Put me under the column of "In the hardest content in the game, all people in a party has to do their jobs well and utilize many tools that are given to them in order to be successful."
I contrast this with the other column of "In the hardest content in the game, the tank has to do their job well and utilize many tools that are given to them and everyone else can do whatever they want, in order to be successful."
IMO.
This.
True, many, if not most, DPSers don't care about aggro management, and simply blame the tank (warden or guard) when they pull aggro and die. But then how is it any different for wardens (or guards) to react by saying the class needs to be changed? Isn't that just doing the same kind of buck passing?
Some folks pass the buck to the tank, and the tank passes it on to the devs.
To me, playing as part of a team means trying to make the team succeed. That means:
- Healers heal in a way that helps the DPS & tank do theirs.
- DPS dish out as much DPS as they can manage in a way that helps the healer & tank do theirs.
- Tanks work to keep mobs attention, so that Healers & damage dealers can do their job.
IMHO, better parses does not define team success - completing the objectives in the instance does.
Put me under the column of "In the hardest content in the game, all people in a party has to do their jobs well and utilize many tools that are given to them in order to be successful."
I contrast this with the other column of "In the hardest content in the game, the tank has to do their job well and utilize many tools that are given to them and everyone else can do whatever they want, in order to be successful."
IMO.
Oh, totally agree with that, and that's very important to note. I didn't manage to get that across when talking about "systems". To me a system is the whole shebang, not just me playing a Warden, or so.
English isn't my primary language, it can be hard to express what you think sometimes.
True, many, if not most, DPSers don't care about aggro management, and simply blame the tank (warden or guard) when they pull aggro and die. But then how is it any different for wardens (or guards) to react by saying the class needs to be changed? Isn't that just doing the same kind of buck passing?
Some folks pass the buck to the tank, and the tank passes it on to the devs.
To me, playing as part of a team means trying to make the team succeed. That means:
- Healers heal in a way that helps the DPS & tank do theirs.
- DPS dish out as much DPS as they can manage in a way that helps the healer & tank do theirs.
- Tanks work to keep mobs attention, so that Healers & damage dealers can do their job.
IMHO, better parses does not define team success - completing the objectives in the instance does.
Good post.
I think a question we need to ask is not 'is the Warden class underpowered or broken?'. But rather: 'why can some people do that when I can't?'.
The fact of the matter is that Wardens can and are tanking everything in the game comfortably. Sure ToO tier 2 is a right old dingdong for us, but then it's the hardest content LotRO has ever seen, and is particularly tough on tanks. We need every single member of the raid to be doing everything possible to help us out. Let's face it as tanks we're attention seekers with delusions of grandeur, but the fact remains that the tank is the single most important character in nearly any fight. So anything fellows can do to help is helping everyone.
Basically my point is that armed with the knowledge that Wardens can do certain things it should spur us on to achieve the same level, not to come on here and QQ until we get buffed up (and ruining the fun for those that have worked hard to get to that level :s ).
Yes we need to be geared to get there, but tanks in MMOs are gear reliant, and it's one of the great pleasures of being a tank that gear balance actually makes a noticable difference in different ways. It's all part of the aspiration to get better that should motivate rather than encourage looking for shortcuts. After all how do you think those of us in topend gear got there? By running and completing things while undergeared!
Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Rank 10 Warden
I ran some experiments last night with two wardens, one with 600 might, one with 1100 might ... My conclusion is that might does not make a noticable difference in threat. Also, to minimize the role of damage, I had both wardens using cheapo Bree vendor spears of 15dps.
That was pretty much the expected result with that weapon, right? 600 might and 1100 might could be a difference between 35% and 50% physical mastery damage bonus, maybe more. That percentage of a 15dps weapon means very little, but with 75 SA weapons there could be a very large damage difference on each of those SoVs, not to mention autoattacks in between. Significantly more damage means significantly more threat, which of course is why we have to worry about high-output champs and hunters in the first place.
Maybe I didn't understand the point of the test, and if that's the case then nevermind. Thanks either way for doing it, the more data we have the better.
I think there's an innate problem in discussing our issues and comparing as there aren't really any good combat analysis tools (shared) for LotRO. You say you are having absolutely no problem and you sound intelligent enough. I also have seen you posting hear in the past so I know you're not just new here. However, I do not know how much damage your best DPSers are doing, how your raid leader formulates your pulls, who else is helping dump threat on you, what tier of raids you are even doing, what type of tank are you co-tanking with, what kind of gear you are wearing... etc. And that is the short list.
It would all just be far too coincidental for all of us who are experiencing drastically different results for it just to be luck or good player/bad player BS anymore. Sadly, with no open-format analytic tools like WorldOfRaids and WorldOfLogs in Wow, I just don't know how to compare results with other Wardens.
I think you're right in that aggro is difficult to quantify in LotRO as it's quite organic, and we the players are only privvy to a certain amount of info.
I'll answer your post chronologically . Yep relatively new to these boards, but been a Warden over in the EU since the start.
In terms of the dpsers I roll with, it varies wildly (I like to PUG a certain amount, I think it makes you a much better tank). But I run with everything from yellow geared fresh 75s all the way to top-end first age maniacs. As Horus has said the difference in certain players and ease of aggro is massive. Some kick out insane dps but also require a lot of aggro management my end, others maintain the same dps with far better aggro control and understanding.
In terms of raids I run with 3 different groups all very different. One is low-key tier 1 runs, mainly for deeds and fun. Another is much more t2 challenge orientated, I haven't actually had a chance to try out the new Warden properly with them much lately as my work clashes badly with their raid schedule . Their Warden confidence is pretty low in the aftermath of trying to use the class in the early ToO t2 days, although I believe confidence is being restored as I do more and more with them of all group sizes. The more common t2 group I run with tends to avoid the challenges while trying to get dps all geared up into first agers etc, and will often do t1 runs too if alts etc need deeds.
Pulls are complex in t2, with CC and 2 tanks picking up different mobs etc, sometimes a champ tanking the burst target, usual t2 stuff really. Tier 1 is mainly just a case of run in, aggro everything and aoe-blender it all down . This is where the aggro thing remains a mystery to me, as I still find my Warden gens more aggro than any other class and don't have many problems even when high-end dpsers play lazy.
Sure sometimes I lag, or I'm tired and a bit slow, but then that's my fault not the classes, cause I know on form I can do it.
I usually tank with a Guardian, in fact in all three groups above this is generally the case. Not really through choice it's just there aren't many other top-end geared Wardens in those groups. In fact there are only 5 or 6 Wardens worth mentioning on Gilrain in terms of tanking ability that I know of, and I communicate with them all (as we Wardens should), none have expressed aggro worries to me but I'll ask.
Gear wise it's pretty standard stuff, all raid armour and jewels (2nd age weapons, no need for first agers for me, and if I did roll on one I'd make a pvp stick anyway). I rock just over 16.2k morale (dropped from 17.5k unbuffed pre U6), I have capped mitigations, 22% inc heals (Elf - shoulda been a man! although EG is amazing), 25% resist, close to capped buffed bpe etc etc. Basically I am a lot sturdier now that the changes mean we don't need such a big meatbag buffer.
Last edited by Bels_illuminati; Apr 18 2012 at 06:51 PM.
Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Rank 10 Warden
That was pretty much the expected result with that weapon, right? 600 might and 1100 might could be a difference between 35% and 50% physical mastery damage bonus, maybe more. That percentage of a 15dps weapon means very little, but with 75 SA weapons there could be a very large damage difference on each of those SoVs, not to mention autoattacks in between. Significantly more damage means significantly more threat, which of course is why we have to worry about high-output champs and hunters in the first place.
Maybe I didn't understand the point of the test, and if that's the case then nevermind. Thanks either way for doing it, the more data we have the better.
The test was seeing if might affected the magnitude of threat generated, regardless of DPS. Since might is our primary stat, I thought maybe it was affecting threat in invisible ways. It doesn't appear to be doing that. I think threat is only affected by level and traiting. That explains why it doesn't scale with gear.
Chiming in with my 2 cents, but I was running the basic Isen 3 mans and a few T2C foundry with my warden and I'm not seeing where this problem with keeping threat is coming from.
I'm running the same build now as I was after update 6 and not having any trouble at all.. realistically, I tried a few 3 mans with a second warden, and not only could he not grab aggro from me, I could pull it from him easily over the course of the runs, so I'm thinking that the tooltips for various traits are not accurate.
And on a flip side to this coin, since when is threat management the sole domain of the tank? Every single class in the game has skills specifically tailored to reduce the amount of threat they generate, but these seem to have fallen by the wayside. Every class is out to the the maximum damage in the least amount of time and if they happen to draw aggro it's the fault of the tank? Since when? Yeah your dps rk drew aggro off of you after he dropped a 9k epic conclusion.. of course he also isn't using calming verse or distracting flame so it's entirely your fault right?
Other classes need to learn to T.T less and actually play the classes they way they were intended, and that means threat management across a fellowship, not the sole province of the tank.
I did the Isen 3-man runs today and threat seemed
better than yesterday. (?) It's really puzzling. For
the most part I held everything Ok, but there was
the occasional loss of aggro. It is mysterious
because sometimes something gets away
from me that I really thought I had a good hold on.
Almost like it is just some random mechanic.
Too bad that we can not see some kind of
threat meter that would show us how far above
the next highest person on the threat table we
are. Maybe not all the time, but at least for testing
purposes it would be useful.
I did the Isen 3-man runs today and threat seemed
better than yesterday. (?) It's really puzzling. For
the most part I held everything Ok, but there was
the occasional loss of aggro. It is mysterious
because sometimes something gets away
from me that I really thought I had a good hold on.
Almost like it is just some random mechanic.
Too bad that we can not see some kind of
threat meter that would show us how far above
the next highest person on the threat table we
are. Maybe not all the time, but at least for testing
purposes it would be useful.
One of the reasons I love lotro is simply because we DON'T have ridiculous threat meters. I play the game, I do not expect the game to play me (which is exactly what happens when tanking in that other mmo).
Threat is certainly not a 'random' mechanic in lotro, it's all about understanding and feel I find. Understanding how every threat gambit works in every way (ToT, up front, aoe range, leeches, threat 'amounts' etc etc) and feel in terms of how the other classes are being played and their damage output.
Yesterday I pugged foundry t2. The first pull a couple of adds we're loose. After that pull not a single mob for the rest of the run broke loose (actually I think perhaps one at the end for a few seconds ^^). I saw instantly why I lost aggro, and which group member was responsible, so I changed my threat gen accordingly and it was fine for the rest of the run.
If threat gets buffed now, to go along with our ridiculous survivability and the fact we rarely need a healer I personally will pve tank less and less. For me the fun is being diluted every patch, we are in an insane position right now, so it's time for people to learn how to play what we have, not request further buffs to suit their needs.
Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Rank 10 Warden
Meh. Keep to a decent rotation and you shouldn't have any troubles maintaining aggro. I tanked Saruman yesterday and only lost aggro in the first phase because I forgot to toggle determination after retraiting (doh!). For the last phase I had pretty much every Saruman on me and kited them with some conviction-spamming.
Even though there IS a noticable difference in aggro, I still think that a few quick EoB's should be enough to get you on top with the aggro. After that it's all about leeching aggro off of your fellowship. Works for me at least!
Main problem with gambit mechanics is that wardens will figure out what is most effective way to do something (threat, dps, leech) and just spam gambit or two. It's something like "flavor of the update" gambit. Now we have EoB. I don't think that SoV is worth any use(still). SoD? For buffs. Not in the moment when I can toss 4 EoBs in few secs. I'm really curious what Orion will do with Aggression.
Still I think that class difficulty: waden is to high. As I can measure we have even more poor wardens. Guys are trying tank something with Onslaught spamming. Guys with tank gear and traits who insist that they are dpsers. Etc.
One of the reasons I love lotro is simply because we DON'T have ridiculous threat meters. I play the game, I do not expect the game to play me (which is exactly what happens when tanking in that other mmo).
Threat is certainly not a 'random' mechanic in lotro, it's all about understanding and feel I find.
...
Well, this reply would fit better if I were a new warden
trying to understand threat and rotations, etc.
I know that threat is not a random mechanic. I'm describing
what I think is UNUSUAL. I have been with it for a couple
years; have a fair "feel" for it.
I can not explain why threat seemed somewhat better
yesterday than the day before.
Re a Threat Meter - not saying all the time, but if it
were possible to enable it for say 20 minutes per day so
that some kind of objective measurement could be made when
something seems weird it would be helpful - a lot more
definative and objective that just saying "I feel this,
I feel that."
I can not explain why threat seemed somewhat better
yesterday than the day before.
Same here. while tanking last night for a kinny threat wasnt too hard to manage at all. Day one it was aweful with nearly the same rotations but last night was manageable. I dont see how this is even possible for two days to feel so different. Last night i had to retrait from assailment to a tanking traitset. Maybe i used a trait on day one that isnt working correctly? Ill play around with traits to see if i can find one that effects threat levels negatively.
And on a flip side to this coin, since when is threat management the sole domain of the tank? Every single class in the game has skills specifically tailored to reduce the amount of threat they generate
Small aside: hunters don't, unless they intentionally nerf their build. Haven't tried this with a warden yet post-6.1, but there isn't a guard on the server (who I've run across) who can keep aggro if I go into my normal rotation after a 5s waiting period at start. Equipping the threat book and going into endurance mode helps a little bit (as in, I pull 5-10s later), but there is no way I can even do regular dps without burgs using provoke and champs dumping their aggro on the guards as often as they can, without me pulling at some point.. Haven't tried nerfing myself yet by equipping a few yellow instead of red traits for further aggro reduction, but that seems to be roughly the only option I have left apart from autoshotting for ages.
Same here. while tanking last night for a kinny threat wasnt too hard to manage at all. Day one it was aweful with nearly the same rotations but last night was manageable. I dont see how this is even possible for two days to feel so different. Last night i had to retrait from assailment to a tanking traitset. Maybe i used a trait on day one that isnt working correctly? Ill play around with traits to see if i can find one that effects threat levels negatively.
There was a little update yesterday morning to fix some gift-box issue, but no
mention of any warden changes in it. Hmm...
YOu can use Beneath Notice, which for 10s? you have -60% perceieved threat.
You can wait for the guard to use challenge, unleash ALL your damage in that 13-17secs, then when challenge drops off, pop beneath notice and BOOM, you can *still* dps your heart out and NOT get aggro.
YOu can use Beneath Notice, which for 10s? you have -60% perceieved threat.
You can wait for the guard to use challenge, unleash ALL your damage in that 13-17secs, then when challenge drops off, pop beneath notice and BOOM, you can *still* dps your heart out and NOT get aggro.
I have a limited understanding of how hunters work, but wouldnt they still get aggro after Beneath Notice wears off? I understand that its a few seconds of -percieved threat which means that they are only temporarily showing less threat on the mob. Once it wears off their regular threat is back up. BN doesnt negate 60% of threat generated for that 10 seconds. Thats just buying a few more seconds without threat. Or do i have my understanding wrong?
I have a limited understanding of how hunters work, but wouldnt they still get aggro after Beneath Notice wears off? I understand that its a few seconds of -percieved threat which means that they are only temporarily showing less threat on the mob. Once it wears off their regular threat is back up. BN doesnt negate 60% of threat generated for that 10 seconds. Thats just buying a few more seconds without threat. Or do i have my understanding wrong?
You don't; this is correct. BN can be quite useful at times, but only when the guard was being lazy and could've generated more threat, or when a champ can dump on him or something. (Alternatively, I should get myself a pet warden running in assailment spamming conviction, but I haven't been able to convince anyone to do so yet.)
You don't; this is correct. BN can be quite useful at times, but only when the guard was being lazy and could've generated more threat, or when a champ can dump on him or something. (Alternatively, I should get myself a pet warden running in assailment spamming conviction, but I haven't been able to convince anyone to do so yet.)
A couple of weeks ago on our ToO raid we had a free slot since a few of our normal raiders werent around. I convinced the raid leader to bring an assailment warden for this reason. We put him in the group with the highest DPSers just to see how it worked. It was our first experiment with an assailment warden in raids. It actually worked pretty well. Im not sure the easy mode threat management justifies bringing a warden over another real dps class tho. The DPS never had to hold back since our warden kept conviction up most of the time and the dps really cut loose, but that probably doesnt = the dps of just bringing another champ, hunter, or burg. Maybe the assailment warden's dps will be high enough to justify it if the attack speed ever gets normalized. heres to hoping!
I'm not sure if assailment attack speed -needs- to be normalized. I was looking at tooltip numbers the other day and I noticed that Assailment damage was 10-20% higher than the equivalent Recklessness version. Here's some examples (high numbers only):
Warden's Triumph: 1312 vs 1772 +35% damage
Might Blow: 764 + 282 bleed vs. 1072 +40% damage
Unerring Strike: 795 vs. 1112 +39% damage
Onslaught: 475x3 vs 622x3 +30% damage
Combination Strike: 626x2 vs 895x2 + 274 bleed +42% damage
Spear of Virtue: 543+343 vs. 779+332 +43% MH damage, -3% light damage
This is with two second age weapons with DPS maxed (121 vs. 138) +14% assailment damage.
So it looks like Assailment has a built in damage buff to the gambits to compensate for the slower attack speed. I suspect this is the real reason why we got a gazillion new assailment gambits instead of just repurposing our existing gambits as a ranged flavor.
Harp i think the reason assailment damage is higher is because it uses the javelin as mainhand. There is no buff or anything. Javelins just have the damage of a 2h weapon.
Edit: i missed where u mentioned the dps of the weapons. My previous statement may still be relevant but idk. *shrugs*
I have a limited understanding of how hunters work, but wouldnt they still get aggro after Beneath Notice wears off? I understand that its a few seconds of -percieved threat which means that they are only temporarily showing less threat on the mob. Once it wears off their regular threat is back up. BN doesnt negate 60% of threat generated for that 10 seconds. Thats just buying a few more seconds without threat. Or do i have my understanding wrong?
You are correct, BN lowers perceived threat for 10 seconds. Improved BN decreases it for 30 seconds and give a power heal. In that time, a hunter should be able to go all out on DPS and help drop the mob before it causes any problems.
A more specific way to put it would be to say that Hunters have tools to deal with threat & keep range long enough to burn down mobs, rather than tools to "reduce" threat (other than legacies/books...)
Bards Arrow, Cry of the Predator, Dazing Blow, Rain of Thorns - All are useful tools to help buy space/time, during which mobs can be burned down by continuing to pour out the pain, rather than going to autoattack mode.
Getting yourself or someone else killed because you pulled aggro is a bad thing, but unintentionally pulling aggro isn't necessarily bad (other than pulling the Boss), nor does it mean you have to go Endurance/QS everytime a mob looks at you.
Group success is completing the objectives, not trying to get ultimate parse results to post on the forums.
The biggest difficulty to me is the constant solo/parser mindset of many players in groups, like the claims that DPS or healers in a group shouldn't have to rely on the group to perform better.
"Hey look, I got 50,000 DPS in a raid the other night. What? No, we couldn't finish it. We wiped 15 times because the Healer & Tank couldn't keep up with my uber DPS skilz."
Managing one's threat output in a group is not "nerfing" yourself, it's helping a team be better. IMO, it's not reasonable or desirable to group with folks who seem to think that the group only exists to support their quest for "personal excellence".
I did a RoF T2 run yesterday with some kinnies and some randoms.
I noticed that it was significantly harder to hold aggro after the patch and I lost aggro twice to the champ on boss fights.
It took me a few gambits to get it back, but he did come back.
Now I do not beleive this is a result of our threat being nerfed too far. I beleive that is a result of using EoB too much and getting lazy with threat skills.
It's going to take a little period of adjustment to work out the best threat rotations and the best times to use threat leeches, but the 'feel' of tanking was GREAT! I was on a knife edge most of the boss fights wondering if I was going to lose aggro, while making sure I was using my HoTs and and defensive buffs. It really brought tanking back to life for me, rather than EoB - Faceroll or precise blow spaming.
I found myself looking to skills that I have never used before consistently such as SoV.
It makes the warden feel more 'rounded' so to speak and challenging, which is after all why I chose the class in the first place.
You are correct, BN lowers perceived threat for 10 seconds. Improved BN decreases it for 30 seconds and give a power heal. In that time, a hunter should be able to go all out on DPS and help drop the mob before it causes any problems.
A more specific way to put it would be to say that Hunters have tools to deal with threat & keep range long enough to burn down mobs, rather than tools to "reduce" threat (other than legacies/books...)
Doesn't Quick Shot actually reduce total threat in Endurance? If you pull something you shouldn't have, switch stances and spam Quick Shot to help the tank catch up. No retraiting or regearing or rebuilding necessary. It's not like you would even have to stay in Endurance for the whole fight, just long enough for the tank to pick up the stray mob.
Or kill it, of course, that works too. Just saying.
Edit: vvv Using a legacy on it could fall into the "nerf the build" category in some hunters' opinions. But with or without the legacy (and even with a 20% crit chance), they can and should reduce threat if necessary. Not that it's always necessary.
Last edited by Nydorewyth; Apr 20 2012 at 07:11 PM.
Doesn't Quick Shot actually reduce total threat in Endurance? If you pull something you shouldn't have, switch stances and spam Quick Shot to help the tank catch up. No retraiting or regearing or rebuilding necessary. It's not like you would even have to stay in Endurance for the whole fight, just long enough for the tank to pick up the stray mob.
Or kill it, of course, that works too. Just saying.
Yes, there is an Endurance-Quick Shot Threat Down Rating" Pool B bow legacy.
IIRC, (disclaimer)there are two others, Induction Bow Threat Down Rating, and I think Focus Bow Threat Down Rating(?). Again, IIRC, the Induction one includes Quick Shot, and doesn't require Endurance stance.
IMO, hunters should always spare a legacy slot for threat down, but I know that many like to try to collect as many +DPS ones as they can find, even if the resultant threat issues actually reduce how much DPS they do in the long run.
Doesn't Quick Shot actually reduce total threat in Endurance? If you pull something you shouldn't have, switch stances and spam Quick Shot to help the tank catch up.
Only if you don't crit. if you do, you gain aggro again. And average crit rate is about 20%.
You are correct, BN lowers perceived threat for 10 seconds. Improved BN decreases it for 30 seconds and give a power heal. In that time, a hunter should be able to go all out on DPS and help drop the mob before it causes any problems.
A more specific way to put it would be to say that Hunters have tools to deal with threat & keep range long enough to burn down mobs, rather than tools to "reduce" threat (other than legacies/books...)
Bards Arrow, Cry of the Predator, Dazing Blow, Rain of Thorns - All are useful tools to help buy space/time, during which mobs can be burned down by continuing to pour out the pain, rather than going to autoattack mode.
IBN does not work for 30s. The PoT component works for 20s, but that's it.
CC abilities (insofar as they work, as most mobs on which I would need them are immune to them) obviously cannot be used while keeping damaging them, so I'm not sure what you're driving at. That we run away 10 meters (being mindful of not getting out of range of the healer) and get off 2-3 more shots (depending on pip availability)? Sure, that might work sometimes..
Furthermore, Bard's Arrow tends to cause mobs to run in fairly unpredictable directions, so that there is a large chance they will be hit with stray damage fairly quickly.
Now, let's compare with champs and burgs. The latter has provoke, and need not get aggro at all provided that he keeps his dmg output slightly below what the tank can handle, while adding to the tank's ability to keep aggro every second he manages to do this.
Champs get a skill that permanently removes 25% of their threat every two minutes (iirc). Hunters get a skill that does -60% perceived aggro during 10s, on a 2:30m (legacied) cooldown.
Now, let's really get into the insanity of hunter threat management. In addition to this wonderful skill (mostly used because of the PoT effect), hunters "get" up to 3 legacies, a threat reduction book for a class slot that increases power cost of all skills by 14%, endurance stance, and a class trait that at the very least costs us a more useful class trait set bonus, while giving nothing more useful in return. And only once I have at the very least the class trait, endurance stance, and -threat book slotted, can I consider dishing out a comparable amount of damage to that of champs/burgs from the get-go. But no, our damage output (gimped this way) is not that much better than champs or burgs that this seems a fair tradeoff, especially if you consider what else those two classes bring to the table. So ask yourself: why are hunters treated this way by the devs (with our class dev MIA from the hunter boards for more than a year now)?
As for your complaint that dds are no longer willing to have to wait for tanks to gain aggro: I would merely suggest that you consider the fact that most of the T2 fights are dps races all the way. Sure, that doesn't extrapolate 1:1 to normal content, but..
Group success is completing the objectives, not trying to get ultimate parse results to post on the forums.
The biggest difficulty to me is the constant solo/parser mindset of many players in groups, like the claims that DPS or healers in a group shouldn't have to rely on the group to perform better.
Managing one's threat output in a group is not "nerfing" yourself, it's helping a team be better. IMO, it's not reasonable or desirable to group with folks who seem to think that the group only exists to support their quest for "personal excellence".
Talk about jumping to conclusions and going on the attack by throwing ad hominems at your discussion partner.. Disappointing, shall we say?
I have never cared about parses in raid settings, and i cannot remember the last time I had CA enabled during one. As for "managing threat output": I have tried to make it clear above that I think it unreasonable that hunters are basically the only dd class being required to spend so many item slots, legacies and class traits on an ability that other dds get for free.
That said, this is the warden forum, and I have yet to see how well pairing up with a wrd works since the last update, as I haven't really had time to test that yet.
Now, let's compare with champs and burgs. The latter has provoke, and need not get aggro at all provided that he keeps his dmg output slightly below what the tank can handle, while adding to the tank's ability to keep aggro every second he manages to do this.
Champs get a skill that permanently removes 25% of their threat every two minutes (iirc). Hunters get a skill that does -60% perceived aggro during 10s, on a 2:30m (legacied) cooldown.
Now, let's really get into the insanity of hunter threat management. In addition to this wonderful skill (mostly used because of the PoT effect), hunters "get" up to 3 legacies, a threat reduction book for a class slot that increases power cost of all skills by 14%, endurance stance, and a class trait that at the very least costs us a more useful class trait set bonus, while giving nothing more useful in return. And only once I have at the very least the class trait, endurance stance, and -threat book slotted, can I consider dishing out a comparable amount of damage to that of champs/burgs from the get-go. But no, our damage output (gimped this way) is not that much better than champs or burgs that this seems a fair tradeoff, especially if you consider what else those two classes bring to the table. So ask yourself: why are hunters treated this way by the devs (with our class dev MIA from the hunter boards for more than a year now)?
Champs who use Ebbing Ire (possibly more often than every 2 minutes, if they have the cooldown reduction legacy or trait), and Burglars who use Provoke are foregoing the opportunity to use other abilities that would be more damaging, too.
In my opinion, the way it *should* work is that DPS classes have more to worry about than just flawless, robotic execution of the highest DPS ability rotation possible. Threat should not be their primary concern, but unless there is a possibility of pulling aggro, and potentially serious consequences for doing so, I think gameplay becomes one-dimensional.
As others have noted, with a Guardian various games are possible, like using Challenge + Beneath Notice to go nuts, then having the Guardian Engage and the Hunter switch stances to reduce threat. Guardians also have Protection to flat-out reduce another player's threat generation. Unfortunately Wardens don't have nearly that level of fine-grained control over threat.
Pairing with a Warden should be a bit easier. With all the threat leeches, the more damage you do, the more threat we can leech.
Say for example the warden is being particularly slack and has only built up 10 units worth of aggro.
2 Hunters in the group have suddenly gone DPS mad and shot up to 20 units of aggro because they switch to Str stance.
The rest of the group make up is a minstrel with 6 units of threat as he's not had to heal all that much
A LM who has been CC some mobs and also has 6 units of threat
and finally a burg who is just below the tank on 9 units of theat.
I am not entirely sure how the theat transfers work, but I have seen on some posts that it is a fixed value of threat. Say one unit per FS member.
The warden sees that two mob have peeled off and gone for the hunters because.
He pops a conviction transferring 1 unit of threat from each member.
The warden now has 15 units of threat, and the hunters have 19. Stilll a problem.
Pop another conviction from battle memory. The warden now has 20 units of threat and the hunters now have 18.
This does not take into account additional threat generated by the heal components of conviction.
Aggro under control with 2 gambits.
From my personal experience with tanking with high DPS classes, as long as you throw your threat transfers into your rotations on a semi-regular basis there is usually not a problem.
I noticed that I lose aggro to champs when I have been self buffing too much in a long fight and not generating as much threat as I should have been, but it usually only takes me 1-2 gambits to get it back.
My issue with the warden (1 year old, well geared tanked some OT, not T2 though, most everything else) atm is that EOB is to usefull so it tends to be spammmmmed all the time....i do it as well lol
EOB generates heals for us via leeches, dps`s on the mobs and generates the ?most? threat....if there is 3+ mobs (inc a boss) spamming eob is way to OP...little chance of lowering moral from max...loads of dps and threat...
I think eob need to lose some (not all) of the threat component but aggression needs to be buffed again....aggression (in det) only generates threat (i think?) so it should be the best at it....maybe make it a 5 bit gambit??
Maybe aggression could be changed so that it leeches more aggro from toons above us in aggro table (10-15% of their total??)....average amounts ( 4-6%) from those around the same lvl and very little aggro (1-3%) from those lower than us on the aggro table....that way spamming it wouldnt be so usefull, as when we get loads in front it is less powerfull but if toons got/get in front we can get it back??
That way we have a great gambit....does 1 thing well....but isnt spammable (or usefull spamming)....like eob
Champs who use Ebbing Ire (possibly more often than every 2 minutes, if they have the cooldown reduction legacy or trait), and Burglars who use Provoke are foregoing the opportunity to use other abilities that would be more damaging, too.
Sure, but at least in the case of champs this takes maybe all of two seconds, and they don't even have to waste a legacy on this skill on their main LIs if they don't want to; they can just switch just before applying the skill and switch back after. (Burgs of course do have to reapply provoke every 5s while using it.)
For hunters, otoh, equipping those items/traits means permanently (for the duration of the fight) reducing your dps output; and because all of these abilities are passive, this means that adding to your threat "management" ability doubly affects us, because we have to do so at the cost of using a more useful class item, more useful legacies, and (a) more useful trait(s). And even then it is quite possible to pull, when grouped with average tanks.
Champs who use Ebbing Ire (possibly more often than every 2 minutes, if they have the cooldown reduction legacy or trait), and Burglars who use Provoke are foregoing the opportunity to use other abilities that would be more damaging, too.
This is exactly why some **tanks** have problems holding aggro in certain groups. The notion that using 1 Ebbing Ire is somehow going to make a noticeable difference in overall DPS is absurd. That, and there are champs out there that think BF + Seeking + Remorseless, or BF + Raging, is the best way to open up a fight. It's a tanks duty to let those type of players die.
Pairing with a Warden should be a bit easier. With all the threat leeches, the more damage you do, the more threat we can leech.
It doesn't work like that. As long as each member of the fellowship has *some* threat, the amount leeched by the Warden is the same.
The relevant comparison is between the (variable) rate of threat generation by DPS, and the (fixed) rate of threat transfer by the tank.
If the Warden leeches X units of threat per second from each member, and the highest DPS member generates Y units of threat per second:
If 5*X > Y-X, (or, equivalently, 6*X > Y) the Warden holds aggro.
If 5*X < Y-X, (or, equivalently, 6*X < Y) the Warden loses aggro.
So it is absolutely incorrect to say "the more damage you do, the more threat we can leech". As long as every fellowship member has some threat, the amount of threat we can leech is fixed.
So it is absolutely incorrect to say "the more damage you do, the more threat we can leech". As long as every fellowship member has some threat, the amount of threat we can leech is fixed.
Yep. If our threat transfers were percentage-based, then that statement in quotations would be correct. The fact is, our transfers are fixed amounts.
Threat transfers are not very effective in duos. I can speak from experience, since I regularly dual box a warden. If I use his threat xfer rotation, then there is no way he can keep aggro. Right now I'm running a heavy SoV based single-target threat rotation. It works well for threat, but makes the warden a lot less hardy, since SoV doesn't grant anything besides threat.
IBN does not work for 30s. The PoT component works for 20s, but that's it.
Thanks for the info. My mistake.
Originally Posted by rannion
As for your complaint that dds are no longer willing to have to wait for tanks to gain aggro: I would merely suggest that you consider the fact that most of the T2 fights are dps races all the way. Sure, that doesn't extrapolate 1:1 to normal content, but..
Talk about jumping to conclusions and going on the attack by throwing ad hominems at your discussion partner.. Disappointing, shall we say?
I have never cared about parses in raid settings, and i cannot remember the last time I had CA enabled during one. As for "managing threat output": I have tried to make it clear above that I think it unreasonable that hunters are basically the only dd class being required to spend so many item slots, legacies and class traits on an ability that other dds get for free.
Wow. Not sure exactly why you think I was "jumping to conclusions" or making an ad-hominem attack on you, but I was neither complaining nor attacking you or anyone else.
Perhaps my post wasn't precise enough. My comment about solo mindset was intended to reflect the fact that you never need to consider threat when playing solo, but everyone does when they're playing in a group.
Maybe I'm just not looking at it from the same perspective. I can see a desire to do the highest DPS possible in DPS race instances. If that's all a player goes into, I can also see that view, although even for DPS races, I'd wonder if it's true that max DPS buffs/traits/legacies are always the only ones worth slotting. But then I tend to always be skeptical of absolute ideas like that.
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Originally Posted by danno8
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. Their Warden confidence is pretty low in the aftermath of trying to use the class in the early ToO t2 days, although I believe confidence is being restored as I do more and more with them of all group sizes. The more common t2 group I run with tends to avoid the challenges while trying to get dps all geared up into first agers etc, and will often do t1 runs too if alts etc need deeds. 
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Re: THREAT in Update 6.1
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