*Eagle-friend become a trainable skill at somewhere in the 40-50 bracket.
*Nature-friend become the 4th legendary trait in place of Eagle-friend.
*Sabretooth Cat's Frostbite would now debuff both frost and fire mitigation.
*Transfer the power over time from Staff-sweep into Master of the Staff trait.
*Remove Improved Staff-Sweep fire damage buff.
*Increase Lightning Storm range to 40m.
*even if sword equip become a passive trainable skill, the staff skill should still only do damage with only the staff, the sword equip is only for stats increase....
Legenadry traits:
*Sword and Staff
(Staff-sweep and Staff-strike produce a second attack when wielding a sword.)
(wielding a staff allow you to block attacks.)
(+30% off-hand (sword) melee damage.)
Imo, the staff should be by default a off-hand and sword would be a main hand, and LM LIs should have been sword and staff, not lore-book copy of a wizard's spellbook; but well too late for those changes I guess.
I still find hard to figure out how gandalf is DW the legendary sword Glamdring, with the current lotro concept.
I just close my eyes and pretend my LM is left-hander.
Would still love to add in Sword and Staff:
(Staff become your off-hand and sword become the main hand.)
[comment are made in bracket]
_____
Ancient Master
2 Traits set bonus
Improved Warding Lore. [moved from AM 4 traits set]
Improved magnitude to SoP: Command. [moved for Improved SoB: Command]
+2 Bane Flare Targets.
3 Traits set bonus
-30 seconds CD to Sticky Tar. [moved from Secret of Tar]
-(Level × 12) Target Resistance to Blinding Flash and Bane Flare. [moved from Fast Loader]
+5 Lores Targets. (now include storm-lore and herb-lore) [moved from Deep Lore]
4 traits set bonus
-30 seconds CD to Ancient Craft. [moved from Force of Will legendary Trait]
Improved magnitude to SoP: SAE. [moved from Force of Will legendary Trait]
Improved Bane Flare. (now affect any creature type, like Blinding Flash.)
5 traits set legendary trait
Force of Will
*************[REVAMPED]
(Test of Will induction is removed, and now apply a Debuff which prevent Staff-Strike and Staff-Sweep to consume Flanking on the target.)
(When Test of Will critical hit, now it trigger CJ.)
_____
Class Traits
-Master of Staff [moved from MoNF trait]
(remove the +5% maximum Morale)
(Staff-Sweep, aswell, would now cause light damage; also cause a power over time effect, while flanking target)
-Knowledge of the Past [moved from MoNF trait]
-Fast Loader [Secret of Tar removed and merged here]
(remove induction to Burning Ember, Blinding Flash, Bane Flare, -50% induction to Sticky Tar & Sticky Gourd)
-Imp. Sign of Power [changed from Improved SoB: Commant]
(+100% duration to all Sign of Power skills.)
-Wisdom and Power
(now -30 seconds cooldown, -4 seconds induction and +200% power drain.)
(also add: Share the power gain -50% induction, -15% power cost and +10% power restoration.)[moved from Healer Trait]
-Light of Hope [moved from KoA]
-Deep Lore
(+100% duration to all Lores skills, even Storm-lore Stun and Herbs-Lore Root)
-Awarness of Body [moved from MoNF]
(+10% maximum Morale) [merged from Master of the Staff & Sword and Staff traits]
(+[Level x 8] Parry Rating and Evade Rating) [moved from Sword and Staff trait]
________
MoNF
2 Traits set bonus
+15% Fire Damage [+10% moved from Flame of Anor]
-40% Morale cost to Fury of Nature Skills [moved from Awarness of Body]
3 Traits set bonus
+15% Fire Damage
-180 seconds cooldown to Ents Go to War
4 Traits set bonus
+15% Fire Damage
+20m range to Ents Go to War
Sticky Tar is cast around your Feline Hunter or Raven, when they are present.
Herb-Lore reset EGtW cooldown.
5 traits set Legendary Trait:
-Master of Nature [NEW]
(Grant a single target toggle skill debuff, that prevent any AoE effect to affect the targetted enemy, help and harm effects aswell.)
(Also now Fire-Lore apply a self buff of +15% fire damage for each target affected by Fire-lore, stack maximum 3 time, last until out of combat 9 seconds.)
___
class traits
-Flame of Anor [moved from MoNF trait]
(-15 second cooldown to Light of the Rising Dawn.) [moved from MoNF 4 trait set bonus]
(now +15% Light damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
***"anor is the name of the sun, so have much to do with light damage then sticky gourd imo***
-the Study of Fire [moved from AM]
(also +15% fire damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
-the Study of Wind [moved from AM]
(also 100% Air-Lore mitigation) [moved from KoA 4 traits set]
(also +15% lightning damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
-the Study of Frost [moved from AM]
(also Cracked Earth's Root applies 5 seconds earlier.) [moved from AM3 set bonus]
(also +15% frost damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
-Knowledge of Storms
(+25% lightning damage)
(GoW grant you the Knowledge of the Storm buff that allow, for 10 seconds, to cast your NEXT Lightning Storm upon target that suffer GoW debuff, consuming the buff.)
(If not consumed, on expiration Knowledge of the Storm buff, reduce Lightning Storm CD by 20 seconds.)
-Explosive Force
(Improved Sticky Gourd)
-Harmony with Nature
-Imp. Sign of power Battle
(+25% SoB: Wizard's Fire damage and healing.)
____
KoA
2 Trais set bonus
+10% Inner Flame Healing
-5 seconds cooldown to Knowledge of the Cures [moved from KoA 3 traits set bonus]
3 Traits set bonus
-10% SotW: Protection incoming damage. [cumulated value from Master of the Beast trait and KoA 4 traits set]
-60 seconds cooldown to Inner Flame. [moved from KoA 4 trais set bonus]
4 Traits set bonus
+600 seconds duration to SotW
-15% attack duration to SotW: Rage [cumulated value from Master of the Beast trait and KoA 3 & 4 traits set]
SotW not anymore exclusive
5 Traits set bonus
Legendary trait:
Keeper of Animals [NEW]
(LM Fate increase pet's Armour & critical rating; Will increase pet's Mastery and Mitigation)
(You can now have 2 pets at the same time)
__________
class traits
-Healer
(don't affect Share the Power anymore.)
(affect Back from the Brink and Eagle's Sacrifice by giving +25% maximum morale and power to revived target, and reducting BftB induction.)
-Beast Training
(reduce pet's Skills cooldown by 50%)
-Combat Summoning
(Friends of the Animals skills can now be used while in combat)
-Hardy Companion
-Proof Against All Ill
(-5 seconds cooldown to Knowledge of the Cures)
(also Knowledge of the Cure affect poison aswell)
-Master of the Beasts
(SotW DON'T Cure ANYMORE Poison, Fear, Wound, Disease debuffs from Companions.)
(SotW: Rage transfer caster's Threat to his pet)
(SotW: Protection prevent once the next single damage, within 10 seconds, to be done to your pet.)
(remove induction from Friends of the Animals skills)
-Dúnadan-learning
(now only +2 stealth detection to SoP: Vigilance)
(also SoP: Vigilance now remove a single Fear effect)
-the Wild and the Ward [former Improved Inner Flame trait]
(-2s cooldown to SoP: Righteousness)
(also SoP: Righteousness targets are healed as yourself when using your Sign of Battle on a Flanked target; Healing Flame is healing target of SoP: Righteousness aswell, still transfer threat to pet.)
Last edited by jeanperson; Aug 16 2012 at 09:19 AM.
In passing, before trait lines came into being, LMs were effectively all KoA style builds, with some bias depending on which class traits you picked. Lower dps focus and did not bork your BF duration. I used to wander round Angmar and Annuminas pretty much as I wished in those days, clear a spot, root some locals and play music at them! IMO the changes appear to be linked to reduced focus on good instance design with more focus on dps races and less on planned and controlled fights with mobs being fed to dps classes while being held and prepared by LM and tank. Compare on-level Rift to subsequent material.
IMO its KoA thats stuill in need of a recognised "you pick this to do X" role but I like your thinking. You can solo as AM, its interesting but you do need coffee to stay awake, it makes solo captain look like the dps king:-)
You can solo as AM, its interesting but you do need coffee to stay awake, it makes solo captain look like the dps king:-)
i like that image
still the main concern was just looking at the traits set bonus.
the 2 and 3 traits set bonus are almost worst nothing.
and all wanted benefits are into the capstone legendary trait that is available around lvl 60.
and 4 traits set bonus isn't that earth shattering to go deep into it when you only have 4 class slots available.
On the other hand if you wanna focus on using Warding Lore and Ancient Craft, then you are surely expecting to go into melee with mobs, but Master of Staff is a MoNF trait which doesn't make sense what does staff attack have to do with Nature Fury?
on the other hand you got all the study of nature lore into the ancient master, as I said I understand that's because the design intent was to focus AM around debuffing but IMO that design have to be reviewed.
LM foundamental role is to Debuff as cappy is to Buff.
MoNF shouldn't sacrify that role because, of kids wanting to play a mage-like caster dps.
That's why I came to see MoNF as a range AoE orientated DPs, while AM would be a Single Target orientated, focusing more on CC and Debuff to handle many mobs.
More alike Champ got an AoE vs ST traits-lines.
In passing, before trait lines came into being, LMs were effectively all KoA style builds, with some bias depending on which class traits you picked. Lower dps focus and did not bork your BF duration. I used to wander round Angmar and Annuminas pretty much as I wished in those days, clear a spot, root some locals and play music at them! IMO the changes appear to be linked to reduced focus on good instance design with more focus on dps races and less on planned and controlled fights with mobs being fed to dps classes while being held and prepared by LM and tank. Compare on-level Rift to subsequent material.
I know lotro is getting the way of easy mode game so far sadly.
you can talk about the power issue aswell, before LM role was needed to maintain power of healer and tank now most class are totally self sufficient, and I only use power of knowledge when I got drained of power by some mobs.
There is still noobs that manage to get OOP but those are the same that dunno to move out of danger zone and die so I don't waste my time giving power to those:P
personnaly I always wanted to level as an Ancient master, but just never did because you gain nothing going into it.
AM seam to be built as a endgame(lvl60+) spec and that's make me sad.
Few observation can be done still:
AM trait set bonus of 2 and 3 trait are litterally useless and trait like Deep Lore are as much useless when lvling or soloing. All the wanted benefit for a AM are put altogether into the Capstone Legendary trait.
Why is Master of Staff a Master of Nature's Fury Trait?
and the other Hand Why are the 3 Study of X Lore Anciant Master traits?
I know the primary view was MoNF= DPS built and AM= support(CC & debuff)
Still I think those view has to change.
On the other hand the role of KoA is not clear, is he a pet orientated DPS or a healer, actually both and it seam to me too much to try to put into a traits-line.
Here come my suggestion:
KoA deep built would be pet DPs/Off-tanking spec.
MoNF would become more orientated into AoE elemental DPs spec from afar.
while AM would go more as a single target light based DPs, that need to get into melee and CC.
STILL all spec would remain the primary role as debuffer, and MoNF will still be able to use Blinding Flash efficiently.
as for the Healer role I would force it into a KoA/AM hybrid(4b/3y, 3b/4y or 3b/1r/3y).
so here come the suggestion...
[comment are made in bracket]
_____
Ancient Master
2 Traits set bonus
Improved Warding Lore [moved from AM 4 traits set]
+2 Bane Flare Targets
3 Traits set bonus
Improved magnitude to SoP: Command [moved for the AM class trait]
+5 Lores Targets (moved from the class trait: deep lore)
4 traits set bonus
Improved magnitude to SoP: SAE [moved from Force of Will legendary Trait]
-15 second cooldown to Light of the Rising Dawn. [moved from MoNF 4 trait set bonus]
5 traits set legendary trait
Force of Will
*************[REVAMPED]
Test of will induction and Stun effect are removed but now apply a Debuff which cause light damage over time 60 seconds and daze for 2 seconds when those damage do critical hit.
_____
Class Traits
-Master of Staff [moved from MoNF trait]
(Staff-Sweep, aswell, would now cause light damage)
-Knowledge of the Past [moved from MoNF trait]
-Fast Loader
??(also ???remove induction to Burning Ember??increase CD for balancing issue)
-Imp. Sign of Power
(now will increase the duration of all sign of power by 30 sec)
-Wisdom and Power
(now -30 seconds cooldown and +100% power drain)
(also add: Share the power gain -50% induction, -15% power cost and +10% power restoration)[moved from Healer Trait]
-Light of Hope [moved from KoA]
-Flame of Anor [moved from MoNF trait]
(now +15% Light damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
***"anor' is the name of the sun so have much to do with light damage then sticky gourd imo***
-Ancient Secrets [former Secret of Tar trait]
(-30 seconds cooldown to Sticky Tar & Ancient Craft) [moved for the Force of Will legendary Trait]
________
MoNF
2 Traits set bonus
+15% Fire & Frost Damage [+10% moved from flame of anor]
-40% Morale cost to Fury of Nature Skills
3 Traits set bonus
+15% Fire & Frost Damage
-180 seconds cooldown to Ents Go to War
4 Traits set bonus
+20m range to Ents Go to War
+15% Fire & Frost Damage
5 traits set Legendary Trait:
Improved Sticky Gourd
(also make Sticky Tar a targetted and 25m range skill)
___
class traits
-the Study of Fire [moved from AM]
(also +15% fire damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
-the Study of Wind [moved from AM]
(also 100% Air-Lore mitigation) [moved from KoA 4 traits set]
-the Study of Frost [moved from AM]
(also +15% frost damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
-Secret of Tar [moved from AM]
(now -50% induction to Sticky Tar & Sticky Gourd)
-Explosive Force
(+2m radius to Sticky Gourd, Sticky Tar, EGtW, CE and GoW)
-Imp. Sign of power Battle
-Knowledge of Storms
-Harmony with Nature
____
KoA
2 Trais set bonus
+10% Inner Fire Healing
-10 seconds cooldown to Knowledge of the Cures [moved from KoA 3 traits set bonus]
3 Traits set bonus
+10% damage reduction to SotW: Protection [cumulated value from Master of the Beast trait and KoA 4 traits set]
-60 seconds cooldown to Inner Fire [moved from KoA 4 trais set bonus]
4 Traits set bonus
+600 seconds duration to SotW
-15% attack duration to SotW: Rage [cumulated value from Master of the Beast trait and KoA 3 & 4 traits set]
5 Traits set bonus
(no change made)
__________
class traits
-Healer
(don't affect Share the Power anymore; but affect Back from the Brink also giving+25% max morale and power to revived target)
-Beast Training
(reduce pet's Skills cooldown by 50%)
-Awarness of Body [from MoNF]
(Inner Flame now affects nearby fellows, but no longer transfers threat.) [from improved inner fire]
-Hardy Companion
-Proof Against All Ill
(also Knowledge of the Cure affect poison aswell)
-Master of the Beasts
(now SotW are no longer mutually exclusive)
(BUT SotW DON'T Cure Poison, Fear, Wound, Disease debuffs from Companions ANYMORE)
(also SotW: Rage, Transfer caster's Threat to his pet; SotW: Protection, transfer pet's threat to the caster)
-Dúnadan-learning
(now +2 stealth detection to SoP: Vigilance)
(also SoP: Vigilance now remove Fear on yourself and your companion aswel)
-the Wild and the Ward [former Improved Inner Fire trait]
(-2s cooldown to SoP: Righteousness)
(also SoP: Righteousness targets are healed as yourself when using your Sign of Battle on a Flanked target)
With all those change it will still be possible for MoNF to go into 5r2y and get as much DPS as they were;
or healer KoA to go into 3b1r3y and be as efficient healer as they were.
I fully agree with the idea of improving the Ancient Master traitline....
But I do not want its base purpose changed.....
As a support class specializing in cc-debuff, we need a traitline that is exclusively dedicated to pure support role and nothing else.....making it into a single target spec would not only dilute its purpose but also reduce the distinction of roles that the current traitlines offer.....
Firstly, I'd just like to add that, AM is not built to be an endgame traitline....those LMs who know their class from the beginning (thats very few) know its uses early on....in fact its perfectly built to suit the class's needs as they level....for example, during the 20-30 level phase, when we dont have many class trait slots unlocked, the 2 trait set bonus of AM (+ bane flare targets) is very useful in GB runs....but it is mostly a group play related traitline and not many people group up seriously at lower levels for it.....same as the Leader of Men traitline of Capts.....group play traitline will always see lesser use in lower levels when people prefer the damage boosting traits that help solo play......and that is not a bad thing at all.....doesnt mean AM is obsolete and should be changed.....its the purpose of it to be used occassionally
Also, while the idea of giving all damage types a fair advantage seems like a attractive idea, it would need changing a LOT of things alongwith them....if we change Flame of Anor to give a bonus to Light damage, our exclusive bonuses to fire damage are lost.....and that is quite a tidy bit because 75 percent of our damage skills are fire based.....Light damage bonus would only help LotRD and Test of Will, of which ToW is barely used.....also most of our legacies are tied into our fire damage skills....
Also I would very much like to keep the legendary capstone trait of the debuff-cc line to be related to debuff-cc than make it into a single target damage skill with a lil cc factor to it.....Currently, though I might say that Force of Will has room for improvement, but even as it is, its a very powerful and suitable trait.....Although if I would have ideas of improving it, I would make it like....for example...
Force of Will - All Signs of Power magnitudes increased by 75/100 percent, Lore skills debuffs increased by 15-25 percent and Gust of Wind gets a 50/75 percent chance to open a fellowship maneuver.....
That is probably what I would consider an ideal capstone for the AM traitline
And finally, I read through your ideas, other than any other factors, the fact that makes me a bit uncomfortable is that it removes all penalties for going deep into a traitline while also diluting their strengths......there has to be a tradeoff you know.....MoNF would be supremely OP with the ability to use Blinding Flash.....if MoNF LMs dont get an exceptional increase in damage but can cc better, AM LMs can not cc-debuff purely as they can now but can do better single target damage, the traitlines lose their solid identity.....the line is blurred....I like it as an idea but I am quite of the opinion that I like having the traitlines distinct in ways that they increase our capability in one feature greatly while penalizing some other feature.....that way, it allows choice of playstyle.....if all traitlines offered a lil of everything, I wouldnt feel as potent for a specific purpose as I do now.....
I think the main problem with AM is that we are forced into it for the capstone and really the capstone is weak. Besides the faster root from cracked earth the other two trait bonuses are throw away. The trait line doesn't make us debuff better which is something I would like to see changed. I think our fire, frost and wind lore should have their cooldown reduced to 5 seconds and debuff reduced to -15% damage. This would allow even a DPS LM the ability to keep up debuffs all times and would allow us the ability to debuff multiple groups and mobs that resist the first debuff. Our yellow trait bonuses would then add -5% damage so when you trait 4 yellow you get -30% damage from your lore skills. This would allow people to trait less yellows depending on their need instead of the all or nothing we have now. Our capstone could then be something like Fire lore increases incoming melee damage 10%. wind lore increases incoming range damage 10% and frost lore increases incoming tactical damage 10%. The study of X lore trait could also give -10% damage of the appropriate type in addition to what they do now making the study of fire lore a desirable trait regardless of role.
I could see reworking a couple of the set bonuses on yellow, and maybe reworking blue line a bit, but other than that everything is fine as is. We should take a hit to our CC when traited for damage (I saw you wanted to remove the penalty to Blinding Flash, being able to permamez two mobs WHILE dishing out tons of burst DPS is just way too overpowered), and I do believe all of the traits in yellow and red lines have their purposes and work really well.
Last edited by TinDragon; Apr 20 2012 at 04:15 PM.
Your just taking everything out of each line and just mixing them around, it doesn't work like that at all. Blue Trait line needs a bit more buffing but everything else sorta works fine.
Like above posters say, removing the penaltys that a red line has on your CC is just too OP, trait lines are like jobs within a bigger job, and mixing and matching and changing them like you have, destroys any balance we actually had.
The only thing Ancient Master really needs is reduced cooldowns on the debuff skills - See All Ends, Fire/Frost/Wind Lore, Ancient Craft so that a loremaster has the capacity to debuff /every/ mob. 1 minute cooldowns are pretty crummy.
I also agree that these changes you've come up with would not work in the manner you've put them together.
However, I agree that both KoA and AM traitlines could and should have some updates concerning the different stage-bonuses. For instance, I would like to see some updates on number 2 and 3 traitline bonus on both KoA and AM. I would also like to see air-lore getting a threat-over-time bonus in the AM-traitline (as one of the orthanc sets have today), and Beacon of Hope getting a HoT in the KoA traitline (like the one bonus in the OD-set). Also AoE flanks (also taken from the OD-set) would be most welcome as either a part of a traitline bonus or from a trait, Noble Savage or Nature friend, perhaps.
qft.
(I saw you wanted to remove the penalty to Blinding Flash, being able to permamez two mobs WHILE dishing out tons of burst DPS is just way too overpowered),
Originally Posted by GingerAj
No.
Your just taking everything out of each line and just mixing them around, it doesn't work like that at all. Blue Trait line needs a bit more buffing but everything else sorta works fine.
Like above posters say, removing the penaltys that a red line has on your CC is just too OP, trait lines are like jobs within a bigger job, and mixing and matching and changing them like you have, destroys any balance we actually had.
Well I removed LotRD CD redux AND the +15% tactical(Light) damage from 4 traits set bonus of MoNF.
The LotRD is now a AM 4 traits set bonus and the Light bonus damage is in a AM trait.
Imo a Stun is much more usefull for a AoE dps oriented than a Daze that break on damage.
I don't see how that can be considered Overpowered.
As I see ginger, you just find the current LM perfectly balanced and you don't see any reason to change it so I understand that you're against such change still I see that your opinion is mostly 60+ based, because currently solo leveling as a AM is just a PITA with no fun at all there is MoNF solo lvling (faster) and the KoA (slower, but more resilient), AM is just even taking for ever and totally boring.
If there is just one thing that I would liek to see at least done would be to move Master of Staff to AM and 4 traits set bonus of AM moved to 2 traits set.
Also, the Lores CD redux moved from the Force of Will into Deep Lore, while the max target would be moved into the 3 traits set bonus of AM.
Share the power casting power healing and power cost moved into Wisdom and Power.
While Back from the Brinks would get it's casting time reduced by the Healer traits aswell.
Last edited by jeanperson; Apr 23 2012 at 01:17 AM.
However, I agree that both KoA and AM traitlines could and should have some updates concerning the different stage-bonuses. For instance, I would like to see some updates on number 2 and 3 traitline bonus on both KoA and AM. I would also like to see air-lore getting a threat-over-time bonus in the AM-traitline (as one of the orthanc sets have today), and Beacon of Hope getting a HoT in the KoA traitline (like the one bonus in the OD-set). Also AoE flanks (also taken from the OD-set) would be most welcome as either a part of a traitline bonus or from a trait, Noble Savage or Nature friend, perhaps.
kk so then KoA will be able to both fill the roll of Healer and tank in same time o.O
Imo KoA can't be orientated into full healing cause it will cause imbalance with its other role of pet orientated trait-line, specially if you wanna buff the tankablility of pet.
Imho, Deep KoA should be focussed around the pet that's why I moved the healer traits and bonus set so that you need only 3 or 4 KoA to be required and moved Beacon of Light into the AM line and the Air-lore bonus set into the Study of Wind-Lore.
To enable LM to spec into full heal without giving the opportunity to be able to full Heal+Pet Tank.
The only thing Ancient Master really needs is reduced cooldowns on the debuff skills - See All Ends, Fire/Frost/Wind Lore, Ancient Craft so that a loremaster has the capacity to debuff /every/ mob. 1 minute cooldowns are pretty crummy.
In an endgame optic...
I agree,
Still 2 and 3 traits set bonus are mostly useless and most of the AM trait are not useful to soloing & leveling.
My goal is to make each trait line ENJOYABLE experience to solo-level; each still focusing on a specific role and gameplay, I think that I reached my goal, you might not see it or might not appreciate it, but that's my suggestion.
I think the main problem with AM is that we are forced into it for the capstone and really the capstone is weak. Besides the faster root from cracked earth the other two trait bonuses are throw away. The trait line doesn't make us debuff better which is something I would like to see changed. I think our fire, frost and wind lore should have their cooldown reduced to 5 seconds and debuff reduced to -15% damage. This would allow even a DPS LM the ability to keep up debuffs all times and would allow us the ability to debuff multiple groups and mobs that resist the first debuff. Our yellow trait bonuses would then add -5% damage so when you trait 4 yellow you get -30% damage from your lore skills. This would allow people to trait less yellows depending on their need instead of the all or nothing we have now. Our capstone could then be something like Fire lore increases incoming melee damage 10%. wind lore increases incoming range damage 10% and frost lore increases incoming tactical damage 10%. The study of X lore trait could also give -10% damage of the appropriate type in addition to what they do now making the study of fire lore a desirable trait regardless of role.
well the actual 4traits set bonus of AM should at least be moved to 2 traits set bonus.
As for Lore's CD I always found that strange that it has 1 min CD (30 sec for wind-lore) considering that GoW give +7% miss chance for 2 minute+ damage to 6 target compared to the +3% miss chance of fire-lore to 3 targets.
But I personnally chose to moved the CD redux of Lores into the Deep lore traits from the Legendary capstone traits, I think that's a far less drastic change than reducing CD to 5 sec.
You took quite some time to write your suggestion, so I will take time to comment on it, what i think about them.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
personnaly I always wanted to level as an Ancient master, but just never did because you gain nothing going into it.
AM seam to be built as a endgame(lvl60+) spec and that's make me sad.
Few observation can be done still:
AM trait set bonus of 2 and 3 trait are litterally useless and trait like Deep Lore are as much useless when lvling or soloing. All the wanted benefit for a AM are put altogether into the Capstone Legendary trait.
Not every traitline is meant to be a good levelingline. when i leveled in shadows of angmar-times i leveled as "ancient master" though there weren't any traitlines. It is possible to level with ancient mster, but it's not not meant to be used for leveling.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
Why is Master of Staff a Master of Nature's Fury Trait?
and the other Hand Why are the 3 Study of X Lore Anciant Master traits?
I know the primary view was MoNF= DPS built and AM= support(CC & debuff)
I think Master of Staff would fit to KoA traitline. Master of Staff depends on pet (flanking) and it's the strongest dps-trait for KoA Loremasters. My idea would be to integrate the traitbonus of Master of Staff in Staffstrike. It wouldn't be too strong. MoNF don't rely on staffstrike that much and KoA and AM life would be much easier with the buffed Staffstrike. The moralebonus could be combined with Awareness of Body and maybe increased to 10%. (so Awareness of Body would provide -40% moralecosts and +10% morale). This way every leveling and soloing LMs life (no matter which traitline) will become a bit easier(but not too easy) and the weak Awareness of Body-trait would get a mostneeded buff.
I agree with:
Originally Posted by jeanperson
On the other hand the role of KoA is not clear, is he a pet orientated DPS or a healer, actually both and it seam to me too much to try to put into a traits-line.
but I don't agree with:
Originally Posted by jeanperson
KoA deep built would be pet DPs/Off-tanking spec.
MoNF would become more orientated into AoE elemental DPs spec from afar.
while AM would go more as a single target light based DPs, that need to get into melee and CC.
STILL all spec would remain the primary role as debuffer, and MoNF will still be able to use Blinding Flash efficiently.
as for the Healer role I would force it into a KoA/AM hybrid(4b/3y, 3b/4y or 3b/1r/3y).
MoNF shouldn't be able to debuff and CC as good as other LMs, and AM isn't a DPS-line and shouldn't become one.
The best healing build should be 5 KoA. The weak petbuffs in KoA could be made baseline, and noone would really notice.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
_____
Ancient Master
2 Traits set bonus
Improved Warding Lore [moved from AM 4 traits set] - nothing to say against this one
+2 Bane Flare Targets
3 Traits set bonus
Improved magnitude to SoP: Command [moved for the AM class trait] -this sounds ok too.
+5 Lores Targets (moved from the class trait: deep lore)
4 traits set bonus
Improved magnitude to SoP: SAE [moved from Force of Will legendary Trait]
-15 second cooldown to Light of the Rising Dawn. [moved from MoNF 4 trait set bonus]
5 traits set legendary trait
Force of Will
*************[REVAMPED]
Test of Will induction is removed but now apply a Debuff which cause light damage over time 60 seconds and got 10/25 percent chance to open a fellowship maneuver each pulse. (or on critical hit damage trigger CJ)
-I don't like the ideas for 4-traitbonus and the capstone. Force of Will is good as it is and AM shouldn't become a dpsline.-
Originally Posted by jeanperson
_____
Class Traits
-Master of Staff [moved from MoNF trait]
(Staff-Sweep, aswell, would now cause light damage)
-Knowledge of the Past [moved from MoNF trait]
-Fast Loader
??(also ???remove induction to Burning Ember??increase CD for balancing issue)
-Imp. Sign of Power
(now will increase the duration of all sign of power by 30 sec)
-Wisdom and Power
(now -30 seconds cooldown and +100% power drain)
(also add: Share the power gain -50% induction, -15% power cost and +10% power restoration)[moved from Healer Trait]
-Light of Hope [moved from KoA]
-Flame of Anor [moved from MoNF trait]
(now +15% Light damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
***"anor' is the name of the sun so have much to do with light damage then sticky gourd imo***
-Ancient Secrets [former Secret of Tar trait]
(-30 seconds cooldown to Sticky Tar & Ancient Craft) [moved for the Force of Will legendary Trait]
You made a lot of work with your ideas, but I'm sorry I can't agree with many of them. The only thing i would change at AM is to combine study of fire-, windlore (and maybe frostlore) in one trait. Especially Study of Firelore feels very weak and has a high amount of RNG. I don't like RNG on a Loremaster.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
________
MoNF
2 Traits set bonus
+15% Fire & Frost Damage [+10% moved from flame of anor]
-40% Morale cost to Fury of Nature Skills
3 Traits set bonus
+15% Fire & Frost Damage
-180 seconds cooldown to Ents Go to War
4 Traits set bonus
+20m range to Ents Go to War
+15% Fire & Frost Damage
5 traits set Legendary Trait:
Improved Sticky Gourd
(also make Sticky Tar a targetted and 25m range skill)
___
class traits
-the Study of Fire [moved from AM]
(also +15% fire damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
-the Study of Wind [moved from AM]
(also 100% Air-Lore mitigation) [moved from KoA 4 traits set]
-the Study of Frost [moved from AM]
(also +15% frost damage) [cumulated value from MoNF 3 & 4 traits set tactical damage bonus]
-Secret of Tar [moved from AM]
(now -50% induction to Sticky Tar & Sticky Gourd)
-Explosive Force
(+2m radius to Sticky Gourd, Sticky Tar, EGtW, CE and GoW)
-Imp. Sign of power Battle
-Knowledge of Storms
-Harmony with Nature
Can't say much about MoNF-cause i don't like and use this traitline-, but +20m Range fo Ents go to War sound too strong(especially in PvMP). longrange multitarget stun just sounds op. It's not my kind of playstyle. (tough i respect MoNF-LMs)
Originally Posted by jeanperson
____
KoA
2 Trais set bonus
+10% Inner Fire Healing
-10 seconds cooldown to Knowledge of the Cures [moved from KoA 3 traits set bonus]
3 Traits set bonus
+10% damage reduction to SotW: Protection [cumulated value from Master of the Beast trait and KoA 4 traits set]
-60 seconds cooldown to Inner Fire [moved from KoA 4 trais set bonus]
4 Traits set bonus
+600 seconds duration to SotW
-15% attack duration to SotW: Rage [cumulated value from Master of the Beast trait and KoA 3 & 4 traits set]
5 Traits set bonus
Nothing really changed, nothing to comment about it
Originally Posted by jeanperson
__________
class traits
-Healer
(don't affect Share the Power anymore; but affect Back from the Brink also giving+25% max morale and power to revived target)
- this would be a very hard nerf to healer. I think the actual version is much better.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
-Beast Training
(reduce pet's Skills cooldown by 50%)
- I like this idea. maybe it could be put in an existing trait or in a KoA-traitlinebonus.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
-Awarness of Body [from MoNF]
(Inner Flame now affects nearby fellows, but no longer transfers threat.) [from improved inner fire]
-Hardy Companion
-Proof Against All Ill
(also Knowledge of the Cure affect poison aswell)
- every class can just remove 1!!! effect. We are the only class, which can remove 2 effects. 3 would be too much.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
-Master of the Beasts
(now SotW are no longer mutually exclusive)
(BUT SotW DON'T Cure Poison, Fear, Wound, Disease debuffs from Companions ANYMORE)
(also SotW: Rage, Transfer caster's Threat to his pet; SotW: Protection, transfer pet's threat to the caster)
-Dúnadan-learning
(now +2 stealth detection to SoP: Vigilance)
(also SoP: Vigilance now remove Fear on yourself and your companion aswel)
-the Wild and the Ward [former Improved Inner Fire trait]
(-2s cooldown to SoP: Righteousness)
(also SoP: Righteousness targets are healed as yourself when using your Sign of Battle on a Flanked target)
SoP:Righteousness targets healed with flank sounds too much. Turning the OD-setbonusses to KoA-traitline would be a far better solution.
I really appreciate your feedback and comment thx...
I understand taht some of my suggestions are based on different view and role of what would be a traitline for.
Originally Posted by Tatharil
I think Master of Staff would fit to KoA traitline. Master of Staff depends on pet (flanking) and it's the strongest dps-trait for KoA Loremasters. My idea would be to integrate the traitbonus of Master of Staff in Staffstrike. It wouldn't be too strong. MoNF don't rely on staffstrike that much and KoA and AM life would be much easier with the buffed Staffstrike. The moralebonus could be combined with Awareness of Body and maybe increased to 10%. (so Awareness of Body would provide -40% moralecosts and +10% morale). This way every leveling and soloing LMs life (no matter which traitline) will become a bit easier(but not too easy) and the weak Awareness of Body-trait would get a mostneeded buff.
That was an option that I poundered on but I choose to send it on AM for 2 reasons:
1)KoA being a pet based trait line can manage to stay out of harm and survive by healing pet, to go into melee is an option but not required.
2)AM got increased Debuff that are melee skills: Warding Lore, Ancient Craft and Sticky Tar.
That's why I moved it to the AM instead; beside the Ancient Master concept even if vague seam to fit more about a Staff-Master monk style orientation theme, Off course you might say that a Keeper of Animal can be considered aswell as implying a Staff wanderer of the wild like theme; for sure it doesn't fir the Master of Nature Fury theme at all.
Originally Posted by Tatharil
MoNF shouldn't be able to debuff and CC as good as other LMs, and AM isn't a DPS-line and shouldn't become one.
Why? MoNF is already doing CC with LotRD, EgtW and Storm-lore. Blinding Flash Daze isn't that Op compared to Stun effect; I know that Daze effect don't trigger CC immunity like Stun does, still, Daze effect break on damage.
And as I mentionned in previous reply: a target CC that break on damage being enabled into a AoE DPS orientated role is not something that can be considered OP, just useful but still require to handle the crowd enough to not break CC.
Also MoNF is already doing debuff aswell.
I just conpensated the lost of Master of the Staff survival trait by some AoE more efficient Debuff traits instead; also to compensate the lost of 3 and 4 traits set bonus light damage skills bonuses and LotRD CD redux lost by removing the Blinding Flash penalty.
Originally Posted by Tatharil
The best healing build should be 5 KoA. The weak petbuffs in KoA could be made baseline, and noone would really notice.
In that I disagree, I think that KoA should be build and reinforced arount pet-damage/(off)tanking; and the Healing role should be split between 3 KoA traits and 3 AM traits.
But that's just divergeant view of the trait's-line roles, but the name Keeper of Animals, in my mind, doesn't imply at all that you got to be a Healer of people, that's why I moved Light of Hope trait into the Ancient Master, who is more themed around the "light" key word.
I kept the Improved Inner fire traits in KoA because it's a pet requiring skills.
I moved Share the Power bonus from Healer trait into the Wisdom and Power trait because, and taht should even make sense if you wanna make 5 trait KoA a healer role: If you Share Power you should need to be able to more efficiently regain power aswell.
Also, usually the Principal fellow that a LM should give power to is always the Healer, a powerless healer is a useless healer, a Tank can still manage to tank without Power and Tank classes/spec are the most power efficient also.
So to ask a Healer to Heal power to other is counter logical.
But to ask a CC, Debuffer that got all the Traits to be power efficient(Knowledge of the Past, Wisdom and Power) to share the power more efficiently,...that's fall into commun sense imo.
Originally Posted by Tatharil
-I don't like the ideas for 4-traitbonus and the capstone. Force of Will is good as it is and AM shouldn't become a dpsline.-
Sure that the current Force of will is good as it is now all that is interesting into the AM trait set bonus are in the capstone trait; that I scattered amoung the whole AM traits set bonus and traits instead.
Originally Posted by Tatharil
Can't say much about MoNF-cause i don't like and use this traitline-, but +20m Range fo Ents go to War sound too strong(especially in PvMP). longrange multitarget stun just sounds op. It's not my kind of playstyle. (tough i respect MoNF-LMs)
I must admit that I didn't thought about that issue of PvMP; My idea was principally that EgtW being a MoNF rotation skill and considering it's short range, was to force him ou tof melee range and make him a range AoE DPS.
I must admit that it should need some consideration into the testing, I was no Idea yet how to allow EgtW into a RDPS rotation without making it a OP skill for PvMP, beside making that skill/trait work differentlyinto the moors.
Originally Posted by Tatharil
- every class can just remove 1!!! effect. We are the only class, which can remove 2 effects. 3 would be too much.
There is 2 reasons also for that choice:
1) that Sign of the Wild remove any debuff on pet seamed to me counter logical since the KoA had already a trait that allowed to remove wound and disease on all the fellowship at once; so I made that KoA should use Knowldge of the Cure to remove Poison aswell as wound and disease from his pet.
Imo, it would have be too much to allow LM to remove Fear on the whole fellowhip aswell so I made that SoP:vigilance which was already a skill that effect only pet and LM to remove fear aswell, instead.
2)If a Burglar and a Hunter can learn to remove poison why a LM couln't?
It should be part of the LM role in a group should be to have Knowledge of the Cure and poison is part of it, imo.
Fear is the field of Captain and Minstrel.
Originally Posted by Tatharil
SoP:Righteousness targets healed with flank sounds too much. Turning the OD-setbonusses to KoA-traitline would be a far better solution.
you would prefere an AoE flanking heal instead of forcing a healer LM to keep SoP: Righteousness on fellow/raid member in order to heal them with that same flanking heal?
I don't agree, healing shouldn't be made so easy for a LM, it should require work and alot of attention; to make a trait that would make the SoB heal an AoE heal, THAT would be lame.
But not the Threat-over-time on Air-lore, nor the Beacon of Light HoT.
Why all put into one single healing skill?
Imo, the Synergy heal from flanking with Air-Lore doesn't make any sense beside being a convenient mechanic.
Making that synergy work with SoP: Righteousness and force a different healing style:
Keeping SoP on the whole fellowship not to mention the whole raid is hardly a easy job aswell as keeping SoB on all mobs.
Otherwise LM healer will end up being a copy healing style of other classes:
Cappy
Word of Courage: direct heal + HoT
Rallying Cry: fellowship direct hel + Hot
RK
MV, PoH, WoH: direct heal + HoT
Rousing Words: big HoT
I Don't want classes to blend into each other like turbine is starting to do right now and I hope they will use some more creativity to make LM healer do it differently; the Flanking healing sharing is a good idea but to restrict it by Air-lore is to nerf it and make it of marginal use.
I still appreciate your comments and suggestions, and you made me notice some issues that I failed to notice.
Still I understand that our main divergence is about the ROLE orientation of each trait-lines.
Last edited by jeanperson; Jul 10 2012 at 04:23 PM.
I like the idea of moving the heals to the AM line and having blue completely reworked .
My 2 cents : Move the AM bonus ( Cracked Earth applies 5 sec earlier ) to the MoNF line to compensate for the loss of BF duration .
That was already placed in the Study of the Frost-Lore trait that is moved into the MoNF traits-line.
But apparently I forgot to write it down, it was it my note tho...
I chose the Study of Frost-Lore not the Study of Fire-Lore because it's about the root delay, even if CE is fire based damage I tried to conceive how that root was supposed to be applied considered that the earth cracked and became soft through the heat and by cooling it stiffened.
I know technically its a debuff but I never trait 'The secret of tar' when AM traited but I always use it when MoNF traited, likewise 'knowledge of the past' I only use when I am AM and likely to be sharing power around', I'd like to see these traited swapped trait lines.
I know technically its a debuff but I never trait 'The secret of tar' when AM traited but I always use it when MoNF traited, likewise 'knowledge of the past' I only use when I am AM and likely to be sharing power around', I'd like to see these traited swapped trait lines.
IMO the 2 and 3 set bonuses of AM are useless
I so agree with you there....
I just brought some change in the Initial post, please take a second look at it.
I happen to like Ancient Master as it is. In fact, I'm hardly ever traited as anything else, even when soloing.
So no, it does not need to be revamped.
Soyou've soloed and leveled since lvl 20 in AM ?! o.O
don't make me laugh...
the only trait useful at low level is study of wind-lore for the increase of GOW debuff...
Deep Lore tell me when you did need a 8 targets max lores when soloing...study of the frost lore is useless as is study of the fire-lore, when soloing Improved SoP: command doesn't change much things, if you wanna boost your pet dps or your staff damage you are better taking blue trait for pet and Master of Staff.
Only fast Loader is useful to level and solo in AM.
Of course getting the capstone would be useful but all the sacrifice you made to get is just useless.
Lets think of it you want the Improved Warding Lore of 4 trait set bonus...? well that a melee skill and if you go melee when soloing then you're better have the master of staff equipped, but no that trait is ... I still wonder why... a MoNF's trait, so what I changed it into AM instead, all was made starting from that prior idea.
most of the capstone bonus were moved into lower traits set bonus or in some AM traits and some AM traits effect have moved into bonus traits set, as in the +5 lore targets from deep lore...instead now Deep lore increase lore duration by +100% and affect all lores, and the +5 lore target is a 3 traits set bonus, which make more sense. you want to affect more target then you got to invest more deeply into the trait-line.
while making the lore last the duration of the CD would just make it useful for any trait-line spec.
I might argue and justify every single choice just ask and comment the point you don't agree or aren't sure about the need of.
-the Wild and the Ward [former Improved Inner Flame trait]
(-2s cooldown to SoP: Righteousness)
(also SoP: Righteousness targets are healed as yourself when using your Sign of Battle on a Flanked target; Healing Flame is healing target of SoP: Righteousness aswell, still transfer threat to pet.)
so threat transfer removal from Inner Flame isn't needed and it doesn't act anymore like a Rousing Words.
>>>
most of the capstone bonus were moved into lower traits set bonus or in some AM traits and some AM traits effect have moved into bonus traits set, as in the +5 lore targets from deep lore...instead now Deep lore increase lore duration by +100% and affect all lores, and the +5 lore target is a 3 traits set bonus, which make more sense. you want to affect more target then you got to invest more deeply into the trait-line.
>>>
Your logic is impeccable, I support the concept. AM is often the busiest traitline and those duration increases will allow for things like the current rather choppy play in some areas by permitting an effect to be on all the time while giving lag tolerance. Indeed +25% would probably cover the issue.
>>>
most of the capstone bonus were moved into lower traits set bonus or in some AM traits and some AM traits effect have moved into bonus traits set, as in the +5 lore targets from deep lore...instead now Deep lore increase lore duration by +100% and affect all lores, and the +5 lore target is a 3 traits set bonus, which make more sense. you want to affect more target then you got to invest more deeply into the trait-line.
>>>
Your logic is impeccable, I support the concept. AM is often the busiest traitline and those duration increases will allow for things like the current rather choppy play in some areas by permitting an effect to be on all the time while giving lag tolerance. Indeed +25% would probably cover the issue.
Wow reading you reply, I had two time to look at the your name to be sure it wasn't one of my own.
You perfectly understood my view about AM; and what about MoNF, KoA and the healer hybrid?
The ideas that I will always fight against are:
-Air-lore being used like a Captain Shield-Brother.
-Inner Flame being used like a RK Rousing Words.
-MoNF in melee.
That's why I would prefere to get SoB: WF flanked heal AND inner Flame to affect the SoP: Righteousness instead of the current design.
I see KoA as a Pet DPS/Tank oriented spec so it can't be a full healer aswell, that's why I switch some traits into the AM line instead, and buffed the KoA instead so that pet become even more powerful.
There is many LM out there asking why Nature Fury skill cost morale and ask for the removal of that cost...
but if they ask that it's because they are forced into melee and as a light armoured class, melee is not something viable.
That's why I want to remove the Sweep staff fire damage buff and make the PoT into the master of staff trait which is moved into the AM line instead, where it is more needed since AM got many skill that they need to cast in melee range.
It's the reason why I also made that GoW synergy with Lightning Storm in the Knowledge of Storm trait.
And increased the EgtW in the MoNF trait set bonus aswell as making Sticky Tar being cast around Feline Hunter and Raven.
That last was also to force a little synergy upon spec...
So MoNF would gain better advantage from Sabercat and raven;
Healer LM is forced into KoA/AM hybrid and since LM heal is based on Flanking then I made the Eagle a trainable skill and placed bog-lurker in place of Eagle legendary trait, so any line can get that ranged pet with high flanking proc, at the expense of a legendary trait.
the Eagle becoming the default healer pet; Spirit of Nature don't give as much Flanking and most of his skill are getting more powerful with the Beast Training Trait pet's skills CD reduction.
Still there would be some debate over a 5b2y+SoN&Eagle/BL pet VS 3b1r3y+Eagle/BL, something might have to be done there but my view is the a 3b1r3y or even 3b4y would be a better debuffer and more mana efficient healer while a 5b2y would have to do much more intensive healing and might end up with some power shortage, so they would end up mostly into play style: Healer+pet VS Healer/debuffer.
AM would take more use of Eagle or Raven, for the Flanking event for the staff skills, see the AM capstone.
KoA would have the flexibility to get 2 pets at the same time, with the KoA capstone equipped.
Two pets, same or different ones; KoA would really become the Keeper of animalS, instead of a bug-lurker only line.
Combat Summoning is placed as a trait and passive effect that simply allow to summon pet in combat in trade for a longer skill CD.
Imo, there is no point in buffing your pet if you can't summon your pet in-combat, cause you end up considerable handicaped once the pet is dead.
This is the main reason why captain almost never use pet unless in solo, boss fight being to long loosing a pet for the whole fight is just a waste of traits; the same can be said for a LM KoA.
I also gave in the red line of Captain, a trait that allow the same: to summon pet in-combat in my other post...
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Originally Posted by Mithithil
i like that image
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