On my server Firefoot, we have a problem with some reavers and defilers using this skill to run away from the fight so the freeps dont get the renown. Also, another problem with dying rage is that the ork can be killed pretty quick by a tactical class or a melee/ranged skilled that cant be avoided. Thus giving the ork a low chance of killing his oppoent before he dies (this is more for the reaver then the defiler). So I think these two changes should occur:
1. Dying rage speed buff is is reduced from 200% run speed to 125% run speed.
2. The ork is unkillable until the 15s automatic defeat happens.
Weaver burrow does not save them from anything. The point is that freeps have a huge mobility advantage in combat versus creeps and if they are having issues with a reaver who pops dying rage they need to realize all the tools given to them including a group sprint + tar retreat. The amount of freeps suiciding off cliffs lately using their incombat sprints has turned my server into the suicide capital of LOTRO.
Also I have a cappy and I almost never get away with my sprint, +25% run speed doesn't rly do much when all slows are 25% or higher. There is last stand though and I only use that to try and get a kill. And I'm not aware of any cliffs near major battle sites that you can suicide off of.
with audacity, and mitigations, reaver dps is already low, not to mention defiler dps, though ranked defilers have pretty ridiculous heals. at 65 cap, reavers could take out multiple freeps before their dying rage was up. now, as OP stated, they just use it to run away. it's not nearly as useful now as it was when they actually did damage. most of the time it's used on Brandywine is as an escape skill as well. fortunately on my guard i have the 17 second sprint that i usually won't have wasted cause i know what tricks are up their sleeve. so i follow em and get credit for the kill anyway. but yeah, as the skill stands now it should just be called dying escape attempt or somethin :/
Creeps have 2 in combat sprint abilities, one of which auto kills them after 15 seconds.
Freeps have:
Champ: CBR (kills them and is immune to CC) 45 second sprint on 3 minute cooldown
Guardian: Sprint
Captain: Fellowship sprint
Burglars: 2+ HIPS
I do agree with the fact that creeps either need more saving moves or freeps need less. Idk, I was hoping that dying rage would be changed so that the reaver would die, but he would take someone down with him. So that both sides get renown and infamy. I think they need to make the skill either you have a great chance of killing your enemy, or a great chance of escaping. Which ever reavers prefer.
Weaver burrow does not save them from anything. The point is that freeps have a huge mobility advantage in combat versus creeps and if they are having issues with a reaver who pops dying rage they need to realize all the tools given to them including a group sprint + tar retreat. The amount of freeps suiciding off cliffs lately using their incombat sprints has turned my server into the suicide capital of LOTRO.
Okay, freeps jumping off cliffs doesn't happen often on our server, so it sounds like using dying rage is a way to get revenge for you guys. Thats the thing, I don't want disrespect to each side, which of course I know thats not gonna happen. I just thought this was one way to reduce disrespect, but you do make a good point. So I suggest to change more skills for freep and creepside in the future.
Creeps have 2 in combat sprint abilities, one of which auto kills them after 15 seconds.
Freeps have:
Champ: CBR (kills them and is immune to CC) 45 second sprint on 3 minute cooldown
Guardian: Sprint
Captain: Fellowship sprint
Burglars: 2+ HIPS
CBR is the most useless skill ingame currently. Why anyone chose to increase the self dot to such ridiculous lvls while still keeping the substantial morale loss for just engaging the skill is outside my level of understanding. Nothing else was changed, it's simply a death stance now. With max audacity CC isn't that big of a deal so even the original version is pointless.
I thought that dying rage already prevented death until the 15 second auto-death... if it doesn't then I would think that that isn't WAI.
And you have no idea how long I've been waiting for a nerf dying rage thread :P
Dying rage may last long on your server, but all its take is some tactical class using burst dps, or a melee class like the champ using ferious strikes, and the reaver dies in less then 5s. Also, i'm not trying to nerf it, just want changes to make it either a real fighting skill or if you guys prefer, an escape skill that doesnt kill the reaver on defeat.
I have been trying to get dying rage changed for a long time now myself. It can be very frustrating to pop dying rage only to get hit by a huge EC or a hunter and die before you even get a chance for the skill to take effect, yet it is on CD now and you are dead. Should be changed to unbeatable for the 15 secs if you are going to die after. As it is right now Reaver DPS is poo, and its even worse with audacity now, a hunter auto melee attack hits me harder than my auto melee attack hits the hunter, that shouldn't happen. Reavers and defilers both need some work.
On my server Firefoot, we have a problem with some reavers and defilers using this skill to run away from the fight so the freeps dont get the renown. Also, another problem with dying rage is that the ork can be killed pretty quick by a tactical class or a melee/ranged skilled that cant be avoided. Thus giving the ork a low chance of killing his oppoent before he dies (this is more for the reaver then the defiler). So I think these two changes should occur:
1. Dying rage speed buff is is reduced from 200% run speed to 125% run speed.
2. The ork is unkillable until the 15s automatic defeat happens.
on my server we have a problem with some Guards and Champions......
If anything DR needs a buff and should kick in much ealier than it does. These days freeps pump out so much damage that typically the creep hits DR and then is one shotted by the next freep skill.
*edit* and yeppers, I have DR traited on my defiler for the express purpose of denying certain peoples anything. If i am roaming solo looking for 1v1s and I get steamrolled I will be popping DR, just as a guard/champ will hit sprint, a burg/warg will hips, a mini will flop, a hunter might DF, a spider burrow and a WL/RK/LM/BA will bend over and grab their ankles.
Last edited by Fraegster; Apr 18 2012 at 06:01 PM.
Xnoy - rank something or other Warg, and Wyver - rank mango fiesta delight Defiler
As it is right now Reaver DPS is poo, and its even worse with audacity now, a hunter auto melee attack hits me harder than my auto melee attack hits the hunter, that shouldn't happen.
on my server we have a problem with some Guards and Champions......
If anything DR needs a buff and should kick in much ealier than it does. These days freeps pump out so much damage that typically the creep hits DR and then is one shotted by the next freep skill.
*edit* and yeppers, I have DR traited on my defiler for the express purpose of denying certain peoples anything. If i am roaming solo looking for 1v1s and I get steamrolled I will be popping DR, just as a guard/champ will hit sprint, a burg/warg will hips, a mini will flop, a hunter might DF, a spider burrow and a WL/RK/LM/BA will bend over and grab their ankles.
They need to make dying rage for reavers only, defilers deserve a diffrent CD that would actually help them in battle.
I don't know what it would require to implement this but the fix for Dying Rage seems pretty easy to me.
Firstly, as soon as you click it you are "dead", meaning wherever you are, the points go to the people who did damage to you. I think this change is awesome overall, because it encourages more people to fight to the death in all situations. I can't tell you how many times I fight to the death, retreat, and 10 seconds after walking down from the rez, see a skull on my screen and hear the enemy defeat sound. Frustrating!
That said, Dying Rage needs to be buffed in several ways: lowered cooldown, no morale requirement, immediate upon selection (like charge). This will make MOST everyone happy. Why? The reaver who uses it actually gets a use out of it, and the freep(s) that the reaver is engaging have a strong incentive to fight to the death.
Reavers can't just click the skill and die far away, robbing you of points, but the skill remains a potent offensive tool.
I don't know what it would require to implement this but the fix for Dying Rage seems pretty easy to me.
Firstly, as soon as you click it you are "dead", meaning wherever you are, the points go to the people who did damage to you. I think this change is awesome overall, because it encourages more people to fight to the death in all situations. I can't tell you how many times I fight to the death, retreat, and 10 seconds after walking down from the rez, see a skull on my screen and hear the enemy defeat sound. Frustrating!
That said, Dying Rage needs to be buffed in several ways: lowered cooldown, no morale requirement, immediate upon selection (like charge). This will make MOST everyone happy. Why? The reaver who uses it actually gets a use out of it, and the freep(s) that the reaver is engaging have a strong incentive to fight to the death.
Reavers can't just click the skill and die far away, robbing you of points, but the skill remains a potent offensive tool.
Pretty much this ^. I much prefer the approach of making the skill more potent and viable rather than just making the reaver undefeatable for the period; as the latter reeks of the gimmicky mechanics which Turbine consistently attaches to cooldowns thus disproportionately placing the result of combat in the hands of whoever blows the most timers. This obviously wouldn't be the worst example, but lets start with baby steps, yeah?
Anyone who said the OP's reasoning was referring to nerfing DR or avoiding a proliferation of escape skills on creepside, is obviously ignorant. The skill in its current form fails for its intended purpose; which is taking someone down with you, and is great for its unintended purpose of griefing people by denying renown/KBs (read: not an escape skill like aforementioned ignorantes seem to insist on).
Last edited by MaroonDragoon; Apr 18 2012 at 08:43 PM.
So....what? It's all good for a Champion to use Sprint to run away from a battle but if an Orc Denying Rages, it needs to be changed? Are you serious? There are many classes that have escape skills like this. Why do you want to deny 2 classes this ability? Let's take Sprint and Disappear from Wargs, also. That way, Only freeps will be able to deny Infamies. All these classes have skills like this that can be used offensively or defensively. Majority of the people will skills like this available to them, use them to run away. Why should Orcs be denied this ability?
Last edited by deeman25845601; Apr 18 2012 at 09:31 PM.
There are many more creative things that could be done with the skill, but a 15s last-stand with lower damage bonus/speed and guaranteed death at the end would be fine. Or just a 15s LS with all other buffs removed.
So....what? It's all good for a Champion to use Sprint to run away from a battle but if an Orc Denying Rages, it needs to be changed? Are you serious? There are many classes that have escape skills like this. Why do you want to deny 2 classes this ability? Let's take Sprint and Disappear from Wargs, also. That way, Only freeps will be able to deny Infamies. All these classes have skills like this that can be used offensively or defensively. Majority of the people will skills like this available to them, use them to run away. Why should Orcs be denied this ability?
Do I have to repeat myself? I would prefer dying rage to either take on the roll to either stay in the fight longer where the reaver has a great chance to take his enemy down or if creeps prefer, make the skill into a real escape move that gives him a chance to escape and not die. But of course I would prefer the stay and fighting so there could be infamy/renown on both sides. Saving moves is a diffrent issue. I will agree with you that either creeps need more saving moves or freeps need less, but thats not what im talking about here. The skill doesn't need to have somewhat of a chance to escape or kill your enemy, it needs to either have a great chance to kill your enemy or if creeps prefer, have a great chance to escape.
I say less anti pvp skills for everyone Creeps Freeps alike. If you die in PvP WAI.
Give me an arena and creeps/freeps can have all the anti PvP skills you want. Maybe it will get bad enough that no one dies, ever. I go to the moors to PvP not run away from it or engage in it only when it's assured beyond need of skill.
I think Dying Rage should just make them unkillable, set runspeed to 100%, immunity to CC, and then instead of definitive death, more like 5k damage to the Reaver, so it has a chance of living (but this shouldnt mitigated by WL bubble) . Also, it should make ALL inductions instant cast, making it useful for defilers.
Last edited by Spacmanbobr; Apr 19 2012 at 06:15 PM.
They need to make dying rage for reavers only, defilers deserve a diffrent CD that would actually help them in battle.
+1 rep for you sir, yeah i only have it traited for the hell of it... and truth be told it is a temptation I would be better off without (i have definately hit DR, and then thought that was pretty lame of me to do).. but yeah I agree with you.
Xnoy - rank something or other Warg, and Wyver - rank mango fiesta delight Defiler
I say less anti pvp skills for everyone Creeps Freeps alike. If you die in PvP WAI.
Give me an arena and creeps/freeps can have all the anti PvP skills you want. Maybe it will get bad enough that no one dies, ever. I go to the moors to PvP not run away from it or engage in it only when it's assured beyond need of skill.
And what creep do you play? Or is this so you can raise your freep? Just curious if you have tried the dark side.
And what creep do you play? Or is this so you can raise your freep? Just curious if you have tried the dark side.
I have not tried the darkside. I advocated the same change for both sides so I don't see how this would favor raising my freep, or favor one side over the other in any way.
One interesting way to change to the mechanics of dying rage would be:
-eliminate the run speed boost (how annoying is it to try to fight somewhere like wtab with DR up? Half the time I fall off the bridge)
-retain the CC/slow immunity
-DR reduces all incoming damage by ~75%, rather than the melee/ranged defense stuff that is there now.
-Possibly get rid of the outgoing damage boost or reduce to 25%.
-Now the key change: Get rid of the 15 second timer. Instead of the timer running out and "oops, you're dead", the buff is indefinite as long as the reaver is able to strike a target with a melee attack every 5 seconds. If the reaver cannot get off an attack in this time period, then he dies from exhaustion.
This would encourage the reaver to stay in combat and fight to the death. It also would help in a RvR situation where right now DR is pretty much useless.
Freeps: r8 Mini
Creeps: r10 Reaver, r8 WL, r8 Defiler, r8 Warg, r7 Spider, r6 BA
One interesting way to change to the mechanics of dying rage would be:
-eliminate the run speed boost (how annoying is it to try to fight somewhere like wtab with DR up? Half the time I fall off the bridge)
-retain the CC/slow immunity
-DR reduces all incoming damage by ~75%, rather than the melee/ranged defense stuff that is there now.
-Possibly get rid of the outgoing damage boost or reduce to 25%.
-Now the key change: Get rid of the 15 second timer. Instead of the timer running out and "oops, you're dead", the buff is indefinite as long as the reaver is able to strike a target with a melee attack every 5 seconds. If the reaver cannot get off an attack in this time period, then he dies from exhaustion.
This would encourage the reaver to stay in combat and fight to the death. It also would help in a RvR situation where right now DR is pretty much useless.
Way too potent. Indefinte -75% damage reduction plus cc/slow immunity all while doing more damage/running faster (depending on whether the buffs were removed).
Good ideas in part (the damage reduction in place of current bpe/resist buff I'm all for) but all that combined would make reavers ridiculous in organised groups.
Way too potent. Indefinte -75% damage reduction plus cc/slow immunity all while doing more damage/running faster (depending on whether the buffs were removed).
Good ideas in part (the damage reduction in place of current bpe/resist buff I'm all for) but all that combined would make reavers ridiculous in organised groups.
Beta is for play testing these numbers. If 75% incoming damage reduction is too much then make it 50%. The skill is on a 15 min cooldown and is gated by 25% health. If a raid focus fires a DR reaver, they can still kill it relatively quickly. I think incoming healing would also need to be reduced by 100% to ensure you can't have an invincible reaver fighting against a big freep raid.
The main point is that the 15 second instant-death effect is stupid. What other class has a 15 min cd skill that guarantees your own death but not the death of anyone else? That mechanic needs to change, regardless of the other buffs. I think the idea of going into a "dying rage" and becoming tougher while you kill everything around you, then collapsing when everything is dead fits the flavor of the skill and class.
Freeps: r8 Mini
Creeps: r10 Reaver, r8 WL, r8 Defiler, r8 Warg, r7 Spider, r6 BA
Beta is for play testing these numbers. If 75% incoming damage reduction is too much then make it 50%. The skill is on a 15 min cooldown and is gated by 25% health. If a raid focus fires a DR reaver, they can still kill it relatively quickly. I think incoming healing would also need to be reduced by 100% to ensure you can't have an invincible reaver fighting against a big freep raid.
The main point is that the 15 second instant-death effect is stupid. What other class has a 15 min cd skill that guarantees your own death but not the death of anyone else? That mechanic needs to change, regardless of the other buffs. I think the idea of going into a "dying rage" and becoming tougher while you kill everything around you, then collapsing when everything is dead fits the flavor of the skill and class.
The point is the skill is a skill like no other. It defines the role of the reaver. I like the skill the way it is. It just needs to be way better, but it should definitely give you an auto death. The whole point of it giving you an auto death after 15 seconds is that it's a last resort skill, using the last of your energy. You use it if you're sure you are going to die anyway. The defensive buffs need to be much better, but the auto death after 15 seconds should stay IMO. Also I don't care what anyone says, the 200% speed needs to stay. It doesn't matter if a creep can use the skill to run away, it's rarely successful for that, anyway. The Orc using the skill needs the 200% speed to be able to catch up to whatever they want to kill, snare immunity alone wouldn't cut it.
sadly that is the only useful thing you can do with it at the moment, if that.
like it was said earlier it should stay the same with more defensive buffs so you don't die 0.1 secs after clicking it and actually make it possible to kill 1-2 freeps before dying, which was quite possible back in the day you could easily tear through 2 freeps in that period of time and that is in my opinion the whole point of the skill and ultimately what the reaver is all about.
ofc upgrading this skill is worthless if reaver doesn't get some proper needed buffs.
*sigh* all these people talking about dying rage being useless makes me laugh a little. I use dying rage all the time and to great effect, I quite often get at least one kill if not two or three sometimes. Yes the skill is very situational, but thats what seperates the good players from the not so good players, knowing when and how to use the skill, if you ask me there is only one change needed for dying rage, instead of parry buff, just make it work like last stand and buff the damage to +75% instead of 50% to pretty much gurantee a kill ( for those of you who would QQ about that consider the fact that the moment the reaver hits that skill said freep/freeps get guranteed renown), then when the 15 secs is up boom you die like you already do.
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