I thought I would pop over from the Warden forums to pose a question for you all.
Who do you find groups prefer to run with for end game raids main tanking. Wardens or Guards?
(note this is not a trolling post, this is a 'what is the general consensus out there' post)
Personally I have found that I am considered a second class tank to a guard for end game content.
For example last night for ToO T2 lightning, I was the only tank available and the kin said we NEED our two guards online.
I have not done ToO T2 lightning before, but I don't think it requires three tanks does it?
If it does fair enough, but if it doesn't then why would the raid feel like they needed two guards as tanks, over a Guard and a Warden.
Warden have their mitigations capped at 50%, guards at 70%. This is why you take guards. The discussion is a little more complicated, but this is basically what it all boils down to. Also, lightning t2 needs just one tank good luck with your warden though, they're epic in 3- and 6-man content!
If you have good gear, and are good at picking up mobs quickly etc., I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be seen as capable of tanking Lightning t2.. I know of at least two kins who do this with wrd/grd combos, and from what I can tell, those runs go fairly smoothly. That said, at least on the boss it is probably just as easy to single-tank him (having 1 tank switch to healer) as it is to switch between tanks (though I don't know if a wrd could single-tank that guy).
As a capped healer that runs some 12man content I must say that I prefer a Guardian, although I'm not sure why.
Maybe they are just better at what they are doing (cause they concentrate on it from the beginning) than the Wardens I've met, or have better gear.
I'm not saying I have never run with a Warden main tanking (although there is a higher chance something will go wrong from my experience), but I find it easier to heal a Guardian, and as such I prefer them, although I would never turn down a Warden which knows what he is doing.
But I love them in Moors for their survivability, you can 2man tyrants with them no problem.
Just something from my view and experience. Maybe I have just not seen many great tanking Wardens.
And it can also be solo tanked by a warden. This has already been done prior to Update 6.1. But I guess the discussion is the same as Minstrel vs. Runekeeper ... most groups tend to think, that they can only have success with two minstrels.
Warden have their mitigations capped at 50%, guards at 70%. This is why you take guards. The discussion is a little more complicated, but this is basically what it all boils down to. Also, lightning t2 needs just one tank good luck with your warden though, they're epic in 3- and 6-man content!
Wardens can also Tank Draigoch without ever needing healing. The 20% difference in mitigations is countered by the self healing components and the higher B/P/E which is how the class is intended.
It does seem to be though that Wardens are still considered 'inferior' tanks by many out there despite getting a serious boost to theri survivability in update 6.
For example with defiant challenge our mitigations are at 90% cap for 30 seconds, every 2-3 minutes depending on legacies.
As a capped healer that runs some 12man content I must say that I prefer a Guardian, although I'm not sure why.
Funnily, I've had the exact oposite experience. The groups I usually run with (on my level-capped minstrel) are more guardian heavy, but the times I have been in a group with a warden I have always felt it was smoother and easier to heal the tank than my average experience with guardian tanks. Maybe they work better with my prefered minstrel traiting (4y/3b), maybe I've only been grouped with exceptional wardens (although the guardians I usually play with really know their class, too), I don't know, but I'd go with a warden any day.
I'm hoping to see things from the other side soon. My warden currently is in Dunland and my guardian in Moria, and right now I actually find the warden easier to play than the guardian (in group situations, even though I haven't got all that much experience with either yet). I'm really looking forward to getting them both to level cap and experiencing the difference between both classes first-hand.
My kin certainly know that I am a capable warden, I tanked Saruman T1 with them the other day, which was my first time doing so. We only wiped the once because they forgot to tell me that I get silenced if I go near the one in the middle resulting in me having no shouty aggro skills.
Second time round tanked 3 of them in one place while the guard kited the rest. When the healers were struggling to keep up with the dmg, I popped DC and problem solved. Then has NS as a backup while DC was on cooldown "just in case" which I never ended up using.
For example with defiant challenge our mitigations are at 90% cap for 30 seconds, every 2-3 minutes depending on legacies.
Really?
That is not the way I read the skill.
I did not read "Increases tactical and physical mitigation by 40%"
I read "Decreases incoming damage by 40%"
Did I miss-read? Did I miss a change? The difference is pretty significant as increasing mitigation is added to current mitigation, while decreased damage incoming is multiplied.
So instead of having 90% mitigation... you have 70% mitigation (50% incoming damage, then reduced by 40% of the mitigated damage.) So every few minutes you can equal a guardians mitigation for a few seconds.
To some extent the issue is simply that a bad warden is MUCH worse then a bad guard, and a good warden isn't much better (if any) then a good guard.
This does not get any better when the issue is made worse by most PUG wardens (at least in the groups with my guard or hunter) being terrible. Personally, I think a well played warden should be the preferred main tank on anything but ToO right now, and certainly that can be doable. It isn't likely to happen in my kin though, as our main raid leader has been burned too many times by wardens that could not stay alive... or hold aggro (before and after 6.1)
Personally, I figure a warden that couldnt hold aggro with the bugged EoB should consider some research on what the gambits do, but there just are not enough "Good" wardens to counteract the bad right now... especially when even the good ones need to relearn some stuff. (and no... I don't care HOW GOOD you are in the moors)
And it can also be solo tanked by a warden. This has already been done prior to Update 6.1. But I guess the discussion is the same as Minstrel vs. Runekeeper ... most groups tend to think, that they can only have success with two minstrels.
I have no hard time believing this to be true, it's just an unnecessarily high strain on the healers. Prior to 6.1 aggro on wardens was a joke though, 1 EoB and everything stuck to you like glue. Now that this has changed, I can imagine wardens actually have to work for their aggro giving them less time for selfheals and building defences. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just think after 6.1 it got a little harder.
Also, I actually *prefer* RK healing myself nowadays, though our kin still runs with 2 minstrels as main healers in our static raid group.
Guards can tank Draigoch without needing heals aswell, many people just make the mistake that they need to have the head's aggro though. ^^
Quite a few people bring up the wardens' high avoidances. I'm sorry but I keep wondering if these people ever run T2 orthanc, where mobs have *ridiculous* amounts of finesse and avoidances really do not count for as much as you'd want.
I did hear something about wardens getting some kind of critical hit immunity after getting critted on, which I can imagine being a very powerful tool against spike damage. Most (good) wardens don't die because of a stream of constant damage, they die because of a couple high hits in a row, which a guard with it's higher mitigations and higher critical defence would probably have survived.
This is just my take on things though, and the reasons listed here are the main reasons I don't like to take wardens as main tanks to T2. For anything else they're fine and, if played well, possibly even better than guards.
Hope you're not actually suggesting the use of an exploit here ^^
If this is an exploit (which, come to think of it, it probably is..) Turbine's taking a mighty long time to fix it!
And about the healers, I think we're kinda drifting off topic this discussion is about wardens' viability as a serious raiding tank, which I quite frankly have a hard time believing in. Wardens do have their uses though I guess.. Kiting comes to mind?
Normally unbuffed by mitigations sit just below the cap around 42-45% depending on what gear I am running at the time.
With DC on those numbers jump to 82-84% in my character sheet.
So yes a miti capped warden would have 90% mitigations for 30 seconds.
To clarify the warden crit immunity too, yes this does work. When you take a crit, you become immune to further critical hits for a short duration. The effect cannot be applied again for a slightly longer duration. This really helps stop spike damage to the Warden.
I do agree though that an average guard in good gear will perform better than an average warden in good gear and that there is little to choose between a well played guard and a well played warden.
It also might be gear/equipment issues, it might be tank coordination, it might be courtesy, one of the guards might be looking for the shield from the scroll case, there's all sorts of reasons a kin might want to wait until "their guards" are on that isn't class related.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Wardens must be so much better than Guards in terms of survivability now, though I don't know how their ability to hold aggro is compared to Guards now that EoB finally got fixed.
Wardens have gotten so many buffs since RoI came out.
They now have insane crit immunity (higher crit defense than Guards, + crit immunity for x s any time after they are critted), significant self heals, 90% mitigation for 30s every 2m30s, & massive AoE heal leeches. The only times you should choose a Guard for survivability over a Warden (if you had the choice) is for something like the Shadow boss.
That said, so few people actually play wardens these days I haven't seen them do much in practice. But on paper they are amazing. The crit defense/immunity buffs massively negates their susceptibility to spike damage, and the (+40%) mitigation buff (which is in a lot of ways better than pledge) combined with high self heals means they will require way less healing than a Guard for even raid bosses (though they are drastically more powerful when tanking multiple/less hard hitting mobs).
In light of the roller coaster known as RoI I'd have to go with guardian. Even if things are OK for the warden now, the past six months haven't been pretty.
Guards have better mitigations, threat utility (swap, build, leech, copy, force) and comparable avoidance (totals). My guard is still a baby but the ability to keep your buffs up and generate threat seems much more manageable. Keeping HoTs, buffs up on a warden and dealing with threat isn't always easy and for new wardens is a nightmare.
The gambit system makes balancing skills for the warden difficult, due to the spamable nature of the mechanic. The last update took our legendary gambit Defiant Challenge and made it a clicky with a cooldown. Leaving it as a gambit would have made the warden the easiest tank to play in the history of MMOs. Also worth mentioning is difficulty of new wardens to learn how to play. Forty or so gambits which effects depend on what stance you're in out of 3 that can be built using double builders or single builders. Even seasoned wardens have difficulty telling you the exact effects of a gambit now in all three stances.
Wardens are a great solo class and when played at a high level can compete with guardians in raid tanking situation. When not played at a high level, you're better off with a burg tanking. I don't care for pvp in LOTRO, but I've heard they are decent out there. Orion has done a decent job of trying to fix what RoI broke, but it demonstrated to me that it is a hard class to balance and will likely continue to be a class that has to deal with many peaks and valleys going forward. It's fun to play, but I'm going to work on a guard going forward for my tanking fix.
We run ToO T2 with guardian or warden, no preference.
I can imagine that your folks wanted two guards, if they aggro-swap Lightning Boss. I'd agree that this is more complicated with guard+warden than with 2 guards. However, as others have mentioned, a warden can solo-tank Lightning without a problem.
My kin certainly know that I am a capable warden, I tanked Saruman T1 with them the other day, which was my first time doing so. We only wiped the once because they forgot to tell me that I get silenced if I go near the one in the middle resulting in me having no shouty aggro skills.
Second time round tanked 3 of them in one place while the guard kited the rest. When the healers were struggling to keep up with the dmg, I popped DC and problem solved. Then has NS as a backup while DC was on cooldown "just in case" which I never ended up using.
Wardens have less mits when guards and of course healing a warden can be harder sometimes if the warden cannot compensate that (duo lack of experience on end-game content + not the best gear) keeping defense up and some autoheals. The opposite also happen, wardens can be very easy to heal if they manage to keep their defense up and some autoheals. My warden have little more then 28% incoming healing rate with raid set armour buffs (3x600 ihr, one for each autoheal I use).
The main issue from my point of view is that wardens are one of the hardest classes to play and for us wardens, 1 mistake on end-game content might mean a wipe. Where guardians are easier and 1 mistake hardly matters. That happen when u got silenced by Saruman, not your mistake since it was your 1st run, but that would hardly mean a wipe with a guardian. So, in general, it is safer to have two guards.
Since update 6 (and before RoI) a good skilled/geared warden can do as good or better when guardians (depends on the situation). ToO T2 lightning boss for one, wardens (skilled/geared) do great and better then guards because our BPE are better and we will have less static shocks.
Edit: BTW, in a T1 Saruman run, a skilled/geared warden can tank all Sarumans on phase5 without kiting.
That said, at least on the boss it is probably just as easy to single-tank him (having 1 tank switch to healer) as it is to switch between tanks (though I don't know if a wrd could single-tank that guy).
Delheru has been single tanking kablak T2 CM even before 6.1. So yes it is possible.
From what I've heard, never having done it myself, ToO is among the instances best-suited for Guardian-tanking over Warden-tanking, so if thats your only point of reference it may be a bit skewed towards Guards.
Tanking overall, you'll encounter the usual Wardophobia, but anecdotal reports are that we do just fine when we're played with skill and ability. And those were even before the 6.1 changes - with the new DC, our tankability got a BIG increase, with a forced taunt and a 30 sec god mode.
Delheru has been single tanking kablak T2 CM even before 6.1. So yes it is possible.
OK, i've run teir 2 lightning many times with my warden and have had no issue's with gaurd as the other tank.
I would like to know how you could solo tank him with the static buildup then? Once it hits 10 it's insta death and he would be on the next guy. And in all the times I have run it I could never make it the whole fight without hitting 10 at least once on the buildup.
OK, i've run teir 2 lightning many times with my warden and have had no issue's with gaurd as the other tank.
I would like to know how you could solo tank him with the static buildup then? Once it hits 10 it's insta death and he would be on the next guy. And in all the times I have run it I could never make it the whole fight without hitting 10 at least once on the buildup.
I've been solo tanking this T2 for the past month now. Once the build up gets to 8 step back about 10m metters and wait for the shock to hit you. Move back in position and rince and repeat. Make sure your near full health because you can and will take a crit for 11k on the shock. It's a lot easier to solo tank this fight than to double tank it.
For what it's worth we've been running Lightning T2C with a Warden since the raid came out, no problem. Guard and Warden are both completely viable here and there are pros and cons to either class. I've noticed the higher avoidance on the Warden tends to give them an edge in keeping their debuff down, which is nice in both the solo and tank-swap versions of the fight.
But, naturally, whatever makeup a particular group prefers is up to them.
I know anecdotal evidence is not scientific and proves nothing at all. That said, I have attempted Saruman T1 in these roles:
- DPS with 1 guard and 1 warden tanking (3 wipes)
- Tank with guard as other tank (3 different nights, many many wipes)
- Tank with warden as other tank (1 night, 1 wipe followed by a win)
The one time I actually beat Saruman was the last one with two wardens and no guard. And it was easier by a long shot. Obviously there's a lot else factored in - people potting correctly, phase 2 overhealing, clouds, and everything else that can go wrong. So dunno how much of the smooth run was from the tanking and how much was just a lucky PUG with people who understood what they were supposed to do. But it was like a million times smoother.
I know anecdotal evidence is not scientific and proves nothing at all. That said, I have attempted Saruman T1 in these roles:
- DPS with 1 guard and 1 warden tanking (3 wipes)
- Tank with guard as other tank (3 different nights, many many wipes)
- Tank with warden as other tank (1 night, 1 wipe followed by a win)
The one time I actually beat Saruman was the last one with two wardens and no guard. And it was easier by a long shot. Obviously there's a lot else factored in - people potting correctly, phase 2 overhealing, clouds, and everything else that can go wrong. So dunno how much of the smooth run was from the tanking and how much was just a lucky PUG with people who understood what they were supposed to do. But it was like a million times smoother.
It has to do more with player skill and gear- as well as the player skill and gear of the rest of the folks in the raid.
Vernora ~ 65 Guardian ~ Endeavor
"The Guardian is a great class for elves because they can use the shield as a mirror when putting on lipstick."
guards def, not only do they have higher mits but most grdsvs wardens the grd can build and hold aggro much more effectively, altho i know this isnt the case all the time
Lightning T2C: guard and warden both solo tank
Fire and Ice T2: Warden on first giant, guard on second (higher hits soloing that boss; mits=meat shield)
Acid T2c: Warden always, guard never
ShadowT2(&C): Warden MT Guard as an off tank
SarumanT1: Guard and Warden both solo tank
They way things look local tank wise, definitely putting gold in ye olde guardian 401k.
The main issue for us in the tanking spectrum is aggro management because of high DPS, we have great players in all roles.
Last edited by HorsesAll; Apr 21 2012 at 09:31 PM.
So our group runs with a warden/guard combo most of the time through the raid contents.
In L2c we don't have issues swapping agro back and forth now, though initially it took a little getting used to the differences in how each builds agro. We've even had to 'solo' tank it due to accidents or whatever with both guard and warden and have success with both. Guard switches to block stance, uses pledge twice, etc as necessary to keep the shock down and then if it gets too high just does step back and eats the dmg. Warden does seem to do a little better overall due to higher B/P/E with keeping the shock tiered down.
For Fire/Frost guardian tanks both giants while the warden grabs up the other thingies and kites them all around.
In general, our group has decided that the guardian can better take the 'big hits' including stopping and tanking 9 of the saruman on wave 5 of ToO. The warden is better at kiting everything that needs to be kited. Warden does a bit better at group agro, while guardian is a bit better at single target agro. Also, Guardian is better suited to group agro where some things in nearby vicinity are CCed due to guard agro not breaking CC.
Wardens and guards do what they do in pretty different ways and both are very good main tanks. However, I echo the sentiment that there are TONS of bad wardens out there and a bad warden is much, much worse than a bad guard.
Who do you find groups prefer to run with for end game raids main tanking. Wardens or Guards?
(note this is not a trolling post, this is a 'what is the general consensus out there' post)
Personally I don't care. I give each person the benefit of the doubt, once, to show me they can tank no matter which class they are. However, when I do hear comments from kinmates or others, it's usually guardian-biased. Healers I run with say they prefer to heal guards. Others say they trust the "traditional" method of tanking (heavy armour meatshields) over what to them is an unknown quantity: the warden. I figure the more people take a chance and see that wardens are not, in general, liabilities and/or a clear 2nd best, the less people will care about the class and just take "a tank."
guards def, not only do they have higher mits but most grdsvs wardens the grd can build and hold aggro much more effectively, altho i know this isnt the case all the time
As a very well geared Guardian I am not afraid to admit that Wardens are better at building and holding aggro. Guardians are reactive aggro builders whereas Wardens are proactive aggro builders.
That said, for the first 15-30 seconds of a battle a Guardian is definitely going to be better suited for handling aggro. Likewise if aggro flips or new ads spawn the Guardian has skills that can quickly grab the attention of those targets.
However, in terms of building and maintaining aggro the Warden is a far superior class than a Guardian for that specific role. Play with a really good Warden and you'll see the difference of a Warden vs Guardian aggro.
Each class has their own strengths. Guardians are reactive mitigation tanks; our duty is to go in there and grab aggro quickly, take and mitigate lots of damage, and get healed through it. A Warden is a proactive avoidance tank that has to be quick on the ball to assess the battlefield and build aggro on targets while maintaining avoidance and self-healing buffs to offset their lower mitigations.
As a well geared Guardian I would be proud to run with either class as a main tank.
That said, and as many other people have already posted, the average Warden may be worse than some of the worst Guardians. Guardians are easier to play though. On my Minstrel I've had to *try* to heal a Warden in ToO T1, and I say try because the Warden sucked so bad that within 2-3 hits the Warden would be dead. This coming from a Warden who had 16-18k morale. The Warden would post incoming devastates of over 12k damage, and as a healer I simply cannot heal through that. Not only can I not heal through that but it also means that the Warden becomes a heal sponge and I cannot heal anyone else for fear of losing one of our tanks. On the flipside, as a Guardian I have tank kited all three Acid Wargs at the same time and have never died doing so; I call out for the LM, Burglar and if present RK to apply debuffs on the Wargs that I am kiting. Usually though only two of the Wargs need to be kited while the raid dps'es down the third Warg quickly.
Last edited by thatabguy; Apr 24 2012 at 01:55 PM.
I would almost rather the second tank be a Ward. Our abilities compliment each other, rather than overlap. My favorite fun time is Foundry T2, my Ward kinnie MT's all the way to last fight. I pull out the 2 hander, put the parry response on him, and spam WR, SC, and VB (traited) and I almost feel like I am DPS'ing. He pulls the entire runs of trash mobs (trolls and all) and we just beat the cr@p out of 'em. Sometimes a squishy buys it, but they just release and run back. It really cuts the run time down as well. If you aint dyin, you aint tryin I say.
I prefer taking a Guard. Guards never talk much less about how much better they are now, all the buffs they receiving (because we don't get any!), how they're a walking fellowship, and how they can solo whatever they want. Both classes can tank, Wardens just can't shut up, and ultimately I hate people who just keep spewing into their mic.
Wardens are useful for holding my shield though ... oh, and coffee runs.
ArcticAurora 85 S/B Guardian // Pavello 85 OP Guardian // Canadian 85 Captain
... and an army of alts LotRO 'lifer & Player Councillor
After reading through this thread I think the overall assessment of most is that a well-played Warden, which is a rare thing unfortunately, can main tank as well as a well-played Guardian. However, a so-so played Warden or even worse a bad played Warden, will always, and I mean always be inferior to a Guardian, even a poorly played Guardian. My main is a Warden and I know what they are capable of but unfortunately too many people are just not willing or able to put into it what it takes to make them do what they can do.
After reading through this thread I think the overall assessment of most is that a well-played Warden, which is a rare thing unfortunately, can main tank as well as a well-played Guardian. However, a so-so played Warden or even worse a bad played Warden, will always, and I mean always be inferior to a Guardian, even a poorly played Guardian. My main is a Warden and I know what they are capable of but unfortunately too many people are just not willing or able to put into it what it takes to make them do what they can do.
I think the fact is wardens changed so radically so recently.
Normally 80-90% of forum posts are dribble. With so many changes so recently I'd expect 99% of people posting here don't really have much basis for their claims (yes including me).
I think the fact is wardens changed so radically so recently.
Normally 80-90% of forum posts are dribble. With so many changes so recently I'd expect 99% of people posting here don't really have much basis for their claims (yes including me).
top wardens may well be better than guardians now; I can handle that. Warden is a lot harder to play.
As long as guards can still tank just fine i'm not going to whine...
There are about 3 wardens on my server I would trust to tank, and 30 i wouldn't bring to grandStair.
Sorry but it's not true. It is another warden myth that a top warden is better than a Guardian. Take a look behind the scenes, wardens that are consider "Top" are usually running with raiding kins or "Top" raiders. These groups because of their level of play don't really need a "Top" tank. If you dig deeper you will see these group most likely learn the content by using a Guardian and then later switch to the lesser tanks such as wardens, champs, or LM's bears.
Guardians don't really shine until things are going bad or they run with less skilled or geared groups.
For the majority of players or groups in LOTRO, a Good Guardian (and I would even say a average Guardian) is always going to be your best choice for a tank.
played warden and still play it. played guardian stopped playing.
As warden you have not much of a choice to excel at what you are doing.
As guardian you just get in and press a few buttons (in my opinion). Your defense is almost full before you enter the fight so you just care about aggro. And as guard you care a lot about aggro compared to warden.
So for most random runs you may better go with a guard, since you dont know whose playing the char. (Sorry Guards but i could more easily teach an ape to play a guard, than teach him to play a warden)
Once you realised that there are some ppl out there who really know what they are doing, you don't care if it is a guard or a warden whos tanking the guys. You are just lucky that you are not the one (if not tank) that has the aggro.
Both classes are played different. Both classes have advantages in some situations.
Both can do it, if the rest of the group interacts prior to the situation.
RoI has thrown a shadow on the wardens. But we can and will continue to do everything a guardian does. Same as we can and will do things a guardian can't do.
I do know there are a LOT of ppl out there who don't think that well of a warden. Those ppl are the reason that a lot of us have stopped to search for rnd runs and instead run with ppl they know. (At least those wardens i know rarely run with rnd groups)
Yes there are ppl who can't play warden. As in every class.
Dunno about the others, but i got tired to prove that its not a fault to pick a warden for tanking.
It's not that i hate guards, i hate those ppl that think guardian as tank is the only answer.
To get back on Topic: its even. None of em is better because you will always find a situation which is easier with a guard as tank than with a warden, but also vice versa.
A better question would be: is your group flexible enough to exchange a guard for a warden?
Edit:
For sure that is just my opinion. You can agree, disagree or have sth else in mind. I don't really care.
Last edited by llRaidenll; Apr 27 2012 at 03:13 PM.
Reason: see edit
guards will be always more prefered than wardens even if the wardens will be able to solo the whole ToO.
Sorry but it's not true. It is another warden myth that a top warden is better than a Guardian. Take a look behind the scenes, wardens that are consider "Top" are usually running with raiding kins or "Top" raiders. These groups because of their level of play don't really need a "Top" tank. If you dig deeper you will see these group most likely learn the content by using a Guardian and then later switch to the lesser tanks such as wardens, champs, or LM's bears.
No.the only reason that the top wardens are in a good raiding kinship is because all top wardens are among the best players in the game.And a very good player always will be in top kins.
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good luck with your warden though, they're epic in 3- and 6-man content!
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Originally Posted by Fyrexiel
Also, lightning t2 needs just one tank
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Re: Warden vs Guardian 6.1
Wardens have less mits when guards and of course healing a warden can be harder sometimes if the warden cannot compensate that (duo lack of experience on end-game content + not the best gear) keeping defense up and some autoheals. The opposite also happen, wardens can be very easy to heal if they manage to keep their defense up and some autoheals. My warden have little more then 28% incoming healing rate with raid set armour buffs (3x600 ihr, one for each autoheal I use).
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