Thread: Why is asking a hunter to cc like insulting his mother?

Originally Posted by Strikerin

For what possible reason would you use combat traps?
All 70k mobs in the limlight can be soloed with nothing but bards arrow and slows

Depends on style and gear I guess. I've tried it using bards arrow and slows and find it quicker with traps (alongside Bards Arrow, Explosive Arrow and the trait that shaves time off heartshot cooldown on bards arrow use) as while they are held in traps I can do an awful lot of damage very quickly and then also do a lot more as they slowly charge towards me.

I time it on how much of the five minutes of booster food are left. There's not much in it but using the full gamut of CC is safer for me and my remaining reflexes as even without using bleeds or fire oils fears can break.

Originally Posted by Poppycock

Agree with all this, a hunter with explosive arrow and a properly traited cc bow was how we downed Gortheron T2C server first. 30s mez with a 15s cool down + 20s fear + beast fear + RoT + combat traps = win. If you have lots of DPS and not enough burgs or LMs, a reality for many kins, ask one of your 6 hunters to trait CC. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Also works well when you need to solo those 75k mobs in Limlight Gorge.

Exactly! We did the same thing in Gortheron (albiet we were only server 3rd ) Also, about all the people saying that "hunter cc breaks easily" and "it is impossible to use in a group because people are noobs", we managed and we managed so because we had good communication and most importantly, a plan, which is perhaps why many people believe that it is impossible to cc as a hunter in a group effectively, because most of the groups people run in and end up complaining about this from are pugs, where the extent of planning involves putting up a target assist and having at it.

Originally Posted by Strikerin

For what possible reason would you use combat traps?
All 70k mobs in the limlight can be soloed with nothing but bards arrow and slows, and they have many other issues if you try to do them in other situations (moors/raids)

I personally like combat traps because when traited I've found it to be one of the CCs that are hardest for others to break. Somehow if you're soloing in Lhimlight often ppl interfere. Not that I mind since it adds a bit of extra dps. Also in groups when you shout out "CC'ing X mob", then if it's a pug you're almost certain to see someone run over to it to free it. So don't want to make it too easy to free :P

So all in all, combat traps are for when you expect ppl to be breaking your CCs and want to be prepared for that

Originally Posted by DrumMajorC

Realistically, In ToO T2 a cc traited hunter would appear to be the best option for the trash mobs with adaptation, when you consider the fact that the hunter (when traited) has a longer total duration of cc than both a burg and a LM (with a 20 second fear and a 30 second daze) it would appear that the hunter is the best choice for say, keeping a taskmaster locked down for as long as possible in lightning trash. Even more interesting, with the distracting shot cooldown legacy and 3 piece gontrhadir, I've found myself to be able to permanently lock down two separate mobs with some very careful induction timing, which all goes to say that when an individual knows what they are doing, a cc hunter can be just as effective as either a burg or an LM. However I will concede that traiting cc does indeed gimp our damage immensely, and as such, is an extremely situational ability (pretty much only useful in some orthanc trash pulls as mentioned before) and I would in no way advocate using yellow line as the main focus of a hunter's build which can perhaps explain some of the stigma attached to having hunters cc. But perhaps the biggest reason for the animosity, is the fact that many hunters simply do not realize the potential in our cc abilities whether through ignorance, or sheer refusal to trait in a manner that they deem "useless".

Again I have completed CC in those raids as well on both LM and hunter and frankly, I don't disagree with your point here in any way. What I find interesting about it however is this: while yes it's possible to do, it is not very LIKELY to be the case with MOST hunters, since the reality of this scenario is that compared to a LM's day-to-day skills, hunter CC is highly dependent on just the right legacies, trait line, and gear set up to come even close to level of normal LM CC.

Example - Blinding Flash (but one LM cc skill...) is a 30 sec mez just to start. Now, assuming the fool who breaks CC in a group is not an issue.... BF can be (and for me often is) a permanent, indefinite lock on any mob - and I can still be casting other CC skills in the meantime as well as perform my primary function - which is to debuff and CC the mobs others are wearing down.

Performing your primary role is simply not an option for a CC'd hunter, as you observed.

So I would caution regarding the comments floating here that, if we are to promote the notion that our CC abilities are actually on par with a LMs (or that they are better - something that my own experience at each contradicts...) then we are shifting focus away from what is our primary role and more importantly, away from what it should be -- not to mention the fact that our primary role and its skill set needs a major look into for some areas of performance... but that is another thread... or a few hundred of them by now, lol.

Mostly, I'd say the OP's comment suggesting a hunter's day-to-day CC skills are SUPPOSED to be as good or better as a LMs or Burg's and that it's somehow the hunter's fault they are not to be not only a sad comment for me to read as a hunter (and as a LM), but one reflecting thinking I have seen elsewhere in the game. There continues to prevail an expectation - an unrealistic one at that in most cases - that "hunters should be... (fill in the blank) hunters should do...(fill in the blank)" because we are a "basic" class -- funny; so are Guardians yet I do not see them getting constantly reamed for being raging idiots the way hunters are. It just gets old.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I kinda would like to know this. Because i dont judge a hunter by his DPS but by his CC ability. Most of you can DPS buy how many of you can fear a target that resisted the burg mez before it gets to your healer? how many can CC like a LM on trash pulls in t2 whenn needed?

so many fail hunters. were are the good ones?

Would you be so kind as to go back to trolling just the burg section please? Thanks.

First off I don't see how this question is 'trolling' in any way (it could have been phrased better but that's beside the point).

The heart of the OP's question is this: Why are so many players unconcerned with their secondary roles? Champions/Captains generally don't gear and trait for tanking, Hunter's generally don't trait and practice for CC roles, Rune-Keepers more often than not have a huge preference of DPS or Healing and neglect the other one, Lore-Masters are usually unwilling to trait for healing to heal 3-mans should a different healer not be available. Guardians and Wardens don't usually heavily gear for DPS and make assumptions that their DPS is awful (I'm not implying its great either).

Now the usual response is 'I don't focus on my secondary role because other classes do it better.' In fact that arguement has been the main justification for why Hunter's don't trait CC. But what really matters is does it allow you to complete the content?

There is a secondary aspect of his question which is probably this: Why do most players not know when it is and is not prudent to break the status quo and use a CC, or challenge a mob, or start kiting, blow cool-downs etc? To answer this it is because many people don't feel the need to understand the global mechanics of the fight. Ask 12 people who have done t1 over a half-dozen times how the mechanics of each trash and boss fight work and I bet 9 of them wouldn't be able to tell you. This is generally how it works out when I PuG and even in kin runs. I and one to two other people tend to know the full set of mechanics but everyone else is in a tunnel vision with respect to their role as if they had blinders on. If the pull or fight doesn't go exactly as planned, if someone who recognizes the particular problem now at hand can't react (usually because their class isn't compatible or they know it would wipe the group for them to act on it) or worse doesn't see it and can't call it out it is a wipe. For t2 I don't believe it is possible for a group like that to advance and succeed consistently and within a reasonable time frame, which is where the frustration comes in and why many questions similar to the OP's arise. The chain is only as strong as it's weakest link after all.

TL;DR People in general look for the fastest and shortest way to achieve an objective. With respect to LotRO it means following a leader more or less blindly, and only focusing on your primary role.

Originally Posted by socom33

Rune-Keepers more often than not have a huge preference of DPS or Healing and neglect the other one

Actually, I've wondered this myself, only played a RK to 35 so far but I have noticed that Crowd Control isn't very hard to do with them. At my level I have a Stun, a skill or two with a Stun chance, 1 single-target slow, and 1 one AoE slow (might be more, haven't played in a week so haven't been thinking bout it ) and I think if I tried I could actually CC better with my RK than with my Hunter... actually I know I could. If there's some reason why higher levels don't CC could you tell me?

Originally Posted by Zioloth

Actually, I've wondered this myself, only played a RK to 35 so far but I have noticed that Crowd Control isn't very hard to do with them. At my level I have a Stun, a skill or two with a Stun chance, 1 single-target slow, and 1 one AoE slow (might be more, haven't played in a week so haven't been thinking bout it ) and I think if I tried I could actually CC better with my RK than with my Hunter... actually I know I could. If there's some reason why higher levels don't CC could you tell me?

I don't have a RK, but play often with a friend who is RK. It is my experience as a 75 hunter who, in my humble opinion, is good at CC that hunters have more consistent CC skills. My RK friend has a stun that he uses that hits constantly, I don't know what the cool down on it is, but he doesn't use it more than once a fight it seems. With proper traits, I as a hunter have 3 very consistent stuns, 1 fear that works consistently on pretty much everything, 1 fear for animals that's consistent, 2 or 3 trap options that work consistently, a very consistent slow and I'm not as squishy if something goes wrong. Also, I have 1 fear, 2 stuns, 1 slow, and a trap skill that will cool down quick enough to use more than once in difficult fights.

As an example, in the LG quest where you kill 3 trolls while mining for ore, I can keep one troll in a non-stop fear/stun loop even if the occasional skill misses. This is without even specializing my traits or get at all beyond DPS. If they don't miss, I can almost keep two trolls in a non-stop CC loop without special traits. If I totally trait up for CC, I can keep two trolls on a non-stop CC loop. Can a RK do that? I honestly don't know.

Originally Posted by Widoch

I don't have a RK, but play often with a friend who is RK. It is my experience as a 75 hunter who, in my humble opinion, is good at CC that hunters have more consistent CC skills. My RK friend has a stun that he uses that hits constantly, I don't know what the cool down on it is, but he doesn't use it more than once a fight it seems. With proper traits, I as a hunter have 3 very consistent stuns, 1 fear that works consistently on pretty much everything, 1 fear for animals that's consistent, 2 or 3 trap options that work consistently, a very consistent slow and I'm not as squishy if something goes wrong. Also, I have 1 fear, 2 stuns, 1 slow, and a trap skill that will cool down quick enough to use more than once in difficult fights.

As an example, in the LG quest where you kill 3 trolls while mining for ore, I can keep one troll in a non-stop fear/stun loop even if the occasional skill misses. This is without even specializing my traits or get at all beyond DPS. If they don't miss, I can almost keep two trolls in a non-stop CC loop without special traits. If I totally trait up for CC, I can keep two trolls on a non-stop CC loop. Can a RK do that? I honestly don't know.

Hunter's have two dazes, and no stuns.

Distracting Shot - lasting 10s with a 3minute CD and Dazing Blow - lasting 5s with a 1minute CD
Bard's Arrow - 15s fear that only works on evil mobs with a 30s CD
Cry of the Predator - 10s fear that only works on beasts with a 1minute CD
Trap/Snare - only used ooc with a 1minute CD
Combat Traps (player made) - 5minute CD

How are you locking down a troll without traiting trapper? At most on a troll you can cc it for 45s (Bard's -> Distracting -> Dazing -> Bard's?) and then you're just stuck with Bard's, which has a 15s (16.5s including induction) waiting period where that troll is not CC'd in anyway. If you're using a both traps, with 45s more cc time, and can maybe put another two Bard's on the troll. But how are you dealing with the other two trolls on your own?

Trapper traited and with the DS cooldown legacy on a bow for -15s I can understand locking down two targets indefinitely.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

Hunter's have two dazes, and no stuns.

Distracting Shot - lasting 10s with a 3minute CD and Dazing Blow - lasting 5s with a 1minute CD
Bard's Arrow - 15s fear that only works on evil mobs with a 30s CD
Cry of the Predator - 10s fear that only works on beasts with a 1minute CD
Trap/Snare - only used ooc with a 1minute CD
Combat Traps (player made) - 5minute CD

How are you locking down a troll without traiting trapper? At most on a troll you can cc it for 45s (Bard's -> Distracting -> Dazing -> Bard's?) and then you're just stuck with Bard's, which has a 15s (16.5s including induction) waiting period where that troll is not CC'd in anyway. If you're using a both traps, with 45s more cc time, and can maybe put another two Bard's on the troll. But how are you dealing with the other two trolls on your own?

Trapper traited and with the DS cooldown legacy on a bow for -15s I can understand locking down two targets indefinitely.

I use the trapper armor from the Ox-Clan which gives me a shorter cool down on BA but with no CC legacies. You can BA - DS - BA - DB - BA - DS - BA - DB - BA pretty well, especially if you drop slows on them in Strength. Once you start popping in legacies and trait to yellow, you get shorter cool downs, longer lasting effects, exploding arrow capstone, etc. This involves some kiting and the like, but I don't consider CCing to just me standing there hitting them with the occasional fear or stun. I mean keeping a mob out of the fight and from being a threat. So that might mean I have to put a slow on them, kite them around for a bit, then fear them on their merry way. My point is, staying alive as long as I have power without actually killing the troll.

I didn't mean to say I was doing all three trolls by myself. I'm referencing doing the quest with a couple other people. As long as they focus on killing the trolls, when I'm fully yellow I can pretty much keep two trolls down for the whole fight. If I'm set up for just normal DPS, I can easily keep 1 troll out of the fight.

Originally Posted by Widoch

I use the trapper armor from the Ox-Clan which gives me a shorter cool down on BA but with no CC legacies. You can BA - DS - BA - DB - BA - DS - BA - DB - BA pretty well, especially if you drop slows on them in Strength. Once you start popping in legacies and trait to yellow, you get shorter cool downs, longer lasting effects, exploding arrow capstone, etc. This involves some kiting and the like, but I don't consider CCing to just me standing there hitting them with the occasional fear or stun. I mean keeping a mob out of the fight and from being a threat. So that might mean I have to put a slow on them, kite them around for a bit, then fear them on their merry way. My point is, staying alive as long as I have power without actually killing the troll.

I didn't mean to say I was doing all three trolls by myself. I'm referencing doing the quest with a couple other people. As long as they focus on killing the trolls, when I'm fully yellow I can pretty much keep two trolls down for the whole fight. If I'm set up for just normal DPS, I can easily keep 1 troll out of the fight.

Either way DS still has a 3minute cooldown. I can totally understand ccing one troll though, but not with multiple DSs per troll. And again, hunters don't have any stuns :P, even though I wish we did, even if it was a 3-5s one.

Originally Posted by socom33

First off I don't see how this question is 'trolling' in any way (it could have been phrased better but that's beside the point).

snip

It's trolling. Go look at all his posts in burg forums.

Originally Posted by Thraxz1982

It's trolling. Go look at all his posts in burg forums.

I don't care what his other posts say, because this is a real issue in the game. It's very hard to find people who are good at their classes secondary role. He just decided to pick on hunters as the example.

Originally Posted by socom33

I don't care what his other posts say, because this is a real issue in the game. It's very hard to find people who are good at their classes secondary role. He just decided to pick on hunters as the example.

I'm pretty sure he intended it as a troll, but it has sparked a nice debate within the hunter community overall, which kudos are granted for that

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

I'm pretty sure he intended it as a troll, but it has sparked a nice debate within the hunter community overall, which kudos are granted for that

Oh no doubt but inside every troll post there is (usually) a grain of truth. Extract that grain and you both take away the pleasure of people trolling and turn it into a constructive argument. It did indeed spark a fairly healthy debate which is great given how most class forum threads concern the primary role of a class.

Back when you got S3Ms I once ran Library of Tham Mirdain with a pug Hunter and he refused to remove the nasty stackable Poison DoT. When asked why not his reply was that he is dps and refuses to do poison removal and any form of cc or aggro management. He just wants to go out there and kill kill kill.

Next mob of Pale-folk I pst the healer not to heal the Hunter. Hunter starts attacking, I sheild-wall the healer and do nothing else. Hunter dies. Hunter starts swearing, followed by a rage quit. Given a dismissal would've been nicer it would not have been nearly as gratifying.

How does this relate to Hunters not wanting to do cc? Because most Hunters only want to dps.

Occassionally I meet the odd Hunter that will actually use fear arrows, mez stuff (I think, I dunno), root stuff, etc.. it always catches me off guard and the first few to half dozen times probably break them out myself. Once I get used to it I'll pull the rest of the mob away from the cc'd target(s).

Oh okay, that makes sense. Thanks.

Firstly, I am a hunter... only lv39 but...

I cannot understand why a hunter would NOT want to remove poison. Anything that a mob puts onto you that either damages you or reduces your stats mean you are not able to perform as effectively as you otherwise might. When soloing (at I mostly do atm) as soon as I am poisoned I will cure myself immediately or depending on mob wait til end of fight.

but the logic is.... if poisoned then cure!

My point is... we might be DPS but we have other utility functions which we should all use. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the whole basket.

What the poison does is necessary to know whether to cure it. There are also many other factors such as whether there are other debuffs in the fight or how important dps is for the fight. I will usually cure poisons if they stun on expiration, or if the DoT is large, especially if there are other poisons or debuffs that need to be potted. If it's a one time deal, forget it, pot it yourself, I don't even cure my own poisons in such cases as I don't like waiting for the cure animation.

A prime example of this is the shadow T2 trash. Healers and tanks often have to blow pots on silences to get off vital skills, since they have no other way to cure the -50% inc healing poisons I'm happy to cure them. Champs, hunters, and other class that don't have to worry about silence can pot it themselves, so I don't bother.

Originally Posted by Smugo

What the poison does is necessary to know whether to cure it. There are also many other factors such as whether there are other debuffs in the fight or how important dps is for the fight. I will usually cure poisons if they stun on expiration, or if the DoT is large, especially if there are other poisons or debuffs that need to be potted. If it's a one time deal, forget it, pot it yourself, I don't even cure my own poisons in such cases as I don't like waiting for the cure animation.

A prime example of this is the shadow T2 trash. Healers and tanks often have to blow pots on silences to get off vital skills, since they have no other way to cure the -50% inc healing poisons I'm happy to cure them. Champs, hunters, and other class that don't have to worry about silence can pot it themselves, so I don't bother.

Exactly this. some people start whining as soon as any greeny colour debuff appears. If it is a significant poison I'll try to cure it.. if it's not, then I'll leave it. It's not reluctance to use the skill really it's just a judgement call. Same as any other class does when someone has a fear or wound etc. Hunters are no different. I rarely cure my own poisons using the skill, unless I'm concerned abt the cooldowns I'll always pot.

Because most Hunters only want to dps.

I do not agree with this. The hunters I know are more than happy to do whatever needs to be done to succeed.

With a lore master main I don't blame hunters for not wanting to CC. CC is the most -AGGRAVATING- thing to do in game i go on my hunter to avoid that aggrvation. Its like a stunned/dazed/rotted mob suddenly gets a huge neon HIT ME sign. People suddenly Ignore the huge troll beating on their ###, run OVER to a mezzed mob and wake it up. Then comes the " Why couldn't you CC that?! Your our CC person!" Umm I had it CC's every 15 seconds when my cool down ran out and even got in some roots. YOU ALL kept waking it up! Even my SKIRMISH partner knows not to do that! And that's sad.

The fact I've had my CC broken by hunters and burgs is what confuses me. They have CC as well I would have thought they knew what the dizzy not moving goblin means or why the troll suddenly stopped moving. I know there ARE good cc hunters, Ive met a few but there are others who have the champ mentality of " KILL IT DEAD! KILL IT --ALL-- DEAD!" and its obvious if you asked them what CC was they'd think it meant Coca-Cola.

Now as for the hunter problem. Most people don't bring hunters specifically for CC.they normally go for LM's or burgs for the CC they go for hunters for the DPS to take down single mobs quickly to allow the captains more Defeat responses giving more buffs or heals and taking one more pain out of the equation quickly with the pew pew. Tho I have seen some VERY good hunters who helped set up with traps and used limited CC to help the lore and burg and help protect the healer in the back. You can be a good hunter focusing on DPS though I think it takes a really great hunter to be able to tell when to DROP the dps for some CC to prevent the wipe.