Thread: Anyone tested Element of Surprise in Shadow Stance?

I have two guys I know well who used DPS meters to test with and without the Element of Surprise trait while Shadow stanced and said there was no difference in DPS or frequency of crits. They haven't posted numbers, but has anyone else tested it out?

Because if it was indeed nerfed silently then I'll unslot it in favor of rallying howl.

It won't increase your hit strength, but it does increase your crit chance (I'm using it). In every engagement I have at least 25% crit hit with it usually being around 35%. This is due to the +20% crit chance from element of surprise.

Bottom line, it works and is well worth the slot.

everytime I duel with a warg he has >50% Critchance on his Sneak-Skill... (Bloody Maul, Sudden Maul and the third one (I always forget the name))

therefore I think that the traid works (but I don't think that it's correctly - the Burg trait with 5% Crit from stealth doesn't work for FA either)

Even if its working its only 20%

1 of 5 chance isnt a big deal

Burgs have 100% Devs

Champs have 100% Crits

spamming beastel claws criting almost every time is way better than a 1 time deal like a burg a champ dude do the math..

Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos

spamming beastel claws criting almost every time is way better than a 1 time deal like a burg a champ dude do the math..

Did the math

6 hits for 1K = 6K (Warg in Shadow spamming Claws)

1 hit for 6K= 6K (Champ ISB + Remorseless Strike)

The math tells me a 6K single strike > 6 1K strikes

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Did the math

6 hits for 1K = 6K (Warg in Shadow spamming Claws)

1 hit for 6K= 6K (Champ ISB + Remorseless Strike)

The math tells me a 6K single strike > 6 1K strikes

show me this 6k Crit from a Champ or the 6k Dev from a Burg in a Duel against an Audacity7-Warg...

furthermore wargs have duble the life of a Burg or a Champ with enough Mastery for a 6k Crit-Only Remorseless...

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Did the math

6 hits for 1K = 6K (Warg in Shadow spamming Claws)

1 hit for 6K= 6K (Champ ISB + Remorseless Strike)

The math tells me a 6K single strike > 6 1K strikes

Seeing as ISB is on a 2 min CD, I can get waaaaaaaay more than 6 claws off in 2 mins :P.

A skilled Champ using ISB can destroy any Warg

with 7 aud and flayer stance on...ive yet to see a champ auto crit me for over 2k...where exactly are you getting your numbers...

Originally Posted by mattg18

with 7 aud and flayer stance on...ive yet to see a champ auto crit me for over 2k...where exactly are you getting your numbers...

He makes them up as he goes along, duh!

Originally Posted by mattg18

with 7 aud and flayer stance on...ive yet to see a champ auto crit me for over 2k...where exactly are you getting your numbers...

We are debating Shadow stance not Flayer

Reading the thread title and all previous posts can be helpful before commenting

TBH, if you're fighting a champ in shadow.... either 1) you want a difficult challenge 2) you don't have flayer 3) you're crazy or 4) you're a masochist.

The highest I have hit on a flayer 7 audacity warg is a dev for ~3500. Crits are around 1900-2300 tops.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

The highest I have hit on a flayer 7 audacity warg is a dev for ~3500. Crits are around 1900-2300 tops.

And we can safely say a Shadow Warg would take around 40-50% more damage

= 1800-4000K Crits
= 6-7K Devs

Thank you for proving my point good Champion

I win the thread

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

And we can safely say a Shadow Warg would take around 40-50% more damage

= 1800-4000K Crits
= 6-7K Devs

Thank you for proving my point good Champion

Holy ####, 4000K!

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

TBH, if you're fighting a champ in shadow.... either 1) you want a difficult challenge 2) you don't have flayer 3) you're crazy or 4) you're a masochist.

Um... All of the above?

Originally Posted by Daec

Holy ####, 4000K!

Whoa... What is that, like 4 million or something ? :P

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

Um... All of the above?

I just noticed you named your Warg "Halfbloodnakh"

See you in court my friend

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

We are debating Shadow stance not Flayer

Reading the thread title and all previous posts can be helpful before commenting

I was well aware this was about shadow stance...but the point i was making can be summed up right here

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

TBH, if you're fighting a champ in shadow.... either 1) you want a difficult challenge 2) you don't have flayer 3) you're crazy or 4) you're a masochist.

absolutely no point to compare those numbers when you shouldnt be fighting them in shadow in the first place...flayer stance will always be the best stance when vsing any heavies with alot of mits...

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

And we can safely say a Shadow Warg would take around 40-50% more damage

= 1800-4000K Crits
= 6-7K Devs

Thank you for proving my point good Champion

and anyways...not even close to taking 40-50% more damage...make it 15-20% more damage...

but if you really want...i get hit by champs in flayer with auto crit for 1k-1.5k...in shadow i get hit around 2k-2.5k

again ill ask you...where are you getting these numbers

Originally Posted by mattg18

I was well aware this was about shadow stance...but the point i was making can be summed up right here



absolutely no point to compare those numbers when you shouldnt be fighting them in shadow in the first place...flayer stance will always be the best stance when vsing any heavies with alot of mits...



and anyways...not even close to taking 40-50% more damage...make it 15-20% more damage...

but if you really want...i get hit by champs in flayer with auto crit for 1k-1.5k...in shadow i get hit around 2k-2.5k

again ill ask you...where are you getting these numbers

Not every warg is r10+. Would a warg have to be r10+ with flayer to be allowed to compare to a champ for instance? That said, Shadow works excellent with morale mits and element of surprise . It's also quite useful against such as guardians as you can defeat their pledge by striking through it

Originally Posted by Dawnsinger

Not every warg is r10+. Would a warg have to be r10+ with flayer to be allowed to compare to a champ for instance? That said, Shadow works excellent with morale mits and element of surprise . It's also quite useful against such as guardians as you can defeat their pledge by striking through it

Thats what the store is for i guess...im just used to seeing plenty of sub r10 wargs with flayer i just assume every warg out there has flayer since how useful it is

Originally Posted by mattg18

I was well aware this was about shadow stance...but the point i was making can be summed up right here



absolutely no point to compare those numbers when you shouldnt be fighting them in shadow in the first place...flayer stance will always be the best stance when vsing any heavies with alot of mits...



and anyways...not even close to taking 40-50% more damage...make it 15-20% more damage...

but if you really want...i get hit by champs in flayer with auto crit for 1k-1.5k...in shadow i get hit around 2k-2.5k

again ill ask you...where are you getting these numbers

At almost Rank 12 I have battled 1000s of Champions

I saved all the data and entered the combat logs

Using this formula I can solve any mathematical problem

and also predict the end of the world

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

At almost Rank 12 I have battled 1000s of Champions

I saved all the data and entered the combat logs

Using this formula I can solve any mathematical problem

and also predict the end of the world

Pretty basic math dude - surely your google-skills are better than that? :S

Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos

spamming beastel claws criting almost every time is way better than a 1 time deal like a burg a champ dude do the math..

Then you consider that Freep AAs crit for what Creep attacks crit for. Wargs obviously don't out DPS Burgs or Champs.

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

show me this 6k Crit from a Champ or the 6k Dev from a Burg in a Duel against an Audacity7-Warg...

furthermore wargs have duble the life of a Burg or a Champ with enough Mastery for a 6k Crit-Only Remorseless...

Creeps having higher morale doesn't mean much. Putting aside the much larger Freep DPS to counter act this...Freeps have skills like Knives Out and Champ Bubbles/Sprint to make their lower morale less of a factor.

Originally Posted by mattg18

Thats what the store is for i guess...im just used to seeing plenty of sub r10 wargs with flayer i just assume every warg out there has flayer since how useful it is

Store shouldn't be advantage? I have a grand total of 81 tp and no way I'll buy points to be able to compete. Also heard you couldn't buy Flayer in the store (might have changed) and that the low ranks who'd bought SH were the ones who had it changed to flayer.

But I find that Shadow works ok against most freeps if used right. I can't beat any decent mini or rk unless they make some serious mistakes but I'm not sure Flayer would do much to change that.
Of course, I've never tried Flayer but Shadow isn't bad. Even better with a Shadow/Flayer duo though the 2 stances do excellent together if the wargs work as a team.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

Creeps having higher morale doesn't mean much. Putting aside the much larger Freep DPS to counter act this...Freeps have skills like Knives Out and Champ Bubbles/Sprint to make their lower morale less of a factor.

Creeps don't even have higher moral (at least by much) now days. Most champs on E run around with 9.5k - 10k unbuffed. My warg has 11.6k unbuffed. Guards can actually get more moral than wls and still hit as hard or a bit harder (only lose since a wl can heal). And yes, skills such as KO or w/e add more to survivability than a bit more moral does.

Most of my fights against good champs end up with 1 or both of us dead, the survivor only having 1k or so left, and the champ having done 75% - 100% more damage to me than I did to him. Even with having +50% attack duration the entire time and -10% damage half the time...

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

TBH, if you're fighting a champ in shadow.... either 1) you want a difficult challenge 2) you don't have flayer 3) you're crazy or 4) you're a masochist.

While I can't deny number 3, the effectiveness of shadow is very player-dependent. About half of the champs on E will simply melt against shadow.

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

show me this 6k Crit from a Champ or the 6k Dev from a Burg in a Duel against an Audacity7-Warg...

furthermore wargs have duble the life of a Burg or a Champ with enough Mastery for a 6k Crit-Only Remorseless...

Huh . . . Well, my marginally equipped burg has about 70% of my Warg's morale and tends to do about double the initial damage, then about 30% more sustained DPS. Plus, with legacies, my burg can HIPs more often. Longer cooldown, but Ready and Able (with legacies to cut the cooldown) make up for that. And then there's the Tricks . . . and the Gambles . . .

Not to mention that the Audacity 7 Warg spent more to get his Audacity than the Burg did to buy his Moors armor with its free +1 Audacity per piece.

Mmmm . . .

Originally Posted by MisterSmiles

While I can't deny number 3, the effectiveness of shadow is very player-dependent. About half of the champs on E will simply melt against shadow.

Sorry, should have made that "good champs", not just average champs :P.

This thread isn't about how to beat Champs. It is about whether anyone did an actual statistical test to see if Element of Surprise really does increase Claw and Maul chance to crit by 20% at all times while in Shadow Stance. If yes, then it is worth traiting, if no, then I'll choose rallying howl instead.

If you don't know that answer and just want to talk about other stuff go make your own thread.

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

It won't increase your hit strength, but it does increase your crit chance (I'm using it). In every engagement I have at least 25% crit hit with it usually being around 35%. This is due to the +20% crit chance from element of surprise.

Bottom line, it works and is well worth the slot.

Let me quote my very first post (second post in the thread) since it has your answer (questioning if you read the entire thread :S)...

Yes I saw your response. I wanted to see if anyone else would respond with any testing they have done. I don't know how to use add-ons and test meters and the like and have no inclination to learn.

So far I've got three people telling me "no it doesn't work" and two tell me "yes it does".

As Batman said " When in doubt test it yourself"

Originally Posted by .44

Yes I saw your response. I wanted to see if anyone else would respond with any testing they have done. I don't know how to use add-ons and test meters and the like and have no inclination to learn.

So far I've got three people telling me "no it doesn't work" and two tell me "yes it does".

It most certainly works.

And being disrespectful to people who actually have an 'inclination to learn' isn't really doing you any favours.

I tested Element of Surprise with Shadow and it does appear to improve dps. From the tests I ran my dps with or without Element had a variation of 100-200 dps, but I didn't run many tests so it's largely up to chance what the exact dps numbers were. Only ran 2 fights without Element of Surprise since honestly it's a LOT harder without it traited.

I hope this answers your question. If you try to run many more tests you'll no doubt get more precise numbers but my purpose for testing was merely to see if Element was worthwhile, not to find the accurate numbers.

this dude is a hugeee troll who is never happy

Originally Posted by Dawnsinger

I tested Element of Surprise with Shadow and it does appear to improve dps. From the tests I ran my dps with or without Element had a variation of 100-200 dps, but I didn't run many tests so it's largely up to chance what the exact dps numbers were. Only ran 2 fights without Element of Surprise since honestly it's a LOT harder without it traited.

I hope this answers your question. If you try to run many more tests you'll no doubt get more precise numbers but my purpose for testing was merely to see if Element was worthwhile, not to find the accurate numbers.

TBH, what you should be looking at when testing element of surprise is your crit rate, not your dps. Dps can vary based on many factors, but crit rate will always be pretty much the same. When using element of surprise in shadow, you should see (depending on your base crit chace) about a 30% - 35% crit rate. Without, it should be more like 10% - 15%.

Originally Posted by mattg18

I was well aware this was about shadow stance...but the point i was making can be summed up right here



absolutely no point to compare those numbers when you shouldnt be fighting them in shadow in the first place...flayer stance will always be the best stance when vsing any heavies with alot of mits...



and anyways...not even close to taking 40-50% more damage...make it 15-20% more damage...

but if you really want...i get hit by champs in flayer with auto crit for 1k-1.5k...in shadow i get hit around 2k-2.5k

again ill ask you...where are you getting these numbers

You are completely missing the point. We're discussing SHADOW stance and if you want to compare Champ crits vs a flayer warg with 7 audacity, you should also take into account that the highest crit you'll do in flayer vs a champ will be about 500 dmg. So okay, 3000 vs 500.

But still, it's irrelevant.

Read the posts before you post, please. Saves us a lot of time and confusion if ppl bothered to read what the thread was about and what ppl before had said.

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

TBH, what you should be looking at when testing element of surprise is your crit rate, not your dps. Dps can vary based on many factors, but crit rate will always be pretty much the same. When using element of surprise in shadow, you should see (depending on your base crit chace) about a 30% - 35% crit rate. Without, it should be more like 10% - 15%.

Higher crit rate = higher dps rate, so why not?