Let's look at this from the most logical point. A squishy class that really only makes the job of a healer harder when faced with burst damage. The actual damage done by a Lm is laughable and the pets hit for what 64? What is always the first class to die... The LM. Look at these points.
1. The Bosses that anyone does in ToO are zerg bosses no need for CC.
2. Because how short the bosses are the debuffs actually help mitigate what damage.
3. Since most of the damage that happens in these fights is melee seems logical to stack burgs.. More debuffs+outgoing damage.
4. At this point everyone should have enough ICPR or class skills to sustain dps plus the fights are short again. You bring a lm just for Power looks like a fail raid.
5. If you bring a class for 1 skill say SI looks like the raid is fail?
Sorry to burst your bubble but someone had to say it.
LMs have an (almost) equivalent of RW + CD in AC + SaE (with draigoch set, which I have macroed). If you have RKs (circle) or hunters using fire oil (raven/tar), I'm pretty sure we surpass a burg in terms of +inc damage debuffs. Then you have all the defensive debuffs, raven tac mit buff, SI, off heals (I intend to get 3 pcs of the moors set so I can have BoH hot again), power share, better CC, ranged corruption removal... Of course you loose the ST damage of the burg, but for anything hard it is clearly worth it. I don't understand the survivability problems... For a raiding LM will is not particularly important, so you are free to focus more on finesse/morale/tactical mit. Burgs that want to do good DPS can't do the same.
So what if you can do fights you have on farm without a LM? You can also do them without burgs. LMs don't stack at all, so more than 1 is a waste of a spot, but that has always been the case.
Maybe you are just trolling (nice avatar), but there are many people who seem to think this is true. Only the other day in global there were people arguing that you shouldn't bother with LMs for T2 Orthanc and just take another burg instead.
I just don't see a use for them..
And apparently neither do you :?
You dont know anything about a lore master you frikin noob. we have a heal that can heal like 8k . In raids we can heal enemies, cure diseases, and debuff. Our knowledge when traited allows us to heal all fellowship members from dieseases. You also have no idea how much our debuffs help
we can almost aoe better then champions ok, improved sticky gourd, gust of wind, cracked earth, ents go to war, amazing aoe attacks. Improve sticky gourd dealses MASSIVE DPS when combined with our sticky tar. A full dps build can be emtremley powerful, especially when paired with a raven. I spared a champion and my raven got 6 flanks. People underestimate the power of the raven. My raven healed almost 6k of my morale, I took out the champ with out even using WOC. Ravens flank a ton so you can heal a lot and sign of battle wizards fire also deals damage to then enemy. When traited it does 25 percent more damage as well
we can almost aoe better then champions ok, improved sticky gourd, gust of wind, cracked earth, ents go to war, amazing aoe attacks. Improve sticky gourd dealses MASSIVE DPS when combined with our sticky tar. A full dps build can be emtremley powerful, especially when paired with a raven. I spared a champion and my raven got 6 flanks. People underestimate the power of the raven. My raven healed almost 6k of my morale, I took out the champ with out even using WOC. Ravens flank a ton so you can heal a lot and sign of battle wizards fire also deals damage to then enemy. When traited it does 25 percent more damage as well
LOL. That champ has to be very bad or you were very lucky. Just one word: CBR. Champs are probably the class that has more edge over Lore-Masters at spars.
Haha...gotta love people who cant play/dont know how the class works and directly reach the conclusion that the class is useless instead of coming here in humility and asking for help in understanding
So lets break it down -
Originally Posted by spockerized
Let's look at this from the most logical point. A squishy class that really only makes the job of a healer harder when faced with burst damage. The actual damage done by a Lm is laughable and the pets hit for what 64? What is always the first class to die... The LM. Look at these points.
Actual damage done by a loremaster is far better than you know of.....I can outdo most Hunters, Champs and Rks in burst damage.....let alone the other classes.... A LM is not squishy if played even above average.....even in the face of burst damage....A pet is not supposed to blow something up for you....do understand pets and their skills and uses before coming to criticize them......unless played by a total noob, the LM should NEVER be the first class to die. Period. If you are having these things happening, youre doing something wrong.... Big time....
1. The Bosses that anyone does in ToO are zerg bosses no need for CC.
Have you been inside ToO?....you couldve used much better examples to show that CC is not needed....but ToO is the most cc-demanding of all instances....Do try it....you'll be surprised.....
2. Because how short the bosses are the debuffs actually help mitigate what damage.
I dont know what you mean by short, but do try to fight Saruman or ToO t2 (or even t1 for that matter) and many other instance bosses without debuffs.....you'll be surprised at how fail and inefficient a dps race really is....
3. Since most of the damage that happens in these fights is melee seems logical to stack burgs.. More debuffs+outgoing damage.
I dont know what you mean here either.....we have melee/ranged/tactical debuffs far stronger than burgs....not to mention, we have other debuffs...crit chance, avoidances, attack duration, etc.....And all our skills are ranged, so we dont need to risk going into the boss's AoE range to pull em off unlike Burgs....
4. At this point everyone should have enough ICPR or class skills to sustain dps plus the fights are short again. You bring a lm just for Power looks like a fail raid.
It is one of the LM's many many jobs (read LM basics for more info on said jobs)....and many fights are longer than many dps races....if you think every class has an equal amount of ICPR at lvl 75 and it should be awesome, youre sadly mistaken....power batteries are needed and running out of power is not fail....its natural....
5. If you bring a class for 1 skill say SI looks like the raid is fail?
Again, one of the many roles....I'll point out to reading LM basics for more info on said roles
Sorry to burst your bubble but someone had to say it.
Sorry to burst -your- bubble, but you need to play a class and learn it, to know anything about it....even for successful trolling if its an attempt at that.....this is too bad even for a troll post....sorry mate....you need a good informed base to even bash something successfully....not everyone can do that....
I have never been refused to a fellowship and am invited to planned raids beforehand so that I may make time....a well played LM is a huge asset to any group/raid.....those who know what theyre doing know the importance of an LM in a group......and those who do not understand that only deprive themselves of a big advantage.....
Our kin runs ToO tier 2 every week and we clear challenge on lighting/acid and shadow I can go dps or full AM and no one not the tanks or healers notice the difference to the damage being done to the group. I will admit though I go AM or DPS depending on the group make up, I am also there to give power and on fights like acid to aoe nuke the adds as that is far more benefit to the group with my burst dps than debuffing the boss! I don't like this road that the LM has gone down, if I wanted a dps class of this nature I would have rolled a RK. But it is what it is and I will stubbornly keep debuffing away, who knows one day I might need it again
However try and clear the trash in ToO without a LM at least there a LM can shine in there normal role of CC masters, Gotheron imo was the best fight for a LM how I wish that ToO had a boss like that
Last edited by Alydariel; Apr 21 2012 at 09:42 AM.
No one notice's what i do, until i stop doing it. - A LM quote
When traited for support he's absolutely right. DPS-traited our damage isn't too shabby, but an LM doing that kind of damage is pretty useless for any of the LM's other roles and is wasting a slot a good damage dealer could use.
I find loads of people asking for LMs, also i think we bring many things to the table in groups.
We can do a bit of heal (i forgot how many times ive saved a healers butt with a simple beacon of hope because they forget to heal themselves).
We debuff to hell and back...we increase miss chance, decrease evade, increase crit, decrease armour, decrease ranged dmg, decrease attacks, increase dmg output, decrease tactical dmg. Not to mention we give power and i can tell you even now, i have to give tons of power to people; so whoever said giving power is not needed any more are either with people who slack, or just don't utilize the benefits of a good power topper
Oh and anti stun...still one of the most useful buffs in the game imo. (Certain mobs stun the tank, when that happens aggro is lost..who gets the brunt of the mobs angry rage then? usually the healer Lms can counter that with one simple flick of a wrist, who else can do that?)
Damage output, i have heard so many different stories on this, i personally have geared up towards dmg dealing as i duo/3 man things in-game and i can blast out a ton of damage. We are not exactly on the top of the list for single target dmg but aoe is pretty huge from what i have seen/done/witnessed.
On the dying front i never die first, a good lm is also careful and knows when to use wisdom, a pot, inner flame, spirit pet heals etc etc. (also if the tank your with is good enough a shield wall will go a long way) ;-p
It is all down to how well the lm plays and how well people play around the lm, if you don't know the full potential of an lm then i guess you wont get the most out of one.
Just in case anyone was still interested in this silliness, these screenies pretty much sum it up:
They're the first 2 saruman T2 kills and the first two F&F T2 challenge kills and based on time to kill you'd have to say these are possibly the hardest bosses that Turbine's ever released. Guess what class is represented in every group?
This was exactly the point some of us were making earlier - when you're doing content that's actually HARD (ie not just faceroll farming stuff), LMs are important.
Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.
Just in case anyone was still interested in this silliness, these screenies pretty much sum it up:
They're the first 2 saruman T2 kills and the first two F&F T2 challenge kills and based on time to kill you'd have to say these are possibly the hardest bosses that Turbine's ever released. Guess what class is represented in every group?
multiple Mini's/guards/burgs...
Yah yah we know they are OP... This thread is on Lm's.
DPS-traited our damage isn't too shabby, but an LM doing that kind of damage is pretty useless for any of the LM's other roles and is wasting a slot a good damage dealer could use.
You are also talking about your LM, right?
I don't know what you are wearing and what/how you skilling for DPS, but as long as my LM has a 124% tactical damage and can make 1.100 - 1.600 DPS in Raids, it is a good DPS klass beside his other abilities.
But here in the LM forum we allready had this diskussion and i'm really tired to argue with players (in general) who are not willig to find (grind for) the appropiate equip and do not want really learn the klass and then just mocking about DPS-LMs
Regards
CA
Last edited by CaerArianrhod; Jun 03 2012 at 05:52 PM.
You are also talking about your LM, right?
I don't know what you are wearing and what/how you skilling for DPS, but as long as my LM has a 124% tactical damage and can make 1.100 - 1.600 DPS in Raids, it is a good DPS klass beside his other abilities.
But here in the LM forum we allready had this diskussion and i'm really tired to argue with players (in general) who are not willig to find (grind for) the appropiate equip and do not want really learn the klass and then just mocking about DPS-LMs
Regards
CA
Depends on context. In a 3-6man or easy raid (like T1 orthanc, draigoch, t2 lightning etc.), LM DPS is more than good enough. For situations where you really need max DPS (acid zergmode, ff challenge, shadow challenge etc.) it really isn't up to par with 'real' DPS classes (hunter/champ/burg/RK).
For situations where you really need max DPS (acid zergmode, ff challenge, shadow challenge etc.) it really isn't up to par with 'real' DPS classes (hunter/champ/burg/RK).
There are so many possible situations, group combinations, instances etc. And all that is depending on the hunter/champ/burg/RK AND the LM, equip, mastering the class and so on. I know some hunters/champs/burgs to whom i may compare my LM's DPS and i will usually stay on the second place. But those hunters/champs/burgs are rarely widespread. I do not say, that (my) LM is the best, i'm sure this is not the case, but i really disagree with the myth that LMs would be not good for DPS.
I will not post damage/DPS numbers, but i find funny if i hear my kinnies to say, that LMs has to be nerved, because they make to much damage or if friends ask me for my LM to join a group/raid as a DPS-class
Let's look at this from the most logical point. A squishy class that really only makes the job of a healer harder when faced with burst damage. The actual damage done by a Lm is laughable and the pets hit for what 64? What is always the first class to die... The LM. Look at these points.
1. The Bosses that anyone does in ToO are zerg bosses no need for CC.
2. Because how short the bosses are the debuffs actually help mitigate what damage.
3. Since most of the damage that happens in these fights is melee seems logical to stack burgs.. More debuffs+outgoing damage.
4. At this point everyone should have enough ICPR or class skills to sustain dps plus the fights are short again. You bring a lm just for Power looks like a fail raid.
5. If you bring a class for 1 skill say SI looks like the raid is fail?
Sorry to burst your bubble but someone had to say it.
I don't completly agree with you, but I must admit that LM seam getting less useful...
1.
Acid, Shadow and FnF wings are Zerg pull rooms, but not Lightning's nor Saruman's, cc there is needed.
2.
Sadly none AM speced LM debuff aren't that useful; I suggested in my post...
to make Deep Lore increase lore duration instead of maximum target and move the maximum target increase into the 3 traits set bonus of AM line.
That would allow debuff to be more relevent since they would last as long as CD.
3.
there I don't agree, burg don't have more debuff and they are more prone to die since they are melee.
4.
There I agree.
Only in few long boss fight did raid are getting power issue; most of the time, if a class go OOP, it means that they are doing something wrong....
Cappy got song-bro/inspire switch and now for wrath RC
Mini got the Anthem of Composure/coda PoT
Champ Second Wind/Vigour of Champion, Controlled Burn... I only get OOP when using in mid fight but with Vigour of Champion/Second Wind I can nullify that.
...( I won't list all the classes that's not the point)
5.
Well there is still many skill that are useful: anti-stun/root/daze, just GoW debuff is quite useful.
but yes LM isn't as much a REquirement as they used to be.
As for DPS well even deep DPS traited LM cannot do as much as RK/hunter/Champ deep DPS, but they do more damage then Cappy for sure.
-Most, if not all damage you take in ToO is tacical. Tactical mitigation has a cap, and frost-lore is the single most helpful debuff in there. Reduces outgoing tactical boss damage by 25% What else would you want?
-Also, I still find myself sharing power. Particularly in Saruman Phase 5, because you are prone to spikes that cost a lot of power to outheal, and deaths which need to be powered up again. You barely have to wait between phases.
Yes, for CC you could replace a LM with another burg AND have a hunter root AND a minstrel fear.. But then you`re wasting 3 classes` valuable time.
There`s plenty of other reasons you can take a LM to ToO but since you`re obviously leading raids like a pro there I won`t have to tell you any tactics.
-Most, if not all damage you take in ToO is tacical. Tactical mitigation has a cap, and frost-lore is the single most helpful debuff in there. Reduces outgoing tactical boss damage by 25% What else would you want?
Actually, it isn't. Damage type (tactical/physical) =/= Damage source (melee/ranged/tactical). In the Saruman fight basically all of the dangerous damage is tactical, but lightning/f&f are pretty equally spread (melee/tactical lighting, all 3 f&f) and acid/shadow are almost entirely melee.
Actually, it isn't. Damage type (tactical/physical) =/= Damage source (melee/ranged/tactical). In the Saruman fight basically all of the dangerous damage is tactical, but lightning/f&f are pretty equally spread (melee/tactical lighting, all 3 f&f) and acid/shadow are almost entirely melee.[/COLOR]
Yes, ofcourse! *blush* Serves me right for typing without thinking!
I was going on about the big boss upstairs, but shouldn`t have put `most/all` without mentioning.
Still the point kind of stands, tactical damage is dangerous, particularly if it spikes/crits. And the debuff files off a chunk.
There is but one master of the ring and he does not share power. I guess Sauron wasn't a LM. On topic, while the LM might not be needed for power as much any more, I still couldn't say they were useless. The debuffs speed up any encounter, or make it easier on healers, as does cc. They can even off-tank an add or 2 with a bear. What more could you ask for?
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