Thread: Dual wield or 2H for First Age lvl 75......

so this is part 5000 for the neverending question.

I have a worn symbol and since they are so rare i want to make the correct choice. I have been a fan of 2H for a while now but want to know which is better for level 75 First Age?

parses anyone?

Its probably not only a question of parses; between the lower power consumption and the -seeking blade cooldown from brutal strikes (red Orthanc set), a 2hander might be the more practical choice- for the raids at least.

Anyway, I got one, went from mostly dual wield to mostly 2hander and dont look back (overall damage IS considerably higher than the previous dual wield with a second ager). Then again, I´ve been blessed with a 5 major beauty.

I do not have a champ at this level, but between my guard and my hunter I have put some thought into this.
2h comes out on top.
Why? Because the damage output is fairly close between a 2h and a DW setup when both DW weapons are about the same DPS, both approximately equal to second agers. If the difference in maxed DPS is 12%, then getting a FA 2h will provide a 12% DPS boost (minimum)
A FA 1h however will only increase the damage on ONE weapon by 12%, so you only get half the benefit. (Unless you have an offhand weapon that has first-age DPS already)

Originally Posted by Strikerin

I do not have a champ at this level, but between my guard and my hunter I have put some thought into this.
2h comes out on top.
Why? Because the damage output is fairly close between a 2h and a DW setup when both DW weapons are about the same DPS, both approximately equal to second agers. If the difference in maxed DPS is 12%, then getting a FA 2h will provide a 12% DPS boost (minimum)
A FA 1h however will only increase the damage on ONE weapon by 12%, so you only get half the benefit. (Unless you have an offhand weapon that has first-age DPS already)

I agree. Unless people just can't stand 2H and don't really care to have best possible DPS, the first FA should be a 2H. Reason being in order for 1H to match 2H DPS the offhand weapon DPS would have to be significantly higher than the FA 1H, and right now there is no offhand that fits that description.

The 2H is a lottery on the stats you get to replace your lost offhand. You are afterwards stuck with one build and you cannot adapt. I use my off-hand to give me that extra *something* the raid needs of me, and I am still atop the dps list on our fights. I don't believe 2H makes the DPS difference for having no adaptability... and most tanks will lose aggro when u sustain 1600+dps on single target (easily done with 1 burg on t2 fire n frost.) Depending on how many offhands you have available (I often rotate between 4 of them), it can be the better choice to sacrifice big numbers.

Yeahhh...apart from the fact that I generally just enjoy the DW playstyle a lot more, I also *really* don't want to participate in the above-the-line lotto on a FA 2H. Also, because FA is such a big DPS improvement over 2A, I think I'd want it to be my sole DPS weapon (can't really picture getting 2 symbols anytime soon). In that case, I'd really, really want 5 majors on a 2H - Brutal, Wild, Crit, AoE, Remorseless whereas I'd be fine with 4 on a 1H - same as above minus brutal. Don't wanna play that lottery, either.

Here we go again lol. Already see several blatantly false statements in this thread. I don't have much to say other than to post some acid parses again, no blade brother, no limlight jewellry set. Going dw with a FA can get ya plenty of dps...

The apparent loss of DPS from the off-hand being lower damage than a 1H 1A is likely to be offset by the fact that the off-hand will have significant stat bonuses which the 2H won't. The new crafted 1H Axe offers something like 1200 melee offence (not online to check exact numbers).

This is just one of many calculations making exact comparisons impossible, meaning that the answer is still the same as it has been the other 45,321 times the question has been asked - pick whichever one you prefer. The difference, if there is one, is so trivial that personal playstyle and preference overwhelms all.

The exception to this is if you plan to PvMP a lot. Because of the very high emphasis on short, sudden burst damage in PvMP, a 2H absolutely wins out. Another possible factor is that the set bonus on the current best armour (the Orthanc set) favours 2H because it requires use of Brutal Strikes, which is a 2H skill rather than one you'll use when DW.

The answer is likely the same one that has been the answer for 5 years:

Depends on playstyle, and even then, not much of a difference. Use what you like.

Go with whatever you like, as Frisco said there's no real difference in them

2H for the Moors. Otherwise, go with what you are enjoying more.

P.S. I myself have been using DW all along until switching to a FA 2H. Glad I made this choice.

Sorry, but all the statements along the line of "It is just a matter of personal preference" do not seem that plausible to me. It seems more like a clouded way of saying "Noone has bothered to find out yet".

As Strikerin has already pointed out quite observantly above upgrading a 2H weapon from Second Age to First Age status will yield a higher DPS increase than doing so for a 1H weapon, unless you simultaneously manage to acquire a better offhand. With that observation in mind I find it quite hard to believe that both setups, assuming an unchanged offhand in the 1H case, will be close DPS wise both at the Second Age and at the First Age level.

Originally Posted by Sagit

Sorry, but all the statements along the line of "It is just a matter of personal preference" do not seem that plausible to me. It seems more like a clouded way of saying "Noone has bothered to find out yet".

As Strikerin has already pointed out quite observantly above upgrading a 2H weapon from Second Age to First Age status will yield a higher DPS increase than doing so for a 1H weapon, unless you simultaneously manage to acquire a better offhand. With that observation in mind I find it quite hard to believe that both setups, assuming an unchanged offhand in the 1H case, will be close DPS wise both at the Second Age and at the First Age level.

So go find out. Get 2 2nd ages and an equivalent sub-optimal off-hand and test parses.

We've been going over this same question for 5 years--people have done the math in the past, and the difference has been negligible to the point that nobody really cares all that much.

Originally Posted by swordmonkey

Here we go again lol. Already see several blatantly false statements in this thread. I don't have much to say other than to post some acid parses again, no blade brother, no limlight jewellry set. Going dw with a FA can get ya plenty of dps...

What do these screenshots prove exactly? To me they are just more "blatantly false statements" and have no value unless you do the same drill with a FA 2h. With 4 burglars even the captains can show awesome DPS stats.

It seems you also used continous blood rage and as your group seems to have used the all out nukie nukie tactic (fight only lasted 1m33) the screenshots only show spike damage really. By no means are they any worthy proof of showing that DW or 2H is better and besides... we already know the answer to that question. Try this with 2 burglars and a "normal" tactic and show us the result.

In my experience they parse the same. That's with identical relics, pretty much the same 4 majors except DW forgoes the brutal strikes legacy in favour of AOE. Offhand was whatever the critted club of the stoic is called. DW of course a remorseless spam, 2h brutal+clobber.

EDIT: Should have mentioned this was with 2nd agers. Still getting low rolls on a 1st ager for my champ :P

It is not a false claim to said that 2H does more damage than DW. It does. The reason why people claim that the two are about the same is because each time they test them they stacked the stats in favor of DW. Higher physical mastery, crit, dps on offhand weap, etc... Well if that hold true then in this instance getting a FA 2H over a 1H make sense as there is currently no offhand weapon with high enough DPS to offset the jump in 2H DPS from 2A to FA, not yet anyway. So again, if people will claim that 2H = DW in term of DPS then:

2A 2H = 2A DW(best setup)
FA 2H > FA DW(best setup)(because offhand weapon did not get any bump in DPS)

or

FA 2H = FA DW(best setup)
2A 2H < 2A DW(best setup)

So is there anyone brave enough to claim that current 2A setup DW has a higher DPS than current 2A 2H? If yes then so much for use whichever you prefer because they do matter.

Originally Posted by Frisco

We've been going over this same question for 5 years--people have done the math in the past, and the difference has been negligible to the point that nobody really cares all that much.

In the past physical mastery (or what its predecessor was called) gave at most 30%, crit was capped at 15%, stats at 10*level and the raw DPS upgrade from a Second Age weapon to a First Age weapon was a measly 3 DPS. Plus all the other changes I have not mentioned yet.

So how come that everyone thinks a five year old answer is still valid when the boundary conditions to the question posed have changd so significantly?

And a big thanks to Kakita_EC, you have formulated much more precisely what I was trying to get at.

Let me formulate a more precise answer then:

It doesn't matter because even if there is a difference (which isn't proven, or possibly even provable, either way) then it is so small as to have no effect whatsoever on your ability to complete content.

The single harshest DPS-test in the game is currently probably Orthanc Shadow T2 CM and that has been completed (to judge from screenshots) by teams including CMPs using both DW and 2H.

And that sort of extreme test is relevant only to a tiny number of players in one fight a week.

For 99% of CMPs, 99% of the time, in PvE, the answer is: pick whichever you prefer, it will make no difference to your ability to do your job and complete content.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

It doesn't matter because even if there is a difference (which isn't proven, or possibly even provable, either way) then it is so small as to have no effect whatsoever on your ability to complete content.

The single harshest DPS-test in the game is currently probably Orthanc Shadow T2 CM and that has been completed (to judge from screenshots) by teams including CMPs using both DW and 2H.

So? Shadow T2 Challenge are being completed by "teams including CMPs using both" First Agers and Second Agers. Does this mean that the difference between First Agers and Second Agers is "so small as to have no effect whatsoever"?

Originally Posted by Ixinix

What do these screenshots prove exactly? To me they are just more "blatantly false statements" and have no value unless you do the same drill with a FA 2h. With 4 burglars even the captains can show awesome DPS stats.

It seems you also used continous blood rage and as your group seems to have used the all out nukie nukie tactic (fight only lasted 1m33) the screenshots only show spike damage really. By no means are they any worthy proof of showing that DW or 2H is better and besides... we already know the answer to that question. Try this with 2 burglars and a "normal" tactic and show us the result.

Well I have posted this before and have not seen any 2h parses that beat this. I have no doubt it could be beaten by a 2h FA with blade brother, but I would be interested to see a parse from someone without blade brother with the same group makeup. I know burgs and hunters have posted parses a bit higher with blade brother.

If you do it with the "normal" tactic you spend half your time jumping around like an idiot so what does that prove?

Everyone in here is posting unfounded bs. I'm the only one to post an actual parse, but then of course its "no good." Let me see what your vaunted 2h can do in that fight, I'm sure their must be some crazy German player that can beat that dps, and I'm sure 3k dps is doable with blade brother.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

Let me formulate a more precise answer then:

It doesn't matter because even if there is a difference (which isn't proven, or possibly even provable, either way) then it is so small as to have no effect whatsoever on your ability to complete content.

The single harshest DPS-test in the game is currently probably Orthanc Shadow T2 CM and that has been completed (to judge from screenshots) by teams including CMPs using both DW and 2H.

And that sort of extreme test is relevant only to a tiny number of players in one fight a week.

For 99% of CMPs, 99% of the time, in PvE, the answer is: pick whichever you prefer, it will make no difference to your ability to do your job and complete content.

Perhaps a more precise answer is indeed needed: The OP is a 2h champ asking what will provide the higher DPS. The 2h FA will do that. Provably.
In this very thread is a champ testifying that a SA DW vs 2h provides no noticeable DPS change. Therefore, unless you can provide an offhand with the same % increased DPS as the difference between a SA 2h and a FA 2h, you cannot match the DPS.
No, you do not need a FA 2h to complete any content in the game... but then again you don't need a FA weapon to complete any content in the game.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

So? Shadow T2 Challenge are being completed by "teams including CMPs using both" First Agers and Second Agers. Does this mean that the difference between First Agers and Second Agers is "so small as to have no effect whatsoever"?

Yes it means exactly that. Or, to be even more precise, add the word "practical" before "effect". Since - as your example shows - the OP would be perfectly able to complete even the most DPS-demanding content in the game using second age weapons, obviously it's not going to make any practical difference which type of first age he goes for.

I can break this down into a very simple formula:

What's the max DPS of a 1h FA?
What's the max DPS of an offhand weapon?

If offhand > 1h FA, then DW > 2H.
If offhand < 1h FA, then DW < 2H.

Originally Posted by Reillan

I can break this down into a very simple formula

I don't dispute your formula. However, it raises two questions:

(1) what is the % difference between the two
(2) is this % difference significant enough to outweigh a personal preference for one style over the other

My belief is that the answers are (1) small and (2) no.

Specifically, the OP states that he likes to use a 2H; he is therefore asking if he should consider switching to DW. My answer is - like yours - 'no. However, I'd give the same answer if he was a DW user asking whether he should switch to 2H.

Originally Posted by Sagit

In the past physical mastery (or what its predecessor was called) gave at most 30%, crit was capped at 15%, stats at 10*level and the raw DPS upgrade from a Second Age weapon to a First Age weapon was a measly 3 DPS. Plus all the other changes I have not mentioned yet.

So how come that everyone thinks a five year old answer is still valid when the boundary conditions to the question posed have changd so significantly?

And a big thanks to Kakita_EC, you have formulated much more precisely what I was trying to get at.

I think your main error in logic here is assuming that while I said we've been going over this point "for 5 years", you seem to think that it got discussed once 5 years ago and nobody has tested it since.

The difficulty in testing is that both methods require different rotations and player style. And even if someone has "perfected" both, there's still the bias of style preference whether the tester admits it or not. Every bout of testing has produced conflicting results, but they always fall within the margin of error of being statistically equal.

After seeing this same thread for 5 years, and playing a Champion for the same length of time (both DW and 2H), I'm of the opinion that it's so close that whichever style you*want* to be better will ultimately *be* better for you. So the only tests that will really be accurate are those you perform yourself.

Grab a 2H 2nd Age, a 1H 2nd age, and an offhand of proportionally less damage (equivalent to the current best offhand vs. 1H 1st age). Go to town.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

I don't dispute your formula. However, it raises two questions:

(1) what is the % difference between the two
(2) is this % difference significant enough to outweigh a personal preference for one style over the other

My belief is that the answers are (1) small and (2) no.

Specifically, the OP states that he likes to use a 2H; he is therefore asking if he should consider switching to DW. My answer is - like yours - 'no. However, I'd give the same answer if he was a DW user asking whether he should switch to 2H.

The % difference is relatively small compared to other causes of difference, such skill selection and rotation. Knowing which skills benefit from 2H and which ones benefit from DW makes a big difference to DPS.

So from that standpoint, I agree - if you're comfortable with a rotation, stick with it. However, I also promote learning other setups, as you never know what might end up working much better for you.

BTW, Offhand < MH at this time, so 2H would seem superior. It's probably actually really close at the moment (because DW is enough more DPS over 2H that setting it up directly by the numbers isn't *quite* accurate...), but my guess would be that 2H has a tiny edge.

HOWEVER...

Do not underestimate the power of the singular offhand weapon Deadly Beleriand Curved Dagger. The DPS of this offhand weapon is so significant in raids that it completely overrules every other possible setup. Every single DW class (hunters, champs, and burgs) should be using it for maximizing raid DPS.

The choice of gear is really not the most important factor when it comes to determinating your dps.

Skill > Gear

Gear can make up for skill to a certain point but the best combination is obviously skill and gear. As for 2h vs dw, EVERY parse I've seen (even the one in this thread) show the same thing, there's no real difference. With optimal rotations they fall within the same bracket of dps no matter the playstyle, be it SA or FA. There IS one difference though and that is power consumption, you'll burn more power with a dw setup but that's about the only noticable difference you'll see.
The only style I've seen parse higher than dw or 2h is macro, but that's a whole different story...

Has anyone actually posted anything relevant to the arguement.I have yet to see any parses or proof of anything one way or another.All the parses and comparisons were done pre update 6.Now more of us have first agers and most DW have better offhands with the new items from update 6.So most offhands dps went up as well.
Plus it all depends on your toon how much dps youre doing.Is a 2h champ with 27k mastery and 7500 crit gonna out dps a dw champ with 29k mastery and 8500 crit?Its not like the old days where we were all cookie cutter.A lot has changed with the way we can build.

Originally Posted by SHADOW83

Has anyone actually posted anything relevant to the arguement.I have yet to see any parses or proof of anything one way or another.All the parses and comparisons were done pre update 6.Now more of us have first agers and most DW have better offhands with the new items from update 6.So most offhands dps went up as well.
Plus it all depends on your toon how much dps youre doing.Is a 2h champ with 27k mastery and 7500 crit gonna out dps a dw champ with 29k mastery and 8500 crit?Its not like the old days where we were all cookie cutter.A lot has changed with the way we can build.

Pre u6 there's lots of parses but it's true there's not so much from afterwards. On the other hand we run multiple champs in our raid group, some use dw some 2h and the only difference is really who gets BB (luckily it's me most of the time)

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

Let me formulate a more precise answer then:

It doesn't matter because even if there is a difference (which isn't proven, or possibly even provable, either way) then it is so small as to have no effect whatsoever on your ability to complete content.

The single harshest DPS-test in the game is currently probably Orthanc Shadow T2 CM and that has been completed (to judge from screenshots) by teams including CMPs using both DW and 2H.

And that sort of extreme test is relevant only to a tiny number of players in one fight a week.

For 99% of CMPs, 99% of the time, in PvE, the answer is: pick whichever you prefer, it will make no difference to your ability to do your job and complete content.

There are very few things in the games that gears would make a different. With that being said there is a different between going from 3A to 2A to 1A. With those 3 ages 2H and DW cannot always be comparable in term of DPS. The offhand weapon for DW does not change so it's either:

2H 3A = DW 3A
2H 2A > DW 2A
2H 1A >> DW 1A

or

DW 1A = 2H 1A
DW 2A > 2H 2A
DW 3A >> 2H 3A

Those are the two scenarios because LI 2H and 1H DPS are proportional at each age. I am not in game right now but I believe the DPS jump from 3A to 2A is 12% and 2A to 1A is around 7%(someone in game might can provide with exact numbers). The jump from 3A to 1A is around 20%. At all 3 ages 2H and DW DPS cannot all be comparable. One would have to be higher than the other at some point. Well how much higher is considered as significant? Would 10%-20% different qualify? If yes then begone with this 5 years old notion that 2H and DW DPS are comparable. It might have been the case at one point but it's no longer the case.

There are enough variables that people should really individually parse a comparison test. The value of a theoretical vacuum is directly proportional to the degree that the player can affect those results in game.

Hint: It's easiest to compare styles on a skill by skill basis.

Originally Posted by Reillan

I can break this down into a very simple formula:

What's the max DPS of a 1h FA?
What's the max DPS of an offhand weapon?

If offhand > 1h FA, then DW > 2H.
If offhand < 1h FA, then DW < 2H.

Except it ISN'T that simple and can't be...why?

2H DPS = 2H DPS *Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit %
DW DPS = 1H DPS * Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit % + OffHand DPS* Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit %

Notice, however, that Phys Mastery, and Crit % and BOTH variables in these equations (and its still a hyper-simplified set of equations) so even if you have the DPS properly accounted for you still would be in a multi-variable situation. On top of that we aren't even beginning to account for the fact that idealized DPS rotations will differ between DW and 2H which means that line bonuses, skill damage bonuses, -%miss chance bonuses, etc
will ALL differ between the two setups.

In other words there is no easy comparison between the two and it would require extensive re-testing across the board to make a quantitative assessment. Meanwhile the qualitative experience suggests there is no appreciable difference. I'm fine with saying that and if you want to show otherwise I'd invite you to start parsing as it would be interesting to see.

Originally Posted by Wilkens

Except it ISN'T that simple and can't be...why?

2H DPS = 2H DPS *Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit %
DW DPS = 1H DPS * Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit % + OffHand DPS* Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit %

Notice, however, that Phys Mastery, and Crit % and BOTH variables in these equations (and its still a hyper-simplified set of equations) so even if you have the DPS properly accounted for you still would be in a multi-variable situation. On top of that we aren't even beginning to account for the fact that idealized DPS rotations will differ between DW and 2H which means that line bonuses, skill damage bonuses, -%miss chance bonuses, etc
will ALL differ between the two setups.

In other words there is no easy comparison between the two and it would require extensive re-testing across the board to make a quantitative assessment. Meanwhile the qualitative experience suggests there is no appreciable difference. I'm fine with saying that and if you want to show otherwise I'd invite you to start parsing as it would be interesting to see.

It is a given that in order for DW total DPS to equal 2H total DPS the DW Physical Mastery and Crit have to be higher than 2H Physical Mastery and Crit. Not only that the offhand DPS would also have to be higher than the 1H LI DPS. That is how the best two(2H and DW) setups stack. So if you going from 3A to 2A and 1A and those 3 attributes(Physical Mastery, Crit, and offhand DPS) remain constant then the 2H and DW total DPS cannot remain comparable. If the best 3A setup has DW only comparable to 2H then the best 1A setup 2H will destroy DW, and vice versa if 1A setup 2H is only comparable to DW then 3A DW will destroy 2H. Why? It's simple logic. If the best DW setup rely on a higher offhand DPS to offset the lack of damage on the 1H LI weapon then as LI 2H and 1H DPS proportionally grow(from 3A to 2A and 1A) while the offhand DPS is not able to grow to offset it. Think of this simple equation:

2H = 100 DPS
1H = 100 /1.14 = 87.7 DPS + 12.3 DPS(offhand) = 100 total DPS

2H = 200 DPS
1H = 200/1.14 = 175.4 + 12.3 = 187.7 total DPS

2H = 300 DPS
1H = 300/1.14 = 263.2 + 12.3 = 275.5 total DPS

As you can see when LI 2H and 1H proportionally grow while offhand does not then the total DPS will shift. If they are comparable at one point then they will not be at some point up or down the chart. It is not that simplistic but the logic does not change.

boss parses show nothing

turn fervour on, go hit dummy.. post results, easy.
Prefably at least for 2 min, or more.

theoretical number throwing gets us nowhere.

Originally Posted by Kakita_EC

It is a given that in order for DW total DPS to equal 2H total DPS the DW Physical Mastery and Crit have to be higher than 2H Physical Mastery and Crit. Not only that the offhand DPS would also have to be higher than the 1H LI DPS. That is how the best two(2H and DW) setups stack. So if you going from 3A to 2A and 1A and those 3 attributes(Physical Mastery, Crit, and offhand DPS) remain constant then the 2H and DW total DPS cannot remain comparable. If the best 3A setup has DW only comparable to 2H then the best 1A setup 2H will destroy DW, and vice versa if 1A setup 2H is only comparable to DW then 3A DW will destroy 2H. Why? It's simple logic. If the best DW setup rely on a higher offhand DPS to offset the lack of damage on the 1H LI weapon then as LI 2H and 1H DPS proportionally grow(from 3A to 2A and 1A) while the offhand DPS is not able to grow to offset it. Think of this simple equation:

2H = 100 DPS
1H = 100 /1.14 = 87.7 DPS + 12.3 DPS(offhand) = 100 total DPS

2H = 200 DPS
1H = 200/1.14 = 175.4 + 12.3 = 187.7 total DPS

2H = 300 DPS
1H = 300/1.14 = 263.2 + 12.3 = 275.5 total DPS

As you can see when LI 2H and 1H proportionally grow while offhand does not then the total DPS will shift. If they are comparable at one point then they will not be at some point up or down the chart. It is not that simplistic but the logic does not change.

Why do you keep insisting that no ones offhand grew?When the 3rd age parses were done we only had some purple drops and theodred weapons.Then we started to see some better teals.Now those alot of those teals have since seen there dps increased as well the new great river gear with better dps and stats.You keep trying to simplify something that cant be simplified.

That's a good point.

Also, the arguments I've seen above that claim that a 2H is a better choice because all of your DPS 2H comes from the LI whereas only half of it comes from the mainhand LI with DW are pretty unfounded (that's a premise of the "the DPS of your offhand would have to increase by just as much to stay competitive" argument). The mainhand hit of Remorseless hits substantially harder than the offhand, and Ferocious *only* uses the mainhand weapon. Get your crit rating up higher, making Remorseless crit/dev more often, and you'll see something like 75% of your total DPS come from your mainhand weapon in a single-target fight. It's a little more even in AoE situations because the offhand hits just as hard as the mainhand with Blade-wall, but I haven't seen arguments stating that 2h is better than DW for AoE DPS in a long time, either, so that might be a moot point.

Originally Posted by Wilkens

Except it ISN'T that simple and can't be...why?

2H DPS = 2H DPS *Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit %
DW DPS = 1H DPS * Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit % + OffHand DPS* Phys Mastery + Bonus damage from Crits * Crit %

Notice, however, that Phys Mastery, and Crit % and BOTH variables in these equations (and its still a hyper-simplified set of equations) so even if you have the DPS properly accounted for you still would be in a multi-variable situation. On top of that we aren't even beginning to account for the fact that idealized DPS rotations will differ between DW and 2H which means that line bonuses, skill damage bonuses, -%miss chance bonuses, etc
will ALL differ between the two setups.

In other words there is no easy comparison between the two and it would require extensive re-testing across the board to make a quantitative assessment. Meanwhile the qualitative experience suggests there is no appreciable difference. I'm fine with saying that and if you want to show otherwise I'd invite you to start parsing as it would be interesting to see.

So... you're saying I was right anyway but going into more details about it?

Originally Posted by Gylve

That's a good point.

Also, the arguments I've seen above that claim that a 2H is a better choice because all of your DPS 2H comes from the LI whereas only half of it comes from the mainhand LI with DW are pretty unfounded (that's a premise of the "the DPS of your offhand would have to increase by just as much to stay competitive" argument). The mainhand hit of Remorseless hits substantially harder than the offhand, and Ferocious *only* uses the mainhand weapon. Get your crit rating up higher, making Remorseless crit/dev more often, and you'll see something like 75% of your total DPS come from your mainhand weapon in a single-target fight. It's a little more even in AoE situations because the offhand hits just as hard as the mainhand with Blade-wall, but I haven't seen arguments stating that 2h is better than DW for AoE DPS in a long time, either, so that might be a moot point.

The argument was not that a 2H is automaticallly better because all your DPS comes from that weapon. At least mine was not. The argument more went along these lines:

IF in a second age setup DW and 2H deliver about equal DPS, then once you obtain a first ager going 2H is the correct choice as in that case the upgrade second age -> first age affects all of your hits instead of only a percentage as is the case for DW. How large that percentage is (as long as it is not 100%, which it is not) only influences how big the gap after the upgrade will be, but not that there will be one.

Notice the big IF at the beginning of the sentence, though. It may as well be the case that both are equal at first age level. Which in turn would lead to the conclusion that at second age level DW is the better choice. And let's not discuss third agers, anyone halfway serious about his champion should be able to skip these nowadays.

I would also state that currently we can consider the offhand a fixed quantity, seeing how easy it is to get an optimized offhand (most of the best ones being crafted) compared to a first age symbol.

Originally Posted by Sagit

The argument was not that a 2H is automaticallly better because all your DPS comes from that weapon. At least mine was not. The argument more went along these lines:

IF in a second age setup DW and 2H deliver about equal DPS, then once you obtain a first ager going 2H is the correct choice as in that case the upgrade second age -> first age affects all of your hits instead of only a percentage as is the case for DW. How large that percentage is (as long as it is not 100%, which it is not) only influences how big the gap after the upgrade will be, but not that there will be one.

Notice the big IF at the beginning of the sentence, though. It may as well be the case that both are equal at first age level. Which in turn would lead to the conclusion that at second age level DW is the better choice. And let's not discuss third agers, anyone halfway serious about his champion should be able to skip these nowadays.

I would also state that currently we can consider the offhand a fixed quantity, seeing how easy it is to get an optimized offhand (most of the best ones being crafted) compared to a first age symbol.

You cant consider the offhand as a fixed quantity because all the parses that were done in the past werent done with the current offhanders.When the 3rd agers were parsed it was with theodred weapons for the most part and they were around 111 dps.Then when the second ages were done it was with the early teal drops or purple ones and they were around 124.Now we have off hands that are 131,almost equal to a first age.I dont even think we can take into acount any parse since most were by different people with different builds.Until someone does both and keeps an almost equal build this will just go on forever.There are simply to many variables right now to say one way or another.

Originally Posted by Reillan

HOWEVER...

Do not underestimate the power of the singular offhand weapon Deadly Beleriand Curved Dagger. The DPS of this offhand weapon is so significant in raids that it completely overrules every other possible setup. Every single DW class (hunters, champs, and burgs) should be using it for maximizing raid DPS.

Umm. No thanks. That is hardly the raid-DPS maximizing off-hand for a hunter. In fact, I don't a single top tier hunter that uses it.