If you ever listen to wardens they use the pronoun "I" a lot, that is because they are and always have been a solo class that has tried to move into the world of tanking. (Raiding is not a "I" activity, it is a "We" one).
When it comes to raiding no one cares how you do it, but your fellow raiders want you to play your class successfully. (no matter how much you wish it wasn't true, wardens are just not successful at raid tanking). If you talk to or read what most warden's have to say, their playing warden is about their play style, not what is best for the group.
No one cares how many buttons you push to grab the boss, survive the hits, stop or slow down problems that lead to wipes. They just want you to do it, and that is what a Guardian was designed to do and does.
From the launch of LOTRO forward, Guardians were designed to be the successful main tanks, wardens have required revamp after revamp, just to be a mediocre tank. (It shows you just how flawed a design the wardens are, that inorder to be sorta playable the devs have had to make them overpowered.)
warden's are a solo class that play is all about them, where Guardian's are about the raid group. Again most or the majority of groups in LOTRO will always benefit more by having a Guardian tank. (And the majority of player in LOTRO already know this.)
Another myth is the "advanced class", you do realized that when LOTRO went F2P, and they were trying to sell you the warden class, some marketing person slapped the label "advanced" on them (more than likely that same marketing person had never played a warden). Until that time there was no "advanced" about them, it's sad that now warden's believe some transparent marketing ploy.
I know wardens don't want to hear it, but if you really want to be a main tank for a raid, it would be best for everyone if you were a Guardian.
When I was leveling my guardian I was always told the warden is the better tank. (I stated leveling my guard a few months after Siege of Mirkwood was released).
Now that I raid on my guardian I have yet to see which class is actually the better tank.
It's an argument that won't end (much like mini vs rk for heals).
I've seen some horrible wardens (I'm assuming they were using self heal gambits instead of aggro gambits and thus couldn't hold aggro on mobs) and horrible guards (from facing the boss/mob the the raid to not aggroing a mob). It's all about the player. Both classes have the skills (attacks) to hold aggro and live, it just comes down to player skill.
There are more guards than wardens since wardens are a paid class where guards are a free class. Many wardens also went under when RoI came out since they were having survival issues (at least, I think it was survival issues?). So in general people probably know more well played guards than well played wardens.
My kin and both raiding groups I've been in don't prefer one class over the other, they just prefer players who know how to maintain aggro and live (at least the raid groups do. I'm just the only tank in my kin, so the don't really have a choice).
If you ever listen to wardens they use the pronoun "I" a lot, that is because they are and always have been a solo class that has tried to move into the world of tanking. (Raiding is not a "I" activity, it is a "We" one).
When it comes to raiding no one cares how you do it, but your fellow raiders want you to play your class successfully. (no matter how much you wish it wasn't true, wardens are just not successful at raid tanking). If you talk to or read what most warden's have to say, their playing warden is about their play style, not what is best for the group.
No one cares how many buttons you push to grab the boss, survive the hits, stop or slow down problems that lead to wipes. They just want you to do it, and that is what a Guardian was designed to do and does.
From the launch of LOTRO forward, Guardians were designed to be the successful main tanks, wardens have required revamp after revamp, just to be a mediocre tank. (It shows you just how flawed a design the wardens are, that inorder to be sorta playable the devs have had to make them overpowered.)
warden's are a solo class that play is all about them, where Guardian's are about the raid group. Again most or the majority of groups in LOTRO will always benefit more by having a Guardian tank. (And the majority of player in LOTRO already know this.)
Another myth is the "advanced class", you do realized that when LOTRO went F2P, and they were trying to sell you the warden class, some marketing person slapped the label "advanced" on them (more than likely that same marketing person had never played a warden). Until that time there was no "advanced" about them, it's sad that now warden's believe some transparent marketing ploy.
I know wardens don't want to hear it, but if you really want to be a main tank for a raid, it would be best for everyone if you were a Guardian.
I'll bite on this. I've got a fully geared Warden and fully geared Guardian. I've been playing the warden much longer, (I only started and leveled the Guard after RoI when Warden's were getting steamrolled) and while each class has definitive advantages and disadvantages, a well played Warden brings more to the GROUP in a raid than a well played Guard. Just because theres probably a 20:1 ratio of bad warden tanks to good ones, doesn't mean the good ones aren't better than good guards. I'll freely admit I don't play my warden to its full potential, but I've successfully tanked t2 ToO on both , and our kin prefers me on warden, even when we're learning new wings.
You're only fooling yourself if you think a Warden isn't an advanced class, especially compared to a Guard. I soloed 100% up to level cap on my guard and hit 75 a few days before ToO was released. The only group content I had under my belt before tanking in ToO t1 was a couple skirm raids, and 1 or 2 foundry runs, and I had the class well enough understood to successfully tank wings on t1 back when that meant something, while still wearing plenty of quest/rep gear. Have i learned more about playing guard since then? absolutely; I'm a much better Guard now than then, but the difference in what I could handle then compared to now is not drastically different. Throwing out a completely baseless stat, I'd say that I can play my guard to about 90-95% of the class' potential (for tanking) simply because the class isn't that complex.
Warden on the other hand is completely different. Never mind actually learning what all the gambits are when you can't just look at tooltips on your hotbars, the mastery system means there are about 10 different ways to build A SINGLE 5 length gambit, each with tradeoffs in terms of speed, and the sacrifice to the speed of building future gambits, and all dependent on which masteries are on cooldown. Couple the complexity of building gambits with the fact that there are potentially >15 buffing gambits that can be kept up (compared to 1 regular and 3 medium to long cd guard skills that can increase survivability) along with ~7 viable threat skills, and anyone should be able to understand that the learning curve on a warden is infinitely steeper. Following my previous baseless stat about my guardian ability, I'd say I play my warden to 75-80% of its potential, and I still think it brings more to the group as a raid tank than my guard. The potential ability of truly skilled wardens really is that high.
None of this is to say I think Guard's are bad tanks, or a bad class. I have great fun playing my guard, and know i can get the job done (tanking. And I'm not saying guard dps can't be good, just that mine isn't) on it in any content. I'll even go so far as to admit when I'm forming a raid, need a tank, and don't think my group can faceroll the content, if i get a tell from both a guard and warden whom I don't know, I'll take the guard. Bad wardens are wipes waiting to happen, and there are a LOT of bad wardens out there.
Last edited by spelunker; Apr 27 2012 at 07:42 PM.
Warden myths lol
That guy made me laugh a lot.
Most funny he is saying we need revamp over revamp because Devs would need to make us overpowered. So if we are Overpowered we have already won the vs.
As far as i know we showed the Devs what we can do with the tools they gave us, then they realised we are far beyond others so they nerfed us. New content has left us a bit behind so we got pushed, till they realised again too powerful for their minds -> nerf. Sure that 1-2-3 metal-bucket can hardly get overpowered since its a boring design with almost no capabilities to do anything else than getting punished. I can understand, that compared to our flexibility you are getting mad. But hey you decided to play the trashcan.
For the majority of players or groups in LOTRO, a Good Guardian (and I would even say a average Guardian) is always going to be your best choice for a tank.
Yeah, no. Hard to take anything you say seriously after this.
I'll bring an average guardian to Foundry t2 happily. I won't let an average tank tie my shoes in Orthanc T2.
Great wardens hold threat better than great guardians. If they are likewise able to survive raidboss dps then i'd rather bring a warden, even if it means we'd have to heal 10% more. I've said before, I've been in a lot more wipes due to lost agro than I have to the tank dying prematurely. We could tell our dps to slow down, but T2 doesn't facilitate that. So we just cross our fingers and hope engage doesn't miss.
Anyway wardens should be better, they're harder to play. There really aren't that many stellar amazing wardens floating around anymore, i wouldn't worry about your spot getting stolen; And if it does... Make a burglar... Or a warden. Guardians will still be better for many things.
Warden myths lol
That guy made me laugh a lot.
Most funny he is saying we need revamp over revamp because Devs would need to make us overpowered. So if we are Overpowered we have already won the vs.
As far as i know we showed the Devs what we can do with the tools they gave us, then they realised we are far beyond others so they nerfed us. New content has left us a bit behind so we got pushed, till they realised again too powerful for their minds -> nerf. Sure that 1-2-3 metal-bucket can hardly get overpowered since its a boring design with almost no capabilities to do anything else than getting punished. I can understand, that compared to our flexibility you are getting mad. But hey you decided to play the trashcan.
Just because something is more complicated doesn't make it better.
Think about it like a relationship. No one envies a 'complicated' relationship.
The guardian class is much simpler game play, yes, but that does not make it inferior.
Wardens are truly delusional when it comes to their class. There is no great conspiracy in LOTRO that is keeping them from being a preferred tank; it is just that they are a poor design that is not a good choice for a tank.
Groups don't care about who is tanking in raids they just want to be successful. People know that by using a Guardian as a main tank, they are going to have much fewer problems.
You don't have to take my word for it, it has been three years (yes, three years) since wardens were introduced and they are still not a preferred tank or even a equal one.
An average Guardian is > than a good warden.
A good Guardian is > than a great warden.
A great Guardian is > than all other tanks.
(The only problem with Guardian players now is that a lot are waiting till the end game to start tanking for fellowships. Guards need to start tanking early and often to hone their skills for raid tanking. I know that it is tough now that Turbine has made the game into a mostly solo one, but Guardians you need to be tanking in fellowships at the earliest possible time.)
And another warden myth:
that people don't like wardens because they have never run with a "good" warden. Why is it that wardens as a class have a majority of "bad" players? Is it that the people who pick wardens to play are just bad at mmos or is the class a flawed design?
Seeing that none of the other classes in LOTRO have a "good" vs "bad" player problem I would say that it is the latter. (Yes, Yes, I know wardens are an advance class, and in their spare time they are busy splitting atoms.)
Once again I would suggest to all you wardens spending time in the Guardians forums trying to prove your worth or anyone that desires to be the main tank for raids, roll a Guardian, everyone will be happier for it.
An average Guardian is > than a good warden.
A good Guardian is > than a great warden.
A great Guardian is > than all other tanks.
I have to disagree with you there. Wardens are a great deal more complex than guardians, however, when played correctly they trump us in every regard. A good deal of the warden's taunts rely on draining it's group of aggro over time. This makes it gain a lot more aggro, however it takes a while. I have seen warden tanks on my server, and some of them just cannot lose aggro.
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mohandas Gandhi
Why the hell do the Mods let these threads exist as they will ALWAYS turn into a **** fest between the Guardian/Warden supporters. Hi, they both seem to be working now.
Wardens must be so much better than Guards in terms of survivability now, though I don't know how their ability to hold aggro is compared to Guards now that EoB finally got fixed.
Wardens have gotten so many buffs since RoI came out.
They now have insane crit immunity (higher crit defense than Guards, + crit immunity for x s any time after they are critted), significant self heals, 90% mitigation for 30s every 2m30s, & massive AoE heal leeches. The only times you should choose a Guard for survivability over a Warden (if you had the choice) is for something like the Shadow boss.
That said, so few people actually play wardens these days I haven't seen them do much in practice. But on paper they are amazing. The crit defense/immunity buffs massively negates their susceptibility to spike damage, and the (+40%) mitigation buff (which is in a lot of ways better than pledge) combined with high self heals means they will require way less healing than a Guard for even raid bosses (though they are drastically more powerful when tanking multiple/less hard hitting mobs).
Wow...that was pretty much what I anticipated when I "campaigned" so heavily last summer. It took a while...had not counted on the heavy armor mitigation boost miscalculation made by devs in seeking to help champ/tanks, then making guards very tough as a consequence...but knew they would get around to overboosting wardens eventually...think I even predicted it directly over many contemporaneous accusations of my having a tin hat wardrobe.
Since OP moors play sounds an unpleasant shadow of what I had enjoyed most still and also...I suppose I will continue to hibernate, but look in here from time to time for posts from some of the "old guard" - pun intended- who can serve as a sort of known quantity by which to guage from your current impressions, an extrapolation of my own, were I to return.
Wardens have:
-stronger aggro (yes we dont make aggro in most of time)
~50% avoidance after combat analisys
~25% partial avoidance after combat analisys ->theses both need to build up (and worh=0 in too shadow boss)
-nice self heals
-Morale leeches
-Heal after each block
-"Last Stand" = long duration buff, if u reach 0 morale u not die , you got healed up to 50% max morale (+inc heal +traits... etc, so in reality up to 75% of max morale)
-Mitigation survival skill
-Only 50% mitigation
-Spike damage problem (need more max morale, or better reflexes from healers)
Guardians have:
-Easier work (they just must take uop aggro nothing else)
-75% mitigation
-shield wall
-aggro copy
-force aggro
-passive defense
-avoidance survival skill
-doing less aggro in same time if both class using only aggro skills
Guardias are a lot easyer (and boring ofc) to play. In small instances wardens are god mode (if well played) draigoch need no heal, founndry t2hm need heal only at last twin bosses.. etc. Also 75% (or more) of wardens arent well played(if only warden main chars counted, with warden alts are a lot more wadens), that is why groups not try to inv wardens. In raid content both is a good tank (ofc wardens isnt best choice in shadow boss, needed more heals, also can hold aggro there a lot stronger). I had begun an guard alt but it was boring after wardedn... just a meat shield waiting for response then push tehe open buttons etc. . Wardens always have al skills open but that is why a lot harder to play warden. Also most guards not know any well played warden.
Guards have 1 (one) force taunt, its called challenge, its on a 45 seconds cd, 30 if traited, that is it, nothing more.
It last for 10 seconds, 13 if traited.
Stop saying it like we have multiple force taunts that we can spam, we do not.
Challenge the Darkness is a legendary skill on a 10 (ten) minute cd, and is just not worth using 99% of the time.
Since OP moors play sounds an unpleasant shadow of what I had enjoyed most still and also...I suppose I will continue to hibernate, but look in here from time to time for posts from some of the "old guard" - pun intended- who can serve as a sort of known quantity by which to guage from your current impressions, an extrapolation of my own, were I to return.
So... you rolled a guard to play in the moors? The good news is, if you rolled a guard to tank, they are pretty much still the best tank in the game.
FYI
I don't need one single heal while tanking Draigoch and I don't use any exploits, just regular tanking.
I also manage FM so that the rest can focus on dmg.
Guards? Yes - we can : )
The biggest problem with wardens as a class, is that by the time the players figure out how to properly play and maximize the "advanced" potentials....the devs revamp combat, break things and then have to provide wardens with a whole different set of overpowered skills that set them back to square one on a learning curve.
Someday the players may catch up with their toons, I suppose...but by the time the clasees then come close to a proper balance again, where just some few remaining specific areas may need attention for balance, in either direction.... as was the case pre-Roi...instead of just attending those final tweaks for parity...it will be time for the devs to break things again. The wheels on the bus go round and round....
I thought I would pop over from the Warden forums to pose a question for you all.
Who do you find groups prefer to run with for end game raids main tanking. Wardens or Guards?
(note this is not a trolling post, this is a 'what is the general consensus out there' post)
Personally I have found that I am considered a second class tank to a guard for end game content.
For example last night for ToO T2 lightning, I was the only tank available and the kin said we NEED our two guards online.
I have not done ToO T2 lightning before, but I don't think it requires three tanks does it?
If it does fair enough, but if it doesn't then why would the raid feel like they needed two guards as tanks, over a Guard and a Warden.
Thoughts please
All the groups I've been in (and listened to in Regional) usually say:
"person1 says, '3/6 GB. Looking for heal and tank, preferably Warden"
Wardens must be so much better than Guards in terms of survivability now, though I don't know how their ability to hold aggro is compared to Guards now that EoB finally got fixed.
Wardens have gotten so many buffs since RoI came out.
They now have insane crit immunity (higher crit defense than Guards, + crit immunity for x s any time after they are critted), significant self heals, 90% mitigation for 30s every 2m30s, & massive AoE heal leeches. The only times you should choose a Guard for survivability over a Warden (if you had the choice) is for something like the Shadow boss.
That said, so few people actually play wardens these days I haven't seen them do much in practice. But on paper they are amazing. The crit defense/immunity buffs massively negates their susceptibility to spike damage, and the (+40%) mitigation buff (which is in a lot of ways better than pledge) combined with high self heals means they will require way less healing than a Guard for even raid bosses (though they are drastically more powerful when tanking multiple/less hard hitting mobs).
Warden are not 'so much better' than Guards when it comes to survivability, no way.
As much as Wardens have a bit of crit immunity, that first crit still hurts a lot more on a Warden than on a Guardian. Furthermore, that 5-6s crit immunity only works once every 45 seconds, leaving Wardens to be fragile to double/tripple crits most of the time in combat.
Self heals are rather significant, but they require a lot of work to achieve, which means you have to let go of potential threat and/or BPE buffs to build the selfheals. Aggro leeches help a lot here in fellowship, but in raids you still risk someone in the other fellow steals aggro.
90% mitigation is rather nice, but it is not that different from Pledge. Furthermore, it has a very long animation time which often ruins it as a "O beep" button where Pledge (AFAIK) is a lot faster to activate.
Massive AoE heal leeches? They're really nice for 3-6 mans and skraids, but they're not of much use in ToO T2 (apart from threat from EoB), if you tank 10 mobs in ToO T2 on a Warden, those leeches are not going to make much of a difference.
The only ToO boss where Wardens have a survivability advantage is Saruman. This is because the high DPS skills are given to random people in the raid so the damage taken on the tanks are generally lower.
Originally Posted by MorliX
Wow...that was pretty much what I anticipated when I "campaigned" so heavily last summer. It took a while...had not counted on the heavy armor mitigation boost miscalculation made by devs in seeking to help champ/tanks, then making guards very tough as a consequence...but knew they would get around to overboosting wardens eventually...think I even predicted it directly over many contemporaneous accusations of my having a tin hat wardrobe.
Since OP moors play sounds an unpleasant shadow of what I had enjoyed most still and also...I suppose I will continue to hibernate, but look in here from time to time for posts from some of the "old guard" - pun intended- who can serve as a sort of known quantity by which to guage from your current impressions, an extrapolation of my own, were I to return.
Wardens are far from overboosted, on the other hand they're only just beginning to be useful in raids.
As already stated, the released information up to RoI launch did NOT include the game-changing detail that heavy armor mitigation was being boosted. The guardian dev was (and largely still remains) uncommunicative...while the champ/warden dev was amazingly detailed and prolific in response to his classes at that time. There was a period when it sounded that guardians would be sorely left behind defensively, and but for the heavy armor boost -- that was done most expressly to assist the odd, unnecessary but directly stated intention (by Orion) to attempt to make CHAMPS, "equally viable main tanks" and the effects thereof being entirely underestimated by the devs with respect to the balance between guards and wardens -- that indeed would have been the case. By a secondary effect of poorly thought-out combat system / general mechanic changes, the guardian class "lucked into" much more defensive solidity than the actually released paucity of information and changes directly being made to guards, ever indicated.
That said...my main concern/objection was and remains the relative erosion in effectiveness of OP stance and the decision by the devs to have champs boosted in our (guards' and wardens') primary tanking role, while guards were NOT comparatively boosted in reverse for balanced incursion into the champs primary dps role. Relatively speaking, the greater boost in dps to every other class (possible exception of warden), reduced the guard's position in the hierarchy of dps production, despite the level increase upping dps in general...just not as much as other classes. I have ALWAYS advocated directly for true balance between and acceptance of wardens as truly co-equal main tanks, and encouraged both classes to support buffs to either as the case may turn out to be required, to establish rebalancing likely necessary after RoI. I also expressed a lack of faith in the devs ability to NOT make overboosting errors to wardens at some point...and it sounds as if that potential may currently exist in the newer tools that have been given to wardens more recently. I am sure you now have seen some prior posts from me advocating mutual support between the true tank classes, so am not going to bother requoting them once more...this argument need not persist imo.
It took some significant time post-moria for the "we are the fellowship" potentials of the first gen wardens to be fully realized...and wardens were once truly awesome in their capabilities. I suspect some extra potentials in this regard have now been restored and lurk still untapped below the surface, which is not meant as any judgment as to players' skill levels in general, but simply time yet spent analyzing and optimizing...but as said, that would seem easy enough to rebalance if it proves necessary eventually, if players again learn over time to optimize for unwarranted levels of uberness.
My main reason for boycotting guardian play post RoI has always been because I simply lacked the desire to play in the moors with a diminished OP effectiveness, relative to other classes' adjustments. It just does not sound fun to me anymore.
Nice gratuitous personal attack and skewed version of forum history!
As already stated, the released information up to RoI launch did NOT include the game-changing detail that heavy armor mitigation was being boosted. The guardian dev was (and largely still remains) uncommunicative...while the champ/warden dev was amazingly detailed and prolific in response to his classes at that time. There was a period when it sounded that guardians would be sorely left behind defensively, and but for the heavy armor boost -- that was done most expressly to assist the odd, unnecessary but directly stated intention (by Orion) to attempt to make CHAMPS, "equally viable main tanks" and the effects thereof being entirely underestimated by the devs with respect to the balance between guards and wardens -- that indeed would have been the case. By a secondary effect of poorly thought-out combat system / general mechanic changes, the guardian class "lucked into" much more defensive solidity than the actually released paucity of information and changes directly being made to guards, ever indicated.
Indeed, much information was not released, yet you found it fitting to deny any claims on my part that there just might be some information that we did not know of, e.g. if the itemization would be advantagous to guardians.
Originally Posted by MorliX
That said...my main concern/objection was and remains the relative erosion in effectiveness of OP stance and the decision by the devs to have champs boosted in our (guards' and wardens') primary tanking role, while guards were NOT comparatively boosted in reverse for balanced incursion into the champs primary dps role. Relatively speaking, the greater boost in dps to every other class (possible exception of warden), reduced the guard's position in the hierarchy of dps production, despite the level increase upping dps in general...just not as much as other classes. I have ALWAYS advocated directly for true balance between and acceptance of wardens as truly co-equal main tanks, and encouraged both classes to support buffs to either as the case may turn out to be required, to establish rebalancing likely necessary after RoI. I also expressed a lack of faith in the devs ability to NOT make overboosting errors to wardens at some point...and it sounds as if that potential may currently exist in the newer tools that have been given to wardens more recently. I am sure you now have seen some prior posts from me advocating mutual support between the true tank classes, so am not going to bother requoting them once more...this argument need not persist imo.
That being said, you were writing in a Warden vs Guardian tank thread discussing whether Wardens would surpass Guardians when it comes to tanking. Feel free to say anything you want about Grd OP in Moors and Champ tank abilities, I dont know anything about that and I dont really care about it. I do mind when someone is adamant that Wardens would be superior to Guardians and completely skewer the thread even though much information was kept from us.
Originally Posted by MorliX
It took some significant time post-moria for the "we are the fellowship" potentials of the first gen wardens to be fully realized...and wardens were once truly awesome in their capabilities. I suspect some extra potentials in this regard have now been restored and lurk still untapped below the surface, which is not meant as any judgment as to players' skill levels in general, but simply time yet spent analyzing and optimizing...but as said, that would seem easy enough to rebalance if it proves necessary eventually, if players again learn over time to optimize for unwarranted levels of uberness.
My main reason for boycotting guardian play post RoI has always been because I simply lacked the desire to play in the moors with a diminished OP effectiveness, relative to other classes' adjustments. It just does not sound fun to me anymore.
Again, you can say everything you want about OP guards in moors without me interfering, I'm only interested in the tanking of raids and ensuring Wardens are on par with Guardians.
Of course it takes time to learn a toon, but back in Moria it was a completely new class. That is not the case this time, on the other hand I'd say tanking has been simplified for Wardens, we got a true tanking stance now rather than 2 half-baked ones, we got a true tanking trait line instead of a survivability line and a rather useless fist line. Many of the weaknesses has been fixed with crit defense and a "O bleep" skill as it was put by the Dev.
However, I dont agree that Wardens are better than Guardians in raid, with the exception of the Saruman because of the way damage is dealt in that fight. The damage taken from the Saruman copies is rather low and Wardens can outheal that in most cases, allowing the healers to focus on people who take big hits from AoE, lightning strikes etc. Conviction heals about 200-300 every 3 seconds, which pretty much negates the small acid puddles up there, which is quite helpful to the healers as well.
You can disagree with other posters in this thread all you want, and whose opinions I was directly commenting on, since I have been boycotting play and have no current direct experience with ward or guard. That is perfectly acceptable, and actually more information is a good thing. If you truly bother to review more fairly the wide panoply of posts from me (some which I troubled to repost last night before dev intervention, but haven't the energy again), you should be able to recognize that despite my concerns for guardians, I also repeated many times that guards and wards ought assist one another toward a mutual balance, buffing either as needed and in turn...together defending our shared role against incursion from champs or any other class. There were threads where I specifically shouted down certain askew guardian sentiments from some posters, about wardens having no place at "our table" and the like...so you unfairly paint me as an enemy of the warden. I was the first guard who actually crossed the aisle and posted direct support for the warden's genuine need for a post-death threat recovery mechansim, as well as for added crit defense...so your attack really is an offbase concentration of a period in posting when I was very unhappy in general with major changes coming down the pike, and while guards dev was silent while huge reports for champs and wards were rolling in...many major combat/gameplay changes of which are still bemoaned in warden threads to this day as well.
I think we desire the same thing, for a true balance between the main tank classes...and right now you have a much better sense of the state of things than I. It is only the incomplete and hostile account of posting history that I find objectionable, of a past time that I openly explained evolved differently than expected as to tanking, because of the undisclosed change to heavy armor mitigation, that was unknown at the time the discussions were then seemingly pertinent.
What? wardens got a skill giving them a lot-lot-lot and even more mitigation for a real long time?
You guys know what is useless for a guard nowadays?
I help a bit: It has 10 mins of cd...
Ya got it?
Yep, it's challenge the darkness!
Let's change it to something like the warden's mitigation buff pls...
I completely agree with you....except:
In ToO t2 I've had to recently slot CtD to have a 2nd engage skill due to the fact that most boss fights are simply DPS races and sometimes the DPSers with all the FA LIs can outpace the cd on my engage. Other than that....hate the damn skill and its 10m CD and its basically worthless except for this very narrow usage.
In ToO t2 I've had to recently slot CtD to have a 2nd engage skill due to the fact that most boss fights are simply DPS races and sometimes the DPSers with all the FA LIs can outpace the cd on my engage. Other than that....hate the damn skill and its 10m CD and its basically worthless except for this very narrow usage.
Not only can it be an AOE second engage skill, but it is also a second (and longer) challenge. With traited challenge, you can chain challenge + CtD + challenge again and engage for 43 of forced aggro, and nearly enough threat from threat copy alone to hold aggro in threat stance over your DPSers until challenge goes off CD again. If you only have to hold a boss for 1mn13s, everyone can DPS without any aggro problem. If you need to hold for longer, start building aggro after your engage, and ask for a threat transfer at 1mn10s, and you should be safe.
If you ever listen to wardens they use the pronoun "I" a lot, that is because they are and always have been a solo class that has tried to move into the world of tanking. (Raiding is not a "I" activity, it is a "We" one).
When it comes to raiding no one cares how you do it, but your fellow raiders want you to play your class successfully. (no matter how much you wish it wasn't true, wardens are just not successful at raid tanking). If you talk to or read what most warden's have to say, their playing warden is about their play style, not what is best for the group.
No one cares how many buttons you push to grab the boss, survive the hits, stop or slow down problems that lead to wipes. They just want you to do it, and that is what a Guardian was designed to do and does.
From the launch of LOTRO forward, Guardians were designed to be the successful main tanks, wardens have required revamp after revamp, just to be a mediocre tank. (It shows you just how flawed a design the wardens are, that inorder to be sorta playable the devs have had to make them overpowered.)
warden's are a solo class that play is all about them, where Guardian's are about the raid group. Again most or the majority of groups in LOTRO will always benefit more by having a Guardian tank. (And the majority of player in LOTRO already know this.)
Another myth is the "advanced class", you do realized that when LOTRO went F2P, and they were trying to sell you the warden class, some marketing person slapped the label "advanced" on them (more than likely that same marketing person had never played a warden). Until that time there was no "advanced" about them, it's sad that now warden's believe some transparent marketing ploy.
I know wardens don't want to hear it, but if you really want to be a main tank for a raid, it would be best for everyone if you were a Guardian.
Couldnt agree more just about every update there e is there piles of warden fixes / changes !
As for holding aggro it shouldnt be an issue unless your playing with complete idiots .
And lastly if Wardens are so great why are they never out of the Guard form section !
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Originally Posted by Jatayu
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. Wardens always have al skills open but that is why a lot harder to play warden. Also most guards not know any well played warden.
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