Thread: Why is asking a hunter to cc like insulting his mother?

I kinda would like to know this. Because i dont judge a hunter by his DPS but by his CC ability. Most of you can DPS buy how many of you can fear a target that resisted the burg mez before it gets to your healer? how many can CC like a LM on trash pulls in t2 whenn needed?

so many fail hunters. were are the good ones?

When using a Hunter as CC, it is also important to realise that any other player is most likely gonna mess it up for them.

A hunter has 4 CC abilities:

Rain of Thorns: Maximum 10 targets with LI maxed, any hit will break the root

Cry of the Predator: Only works on Beasts.. Not spiders or insects

Bard's Arrow: Only works on Humanoid mobs

In Combat Traps: Max 3 traps (4 if not in combat) again any hit will break trap

They also have 2 mez skills

1 ranged and 1 melee. Both of these are easily broken by other players

If you are gonna blame a hunter for not protecting the Mincer, then it is the leaders fault for not giving proper class duties
The amount of times I have seen hunters blamed for any mistake in a raid is unreal.
90% of these mistakes are mostly caused by the leader or some melee class messing up the Hunters Root

The vast majority of Hunters will protect the Minstrel at all costs.
But the vast majority of Raid Leaders will blame the hunter for not protecting them

To say most hunters have the DPS part down is a lie.

I'm ok when the leader tells me to use any of my cc on a monster, whether it's in the beginning of a fight or as part of a CC order. But don't expect me to cc mobs when they charge the healer, let the champ aggro those mobs or let the ones that stun/daze/riddled those mobs take care of it :P

Sure in small groups/fellowships when the need is high, then i can daze/root a mob that comes to the healer, but in a raid there are enough other players to do it.

Hunter CC is quite decent, especially against the adaptation mobs in ToO T2. The only problem I've had when ccing (and I almost always cc the trash pulls) is other people breaking my mezzes due to champ aoe, or due to the induction time on my distracting shot/Bard's arrow.

The main problem when cc traited on trash pulls is the terrible DPS when switching to the dps target to burn. It takes longer and can wipe a raid if you can't burn fast enough while watching two other mez targets as well to keep them down.

I have done ToO T2 trash on my hunter a grand total of 6 times (too busy), and been a CC'er on 5 of 6. So, hunters as back up mez to a burg CC? maybe a non CC traited hunter should fear a miss/resist but usually there are plenty to go around and killing the first mob is key, Burgs have ready and able afterall, in my experience, generally we have a burg to cover the loss of a hunter miss/resist. Why would you expect a hunter to be on the money switching to minorly cover a resist when Burgs have far better tools for the job? Burgs have instant cast..at the minimum you are waiting about 1.5 seconds for a hunter to catch a miss and thats if he is really hot off the mark, communication and latency will mostly push that over 2 seconds, possibly more. Burg hears miss/resist..zip, no induction, just the second it takes to aquire. Planning is key.

Originally Posted by Malindruel

When using a Hunter as CC, it is also important to realise that any other player is most likely gonna mess it up for them.

A hunter has 4 CC abilities:

Rain of Thorns: Maximum 10 targets with LI maxed, any hit will break the root

Cry of the Predator: Only works on Beasts.. Not spiders or insects

Bard's Arrow: Only works on Humanoid mobs

In Combat Traps: Max 3 traps (4 if not in combat) again any hit will break trap

They also have 2 mez skills

1 ranged and 1 melee. Both of these are easily broken by other players

If you are gonna blame a hunter for not protecting the Mincer, then it is the leaders fault for not giving proper class duties
The amount of times I have seen hunters blamed for any mistake in a raid is unreal.
90% of these mistakes are mostly caused by the leader or some melee class messing up the Hunters Root

The vast majority of Hunters will protect the Minstrel at all costs.
But the vast majority of Raid Leaders will blame the hunter for not protecting them

This is a problem for EVERY CC class. LM mezzes are... oh breakable. LM roots are.. breakable. Burglar mezzes are.. oh that's right breakable.

And I'm pretty sure the root from ROT isn't 100% break on damage (but it's possible that my grd is missing an absurd amount too).

As to DutchEZmoder's comment, the mentality "oh, that's not my job. Someone else will get it." is one of the leading causes of failure and frustration. Also if you get a fear on it, it gives the others in the raid more time to locate it and get it under control. Yes, the same result as if a champ challenged it off but then no one is taking extra damage.

How many hunters can cc like an LM? None we are cc secondary not primary, I don't think I would measure a player's skill level by their ability to do their secondary skill. That said most hunters know little of their cc because they don't even know they have it, or haven't trained themselves to use it. Skirmishes are really good practice for that. The issue with hunters not learning to use their cc is leveling doesn't require them to use it and we get those skills in the latter half of leveling and have learned to survive in most cases without them. I think by lvl 30-40 we have cemented our playing style and then we are giving the cc skills and just overlook them. I only really learned to use them because our mits made us so vulnerable and really forced me to think control that second or third mob instead of turn up the dps or run for your life.

Realistically, In ToO T2 a cc traited hunter would appear to be the best option for the trash mobs with adaptation, when you consider the fact that the hunter (when traited) has a longer total duration of cc than both a burg and a LM (with a 20 second fear and a 30 second daze) it would appear that the hunter is the best choice for say, keeping a taskmaster locked down for as long as possible in lightning trash. Even more interesting, with the distracting shot cooldown legacy and 3 piece gontrhadir, I've found myself to be able to permanently lock down two separate mobs with some very careful induction timing, which all goes to say that when an individual knows what they are doing, a cc hunter can be just as effective as either a burg or an LM. However I will concede that traiting cc does indeed gimp our damage immensely, and as such, is an extremely situational ability (pretty much only useful in some orthanc trash pulls as mentioned before) and I would in no way advocate using yellow line as the main focus of a hunter's build which can perhaps explain some of the stigma attached to having hunters cc. But perhaps the biggest reason for the animosity, is the fact that many hunters simply do not realize the potential in our cc abilities whether through ignorance, or sheer refusal to trait in a manner that they deem "useless".

Originally Posted by DrumMajorC

Realistically, In ToO T2 a cc traited hunter would appear to be the best option for the trash mobs with adaptation, when you consider the fact that the hunter (when traited) has a longer total duration of cc than both a burg and a LM (with a 20 second fear and a 30 second daze) it would appear that the hunter is the best choice for say, keeping a taskmaster locked down for as long as possible in lightning trash. Even more interesting, with the distracting shot cooldown legacy and 3 piece gontrhadir, I've found myself to be able to permanently lock down two separate mobs with some very careful induction timing, which all goes to say that when an individual knows what they are doing, a cc hunter can be just as effective as either a burg or an LM. However I will concede that traiting cc does indeed gimp our damage immensely, and as such, is an extremely situational ability (pretty much only useful in some orthanc trash pulls as mentioned before) and I would in no way advocate using yellow line as the main focus of a hunter's build which can perhaps explain some of the stigma attached to having hunters cc. But perhaps the biggest reason for the animosity, is the fact that many hunters simply do not realize the potential in our cc abilities whether through ignorance, or sheer refusal to trait in a manner that they deem "useless".

I agree completely. Hunter CC in T2 ToO is second to none if the mob has adaptation. Not only can we mez for 50s, we can also root for another 30s if needed to do some quick ccing if a healer/tank goes down. With my CC bow (DS cooldown to 15s, Evade/block/DS resistance rating buffed up) and 7k+ finesse for trash pulls, hunters are definitely my choice for ccing multiple targets in a timely manner.

However, I've never had to trait trapper EVER any other time besides orthanc trash pulls. We need a crowd control line that is useful beyond thursday/friday/weekend raiding days for the stuff before the boss.

Originally Posted by Malindruel

Bard's Arrow: Only works on Humanoid mobs

Unless it was a bug, I've gotten Bard's arrow to work on the hunting dogs in the Gap of Rohan since it works on evil mobs, which is usually humanoid.

Originally Posted by Malindruel

The vast majority of Hunters will protect the Minstrel at all costs.
But the vast majority of Raid Leaders will blame the hunter for not protecting them

screw that, the mini can die before i decide to tank the mob for a total of .2 secs before i die...the mini can tank the mobs for all i care as long as i dont die idc who has aggro

I usually do what I can to protect the healer when a mob runs towards him, but there are several problems to hunter CC. First of all, most ppl are used to hunters being pure dps and if a hunter suggests going CC in a raid it's usually not something the raid leader will appreciate. Ppl are not aware that hunters can be good CCs so they usually ask for a burg or an lm instead (I can see the point in this with respect to power as both burg and lm can support the raid with power when in need, either through a cj or through a skill). However, it's sometimes a nightmare to be a CC hunter in a pug team. I also remember many times suggesting that I could CC (in a group that clearly lacked CC) the others laughed at the very idea of a CC hunter and dismissed it without ever giving it a chance. Often been told that hunters never should be anything else than dps in raids. I enjoy CC-role as a hunter but given that ppl always choose lms/burgs over hunters as CC, I've taken to only go CC when I get in a group that's in desperate need of CC.
I think the reason many hunters don't do CC at all is that they've been trained from their first groups that they're not allowed to explore the CC line in a group if there's any other choice of class for CC.

However CC isn't easy either unless you've got a really well-coordinated group.

I remember a rift raid where I was asked to CC the healer adds at the first boss. But whenever I CC'ed one of the champs would run over and AoE the mob. This happened regardless where I CC'ed the mob and problem is that if the CC fails then I'm the one likely to get blamed for it. I remember CC'ing the mob 30m away from the mobs the champs were supposed to AoE and still that same champ came running after the healer and freed it from my CC.

The thing here is that unless you have an attentive raid leader (he's got a lot to watch and doesn't always check up on whether everyone is where they're supposed to be, especially not if everyone had agreed upon roles in the fight before starting) the hunter doing the CC will get blamed for the mob that got loose instead of the one who actually freed it.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

so many fail hunters. were are the good ones?

Looking to branch out from trolling the burglar forums, I see.....

Everyone needs a hobby.

Many hunters prefer not to trait full cc for the DPS nerf. But if you are having trouble finding those who will when needed, perhaps run with better players? Most hunters I play with, will trait CC if/when it is needed.

But if burg riddles are getting resisted that often, finding better burgs could be an option too.

Sadly, this is why my cc abilities typically do not extend outside of kin runs where everyone knows what is going on

a plan is most important... whenever we do a raid there is a plan on what gets cc'd when how why etc and eveyone knows whats going on, communication doesnt hurt either if theres a resist... hunter cc is fine and ive done it lots in OD and TOO... Fear is nice it generally forces the target away from the action where u can the lock it down with the distract shot. As for moors also cc is nice ive gone in raids in Tof with the ent trap pieces that reset my distract shot which is also reduced to 15s I focus on Wl's and defilers so it slows their healing...

Oh crud we haven't been feeding our Burg Forum troll as much lately and he must have come over here looking for food!

Sorry Hunters! We'll try to keep a better eye on ifreborn1!

Originally Posted by bambubambubambu

Oh crud we haven't been feeding our Burg Forum troll as much lately and he must have come over here looking for food!

Sorry Hunters! We'll try to keep a better eye on ifreborn1!

Why thanks, we really appreciate your concern and assistance.
+Rep

why?

because our mother told us that CC is for the advanced classes. (hunter is a beginner/moderate class) and more importantly: CC doesn't put bacon on the table.

When they fix our trapper trait line, I let u know how many will CC you

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I kinda would like to know this. Because i dont judge a hunter by his DPS but by his CC ability. Most of you can DPS buy how many of you can fear a target that resisted the burg mez before it gets to your healer? how many can CC like a LM on trash pulls in t2 whenn needed?

so many fail hunters. were are the good ones?

Hunter CC is mostly induction gated. Why are you asking the Hunter to fear after a resist when you probably have Minstrels in the group?

And they can't lock down a mob unless traited Yellow, for which there is no reason to ever be traited. Why don't you yell at the Burg for not using R&A and mezzing the mob again? Or CJ-ing it and trying to mez it via a gamble thingy. Or just tank it with KO/TNG until some other CC is available.

Originally Posted by Malindruel

Bard's Arrow: Only works on Humanoid mobs

It works on any 'evil' mob. So it'd work vs Trolls, Wargs, etc.

Originally Posted by bambubambubambu

Oh crud we haven't been feeding our Burg Forum troll as much lately and he must have come over here looking for food!

Sorry Hunters! We'll try to keep a better eye on ifreborn1!

They must not be feeding him in the RK forums either.

I'd prefer to have a burg or LM doing the cc'ing, hunters doing the dps'ing. Under ideal circumstances, that is. If the hunter notices a mob going for the heals, I'd expect him to stop it, as heals are kinda more important than dps(usually). Now if the inc. damage is low, and the mini has time, he can deal with a mob himself, or just bring it to the ball for the champ to grab. It depends a LOT on circumstances. If it's a 3-man and the mini is simply crankin out heals to keep you alive, then yea, the hunter should definitely keep mobs off him.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I kinda would like to know this. Because i dont judge a hunter by his DPS but by his CC ability. Most of you can DPS buy how many of you can fear a target that resisted the burg mez before it gets to your healer? how many can CC like a LM on trash pulls in t2 whenn needed?

so many fail hunters. were are the good ones?

I have both a level capped hunter and a LM, and have played them in equal doses when doing raids - do NOT expect a hunter to do the CC a LM can do or with the same ease that a LM can CC and you will come out ahead. A LM's primary function in a group is to provide crowd control and debuffs - so you are comparing apples with oranges. (Some LMs may be asked or choose to trait red and run the LM in DPS mode but no way an LM's DPS is going to outshine that of any other DPS class in that function).

That being said, hunter CC skills are quite adequate when needed. But to get them even close to LM level, a hunter needs to be legacied for CC on his/her weapons and adept at running yellow traits to boost CC effectiveness, which few hunters are going to do at the expense of DPS.... Aside from this, if you are judging a hunter's worth by their CC alone rather than how they handle their DPS in a group, you are overlooking what a hunter's primary role is supposed to be. When all is said and done a dead mob is also a CC'd mob - a skilled dps hunter in a raid should assure that without missing a beat.

As far as ToO - I have provided CC in there on my hunter and it has never been an issue, so perhaps your group needs a bit better communication and coordination of who is going to be doing what should anything go awry - which inevitably it will if people do not understand their roles and how important CC is to the group as a whole - not just the minstrel.

Well, based on the rest of the posts on this thread, it seems the same conclusion has been reached. That being, a hunter can cc effectively when they know what they are doing and traited yellow line with the proper legs on their weapons, and that there are virtually zero places a hunter would ever bother traiting for this outside of a kinship raid in ToO T2 where everyone knows the strategy that is being used and is hopefully self conscious enough to not break cc. And in the end, a hunter should not be judged by his cc abilities considering that is not our primary role and there are so few situations that actually call on us to use it, nor are cc'ed mobs what we spend time looking at in groups, my two cents anyway. :P

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

Why don't you yell at the Burg for not using R&A and mezzing the mob again? Or CJ-ing it and trying to mez it via a gamble thingy. Or just tank it with KO/TNG until some other CC is available.

Of course. Then again R&A might be down. Long cool-down. Also, they might not be traited Gambler. However, with high finesse, an actual resist is pretty rare. Which was my question about the OP rolling with better burgs. .. And if they're that worried about a resist, they can trait Complicated Terms. I'd say in most cases where I get a resist, it's more often due to getting the timing slightly wrong, and it being an immunity, not a resist. For example the trolls on the trash in T2 lightning go through a pounding animation, and then go after whomever is their aggro target on exiting that. They can be re-mezzed, but continue to be immune for a second or three even after they exit their drama phase. Whether this is by design or buggy programming, I don't know. However, yeah, you can stun it, then FM it and keep it down for the majority of the time for Riddle to come off of cool-down. Or a hunter/mini/can fear it, or short, non-traited mez it. As long as the group is thinking on its feet, I see no huge reason to have our hunters trait trapper. In fact, we really need them to be burning things down quickly.

Originally Posted by Ceremony

When they fix our trapper trait line, I let u know how many will CC you

This


Retraiting trapper also limits survivability in a sense because you give up being able to kill things before they get to you.

Also I personally dislike using RoT except in circumstances where the group asks for it/expects it's coming... since agro almost always seems to switch to me from it, right after the mobs come out of it. Same sort of problem other CC'ers have of course, as is people breaking the CC, as has already been mentioned.

Bard's Arrow: Only works on Humanoid mobs

Just like to point out this isn't correct. If it was, how would I solo spiders in LG?

For the OP, there are plenty of good CCing hunters. Perhaps you need to get better at letting them know what you expect of them. It's not often we're asked to play the CC roll, but I enjoy it. You also have to understand, that a majority of boss mobs in this game are immune to all hunter CC, so don't ask one to do that. Trash pulls on the other hand, we can handle just fine.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I kinda would like to know this. Because i dont judge a hunter by his DPS but by his CC ability. Most of you can DPS buy how many of you can fear a target that resisted the burg mez before it gets to your healer? how many can CC like a LM on trash pulls in t2 whenn needed?

so many fail hunters. were are the good ones?

So many failures trying to put the blame for their stupidity on the hunter. Where are the people who use their brains? Not here obviously.

Bards Arrow? Sure it's nice - provided people stay clear of it's result. Sadly non-hunters, being idiots who blame their mistakes on others, tend to chase fleeing mobs to hit them. Even if doing so means chasing the mobs into a patrol or out of range/ LOS the healers. Of course the later only matters if they intend to keep the aggro - rare since most just go ape trying to be Rambo and kill the mob on their own. Oh and of course it's the hunter who gets blamed for the deaths that result instead of the idiot who ran after a feared mob trying to pad their standing on a meter.

Rain of Thorns? Sure it's nice - if people understand that with a 3 minute cooldown it's once per fight. That means if someone throws an AoE after it's down there is no reapplying it and everything is headed right for the hunter. Plus some hunters (me being one of them) are freaking sick of watching idiots run into a rooted pack to attack something in the middle only to get clobbered because of ignorance. I've lost count of how many time I've given the "if a mob is rooted and you are the closest thing it can attack, it WILL attack you moron!" talk to a group only to have the same idiots do it again and again. Usually hitting whatever AoE they can in the process which sends all those mobs right after the healer who then blames the hunter for not saving their hide. I won't even begin to describe how sad I was when I learned that after using it to root a pack of ranged mobs, instead of breaking one out at a time and using LOS to bring it into melee, the rule here was "charge in like screaming ######s and hit everything."

Distracting Shot? It's okay, except that the hunter gives up 5 of his class and 2/3s of her legendary slots (BoTR again), to make it more than once per fight (whole 3 minute CD again) and last longer than 10 seconds. Plus it takes time to fire so it's not exactly something that can be used instantly. Given the "omg mob not tanked! HIT IT HIT IT!" mentality in this game a hunter who uses it once will see it broken and not have it again. Even if the hunter invests heavily into the skill, it's still something that is likely to be broken, repeatedly, and can't just be reapplied on a whim.

Cry of the Predator has a really "fun" limitation - animal (ie beast) only. Doesn't work on spiders, humans, orcs, drakes, or anything else. Not much call for CCing beasts outside of solo when most are the weakest mob in a group. Plus it has all the "fleeing mob - HIT IT HIT IT!" problems that Bard's Arrow has. With a 1 minute cooldown on top of it and a short range.

Dazing Blow doesn't even count. It's a melee-ranged daze (not a stun) that lasts 5 seconds with a 1 minute cooldown. Just long enough for a hunter to use it, see it broken by someone else, and wonder why they even bothered. It's more useful as a way to rip corruptions off of targets over 50% morale than as CC. At best it's a last-ditch skill to buy a few seconds to run towards the tank and hope they're paying attention for once in their lives.

Traps would be great, assuming the hunter traits for them and the group understands roots. Too bad that most of the problems with Rain of Thorns apply here (except the once-per-fight bit... sometimes). Do you really want to know how many times I've trapped a mob and shifted position to lay a second, only to see some brain-dead squishy or champion stand next to the trapped mob and get killed because they wouldn't back up 3 steps? And traps have the extra problem that the mob has to move onto them to work. I've put down tripwires, crafted traps, and basic traps only to see the minstrel or rune keeper screaming "get it off!" not move 2 steps to bring the mob into the trap. I won't bother to describe how many times I've put down a string of traps including a tripwire, triple-trap, and regular trap and tagged the mob that is supposed to die first with a snare only for the group to run right up to the first mob to hit a trap and fight everything right there.

Plus all of this assumes the hunter is pretty much dedicated to crowd control. Bards Arrow and Rain of Thorns both consume a legendary trait slot. Traps being usable in combat at requires Combat Traps be slotted. If you don't want those traps or Rain of Thorns breaking right away from stray AE the hunter needs to slot Sturdy Traps. Getting Distracting Shot to a useful cooldown requires yet another legendary slot plus 3 more class trait slots. Even better when one considers that groups get really pissy if the hunter has power problems because they didn't slot Bow of the Righteous and Press Onward due to not having extra legendary slots. Oh and since you obviously aren't a hunter, you might not know that a hunter who traits that deeply in Trapper of Foes will lose quite a bit of damage. Damage that the group expects the hunter to deliver at all times without complaint about running out of power. Maybe the problem isn't that the hunters aren't CCing. It could just be that you expect the hunters to retrait every fight just so you can be a "nice guy" and not tell your LMs that they can for once ####can their AoE spam and use the CC they neglect.

This whose "debate" happens every game. And like every other time, the people crying "why aren't you using your CC!?!" are the same ones who keep breaking it whenever the class they scream at does use it. Then the one time they want the hunter to use it because it's their hide that is about to die, they get all self-righteous and preachy when the hunter doesn't have it.

To me it sounds like karma decided it's time they paid their debts, and like a criminal caught with the smoking gun in their hand and the body still warm, they can't believe they did something wrong.

You sir have been given rep.


Just the other day, I was in a group running Foundry. We had two hunters in the group and at one point we were fighting trash in one of the hallways and our tank went down due to some lag issues. Our group was using Vent to chat and so the other hunter and I (who duo fight stuff in LG all the time together so we're quite good at team CC) start organizing CC between the two of us to give the tank time to either release and come back, or wait for us to CC and burn everything down and give him a rez out of combat. We had a Mini, a new 75 champ with poor gear, and a burg in our group with two hunters and a guard. There were I think maybe 5 or 6 mobs still alive at this point.

We start talking, I call out one mob and hit him with BA to fear, the other hunter hits a second mob with BA to fear, I pick a third mob to DS him and the second hunter keeps his DS free for when that third mob comes up. (We both have the Ox Clan gear that gives us a faster cooldown on BA). So, we now have 3 of 5 mobs out of the fight pretty much for the next 60 seconds. Our group should be able to mow down the other two with no problems. But no...people can't pay attention and as soon as the two feared mobs start running away, they're both attacked by someone, fear is broken, and my mez on the third mob is broken. Needless to say, we wipe.

Someone in the group actually had the nerve to say something like, "two hunters in the group, and we couldn't CC 4 freaking mobs?" I just kept my mouth shut so I wouldn't get reported for cussing the moron out...

Two well traited hunters can EASILY CC 3 or 4 mobs if the rest of you will just PAY FREAKING ATTENTION!

@EvilTreerat

+rep
You've just perfectly described most pugs I've been in and also the problem with CC as a hunter.

On the bright side though, one of my funnier times in lotro was in fact with a random champ in Lhimlight. We've been competing for the same mobs so in the end grouped (I'd been in dps thinking he could tank but found out fast his survivability was non-existant). I decided to trait trapper since dps wasn't working well in the group. I've never ever seen anything like that before. Whenever I used a CC he'd hurry over and break it regardless of everything. I remember seeing him low on health and fearing the mob to give him a chance to recover. He'd been running away from it and the moment I feared it, he set off after it and hit it resulting in his own death.

Basically it was completly irrelevant what CC I used, he'd go and break it instantly. If I trapped the mobs (traited so it took him a while to actually free it despite trying his very best) he'd stand next to it and attack. Because of his continual dying and returning I ended up with a solid hold of aggro and him breaking every CC still telling me that he'd tank it. Bit laughable but it was great training in managing CC cds perfectly. While I was getting slightly annoyed at the champ I also couldn't help but laugh at the entire situation, the hunter with solid hold of aggro and CC and the champ constantly breaking the CC and telling me that he'd take the aggro (that never happened but we won in the end anyway). Must admit though 2nd or possibly 3rd time he got himself killed by standing next to the trapped mob I was almost delighted since I was starting to wonder how I'd manage to get enough CCs off cd in time to save myself when he freed it again.

To this day I'm amazed he never realized the idea of allowing me to keep the mob off him when he was low on health despite the fact that he took at least 3 deaths during the fight and I never died and also at the fact that he never once let a single CC actually stay active despite me shouting at him to recover health before freeing the mob again and allowing me some time for cds. But on the bright side, I had fun and I also like to think that I got better at CC from being in that group and really having to think about which skills to use and matching correctly the rotation to always have at least 1 CC off cd at all times. (occationally had to slow and kite though when I ran out of CC)

Edit: nearly forgot. Funniest part was when he was standing next to the trapped mob and hitting it. I had aggro I could see (through the combat options I have active I could see the mob looking at me) but the mob was hitting him because it couldn't reach me due to the root and the champ then assured me that he now had the aggro. That nearly had me rolling on the floor with laughter (probably would have been if not for the fact that I knew the mob would be on me as soon as the trap broke :P)

He never learned but he served well as evening entertainment for me

Originally Posted by Widoch

(snip snap snip)
Someone in the group actually had the nerve to say something like, "two hunters in the group, and we couldn't CC 4 freaking mobs?" I just kept my mouth shut so I wouldn't get reported for cussing the moron out...

Two well traited hunters can EASILY CC 3 or 4 mobs if the rest of you will just PAY FREAKING ATTENTION!

The last three words are the part that is beyond the majority of players here. It's amazing how many times I've been in a group that wipes because someone didn't notice something as obvious as "hey, the mobs are transferring damage." It's almost as if people are being deliberate idiots so they can blame the failure on someone else. I've played alongside grade-school age kids in WoW who were more aware of what was going on around their character than most players here.

Oh and my guess for the guilty party with the anti-hunter comment; the champion or the minstrel. When someone starts the blame game I find it tends to be the "treat with kid gloves" healer or the guy who broke the CC. The burglar should have known better from personal experience.

Originally Posted by Dawnsinger

(snip snap snip)

Edit: nearly forgot. Funniest part was when he was standing next to the trapped mob and hitting it. I had aggro I could see (through the combat options I have active I could see the mob looking at me) but the mob was hitting him because it couldn't reach me due to the root and the champ then assured me that he now had the aggro. That nearly had me rolling on the floor with laughter (probably would have been if not for the fact that I knew the mob would be on me as soon as the trap broke :P)

He never learned but he served well as evening entertainment for me

That showcases exactly what I mean about roots and idiots. What I find truly pathetic is that the "root makes aggro shift to closest target" mechanic is as old as Everquest. It was one of the first tricks rangers learned for controlling aggro - root the mob and the tank would get right into it's face to instantly peel it from an enchanter. A tactic that old, that refined to the point it's almost cliche, and yet in a game where players go about talking about how "mature" and "skilled" they are - people simply do not understand the concept. Even after dying multiple times because of it.

I am glad you at least got a few laughs out of his stupidity. Even more so that he died multiple times due to that stupidity. I keep saying that the only reason idiots exist is to be laughed at. Well that and used as single-use mine detectors but that part tends to make people upset when said out loud.

Oh and rep for both of you. Unfortunately you dared to agree with someone (me) who tends to say the things about people that they don't want to hear. Hopefully it should offset any nerd-rage negative rep sent your ways. Sad that such must be done but such is the way of MMO forums where he who screams the loudest and has the most sycophants has the highest rating.

Not our fault, Turbine screwed us over with ###### traits and ###### skills. My hat is off to all you good CC hunters out there, because honestly, I suck.

Edit: OK so I guess we are okay at small groups and full fellows, but not for raids. It's just to hard to CC a target as a hunter and keep him CC'd (my opinion) unless every single person in the raid is focused on one monster at a time or you have been asked to CC a specific mob and no one else may attack it. Our skills are okay, but literally every single CC is easy to break, and I know this has been said a thousand times, but REDO OUR CC TRAIT LINE TURBINE!!!!! That's all.

People playing hunters with groups when we try to CC...

Originally Posted by EvilTreerat

So many failures trying to put the blame for their stupidity on the hunter. Where are the people who use their brains? Not here obviously.

Bards Arrow? Sure it's nice - provided people stay clear of it's result. Sadly non-hunters, being idiots who blame their mistakes on others, tend to chase fleeing mobs to hit them. Even if doing so means chasing the mobs into a patrol or out of range/ LOS the healers. Of course the later only matters if they intend to keep the aggro - rare since most just go ape trying to be Rambo and kill the mob on their own. Oh and of course it's the hunter who gets blamed for the deaths that result instead of the idiot who ran after a feared mob trying to pad their standing on a meter.

Rain of Thorns? Sure it's nice - if people understand that with a 3 minute cooldown it's once per fight. That means if someone throws an AoE after it's down there is no reapplying it and everything is headed right for the hunter. Plus some hunters (me being one of them) are freaking sick of watching idiots run into a rooted pack to attack something in the middle only to get clobbered because of ignorance. I've lost count of how many time I've given the "if a mob is rooted and you are the closest thing it can attack, it WILL attack you moron!" talk to a group only to have the same idiots do it again and again. Usually hitting whatever AoE they can in the process which sends all those mobs right after the healer who then blames the hunter for not saving their hide. I won't even begin to describe how sad I was when I learned that after using it to root a pack of ranged mobs, instead of breaking one out at a time and using LOS to bring it into melee, the rule here was "charge in like screaming ######s and hit everything."

Distracting Shot? It's okay, except that the hunter gives up 5 of his class and 2/3s of her legendary slots (BoTR again), to make it more than once per fight (whole 3 minute CD again) and last longer than 10 seconds. Plus it takes time to fire so it's not exactly something that can be used instantly. Given the "omg mob not tanked! HIT IT HIT IT!" mentality in this game a hunter who uses it once will see it broken and not have it again. Even if the hunter invests heavily into the skill, it's still something that is likely to be broken, repeatedly, and can't just be reapplied on a whim.

Cry of the Predator has a really "fun" limitation - animal (ie beast) only. Doesn't work on spiders, humans, orcs, drakes, or anything else. Not much call for CCing beasts outside of solo when most are the weakest mob in a group. Plus it has all the "fleeing mob - HIT IT HIT IT!" problems that Bard's Arrow has. With a 1 minute cooldown on top of it and a short range.

Dazing Blow doesn't even count. It's a melee-ranged daze (not a stun) that lasts 5 seconds with a 1 minute cooldown. Just long enough for a hunter to use it, see it broken by someone else, and wonder why they even bothered. It's more useful as a way to rip corruptions off of targets over 50% morale than as CC. At best it's a last-ditch skill to buy a few seconds to run towards the tank and hope they're paying attention for once in their lives.

Traps would be great, assuming the hunter traits for them and the group understands roots. Too bad that most of the problems with Rain of Thorns apply here (except the once-per-fight bit... sometimes). Do you really want to know how many times I've trapped a mob and shifted position to lay a second, only to see some brain-dead squishy or champion stand next to the trapped mob and get killed because they wouldn't back up 3 steps? And traps have the extra problem that the mob has to move onto them to work. I've put down tripwires, crafted traps, and basic traps only to see the minstrel or rune keeper screaming "get it off!" not move 2 steps to bring the mob into the trap. I won't bother to describe how many times I've put down a string of traps including a tripwire, triple-trap, and regular trap and tagged the mob that is supposed to die first with a snare only for the group to run right up to the first mob to hit a trap and fight everything right there.

Plus all of this assumes the hunter is pretty much dedicated to crowd control. Bards Arrow and Rain of Thorns both consume a legendary trait slot. Traps being usable in combat at requires Combat Traps be slotted. If you don't want those traps or Rain of Thorns breaking right away from stray AE the hunter needs to slot Sturdy Traps. Getting Distracting Shot to a useful cooldown requires yet another legendary slot plus 3 more class trait slots. Even better when one considers that groups get really pissy if the hunter has power problems because they didn't slot Bow of the Righteous and Press Onward due to not having extra legendary slots. Oh and since you obviously aren't a hunter, you might not know that a hunter who traits that deeply in Trapper of Foes will lose quite a bit of damage. Damage that the group expects the hunter to deliver at all times without complaint about running out of power. Maybe the problem isn't that the hunters aren't CCing. It could just be that you expect the hunters to retrait every fight just so you can be a "nice guy" and not tell your LMs that they can for once ####can their AoE spam and use the CC they neglect.

This whose "debate" happens every game. And like every other time, the people crying "why aren't you using your CC!?!" are the same ones who keep breaking it whenever the class they scream at does use it. Then the one time they want the hunter to use it because it's their hide that is about to die, they get all self-righteous and preachy when the hunter doesn't have it.

To me it sounds like karma decided it's time they paid their debts, and like a criminal caught with the smoking gun in their hand and the body still warm, they can't believe they did something wrong.

Holy Wall of text...made it past first 10 words then i just gave u +rep for the effort =)

Originally Posted by DrumMajorC

Realistically, In ToO T2 a cc traited hunter would appear to be the best option for the trash mobs with adaptation, when you consider the fact that the hunter (when traited) has a longer total duration of cc than both a burg and a LM (with a 20 second fear and a 30 second daze) it would appear that the hunter is the best choice for say, keeping a taskmaster locked down for as long as possible in lightning trash. Even more interesting, with the distracting shot cooldown legacy and 3 piece gontrhadir, I've found myself to be able to permanently lock down two separate mobs with some very careful induction timing, which all goes to say that when an individual knows what they are doing, a cc hunter can be just as effective as either a burg or an LM. However I will concede that traiting cc does indeed gimp our damage immensely, and as such, is an extremely situational ability (pretty much only useful in some orthanc trash pulls as mentioned before) and I would in no way advocate using yellow line as the main focus of a hunter's build which can perhaps explain some of the stigma attached to having hunters cc. But perhaps the biggest reason for the animosity, is the fact that many hunters simply do not realize the potential in our cc abilities whether through ignorance, or sheer refusal to trait in a manner that they deem "useless".

Agree with all this, a hunter with explosive arrow and a properly traited cc bow was how we downed Gortheron T2C server first. 30s mez with a 15s cool down + 20s fear + beast fear + RoT + combat traps = win. If you have lots of DPS and not enough burgs or LMs, a reality for many kins, ask one of your 6 hunters to trait CC. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Also works well when you need to solo those 75k mobs in Limlight Gorge.

Originally Posted by Poppycock

Agree with all this, a hunter with explosive arrow and a properly traited cc bow was how we downed Gortheron T2C server first. 30s mez with a 15s cool down + 20s fear + beast fear + RoT + combat traps = win. If you have lots of DPS and not enough burgs or LMs, a reality for many kins, ask one of your 6 hunters to trait CC. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Also works well when you need to solo those 75k mobs in Limlight Gorge.

I'm a fleetness hunter with 5 Faron still turning over in my mind whether the following is useful to provide backup CC but only mildly gimped DPS:
[1] - remain 5 blue but trait Rain of Thorns, and two yellows: Strong Intimidation and Combat Traps.
[2] - drop Fleetness, trait Barbed Hindrance additionally and go 4b/3y to get the trap cooldowns and -RoT root resist but keep decent bow inductions and -penshot power. However, with no fleetness penshot spam suddenly goes out of the window - so I'd be more comfortable with option 1.

Originally Posted by Aedfrith

I'm a fleetness hunter with 5 Faron still turning over in my mind whether the following is useful to provide backup CC but only mildly gimped DPS:
[1] - remain 5 blue but trait Rain of Thorns, and two yellows: Strong Intimidation and Combat Traps.
[2] - drop Fleetness, trait Barbed Hindrance additionally and go 4b/3y to get the trap cooldowns and -RoT root resist but keep decent bow inductions and -penshot power. However, with no fleetness penshot spam suddenly goes out of the window - so I'd be more comfortable with option 1.

Without knowing what legendaries you're running: just switch out bow of the righteous or press onward for bard's arrow.

Combat traps are really really tricky to place unless you have aggro, because idiots rarely, if ever, go "Hey, I should probably run through this bright red circle on the floor. YEAAAAH NO I'LL AVOID IT."
If you have bard's arrow, you can throw one on it, and if it get's broken, it's not your fault. 15s should be more then enough to for a real CC to get it back under control, or, alternatively, for the dps group to start bringing it down.

@EvilTreerat: +rep explains my frustrations with the line as well as with idiots.

Originally Posted by Aedfrith

I'm a fleetness hunter with 5 Faron still turning over in my mind whether the following is useful to provide backup CC but only mildly gimped DPS:
[1] - remain 5 blue but trait Rain of Thorns, and two yellows: Strong Intimidation and Combat Traps.
[2] - drop Fleetness, trait Barbed Hindrance additionally and go 4b/3y to get the trap cooldowns and -RoT root resist but keep decent bow inductions and -penshot power. However, with no fleetness penshot spam suddenly goes out of the window - so I'd be more comfortable with option 1.

For what possible reason would you use combat traps?
All 70k mobs in the limlight can be soloed with nothing but bards arrow and slows, and they have many other issues if you try to do them in other situations (moors/raids)
The 2-set yellow bonus is utterly worthless unless you are totally CC focused, but using even one red trait will help keep up your DPS. RoT is rarely resisted due to finesse, and again, in combat traps are just not that useful compared to just bards.
Basically, I would suggest for off-cc taking strong intimidation (and maybe barbed hindrance) for off-CC, and slotting Bards as your primary tool.
If you are a primary CC then you have no choice, 5 yellow and capstone.

From my recent experience I can only assume people think hunters are kidding when they say they are CC'ing. Or are just trying to wind me up by chasing every feared thing and whacking anything standing around stunned.

'Hello, hello. Is this thing on? I said I was (doing x CC on Y).'

The problem with traiting 5 yellow in groups is you can't deal with the Big, no longer feared or stunned, Thing now charging down on you with super-awesome dps.

I suspect the problem is that hunter CC is almost never used (with good reason mostly). No one sees it or expects it. It's a shame as I've quite enjoyed developing the art in Limlight Gorge.