Thread: The LM Just isn't Useful Anymore!

I enjoy playing my LM, everyone in the groups (including myself) feel that it's useful, and have no problems finding a group for it. Is there really anything else that matters?

well the lore master is useless in ettens :P at last a unstun pots is better :P don't take half renow !!

The guy who made this thread is as funny as thoughs who are falling for his trolling tactics


Though if im wrong and he really thinks that about a Lm then he needs to either learn his classes or find a new game that is easy to understand



P.S. im leaning torwards another game for him

lol

456789

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

well the lore master is useless in ettens :P at last a unstun pots is better :P don't take half renow !!

If you're an epic fail LM then they are useless. Pro LMs are amazing. Spiders have +30% attack/induction duration debuff (wound). Wargs have +25% induction debuff (disease). That allows minis/RKs to keep healing like a beast keeping those off. Plus curing flies is nice cuz they are a pretty massive drain on groups now. LMs can cure silences -- something RKs and minstrels absolutely hate. They have SoP:R which prevents knockdowns, mezzes, stuns and allows people being focused to keep kiting or healers to keep healing cuz they won't be CC'd. On top of all that they have epic debuffing. An LM is what determines whether my group of 4 can handle 6 creeps or 12 creeps.

I realize that this is a troll thread but I can't help but feel we are the worst class for most the content in the game. The content that we are needed in I feel like we are a necessary evil and once we do our cc/debuff we become a strain on the raid not pulling out weight. The problem is that content is made so that a debuffing class is not completely necessary. If debuffing was necessary every time you miss or resist a debuff it would cause a wipe. We do not debuff hard enough and mobs don't hit hard enough for us to be necessary. As a result burgs can largely do our role and add more dps than us. I only see us being more useless in the future as more mobs gain cc immunity and content is made more for the tank/dps/heal triad and everything really just comes down to dps races.

I feel that our class as a whole needs to be updated. We could use a new type of debuff or possibly a new type of game mechanic that makes LMs more needed (like corruptions) I also think content needs to be designed were mass debuffing and crowd control are more important. But I do not see this happening, instead I see more dps races and strait forward tank aand spank fights in the future.

Ancient Craft + Crit buff thingy(5 Draigoch?) + Shatter-Arms + Tar = pretty neato.

Im not a LM myself, got a lvl 32 one which im about to start leveling soon.
From what Ive seen a LM is perhaps the most handy class in the whole game. Can share power, can heal, can debuff, daze, you name it. They can give you something better than the r15 brand could ever dream off. Their single target may not be that high, but their AOE makes up for that + additional dots... LMs are awesome + the fluffy and cute pets, /pat.

I agree that with not that no body except few bad player have power issue, LM support utility have faded.
Smae can be said for the Banner of Victory... who would need it, now?

Turbine made all class to much self sufficient and if they keep that way it just gonna be a kid_candy dps contest game like wow have become; I fear that and would be really disappointed cause I really enjoyed that game that game.

as for the debuff, well some fight mobs just reapply the debuff every 3 seconds so the point of removing it just fall off, otherwise the player just end up decursing on full time and do nothing else, I liked the Disease of GB that caused such a radical stats drop for the 20 lvl bracket that It was useful to be removed and significant, without making it vital.

Originally Posted by Marphlets

I'll tell you what's useless - having this tired old debate. . .again.

agreed. as already stated, obvious troll is obvious and the reaction he got from this thread is exactly what he was looking for.

i agree with both arkenhelm's and psychobabble's comments completely. if someone says what the troll has said about LM, they just don't understand the dynamics or mechanics of the class. i rolled an LM just for ####es and giggles, but once i decided to level him, i learned the class and what it offers. in certain aspects, i'm still learning some of the finer nuances, but i've also never been denied joining fellowships simply because i'm an LM.

having a 75 champ, a 75 hunter, and a soon-to-be 75 captain, i can say that i really enjoy playing my LM just as much as i enjoy playing the other classes.

Here are some related threads. I didn't go through every class, but it was still fun. Cue multiple violins.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...e-of-Guardians

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-you-are-happy

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Shunned-Hunter

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...s-Guardian-6.1

This week: LMs aren't useful. Next week: Oxygen not required to breathe.

We always take 2 LMs with us to T2 Orthanc. I'd feel naked trying to do Acid wing without them. When CC is not required one specs to DPS and they parse only slightly under our DPS classes but also bring many added benefits with their arsenal.

Originally Posted by spockerized

What is always the first class to die... The LM.

I'm always the last one to die... so, no...

Our kin runs ToO tier 2 every week and we clear challenge on lighting/acid and shadow I can go dps or full AM and no one not the tanks or healers notice the difference to the damage being done to the group. I will admit though I go AM or DPS depending on the group make up, I am also there to give power and on fights like acid to aoe nuke the adds as that is far more benefit to the group with my burst dps than debuffing the boss! I don't like this road that the LM has gone down, if I wanted a dps class of this nature I would have rolled a RK. But it is what it is and I will stubbornly keep debuffing away, who knows one day I might need it again

However try and clear the trash in ToO without a LM at least there a LM can shine in there normal role of CC masters, Gotheron imo was the best fight for a LM how I wish that ToO had a boss like that

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

If you're an epic fail LM then they are useless. Pro LMs are amazing.

Try to kill a mini and a champ :P and a mini and a lore master !! Who survive ? the debuffing group with a fail dps or the melee grop with more armor and damage and bubble ?

Debuff are good but not enout for a proper battle, only 30 sec while you are dps traited and ... yes you can help with stun but you don't decrease incoming healing you don't increase really the damage ... all your skill have a lot of induction/animation ... and the stun atm is really short while the enemy have 2 defiler ...

A lore master can kill a skilled defiler ? Tbh my power go out and defiler still be full
Same for a good warg ... how many resist you will see and interrupt ???

well at last ... I think with kite only the poor reaver can die atm :P

If you wanna talk about rank 0 sure ... stiky for all and i can kill 2 in the same time but not a good creep

LMs are far from useless, but it's true that the CC aspect has been diminished by time. LM got good dps, and debuffs help when you do big pulls, or during hard hitting bosses. Stun immunity and wound cure are very needed, and power share is good to have as backup, though it's not much needed outside raids anymore.

The days of SoA are long gone, but we're still very good and wanted in groups. Take another champ for aoe instead of lm for instance? you miss all the debuffs, wound cure, SI etc. and don't gain THAT much more dps. Who knows if the run would be even slower, as SI on tank, aoe stuns and 8+ target firelore are pretty nice when doing big pulls.

So, there's 4 pages of arguing with a guy that has a troll face as their profile picture...*facepalm*

I just realized who made this thread..trololol.

Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil

So, there's 4 pages of arguing with a guy that has a troll face as their profile picture...*facepalm*

Is that what those pictures are? Every time I see them, I'd think it is a wrinkly LOL Bill Cosby or Louie Armstrong picture. I still don't see it, but eh, good to know. Will attempt to avoid feeding them from now on.

Just get rid of induction setback from damage on all induction classes and I'll be happy. Or at least drastically reduce the setbacks. Also brands and in combat brands are just stupid. They make nearly all LM skills useless. Whereas against most dps classes it hardly affects anything at all. Especially ones with in combat sprints. Why have an item that gives you godmode status over a select few classes? That's BS turbine.

I talked with Ivythorn about this the other day. It'd be neat if the devs gave Loremasters their good -lore debuffs by default. That way, an LM could trait red AND still accomplish one of their primary support functions with the debuffs, making them more relevant to ToO DPS-race farm runs. Look at Captains: we bring our buffs no matter what we're traited. If the situation calls for me dropping some blue traits for more red traits, I got nothing holding me back.

I don't know where that leaves yellow line.

Originally Posted by Barillas

I just realized who made this thread..trololol.

Haha, yes, had me laughing when I first saw this thread.

Sadly Agree

esp. for Tank/Heal/DPS 3 mans

LOL! There are some bosses which are impossible without an Lm. For example Bukot Tier t2, saruman could become a big problem too.....and a lot of others.

Bit it´s right that theLm was more important in other raids in the past.
But you can´t say that the Lm is useless

The lore master if played correctly is never the first to die and can deal some quite nice ranged and melee damage, in fact our staff strike has the highest melee damage in the game at low levels. Our debuffs and stuns are far more powerfully than a burg's plus we have more of a selection and can stun more then one mob at a timeif I remember correctly, we can also share our power with the rest of the group and regenerate our own by sapping the enemys in a drawn out fight everyone tends to go low on power the first and foremost of these is the minstrel ( I should know I have a level 32 minstrel myself) and in a drawn out fight it's a bad thing to lose you're healer. So all in all the lore master is still a pretty usefull and powerfully class.

Originally Posted by anteku

I think the others have made good points.

Regarding the quoted text, this isn't true from my experience. In our group, the LM is usually among the last 3 people to die. Perhaps your LMs would benefit from new positioning, stacking morale, and retraiting some virtues. In fact, there are a few parts where we actually do a little LM-tanking (e.g. the LM catches the boulders in FnF T2). I don't want to oversell this last point, but do want to note out that we can be fairly sturdy.

Well said, we might not do massive damage when traited for debuffs but this means we aren't high on the aggro list either so we don't get killed first when something goes wrong. I know I'm often one of the last to die and I can only assume the OPs squishy dying LMs are standing in stupid places.

Ha, I gotta say it.
When I started my LM this was my thought exactly.
I got tired of random people asking me to tank for them (or worse, random invites) so I started a new toon that no one would want.

I agree, that tanks are in high demand, but to state, that no one searches for an lm is simply wrong. I had to decline 3 ims invitations to rof T2 in about 1 hour, while playing my lm to help some kinmates.

My kin doesn't have too many Loremasters in it, and I can tell that they're eager for Lieselotte (my LM) to hit 75 so that I can take our lead LM's place and free him up to use his other characters more in endgame content.

I'm confused? If debuffs aren't really good.

Originally Posted by Alydariel

Our kin runs ToO tier 2 every week and we clear challenge on lighting/acid and shadow I can go dps or full AM and no one not the tanks or healers notice the difference to the damage being done to the group.

What do Lm's do again... oh power that's right.

Originally Posted by Endurion_Eldar

I'm always the last one to die... so, no...

Even after the healers... so what are you doing when your group is wiping into oblivion?

Originally Posted by Brunhilder

LOL! There are some bosses which are impossible without an Lm. For example Bukot Tier t2, saruman could become a big problem too.....and a lot of others.

Dang lots of bosses in this game can't wait to find out :P


I think the OP's on to something.

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

Debuff are good but not enout for a proper battle, only 30 sec while you are dps traited and ... yes you can help with stun but you don't decrease incoming healing you don't increase really the damage ... all your skill have a lot of induction/animation ... and the stun atm is really short while the enemy have 2 defiler ...

A lore master can kill a skilled defiler ? Tbh my power go out and defiler still be full
Same for a good warg ... how many resist you will see and interrupt ???

well at last ... I think with kite only the poor reaver can die atm :P

If you wanna talk about rank 0 sure ... stiky for all and i can kill 2 in the same time but not a good creep

Not everything involves 1vs1 farmfests like on certain servers. In groups 4+ an AM debuffing LM is the most awesomest class to bring. Fire-lore = instant. Wind-lore = instant. SoP:C = instant. Frost-lore = instant. Those 4 skills alone are tremendous debuffs with no inductions. Then of course there is always SoP:R to prevent stuns/mezzes/knockdowns and to cure silences on minis/captains/RKs. Then group cure for wounds/diseases. Having permanent tar down is beneficial. Being able to debuff 8+ targets instead of 3 is a game-changer.

Debuffing LMs are able to turn the dps of 18 creeps into the dps of like 8 creeps. That is how potent their debuffs/skills are when used to the full effect. Of course a scrub LM would turn down that ability in group/raid environment. If you think you're bringing significant dps to the raid on LM, roll a hunter or champ.

Originally Posted by spockerized

actual damage done by a Lm is laughable

You are talking about your LM right?

Regards
CA

Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod

You are talking about your LM right?

Regards
CA

When traited for support he's absolutely right. DPS-traited our damage isn't too shabby, but an LM doing that kind of damage is pretty useless for any of the LM's other roles and is wasting a slot a good damage dealer could use.

I find loads of people asking for LMs, also i think we bring many things to the table in groups.

We can do a bit of heal (i forgot how many times ive saved a healers butt with a simple beacon of hope because they forget to heal themselves).

We debuff to hell and back...we increase miss chance, decrease evade, increase crit, decrease armour, decrease ranged dmg, decrease attacks, increase dmg output, decrease tactical dmg. Not to mention we give power and i can tell you even now, i have to give tons of power to people; so whoever said giving power is not needed any more are either with people who slack, or just don't utilize the benefits of a good power topper

Oh and anti stun...still one of the most useful buffs in the game imo. (Certain mobs stun the tank, when that happens aggro is lost..who gets the brunt of the mobs angry rage then? usually the healer Lms can counter that with one simple flick of a wrist, who else can do that?)

Damage output, i have heard so many different stories on this, i personally have geared up towards dmg dealing as i duo/3 man things in-game and i can blast out a ton of damage. We are not exactly on the top of the list for single target dmg but aoe is pretty huge from what i have seen/done/witnessed.

On the dying front i never die first, a good lm is also careful and knows when to use wisdom, a pot, inner flame, spirit pet heals etc etc. (also if the tank your with is good enough a shield wall will go a long way) ;-p

It is all down to how well the lm plays and how well people play around the lm, if you don't know the full potential of an lm then i guess you wont get the most out of one.

Definitely not useless though

Just in case anyone was still interested in this silliness, these screenies pretty much sum it up:







They're the first 2 saruman T2 kills and the first two F&F T2 challenge kills and based on time to kill you'd have to say these are possibly the hardest bosses that Turbine's ever released. Guess what class is represented in every group?

This was exactly the point some of us were making earlier - when you're doing content that's actually HARD (ie not just faceroll farming stuff), LMs are important.

I think LM's are really useful. I was greatly criticized for getting a LM by my friends and now they are all starting them seeing as how cool they are. One great thing about them is their skills for helping individuals. When your on a quest to keep someone alive and kill the raiders or whatever you can keep them with tons of health. I was on a skirm the other day with Wardens, Guardians and a Captian and i was supplying everyone with power to do their damage and without LM's they would run out of it
Learn a class and stop criticizing it when you dont need to.

Didm a full ToO run last weekend but one with only one LM. That was a lot tougher than with 2, especially Fire and Frost and Saruman where one LM runs out of +debuff targets fatsre than he runs out of targets!

Nonsense. Stun dots are always useful in instances where CC is not! Power is always welcome too! I can think of endless things we can do that have nothing to do with CC. Debuffs? ETC

Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ

Just in case anyone was still interested in this silliness, these screenies pretty much sum it up:

They're the first 2 saruman T2 kills and the first two F&F T2 challenge kills and based on time to kill you'd have to say these are possibly the hardest bosses that Turbine's ever released. Guess what class is represented in every group?

multiple Mini's/guards/burgs...
Yah yah we know they are OP... This thread is on Lm's.

I wanted to chime in with a few numbers and observations on this troll thread. I hope this helps illustrate to aspiring LM's what you can bring to a raid.

When I bring my Lore-master into a difficult raid (Tower of Orthanc being the latest) I set myself up in the Ancient Master line and seldom dps as it is not necessary. My job instead is to reduce the incoming damage on either the tanks and/or the champs off tanking the RAT, and keep additional mobs locked down that would otherwise overwhelm the tanks and healers. In add pulls I almost never dps outside of gust of wind, but that is only because I want the miss chance debuff.

Assuming you are traited properly, then Frost-lore/Fire-lore plus Sign of Power See All Ends can significantly reduce the ability of a boss to knock out the tank. That combination adds -30% melee damage, -25% tactical damage, +50% induction time, -2400 critical chance (boss crits can produce overwhelming damage, especially an AoE attack on the group--F&F? Saruman? Lightning?). If you toss in wind lore and sign of power command, you've added +30% attack duration, reduced the b/p/e of the target (this makes your dps more effective), and added -60% ranged damage. If you toss in ancient craft you've just lowered his armor value by 2025. Throw in a gust of wind and you have an additional +7% miss chance.

In total a lore master can add +17% miss chance, +30% attack duration, -30% melee damage, -25% tactical damage, +50% induction, -2400 crit chance, and a reduction in b/p/e (I can't recall the numbers).

Let's put this in perspective. Let's pretend the tank is kiting the Saruman clones in phase 5. The LM has to put Wind-lore, gust of wind, sign of power see all ends and frost lore on the central Saruman. How much does that lower the damage of the central Saruman on phases 3-5? -25% damage is a lot of damage. -2400 crit chance reduces spike damage that the healers have to work in overdrive to heal. I am not sure if the central Saruman is affected by -60% ranged damage, but the +30% attack duration, +50% induction and +10% miss chance should reduce the damage by at least a quarter.

Next, the LM tosses fire-lore, gust of wind and sign of power command on the clones. If he can debuff 8 of the Sarumans while kiting (trait deep lore of course), he has just reduced their damage by:

+20% attack duration, +17% miss chance, -30% melee damage.

What does that add up to? -30% melee means 8 Saruman are dealing the effective damage of 5.6. With +13% miss chance you are reducing the damage by roughly 8*.83*.7 = 4.65 Sarumans and the +20% duration means they are taking 20% as much time to attack, effectively reducing the damage further to about 4 Sarumans. My math may be a bit off, but it suffices to show that if the LM knows what he is doing, he can effectively reduce kiting 8 Sarumans to 4.

Last weekend we had a raid with 1 LM. Whenever his frost-lore missed the central Saruman, multiple people in the raid would complain, rather loudly, at the increased damage. A well played Lore-master is invaluable in a raid. A poorly played lore-master is useless at best, a liability at worst.

As a bonus, you can also drain power and restore the raid's dps and heals. If you are properly set up, and use Call to Valor wisely, a single lore-master should be able to keep a well geared and played raid filled with power.

[EDIT] And if you are really good, in a difficult pull, with enough finesse and the correct book legacies, you can use call to valor to have two mobs perma mezzed within a few seconds of a fight, and keep a third mob held in position with herb lore for 1 minute (call to valor required) and possibly even longer if you can use cracked earth correctly.

-Syn

Originally Posted by illdowhatittakes

multiple Mini's/guards/burgs...
Yah yah we know they are OP... This thread is on Lm's.

uhh yeah, and every group of those groups have one LM in it. That's all I'm saying and it completely refutes the point the OP was making (that LMs are unnecessary).

I'm not trying to make an argument that stacking 2+ LMs is a good idea - it's not, no one could seriously argue that - but my point has always been that when a group is facing a challenge that's on the edge of their progression then LM is an extremely valuable class. Ie. we're useful when it matters.

Also most of the people replying to this thread are missing the main point. The OP and others aren't ignorant about the mechanics of the class or what effects our debuffs and skills have, it was an argument about whether all that stuff is actually needed or not. And I agree with the OP that for groups facerolling stuff that's easy for them, LMs aren't strictly necessary (no class is) and I actually think more LMs should recognise this and realise that when stuff's easy, you should play as a (sub-par) DPS class and not fiddle around doing fancy but unnecessary stuff. However, we certainly make hard content easier and sometimes make otherwise impossible (for that group) content possible. Which is all you can ask from a class.