middle - Earth as a simulation of arbitrary selected societies even though author admits he didn't imagine anything in particular. Er... no, thanks. It's not better than Xena - even though nobody is asking for Xena from what I've seen so far. You are the one using that horrible show as a scarecrow.

Well, Eukwen, the fashion police have spoken. You keep them knees covered, woman! Ankles, too! You might offend some of them.

*sigh*

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

.

I had forgotten just how cute she is.

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

A LOT of mundane quests that wouldn't fit in any self-respecting legend and places that are completely outside of "legendary" requirements appear.

I would never read a book that had the hero getting 14 boar livers or something like that!

Originally Posted by Dworin

Well, Eukwen, the fashion police have spoken. You keep them knees covered, woman! Ankles, too! You might offend some of them.

*sigh*

Whatever.

Why do you continue to use this argument? Has it worked for you yet? There is a lot of us girls here that wear skimpier clothes in real life(although we don't wear whorish clothing), however that doesn't mean we want to wear them in a video game. You still haven't answered my question on why you can't make fab outfits with preexisting outfits when so many have?

I really wish I could give negative feedback.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Stop what? You said anything NPCs wear should be up for grabs; I reminded you that would eventually include Ghân-buri-Ghân's grass skirt. That's not a strawman, that's a bit of reductio ad absurdum; you shouldn't make sweeping generalisations like that. You can't complain about that without acknowledging that there should be limits. Now I've just shown you an example of just what you were talking about (short skirt, bare midriff, attractive and not distasteful) and you freak out. The thing is, there was bare midriff to be seen in Xena for the same reason you want to see bare midriff in this game, it's popular fashion being transplanted into fantasy. Again, that's not a strawman argument: it's just pointing out what you're asking to be included, what sort of fantasy it appears in, the same lack of context there as here. You brought up the subject of showing some midriff, so you can hardly complain.


I can see dresses that are evidently intended to remind people of traditional styles and look fine the way they are, and I can see you still thinking solely in modern terms. Variety can come from a lot more than winching up hemlines, as I explained earlier.

Have you seen any of Game of Thrones? Guess what the women of Westeros are shown wearing? Hmm, yes, long dresses. Even when Daenerys is dressed Dothraki style (their version of it, anyway) she's wearing a skirt that comes to mid-calf; when she's anywhere civilised, look what happens! A long dress. Or how about that recent Camelot series? Oh yes, long dresses again. Not the best of series but I don't remember thinking "Dammit, they've put Eva Green in a grandma dress." Hmm, what else... oh yes, that CGI movie of Beowulf. What was Hrothgar's wife wearing? I think you can guess, by now.

So you see, it's not just me. This is a cultural meme, with extremely strong foundations, that's regularly applied to fantasy even nowadays. You must have seen this but it seems you're blind to it, just how strong it is (based as it is on how women actually used to dress, funnily enough). And where do we see what you want? Hmm, yes, cheap-and-cheerful fantasy, nothing classy, but of course you don't want to admit that, do you?

I said skirts were in the game already, which is true. It is you that keeps dragging up other genres to create a strawman. I gave a clear-cut example of what I'm talking about, and even something so simple as knee-length versions of player-wearable dresses are objected to.

So drop the Xena stuff. It's a strawman. I'm not talking about Camelot, you are. I'm not talking about Game of Thrones, you are. You are strawmanning like crazy. Face it. Some folks in this thread are so scared that someone might have fun in this game that you don't approve of, it's pathetic.

Originally Posted by Dworin

I said skirts were in the game already, which is true. It is you that keeps dragging up other genres to create a strawman. I gave a clear-cut example of what I'm talking about, and even something so simple as knee-length versions of player-wearable dresses are objected to.

So drop the Xena stuff. It's a strawman. I'm not talking about Camelot, you are. I'm not talking about Game of Thrones, you are. You are strawmanning like crazy. Face it. Some folks in this thread are so scared that someone might have fun in this game that you don't approve of, it's pathetic.

It isn't pathetic. You are not making a good case for yourself. Please try again or drop it thank you. and answer my question.

Originally Posted by kimano

Why do you continue to use this argument? Has it worked for you yet? There is a lot of us girls here that wear skimpier clothes in real life(although we don't wear whorish clothing), however that doesn't mean we want to wear them in a video game. You still haven't answered my question on why you can't make fab outfits with preexisting outfits when so many have?

I really wish I could give negative feedback.

I have answered that question. I said clearly that Eukwen always looks good, and she does. Maybe you should have read what I had to say?

Eukwen does a great job with what she has to work with. I have no complaints about how she dresses. But she would like greater variety in putting together outfits. I support her in that.

You are seriously going to toss out the word whorish about skirts cut above the knee? Seriously? To my knowledge I never said that YOU had to wear them on YOUR toon. I am perfectly content to let you wear what you want. I just wish you had the same respect.

Originally Posted by kimano

It isn't pathetic. You are not making a good case for yourself. Please try again or drop it thank you. and answer my question.

Why would he want to talk to you while you are being so incredibly rude?

If you want to know what kind of outfits *I* wear, ask me, not him. He wears nice outfits, but he is only posting here because he knows that I am passionate about new outfits and having more choices for new outfits and he wants to support me.

In case you are wondering... I have hundreds of outfits! I am a rabid cosmetic collector and try to wear a new outfit nearly everyday. My game play revolves around dressing up. I do the games content to get new pieces for my outfits (seriously!) I wear anything and everything I can get my hands on. I just happen to like the idea of adding MORE choices and styles to the available palatte.

And I still support you in that, in spite of the negativity of some here. I hope you get what you want, and if some here are offended, too bad. I'm too disgusted with the attitudes of a few people to care any longer what they think. Nobody has given a really good reason not to have shorter skirts than "I really don't want your character to wear something like that." That's it. That, bottom line, is all their arguments boil down to. As I said, nagging busybodies.

(Eukwen: Raid was a success, but Est was near the bottom on loot. However, there are two more worn symbols in the chest. )

Originally Posted by Dworin

You are seriously going to toss out the word whorish about skirts cut above the knee? Seriously? To my knowledge I never said that YOU had to wear them on YOUR toon. I am perfectly content to let you wear what you want. I just wish you had the same respect.

And here we are again. You are chastising me for not reading what you wrote when you are not doing the same. I never said that skirts cut above the knee was whorish. I even went on to say that I support any cosmetic that is within lore and tasteful.

You have failed to provide an example. You say that the brigands and dunlending have such outfits. yes they do. Should we wear them? No, it doesn't fit in what is proper in the game(The good team wear modest clothing) as proven every time Turbine has released cosmetics for the game(Turbine has already decided what is proper and what is not concerning cosmetics).

You say that Rad is using a straw man argument when you are continuing to use the same line about us girls who don't want to wear that stuff in game are "prudes." How does that fit into the argument about what is proper or not in LOTRO? What I wear outside of the game is irrelevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Why would he want to talk to you while you are being so incredibly rude?

and these are not being rude to other females in the thread?

I go back and re-read this thread, and I have to say, the more I read the posts from some of the people claiming to be RL females, the more I appreciate Eukwen and the happier I am that I don't know them RL.

I suspect it'd be like an old aunt I used to have, whom I endured when I had to but got away from as soon as possible. Maybe not, but that's the impression I get.

Originally Posted by Dworin

Well, Eukwen, the fashion police have spoken. You keep them knees covered, woman! Ankles, too! You might offend some of them.

*sigh*

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

I just happen to like the idea of adding MORE choices and styles to the available palatte.

So attacking everyone for 15 pages that disagrees with your idea is ok then? While you happen to like the idea there is a majority that don't and continuing to call everyone that is disagreeing with that "prudes" isn't helping. We have stated why we don't(doesn't fit in with lore and/or isn't tasteful and Turbine has agreed with us so far).

Just because there a lot of females that play this game and want something tasteful and not like every other MMO at there we are the "prudes". thanks.

Originally Posted by Dworin

I have a better idea, let's don't take an example of something from popular culture. I am tired of you strawmanning this. Get this straight, once and for all: I DO NOT CARE WHAT THEY ARE DOING ON XENA! I DO NOT CARE WHAT THE FASHION LOOK IS IN AGE OF CONAN! I don't care, period. So stop saying I want Turbine to do anything related to any television show, any MMORPG, any movie out there. Just stop. I'm tired of it.



http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item:Ceremonial_Dress

Now, look at this dress from the waist down. Imagine it as a skirt, with minor detail changes, and cut knee length or a little higher. Add a nice top with it and it's fashionable, and stylish, and gives Eukwen some variety in her wardrobe. How would that be objectionable?

Kimano:

Oh for crying out loud. This does not count as an example to you? Did you read any of the thread? I don't think you are prudes because you don't want to wear shorter skirts. I find it disgusting you can't mind your own business and let others wear what they want to wear.

Seriously, you talk about being attacked for 15 pages? It's perfectly legitimate to ask TURBINE for some cosmetic changes, as far as I know we don't have to ask your permission to do so, but instead of just leaving it alone, letting us ask and letting Turbine decide, your side could not mind their own business. You want respect, then earn it. Attacking people for daring to ask for something you disagree with does not gain you any respect in my book.

Originally Posted by Dworin

Kimano:

Oh for crying out loud. This does not count as an example to you? Did you read any of the thread? I don't think you are prudes because you don't want to wear shorter skirts. I find it disgusting you can't mind your own business and let others wear what they want to wear.

Seriously, you talk about being attacked for 15 pages? It's perfectly legitimate to ask TURBINE for some cosmetic changes, as far as I know we don't have to ask your permission to do so, but instead of just leaving it alone, letting us ask and letting Turbine decide, your side could not mind their own business. You want respect, then earn it. Attacking people for daring to ask for something you disagree with does not gain you any respect in my book.

Umm I hate to say this but you posted on a message board where people are allowed to post their opinion and say /signed or /unsigned because of said reason. I find it disgusting that you can't understand that people are allowed to voice their opinions on stuff(and it seems like the "Prudes" have spoken against this issue).

So we are not allowed to disagree with anyone on a message board. Same thing here for you. respect isn't just a one way street there.

Originally Posted by kimano

Umm I hate to say this but you posted on a message board where people are allowed to post their opinion and say /signed or /unsigned because of said reason. I find it disgusting that you can't understand that people are allowed to voice their opinions on stuff(and it seems like the "Prudes" have spoken against this issue).

So we are not allowed to disagree with anyone on a message board. Same thing here for you. respect isn't just a one way street there.

You can disagree all you want to, and even post about it for 20 pages if you want. It's not my place to stop you. But when the 20 pages all boil down to "I just don't want you to be able to wear that kind of clothing.", you don't have a reasonable disagreement that amounts to more than being nagging busybodies, and you should not be surprised when you get called on it.

You said I did not show an example. I proved that I did. You didn't even read the thread so that your argument could be an informed argument based on what was said. You (generic you) act like nagging busybodies then whine when you get called nagging busybodies, and you expect to be respected?

So please, post away. I have no desire to stop you. I have no desire to make you wear clothes in-game you are not comfortable with. I don't want to rummage through your closets, approving or disapproving of what you have chosen to wear. It would be nice (and earn you some respect) if you felt the same. But you don't, and that's not my fault.

Perhaps it would be best if we all let this thread end at this point? We all seem to have moved from discussion into a more hostile type of debate. For or against, I don't like the idea of people being this cruel toward each other when talking about something that should be fun for all of us.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Perhaps it would be best if we all let this thread end at this point? We all seem to have moved from discussion into a more hostile type of debate. For or against, I don't like the idea of people being this cruel toward each other when talking about something that should be fun for all of us.

Not a bad idea, and I'm sorry if my frustration caused me to type a little more bluntly than is my usual demeanor.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

In case you are wondering... I have hundreds of outfits! I am a rabid cosmetic collector and try to wear a new outfit nearly everyday. My game play revolves around dressing up. I do the games content to get new pieces for my outfits (seriously!) I wear anything and everything I can get my hands on. I just happen to like the idea of adding MORE choices and styles to the available palatte.

This is so me lol! I also do game content for new outfits. Boy, I've spent some major TP for outfits too.

Originally Posted by Dworin

Not a bad idea, and I'm sorry if my frustration caused me to type a little more bluntly than is my usual demeanor.

Not too many people have the guts to say that. I mean that as a sincere compliment.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Lets take a look at a screen shot from LOTRO, shall we?

Hmmm odd, Looks like that style is in the game.

You're a bit late to the party, there. There was some discussion earlier about what NPCs (especially hostile ones!) wear vs. what player-characters wear. Bear in mind there are loads of styles for them that aren't available to us right now, for all they're in the game. That particular one has been in since launch so if you can't dress like that by now, there's no reason to imagine you ever will or should be.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Not too many people have the guts to say that. I mean that as a sincere compliment.

Thank you. It's not a biggie and I should know better. It's just a message board, and I imagine it has very little bearing on what Turbine decides to do. I maintain my hope that in new expansions, you ladies (Esp the ones who collect clothes like I collect Orc heads) get new cosmetics that you like and gives you more options when you are choosing what outfits to wear. I have a lot of fun watching Eukwen put together a new outfit, and the challenge for me then becomes finding *something* in my comparatively meager wardrobe so that I match her and look good standing beside her. Good luck with it!