Thema: THREAT in Update 6.1

I see the mods dont like GiFs this week.

Zitat von Erasluindor

I see the mods dont like GiFs this week.

On the bright side I can use those gifs somewhere else and not feel bad.

Happy 4/20 day!

Zitat von LotRO-Chris

Thanks for the info. My mistake.



Wow. Not sure exactly why you think I was "jumping to conclusions" or making an ad-hominem attack on you, but I was neither complaining nor attacking you or anyone else.

Perhaps my post wasn't precise enough. My comment about solo mindset was intended to reflect the fact that you never need to consider threat when playing solo, but everyone does when they're playing in a group.

Maybe I'm just not looking at it from the same perspective. I can see a desire to do the highest DPS possible in DPS race instances. If that's all a player goes into, I can also see that view, although even for DPS races, I'd wonder if it's true that max DPS buffs/traits/legacies are always the only ones worth slotting. But then I tend to always be skeptical of absolute ideas like that.

Just my 2p.

Oh please. This has nothing to do with "precision", and everything to do with straw-manning other people. Again, I am not talking about the fact that hunters have to do something to keep aggro down. What I am talking about is a. that even if I use quite a few of those things, it is still exceedingly easy for me to pull later on in a fight, and b., that threat management requires far fewer tradeoffs for other damage classes than for hunters. This was, I think, fairly clear.
So why "respond" by once again suggesting that dds (hunters?) are only concerned with parsing? Because that's basically what you're doing, in your transparently veiled way where you talk about how "you can see how this is a view that some people might hold".

I play both a hunter (main) and a warden (newish, post ROI), and I have found this thread to be illuminating. I will definitely revisit my threat-gen rotation with some of the suggestions in the middle of the thread. Special thanks to the OP and respondants on the first few pages who really did turn what could've been something sorta ugly into something sorta enlightening.

I did want to chime in re: warden threat leech. For many months, I didn't realize that the warden's threat leech skills were not leeching my threat because I was too far away. I frankly didn't know that there was a radius limit that was much, much smaller than my ranged DPS limit. This is still the case, right? To me, made sense to be far away from the action, but I didn't realize that I was doing the warden-tank a disservice. Since then, I have kept my hunter closer to the warden-tank (and my healer, for that matter) and ask hunters and other ranged DPS to do likewise when I'm wardening. (I also ask for a few seconds to build threat, and regretfully remind the group that I'm a warden, not a guard, and I won't necessarily be able to save them with a clicky if they do peel a mob off me.)

Zitat von kiuassault

I did want to chime in re: warden threat leech. For many months, I didn't realize that the warden's threat leech skills were not leeching my threat because I was too far away. I frankly didn't know that there was a radius limit that was much, much smaller than my ranged DPS limit. This is still the case, right?

I'm not sure if it applies to all of the leeches, but I think some do have a 25m range. Conviction's heal has the same range, so if you're not getting that heal then you're not being leeched. It might be difficult to tell depending how many other heals are on you, but the warden might be able to tell based on timing and how much his heal amount usually is.

Can't always afford to watch the back row, but in casual stuff like Limlight I will keep an eye on the hunters and ask them to step into heal range. Helps not only with leeches, but also when they get hit by roots.

How are the other wardens fairing in things like Acid T2 challenge?

I'm not finding it very easy keeping defences and maintaining threat against all the 1.5/2k dps. (as high as 30k overall someone figured at one point).

I managed to do it with the lead I got from a single EoB before, but it's so damn difficult now.
I'm starting to wish they nerf DC for better threat tools. -.-


Let me know some of your other experiences!

I was the one defending that threat was still good after 6.1, now I'm not so sure anymore.

Did my 1st ToO T2 tanking after update 6.1 and I am not impressed (lightning). If I can start the fights and do the initial aggro I am good, but like most of ToO T2 trash, some mobs have to be CC and other kited and that is when I have problems.

It is taking too long to get the CC/Kited mobs undercontrol, getting aggro on them is hard. I was the main tank. It was very hard to get aggro if someone else pulled the mobs kiting tank or get initial aggro on the CC mobs.

I am not saying that is not possible, but it is more risk and we will need a lot of aggro management from the raid. Dumps of aggro from champs, provokers from burgs, hunters going easy on the mobs that were CC and Kited letting wardens...

EoB still the best tool, but I am not happy.

I found tanking on warden just to damn hard to be bothered with it any more, yes it is possible and I don't think anyone is saying that it is not possible, but it takes the warden to be at the top end of there game the whole time, yes I know this is a advance class as is the Burgler and LM and I play a LM as my main and I can say the warden is in a league of it's own when it comes to advance. There in lies the problem it takes a warden with top end gear a very skilled player to be able to do the job of tanking and even then that is not enough as the warden will require a skilled team behind him, a team that can manage there aggro a champ that knows to dump aggro on the warden, a hunter that will go easy while the warden trys to gain a threat lead.

The trouble is alot of the bosses in ToO seem to be a dps race, where doing the maximum amout of damage at the start is an advantage, the same with the trash in ToO to a certain extent, the dps group is trying to burn stuff down quickly and that means the warden has to spam aggro skills and that leaves precious little time to put up self heal dots and defences.

I certainly enjoyed the bugged TV and EoB, I actually felt for the first time I could do a proper job tanking in that I could keep up my defences, grab aggro from adds that run of to the squishys and have a instant aggro grab should I die, swopping aggro with a guard on lighting T2 was really easy and to me it was more of how a warden should be, aggro should be easy on a warden because we have to work at self healing dots and defences where as a guard imo should have to work at aggro as his defences are already in place for him. Until the devs realise that a warden can manage 2 out of the 3 things we need to do to be a good tank I can't see things changing for this class sadly. which is a shame because I love to tank on my warden but atm for me anyways it just feels too frantic the whole time.

I have top end-game gear and I didn't have any problems staying alive. The only problem was to get aggro from someone else, it took just too long for a ToO T2. After I got aggro I could keep it just fine.

Give wardens a 10s force attack on a single mob with small CD (30s to 60s or something). That will be enough.

DC don't count, it should be kept for emergency.

Zitat von Untg99

How are the other wardens fairing in things like Acid T2 challenge?

I agree with what you're saying about Acid T2. It was extremely hard to hold aggro here the other night. With Aggression being useless, we don't really have any way to get big aggro, just a lot of small aggro that doesn't add up fast enough. At the beginning of this fight it's not really enough.

I also noticed the problem with CC'd mobs. It takes too long to pick them up after they have been CC'd, it reminds me of pre-ROI days and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

Zitat von thunderchickn

I agree with what you're saying about Acid T2. It was extremely hard to hold aggro here the other night. With Aggression being useless, we don't really have any way to get big aggro, just a lot of small aggro that doesn't add up fast enough. At the beginning of this fight it's not really enough.

I also noticed the problem with CC'd mobs. It takes too long to pick them up after they have been CC'd, it reminds me of pre-ROI days and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

Now we wait for Dev Confirmation that the War Cry DoT in Determination is being removed. Another thing that would be nice (not really a horrible deficiency in the class imo just a nice new toy) is a single target ranged aggro skill. Maybe making our javelin skills have threat components in Det would work. Played my guard a bit and gotta say.. The skill Fray the Edge is really perfect for this. No CC break+aggro on single mob at range+increased CC chance! Its precision and utility is simply amazing. The gambit system would make this hard to balance however due to the spammable nature of gambits. Thats y i think javelin skills would be best. Short cooldown so its not spammable. Javelin toss would be my candidate for this. Large upfront threat +ToT from the bleed it causes. Just tossin out a couple of thoughts here

To me the real issue is when we die half way through a raid fight. I'd love to hear Orions thoughts on this. That was a major issue for us for a long time. The problem was eliminated with the introduction of Aggression. Recently we got a huge nerf to Aggression but we had a bugged out Eob so things were okay. Now that the TV trait is fixed and Aggression is still nerfed how can we get aggro back after death. I can't believe we are back talking about this again, I thought this was solved years ago.

Zitat von thunderchickn

I agree with what you're saying about Acid T2. It was extremely hard to hold aggro here the other night. With Aggression being useless, we don't really have any way to get big aggro, just a lot of small aggro that doesn't add up fast enough. At the beginning of this fight it's not really enough.

I also noticed the problem with CC'd mobs. It takes too long to pick them up after they have been CC'd, it reminds me of pre-ROI days and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

It was doable pre-roi, but an annoyance. Also not to mention how much dps has increased in comparison since then.

Wardens are very very close to where they need to be. I have no problem with getting and holding threat. We need bug fixes which I won't name here as there is thread with them clearly listed already. We also need two other things I can think of.

* #1 a way to catch threat back up after defeat
* #2 a aoe threat skill or gambit that is CC friendly

Other than that I think we are as good as we need to be.

This is like the best Monday ever. I come into the forums and other people discussing things that I think are important for the class.

*Animation issues with skills (DC in particular - different thread)
*Building aggro on CC'd mobs
*Aggro recovery after death.

It's almost everything we argued about last two weeks wrapped up into a non-controversial conversation. I have a feeling it is going to be a good week.

Just thought i'd jump in with a quick update after having run some ToO runs again this week.

I'm still struggling with Aggro. I changed my rotation to include more of a 2:1 ratio (roughly, you know, as the fight allows) of Aggro skills and Self Buffs. I neglected self heals apart from Conviction and CoS for the self-buffs. This was mainly EoBs, DoW, Conviction with some PBs / War Cries

I find that I am still struggling to keep the dps target on me. In any given trash pull the Guard would usually pick up the Trolls / Warg(s) and I was asked to tank anything that is being dps'd or out of its CC cycle. While I still think it would have been better to have the Warden on the targets that are not being DPS'd (like the trolls that we tank on the side until we kill the little ones, etc.) I should not have struggled so much to pick up the DPS targets.

True, leaches helped. No one in my fellowship took aggro off me. It was now the Champ and Burg (with some nice crits) in the other fellowship that i could not out-aggro. And if they would be put in my group so I can leach off 'em then it would have been the Hunter.

I did not tank any bosses yet as I am, personally, not happy with where I am back to on my Warden. I cannot seem to out-aggro top tier DPS even with a threat-heavy rotation.

On a brighter note 30s god-mode from DC is overpowered. Anyone that complained about EoB threat bug with TV should refuse to use this skill in its current format as it clearly goes against the essence of the Warden and should be changed to either increase animation length to 10s or reduce mitigations buff to +20% (total of 70%).

= because I haven't earned the right to switch back to my Warden sig.

Zitat von Ravenstride

On a brighter note 30s god-mode from DC is overpowered. Anyone that complained about EoB threat bug with TV should refuse to use this skill in its current format as it clearly goes against the essence of the Warden and should be changed...

If you don't like it, don't use it. But many other wardens appreciate the ability to use as many effective mitigation tools as we can.

Zitat von Morat

If you don't like it, don't use it. But many other wardens appreciate the ability to use as many effective mitigation tools as we can.

I was not one of those that complained about bugged EoB + TV so my qualifier allows me to use it unashamedly.

Also, Jernau (can I call you Jernau? that still is one of my favorite books ) may i refer you to this Wikipedia article

Zitat von Ravenstride

I was not one of those that complained about bugged EoB + TV so my qualifier allows me to use it unashamedly.

Also, Jernau (can I call you Jernau? that still is one of my favorite books ) may i refer you to this Wikipedia article

Ah, I suspected your tongue might have been a-cheek. All my toons are characters from Iain M Banks books, and my two mains are my warden Gurgeh (protagonist in Player of Games, still my favourite Banks novel) and my champ Zakalwe (protagonist in Use of Weapons, probably his best regarded book). Most in kin just call me 'G' (except for newer kinnies who who know me as Zak because of all those months it was just too painful to play my warden much), as no one is quite sure on the pronunciation.

Edit: Player of Games protagonist's full name is Jernau Morat Gurgeh, but I only use the full name in special circumstances.

well the Culture being what it is everyone is probably free to pronounce it any way they would choose to

I'd also rate those two as my favorites, in that order. I'd imagine a lot of people on these boards would empathize with The Player of Games's protagonist. I find his collection a bit hit and miss at times but the backdrop and settings for the stories (The Culture) I find fascinating.

Zitat von Ravenstride

Just thought i'd jump in with a quick update after having run some ToO runs again this week.

I'm still struggling with Aggro. I changed my rotation to include more of a 2:1 ratio (roughly, you know, as the fight allows) of Aggro skills and Self Buffs. I neglected self heals apart from Conviction and CoS for the self-buffs. This was mainly EoBs, DoW, Conviction with some PBs / War Cries

I find that I am still struggling to keep the dps target on me. In any given trash pull the Guard would usually pick up the Trolls / Warg(s) and I was asked to tank anything that is being dps'd or out of its CC cycle. While I still think it would have been better to have the Warden on the targets that are not being DPS'd (like the trolls that we tank on the side until we kill the little ones, etc.) I should not have struggled so much to pick up the DPS targets.

True, leaches helped. No one in my fellowship took aggro off me. It was now the Champ and Burg (with some nice crits) in the other fellowship that i could not out-aggro. And if they would be put in my group so I can leach off 'em then it would have been the Hunter.

I did not tank any bosses yet as I am, personally, not happy with where I am back to on my Warden. I cannot seem to out-aggro top tier DPS even with a threat-heavy rotation.

On a brighter note 30s god-mode from DC is overpowered. Anyone that complained about EoB threat bug with TV should refuse to use this skill in its current format as it clearly goes against the essence of the Warden and should be changed to either increase animation length to 10s or reduce mitigations buff to +20% (total of 70%).

= because I haven't earned the right to switch back to my Warden sig.

When you said the champ was pulling stuff form you I could have believed you and called the champ an a$$ for not ebbing and such. But when the burg is pulling stuff that makes me think it's your problem unless of course there's 8 burgs in your group. Just to give you an idea 2 eob give ~2k tps that's almost as high as a balanced raiding group goes. Combined with double dow + conviction + double aggression there's no way in hell anyone would pull anything off you. My guess is, and excuse me for saying this and I may be, that you're not executing gambits fast enough. On a raid boss you should have 2 EoBs up all the time and every 2 or three rotations I let my DoW buff expire and use that time for a double SoD and then hit double DoW again which gives a nice boost to threat.

One last thing, I never hit a single leech always a BM'd double. The dps has double since Mirkwood and our threat leeches haven't hence the need to hit leeches twice as much. Even if you're only leeching from your group you're still getting more threat.

Zitat von Shintagh

One last thing, I never hit a single leech always a BM'd double. The dps has double since Mirkwood and our threat leeches haven't hence the need to hit leeches twice as much. Even if you're only leeching from your group you're still getting more threat.

DPS has more than doubled. Pre-RoI a decent hunter parse was 500-600 dps; now it's 1800-2300. Burglars can reach 2700 (see the T2 Acid speedrun). Provoke is a great tool, but it needs to be traited for and/or legacied for +threat up for it to actually counter the self-threat via dps the burglar puts out.

I'm not so sure I like having our skills being balanced with the mindset that they must be chained back-to-back via Battle Memory. It means we aren't able to use it for emergency gambits or to refresh buffs just as they are about to end. It would be used for those purposes if our threat gambits were able to carry weight on their own but instead they're balanced with the mindset that they'll be doubled up.

Zitat von Ravenstride

On a brighter note 30s god-mode from DC is overpowered. Anyone that complained about EoB threat bug with TV should refuse to use this skill in its current format as it clearly goes against the essence of the Warden and should be changed to either increase animation length to 10s or reduce mitigations buff to +20% (total of 70%).

= because I haven't earned the right to switch back to my Warden sig.

Do you think it would work to use the 30 seconds of DC fun-mode to get a huge threat lead on everyone in the raid?

I haven't been playing much in the last week or two and haven't played with it much but my intentions for DC were to try and use it to get crazy threat leads as you will have 30 seconds to spam whatever gambits you like without worrying about defenses.

I'm curious to how the people with threat problems are starting fights? I'm also curious as to how Aggression is now useless??

Battle Prep allows you to get up the majority of self buffs, so you should have at least 30 seconds once a fight starts to go all out on threat before you have to refresh buffs again. I don't bother with self heals (other than Conviction), until it's time to refresh the buffs and haven't had a single threat issue since 6.1 hit.

Aggression... it's far from useless and faster to fire off than both Conviction and DoW. Threat leaches are the key to staying ahead of the pack in most situations IMO, and nothing is quicker than Aggression. As it stands now, I don't see the need to change Aggression back to the way it was.

Aggro after defeat? Attach it to an existing javelin skill or make a new one and put a fork in it.

Its simple to me really. All this talk about how you need to spam and use bm and gambit builders as fast as you can to get 2 skills off as fast as possable just to HOLD threat on a good dps group to me is just funny. Someone ses they can spam this stuff really fast and threat is no problem and someone els ses they cant quite spam it fast enough and have problems.

If 80% of what your doing as a tank is spamming threat as fast as you can.. Your just a guard with ###### armor.
threat is 1/3 what we should be doing. Another 1/3 is self heals. And the last is b/p/e buffing. That means out of 6 gambets only 2 should even NEED to be primary threat skills. In fact a "######" warden SHOULD be able to hold agro on a boss using just Dow and Conv, and any 2-3 resonably long gambits for def/heals NOT USING Builders. He should hold agro but his slowness would mean he takes more damage and is harder to heal. The way it is now if your in a fight with a early stun or lag messes up a gambet build or two...everyone in the raid pulls threat EXCEPT you.

Who here can honestly say that they make a pull, dps does not need to hold back for more than 2 seconds. They have agro locked down. And for the duration of the anybossfight they can keep at least 2 b/p/e buffs up and 2 self heals **conviction and Eob do not count. Those are threat skills more than a heal or buff on a boss fight. Eob on a single target...that is just silly and only points out how broken we are. We only have 1 threat gambit that is anywhere close to effective. We got lucky its an aoe skill.

The Problem is threat does not work. We have no cc threat skill. We have no way to pull threat off a single fellow member who pulls threat other than out threating them. Guards can coppy threat +20% making agro swap cake. Guards get threat just for being there. I dont want guard easy mode. But threat needs to be a non issue. We need skills that take % of threat. Either from a single target or back when aggression worked.

Now for something constructive.

First off war-cry needs to loose the damage i think even the dev's will aggree with that by this point.

Aggression is so broken its not even funny. Ill agree that having it take 10% of everyone's threat was a bit silly. You could get some up front threat then just do this twice at 75/50/25% of the fight and have unbreakable threat. That puts threat way behind the 1/3 of what we should be doing. My Idea. For all skills that "leach threat from fellowship" over 4 long. Basically dow conviction and aggression. An initial 2% threat leach from all fellows like it use to be but at a resonable level. And for maby 20 seconds "copies 25% of threat generated by fellowship members within 46m. Maby 25% for aggression and 20% for dow and conviction. What i mean by copying the threat is. I pop aggression. For the next 20 seconds say a hunter produces 40,000 threat. I instantly get 2% of his total threat. And 10k threat from the threat he generated in the 20 seconds of the aggression. These can all run at the same time but not stack with themselves. This way we have to keep using threat skills for all of the fight. And our threat can scale with the fellowship depending on how good or badly geared they are...to a point. Our basic up front single target threat skills like SoV should have the amount of threat they creat upped by at least 50% along with the "initial aoe pull threat skills" like war-cry and goad.

Ackibo, you simply don't understand what I was saying.

I'm saying that for the first 30 seconds BP allows us to only have to worry about threat, so just build a monster lead for that 30 seconds. After 30 seconds, some of the self buffs are starting to wear off, so just slip into a normal rotation. The nature of the warden class is now non stop button mashing. Personally, I like spamming early so I don't have to later in a fight.

Aggression never was a percentage leach in live form. It's still good and far from useless. Perhaps the people leaving Aggression out of their rotation should reconsider, maybe they'd have less aggro issues...

Saying that all a warden should have to do is DoW and Conviction for threat makes it sound like the class just isn't for you. Talk about EZmode...

Zitat von Ravenstride

On a brighter note 30s god-mode from DC is overpowered. Anyone that complained about EoB threat bug with TV should refuse to use this skill in its current format as it clearly goes against the essence of the Warden and should be changed to either increase animation length to 10s or reduce mitigations buff to +20% (total of 70%).

Do you also feel Guardian's Pledge is overpowered? It's true that BPE doesn't work while stunned and mitigation does, but ultimately it's not that different a skill. And they don't have to trait anything to use it. And they get it at level 20. +50% BPE at level 20 when stuns are much less fatal is considerably more powerful, especially considering that guardians get additional benefit from the extra block/parry responses they would not have without Pledge.

At level 65+ when stuns come more and more frequently, it could be argued that DC's mitigations are worth more than Pledge's BPE. Maybe our cooldown should start at 5m like Pledge, but then again we have to use a legendary slot for it, we don't get it for free.

You may still feel it's overpowered, and of course you have the right to believe that and not use it. A warden can certainly be a viable tank without ever using DC, not having a guardian I'm not sure whether the same could be said about Pledge. But I don't think it gives us that much of an edge to use it.

Edit: vvv Ahh, well then.... nevermind.

Zitat von Nydorewyth

Do you also feel Guardian's Pledge is overpowered? It's true that BPE doesn't work while stunned and mitigation does, but ultimately it's not that different a skill. And they don't have to trait anything to use it. And they get it at level 20. +50% BPE at level 20 when stuns are much less fatal is considerably more powerful, especially considering that guardians get additional benefit from the extra block/parry responses they would not have without Pledge.

At level 65+ when stuns come more and more frequently, it could be argued that DC's mitigations are worth more than Pledge's BPE. Maybe our cooldown should start at 5m like Pledge, but then again we have to use a legendary slot for it, we don't get it for free.

You may still feel it's overpowered, and of course you have the right to believe that and not use it. A warden can certainly be a viable tank without ever using DC, not having a guardian I'm not sure whether the same could be said about Pledge. But I don't think it gives us that much of an edge to use it.

Nydo,

He was being sarcastic. I too initially took as serious (tho I had my suspicons) his mocking of uber wardens who plead for nerfs when they think the class is getting too playable..

Zitat von Shintagh

When you said the champ was pulling stuff form you I could have believed you and called the champ an a$$ for not ebbing and such. But when the burg is pulling stuff that makes me think it's your problem unless of course there's 8 burgs in your group. Just to give you an idea 2 eob give ~2k tps that's almost as high as a balanced raiding group goes. Combined with double dow + conviction + double aggression there's no way in hell anyone would pull anything off you. My guess is, and excuse me for saying this and I may be, that you're not executing gambits fast enough. On a raid boss you should have 2 EoBs up all the time and every 2 or three rotations I let my DoW buff expire and use that time for a double SoD and then hit double DoW again which gives a nice boost to threat.

One last thing, I never hit a single leech always a BM'd double. The dps has double since Mirkwood and our threat leeches haven't hence the need to hit leeches twice as much. Even if you're only leeching from your group you're still getting more threat.

My experience with the burg (and don't underestimate them. This guy has a 75 FA Dagger with 4 majors and a 75 FA bag which had 6 majors one of which he dropped to a minor) is that they can get really (un)lucky with their crit chains early on and pull aggro for a short while. The Champ is fairly new to our raid team and I don't think hes ebbing at all.

Also, my problem is not when tanking a boss. I believe that if I could focus on a single target and get people to give me a couple of seconds to get a lead it should be fine. What I am now finding is that when I tank a group of mobs I can hold the other 2-4 just fine but the first dps target which I don't get a chance to build a lead on basically is never mine. Its always on that champ. Seeing as its only one target (by the time the first is down I have enough of a lead on the rest) I just let it slide.

And yes I double up with BM on everything pretty much

2x DoW
2x SoD
2X EoB
2x Aggression

not on Shields Up or Tactics obv.

Zitat von danno8

Do you think it would work to use the 30 seconds of DC fun-mode to get a huge threat lead on everyone in the raid?

I haven't been playing much in the last week or two and haven't played with it much but my intentions for DC were to try and use it to get crazy threat leads as you will have 30 seconds to spam whatever gambits you like without worrying about defenses.

That could work if I use it before I pull. Otherwise the animation .... anyways there is another thread for this conversation

Zitat von Ravenstride

(...) increase animation length to 10s (..)

YES! Dance like a boss!^^

Zitat von Ravenstride

My experience with the burg (and don't underestimate them. This guy has a 75 FA Dagger with 4 majors and a 75 FA bag which had 6 majors one of which he dropped to a minor) is that they can get really (un)lucky with their crit chains early on and pull aggro for a short while. The Champ is fairly new to our raid team and I don't think hes ebbing at all.

Also, my problem is not when tanking a boss. I believe that if I could focus on a single target and get people to give me a couple of seconds to get a lead it should be fine. What I am now finding is that when I tank a group of mobs I can hold the other 2-4 just fine but the first dps target which I don't get a chance to build a lead on basically is never mine. Its always on that champ. Seeing as its only one target (by the time the first is down I have enough of a lead on the rest) I just let it slide.

And yes I double up with BM on everything pretty much

2x DoW
2x SoD
2X EoB
2x Aggression

not on Shields Up or Tactics obv.

Perhaps you should consider opening with Assailment conviction. I know it sounds very good on paper but is actually quiet hard to use effectively. You'll need some practice timing it and you subsequent execution. You should hit this as soon as the mobs are active and then hit a full masteried EoB goad and the half masteried EoB. This should eliminate the crit problem.

If this burg of yours crits as high and as often early into the pull as you say then I guarantee you that same thing will happen to a guard. As soon as the FT is over the target will go running towards the person critting 5k every few sec. Of course you may argue that the first dps target is dead by the time the FT is over but IMO its more of a dps problem than the tank's problem so the burg should try using provoke and the champ ebbing.

I perhaps wouldn't mind getting rid of DC in it's current form for a bit of an easier time on threat.

What I think is completely stupid with the design of threat is that EoB has the greatest single target threat amount even after the fix. I don't think it needs to be nerfed, but our single target threat skills need a significant buff. Why should our single target threat skills generate less threat than our multi target ones?

Zitat von Untg99

I perhaps wouldn't mind getting rid of DC in it's current form for a bit of an easier time on threat.

I would greatly mind giving up DC. There doesnt have to be a trade-off for everything. ​

Zitat von Balagast

What I think is completely stupid with the design of threat is that EoB has the greatest single target threat amount even after the fix. I don't think it needs to be nerfed, but our single target threat skills need a significant buff. Why should our single target threat skills generate less threat than our multi target ones?

Why do you want ST to be buffed? Don't say it's CC friendly in raids because there's no way in hell you can execute ST threat gambits on 3-4 different targets before they destroy your group. I see no reason for ST threat to be buffed, in fact warden has always been about AoE threat, some of it is CC friendly some if it isn't. ST threat for warden seems kind of redundant, they attached some threat to SoD line because using 4 length gambit just for evade isn't a good enough incentive and so that buffing yourself doesn't mean sacrificing a lot of threat. SoV line is absolutely useless and should be removed or made like SoD line with some buffs attached.

If they bring ST threat to the same level as EoB then what's the point of having a clone skill? If they make it better then EoB threat on bosses will go back to being easy mode which was the whole reason aggression was nerfed and bla bla threat revamp.

Besides ST threat lines are harder to execute since you have to build half of it manually where as EoB you can build using on 1 manual builder and that makes a world of difference IMO.

Zitat von Shintagh

Why do you want ST to be buffed? Don't say it's CC friendly in raids because there's no way in hell you can execute ST threat gambits on 3-4 different targets before they destroy your group. I see no reason for ST threat to be buffed, in fact warden has always been about AoE threat, some of it is CC friendly some if it isn't. ST threat for warden seems kind of redundant, they attached some threat to SoD line because using 4 length gambit just for evade isn't a good enough incentive and so that buffing yourself doesn't mean sacrificing a lot of threat. SoV line is absolutely useless and should be removed or made like SoD line with some buffs attached.

If they bring ST threat to the same level as EoB then what's the point of having a clone skill? If they make it better then EoB threat on bosses will go back to being easy mode which was the whole reason aggression was nerfed and bla bla threat revamp.

Besides ST threat lines are harder to execute since you have to build half of it manually where as EoB you can build using on 1 manual builder and that makes a world of difference IMO.

First, I'd like to thank you for actually offering your rotations and helpful suggestions on how to maintain aggro post 6.1 instead of vaguely suggesting "just adjust you fail wardens." I use threat rotations similar to you and have found aggro an issue in only two areas.

1) Tank swap on Kalbak T2. While I haven't been doing tank swaps since I was lvl 1 in Archet, like Horus has, I have successfully done them in OD Fear T2 and a lot of other content, pre-aggression and post. It is more difficult than before to quickly pull from the guard when we are both building a lot of threat to let our dps unload - which is needed in this dps race. Old aggression was nice for that, but what I really miss is the old precise blow, which brings me to point 2

2) ST threat. PB was great for this. Didn't break CC in raids, not when I had to get 3-4 targets, but when I was on a single target, hence it being a ST skill. It was quick to build and execute and firing off a couple of these would lock down any target no matter what the dps, raid or 3 man. There are times, especially in a raid with two tanks, when you only want to pull a single target. We don't currently have a good skill for this. On tank swaps, I would hit a couple of these and conviction/DoW/Aggression and that was all it took. I think a ST skill should be stronger than EoB, because it is only a ST and not a repeat of EoB+TV, room-wide threat lockdown.

Hopefully everyone can agree that each of us group with different people, run different levels of content and have different ideas of what makes the class fun. That means what may be working for one of us, won't necessarily work for someone else. I'd like to see more constructive comments along the lines of "this is what I do and it works for me" and less "I haven't had any problems, therefore you fail/whine/need to l2p." Traditionally the warden forums have been helpful and somewhat goofy. It would be nice to see less finger pointing and more help. Except for those wardens who still are against using masteries, those guys are just wrong.

Zitat von Grampybone

1) Tank swap on Kalbak T2. While I haven't been doing tank swaps since I was lvl 1 in Archet, like Horus has, I have successfully done them in OD Fear T2 and a lot of other content, pre-aggression and post. It is more difficult than before to quickly pull from the guard when we are both building a lot of threat to let our dps unload - which is needed in this dps race. Old aggression was nice for that, but what I really miss is the old precise blow, which brings me to point 2

I agree that agro swap is a problem and to me the ONLY problem with the current warden. The solution to this however does not lie in ST spammable threat gambits but specific agro swap skills. I made a thread a week ago about how we can transform aggression/deflection into pure agro swapping tools while also having to utility to catch up on threat post death. The only thing buffing ST threat would bring is that instead of spamming EoB you'll be spamming PB/SoV.

Zitat von Grampybone

2) ST threat. PB was great for this. Didn't break CC in raids, not when I had to get 3-4 targets, but when I was on a single target, hence it being a ST skill. It was quick to build and execute and firing off a couple of these would lock down any target no matter what the dps, raid or 3 man. There are times, especially in a raid with two tanks, when you only want to pull a single target. We don't currently have a good skill for this. On tank swaps, I would hit a couple of these and conviction/DoW/Aggression and that was all it took. I think a ST skill should be stronger than EoB, because it is only a ST and not a repeat of EoB+TV, room-wide threat lockdown.

I both agree and disagree with you on this one. What you say is true that at times we may need to pull a single target from a tank who has AoE lockdown on several mobs. This is call OFF-TANKING which is the Champs job as he has a force taunt and he can quickly switch stances. I don't think there is any single trash mob out there that can not be tanked by a champ. I would agree that having to ability to pull a single mob would be nice to have but it by no means would be a game breaking improvement. Once again if you refer to my aggression/deflection model you will find it offers this ability.

Zitat von Grampybone

Hopefully everyone can agree that each of us group with different people, run different levels of content and have different ideas of what makes the class fun. That means what may be working for one of us, won't necessarily work for someone else. I'd like to see more constructive comments along the lines of "this is what I do and it works for me" and less "I haven't had any problems, therefore you fail/whine/need to l2p." Traditionally the warden forums have been helpful and somewhat goofy. It would be nice to see less finger pointing and more help. Except for those wardens who still are against using masteries, those guys are just wrong.

This I can agree with 100% here. The Warden is an advanced class and while the general concept of how stuff works might be common among most players, to make it really work every player has their own unique set of adjustments. The more variables like group make up, dps levels, group experience and content you add to an advanced class the more you need to adjust accordingly.

Zitat von WhimsicalPacifist

DPS has more than doubled. Pre-RoI a decent hunter parse was 500-600 dps; now it's 1800-2300. Burglars can reach 2700 (see the T2 Acid speedrun). Provoke is a great tool, but it needs to be traited for and/or legacied for +threat up for it to actually counter the self-threat via dps the burglar puts out.

I'm not so sure I like having our skills being balanced with the mindset that they must be chained back-to-back via Battle Memory. It means we aren't able to use it for emergency gambits or to refresh buffs just as they are about to end. It would be used for those purposes if our threat gambits were able to carry weight on their own but instead they're balanced with the mindset that they'll be doubled up.

Yes dps has more than double, I was being modest. I do agree with you that having to use BM to double everything is not an ideal design and needs to be looked at but the reality is that gambits can never be use in reactions. If you get a hit by a 15k dev and you're in the middle building a Conviction you'd have to cancel or complete conviction which would take at least 2 seconds, build the new gambit( say old DC gambit) and then wait for execution which easily brings to total optimal reaction time to around 7 seconds. In a raid you can easily take upto 10k damage in 7 seconds and you'd be dead by then. The idea of BM was nice but not very practical.

The devs realized this and gave us some clicky emergency skills and moved gambits to a more proactive spamming role which is more natural.

Ok my ideas may be a little excessive. But we need a way to build threat other than one skill that we use a combination of masteries to spam as fast as possable. And yes on some pulls i do use dc to help pull but its just a 5 second force taunt. The def buff is huge and nice and came in really handy many a time. But that imo is a emergency skill not a pull skill 5 seconds is nothing.

That being said. The reason my ideas for aggression were on the extreme side is its a pure threat skill. It should be our large powerful threat skill to use for agro swaping and those times when the tank dies and needs to pick up new threat. Or in a raid when using 2 tanks and one goes down the other Needs to be able to pick up his mobs fast. We have no way to do this. Maby we need a gambit that can copy threat of a single fellowship member like a guard if not a massive threat leach. Either way im fine i just dont like guestimating the invisable threat meter when trying to swap before i explode in ToO.

And when one skill works so much better than all the others for threat that it becomes the only one worth using early in a fight unless the situation will not allow it (cc) there is a problem. I dont like using almost all my builders to make one gambit over and over and over. I like and want to be able to use several skills in any given 30 seconds of a fight. I do use aggression and i do use conviction i also like to use wall of steel and surety of death as well as dow. I see aggression as a big skill for rapid threat. Maby make it a lot stronger but make the power cost something to contend with so its not an easy button and spammed....like 500 power big.

An example of what i like to toss into rotation builder free because those change depending on what gambits i need to tack onto the end 33,3232,1212,2323,bm,21212,232 32. That has a lot of threat, and i can keep a ton of buffs going maxing my block evade and almost my parry as well as cap my tac mit with shield tactics. Keep a resonable heal going and still have room at the end to refresh either shield tac or mastery depending on the fight pluss one more gambit..often ill prep a bm and dbfd for power before the shield/tac mastery and hit that bm just before my sod. I do know what im doing and as you can guess i dont really like using 2 builders for gambits i like using mostly 1 and spread things out it gives you more options if you need to react. I am probably not the best warden and dont clame to be. My big problem is in comparison to the threat from eob everything els is broken. You should not have to battle prep eob for trash pulls. A warcry and goad should give you enough to build a eob or other big aoe threat skill (if we had one) and your bm'd eob should be able to be saved for a few seconds to let the leach from eob heal you some...like the skill was ment to. Not let loose the second the first one goes off.

I posted this rotation to show what i think being a warden is about. High self buffing and some heals to mitigate more damage. Leaching threat as a primary source. But with this rotation and as low as our threat production is compared to high dps classes threat production if i dont stick a lot of EoB into the mix ill loose threat on a boss twards the end with geared knowlageable dps. And to emphisize my point i have to add EoB and only EoB because nothing els is effective enough. Eob will give more threat per exicution than Aggression, thats what it feels like anyway...which is suppost to be our high threat gambit. I love the warden. Played smart we can do amazing things. My problem is were forced to play dumbed down spamming eob like a mad fool. With little healing on single targets and maby half our buffs...making us just a tank with poor survivability/mitagation compared to a guard and using too much of a healers blue and attention. Good luck doing ToO light with 2 wardens now...doable but way more work than it should be...sarumon is no picknic either but at least we have time to get a nice lead on threat wile the dps kill the shadows. I like that fight because after the head start i can actualy use all my skills.

Zitat von Erasluindor

I would greatly mind giving up DC. There doesnt have to be a trade-off for everything. ​

They have the issue of making the class too powerful otherwise.