When we had super-Aggression, DPS classes learned that they didn't have to hold back with a warden like they did with a guardian. Now they just need to treat both tanks equally in that regard. Wait for guardians because they need to start getting block responses, and wait for wardens because we need to start stacking ToTs.
This. Aggression is a fellowship-wide responsibility. If you are losing it, its not your sole fault, but also the guy who stole it from you.
What I am saying is that when YOU try to consolidate the
"Threat Issue" into a statement like "Threat is Threat" you
are missing the point.
Content affects the threat/defense+heals balance.
Harder content affords you less time to generate threat because
you need to devote more time to defenses and self heals.
I am talking about the life-cycle of a fight, not just what
you do in a single second.
That is why I said "Think Threat in Context".
I other words, given the higher damage in end-game t2 content
do we have enough time to generate enough threat AND keep our
defense and self heals going well.
In other words, you skimmed over some of my points...
Originally Posted by horus418
To make it extremely simple for you... I always tank the same way, Threat + Self buffs + Self heals because that is my job... I didn't realize that you guys don't use buffs and heals outside of Orthanc.
I can't make it any clearer. I always max my buffs (when raiding), my threat and at least 3 self heals on top of Conviction, it doesn't matter what content it is when I'm raiding. So if I'm always doing the same thing, why does content matter?
Sarcasm aside, this is an interesting point. Guardians have not had their Big Overhaul yet, so threat for them has worked the same for a long time. However, even after the Terrible Visage fix guards are still unable to keep aggro from a warden who wants it. And since forever guards have asked groups to wait a few seconds for threat before DPS goes nuts. And since forever if DPS -didn't- wait, then as soon as the force taunts were over the big nasty mobs would turn around and possibly wipe the group.
I understand that we have to focus on buffs/heals more than guardians, but since we can still outthreat guardians even when we DO factor in buffs/heals, where are the guard threads about Orthanc being completely untankable due to losing aggro to champs and hunters? If the only difference is that groups are willing to pause for a guard but not a warden, then that's a behavioral problem not a code problem. Still a problem, but it needs to be addressed in the right place.
When we had super-Aggression, DPS classes learned that they didn't have to hold back with a warden like they did with a guardian. Now they just need to treat both tanks equally in that regard. Wait for guardians because they need to start getting block responses, and wait for wardens because we need to start stacking ToTs.
Well pointed. Only thing I have to add (not tested yet): battle preparations + new DC should allow wardens to keep good aggro right from the start. Battle preparations to start with some defense buffs and get a gambit ready for aggro before battle. DC for the 5s force attack + 30s mits God mode, while we can work more aggro/defense without much worries about auto-heals.
You can talk about any place you like as they are all relevant. In all of those places, just try not to lose aggro. It really is that simple.
I have something to say that will seem really strange... sometimes, when you group with guards, they lose aggro. Crazy right?
Horus, maybe a KEY POINT is that you have a
certain view about what is FUN for you in tanking
with a Warden. It seems that you promote, and I
guess enjoy, the idea of having to spam aggro skills
so you do not lose aggro.
That's OK - if that is what floats your boat.
From my point of view this is very much like a GUARD.
Guards can afford spending more time on aggro
because they have more natural defenses.
Some others of us expect the Warden to play differently.
Spamming threat is not so FUN for us. To have better
threat skills, so that aggro is not as much of a struggle
and then balancing that against the need to keep defense
and self heals going is FUN for us.
If the Warden had really good threat when traited for
it then you could still have YOUR aggro struggle by
simply traiting down.
Those of us who do not like spamming threat so much
could trait for good threat and spend more time on
defense/heals.
In other words, you skimmed over some of my points...
I can't make it any clearer. I always max my buffs (when raiding), my threat and at least 3 self heals on top of Conviction, it doesn't matter what content it is when I'm raiding. So if I'm always doing the same thing, why does content matter?
OH, So you are like a LOOP Track that just plays a repeating pattern!
Thanks for clarifying - got it.
Well pointed. Only thing I have to add (not tested yet): battle preparations + new DC should allow wardens to keep good aggro right from the start. Battle preparations to start with some defense buffs and get a gambit ready for aggro before battle. DC for the 5s force attack + 30s mits God mode, while we can work more aggro/defense without much worries about auto-heals.
Don't think that's a very good idea, DC is a panic button not and opening skill.
Don't think that's a very good idea, DC is a panic button not and opening skill.
Really? It would seem the 30 seconds of mit would help a lot. Are you concerned about the animation time, or the opportunity lost if you need it later?
Really? It would seem the 30 seconds of mit would help a lot. Are you concerned about the animation time, or the opportunity lost if you need it later?
All of the above. Like I said its a panic skill, also there are better ways to initiate a pull that doesnt require burning a 2.30 min CD legendary skill.
Horus, maybe a KEY POINT is that you have a
certain view about what is FUN for you in tanking
with a Warden. It seems that you promote, and I
guess enjoy, the idea of having to spam aggro skills
so you do not lose aggro.
That's OK - if that is what floats your boat.
From my point of view this is very much like a GUARD.
Guards can afford spending more time on aggro
because they have more natural defenses.
Some others of us expect the Warden to play differently.
Spamming threat is not so FUN for us. To have better
threat skills, so that aggro is not as much of a struggle
and then balancing that against the need to keep defense
and self heals going is FUN for us.
If the Warden had really good threat when traited for
it then you could still have YOUR aggro struggle by
simply traiting down.
Those of us who do not like spamming threat so much
could trait for good threat and spend more time on
defense/heals.
So you want easy mode threat so you can spam heals instead of spamming threat? Spam is still spam ...
I don't agree with your idea of needing to spam threat to keep agro, threat is part of our rotation for tanks just like dps is for dps classes. By your logic we should give dps classes automatic dps so they can spam power regen or push ups or something.
So you want easy mode threat so you can spam heals instead of spamming threat? Spam is still spam ...
I don't agree with your idea of needing to spam threat to keep agro, threat is part of our rotation for tanks just like dps is for dps classes. By your logic we should give dps classes automatic dps so they can spam power regen or push ups or something.
You should probably re-read what I wrote.
Spamming threat is not my idea.
Spamming heals is not my idea either.
I mentioned balancing my time between threat, defense and heals.
By your logic we should remove a guards mitigations and make him
execute skills to get them back. You should go and think about what
make a Warden different from a Guard. They are both tanks, but they
should play differently. Maybe you don't think so. Maybe you think the
difference is in the number of keys you press.
I do not agree with your idea of making guards just like wardens!
(I hope you get the point of that last statement and can avoid
putting words into peoples posts. :-> )
Just adding my experience from today
Grouped with average geared alts (hunter/WS mini/champ). My well geared hunter. 17kmorale, 4 thamen, 680might, 4.1k finesse. Traited 5 blue, 2 yellow (confidence, TV) Doing trees, opening with BP EoB, double builder goad, masteried EoB, bm Eob. And I was losing aggro to the champ at this point. Not sure what was going on but it felt like a constant chore of keeping enough aggro.
Really? It would seem the 30 seconds of mit would help a lot. Are you concerned about the animation time, or the opportunity lost if you need it later?
Basic problem with DC pull. You are even with all fellowship members on threat table at pull. You set off 5 sec forced taunt, 30 sec deflection while mobs hit on you and miss while disco dancing. DC animation eats up x seconds of that. Meanwhile, rest of group is building real aggro. You have whatever is left of that time (maybe 10 seconds max?) to attempt to not only catch up but also top the aggro of each individual member of the group who has been building DPS and heal aggro, to make mob stick to you. If you have nothing going to build threat, you drop to where you were when you fired off DC, making you 6 of 6 on that aggro list because everyone else has real threat.
Last edited by Darlgon; Apr 17 2012 at 07:36 PM.
I once had a cool sig,
That Turbine shortened and did not dig.
So now, all I can do is dance a silent jig.
Not meaning to point out the obvious (yeah, I am), it IS very possible that something else is broken. Just look at the history of this revamp/update/all of it.
I'm amazed that any of you are able to do instances. I just watch the dotted lines spinning around my gambit builders, wondering when, or even if, they're going to fire.
That started with U6. It got worse with yesterday's update.
I'm tired of the constant tweaks and constant bugs as well.
All of the above. Like I said its a panic skill, also there are better ways to initiate a pull that doesnt require burning a 2.30 min CD legendary skill.
Basic problem with DC pull. You are even with all fellowship members on threat table at pull. You set off 5 sec forced taunt, 30 sec deflection while mobs hit on you and miss while disco dancing. DC animation eats up x seconds of that. Meanwhile, rest of group is building real aggro. You have whatever is left of that time (maybe 10 seconds max?) to attempt to not only catch up but also top the aggro of each individual member of the group who has been building DPS and heal aggro, to make mob stick to you. If you have nothing going to build threat, you drop to where you were when you fired off DC, making you 6 of 6 on that aggro list because everyone else has real threat.
I'd be hitting it earlier for the 30 seconds of mit - not the force taunt. By the time that the mob would be arriving the animation would be finished and I would have a couple threats built to fire off. I haven't tried it, though, so I probably should not speak. ;P
Those who are having problems with aggro,buffs, defenses etc why not break it down
1=Aggro
2=Defense
3=Rotate between aggro and defense
1=Within 15-25 secs you should focus on threat. Simply this is the stage where all the mobs are on you and are confident u wont loose it.
2=Each player has their own play styles but the simpliest actions for defense is:
==Maddening Strike and dance of war: gives threat and crit buff so sum it up short
==Safeguard and Celebration of Skill: gives healing and increased block
3=Rotating between aggro and defense can be done by BM a aggro gambit and repeating the defense or refreshing the buffs.
We all know inital aggro is like a race with using masteries to get out aggro gambits as quick as possible. The only way to get better is to practice. Loosing aggro is a good thing if you learn from it. A simple rotation i use against multiple mobs in 3/6/12 mans to gain initial threat is:
1=WC (Fist and Shield)
2=EOB (Fist and Spear), (Shield and Fist), (Shield and Spear)
3=GOAD (Fist and Fist)
This will enable Potency
4=Aggression (Fist), (Shield), (Spear and Fist)
4=Aggression (Battle Memory)
This works for me but may not for others. To Help with threat i trait 5b and 2y (TV and Confidence). Confidence enables 15% chance to proc a threat buff for 15s that increases threat from damage and healing by 5%. 2y also increases the damage of my javelins by 5% which comes in handy for pulling by range.
I raid Orthanc t2 and yes we need to worry about threat more in t2 than t1 simply because if u loose it, could lead to someone dying. That being said it doesnt really effect your play. Your not gonna reduce your threat and people are not gonna reduce their dps cuz its t1.
For t2 i recommend before every pull you use battle preparation. Some dont like it because it slows the raid down but you can buff yourself while the raid is buffing up with scrolls etc
People having problems with threat is natural and common when our class has been changed in some way. In U6 some complained they could not hold aggro but later on found ways around it. Some like to rush in and others take their time to understand the changes and its impact.
With Defiant Challenge being only 2m 30s with LI and lasting for 30secs, in orthanc u can simply use it before you engage the boss and it will be available for use because every skill is reseted upon starting a boss fight in orthanc. You can then focus more on threat if you want to. Although it is useless in inital boss pulls because of saruman long speech but great if u reset it or wipe.
I haven't read the entire thread but I don't think this has been thrown out there yet. Use Battle Prep to fire off a Conviction in Assailment before the fight, and then quickly switch to Determination and start the fight. If you're quick you should be able to get off an EoB or two before that buff goes down, and it gives a nice threat lead without the dps needing to hold off at the beginning. Of course this won't work in raids, but at that point I'd say it's practical to be using DC to initiate every pull.
Idmel - R8 Defiler (Aren't I creative with names?)
I haven't read the entire thread but I don't think this has been thrown out there yet. Use Battle Prep to fire off a Conviction in Assailment before the fight, and then quickly switch to Determination and start the fight. If you're quick you should be able to get off an EoB or two before that buff goes down, and it gives a nice threat lead without the dps needing to hold off at the beginning. Of course this won't work in raids, but at that point I'd say it's practical to be using DC to initiate every pull.
This was mentioned somwhere earlier. It is a CLEVER idea, but also
a bit of a kluge. More and more I hear of people using battle prep
for initial aggro gambits. Battle prep was originally supposed to
help us get defenses up. Add in stance swapping at the start of
every pull. Also DC, a legendary, originally intended for problem
situations is now being considered as an opener.
Is this where we are now? If so, then it indicates a deficiency
in the basic threat tools.
You can talk about any place you like as they are all relevant. In all of those places, just try not to lose aggro. It really is that simple.
I have something to say that will seem really strange... sometimes, when you group with guards, they lose aggro. Crazy right?
...and sometimes when you group with guards they need to remind folks to go easy on dps and heals at the start of the fight to give him time to lock in aggro.
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.
Guards start pulls with a legendary skill? If your reffering to their force taunt Its on a 30 second cooldown for most and lasts for 13 seconds. As far as aggro is concerned their FT is superior. Ours balances out by incredible defenses for 30 seconds. But theirs is far better suited for opening every fight than ours
Those who are having problems with aggro,buffs, defenses etc why not break it down
1=Aggro
2=Defense
3=Rotate between aggro and defense
1=Within 15-25 secs you should focus on threat. Simply this is the stage where all the mobs are on you and are confident u wont loose it.
2=Each player has their own play styles but the simpliest actions for defense is:
==Maddening Strike and dance of war: gives threat and crit buff so sum it up short
==Safeguard and Celebration of Skill: gives healing and increased block
3=Rotating between aggro and defense can be done by BM a aggro gambit and repeating the defense or refreshing the buffs.
We all know inital aggro is like a race with using masteries to get out aggro gambits as quick as possible. The only way to get better is to practice. Loosing aggro is a good thing if you learn from it. A simple rotation i use against multiple mobs in 3/6/12 mans to gain initial threat is:
1=WC (Fist and Shield)
2=EOB (Fist and Spear), (Shield and Fist), (Shield and Spear)
3=GOAD (Fist and Fist)
This will enable Potency
4=Aggression (Fist), (Shield), (Spear and Fist)
4=Aggression (Battle Memory)
This works for me but may not for others. To Help with threat i trait 5b and 2y (TV and Confidence). Confidence enables 15% chance to proc a threat buff for 15s that increases threat from damage and healing by 5%. 2y also increases the damage of my javelins by 5% which comes in handy for pulling by range.
I raid Orthanc t2 and yes we need to worry about threat more in t2 than t1 simply because if u loose it, could lead to someone dying. That being said it doesnt really effect your play. Your not gonna reduce your threat and people are not gonna reduce their dps cuz its t1.
For t2 i recommend before every pull you use battle preparation. Some dont like it because it slows the raid down but you can buff yourself while the raid is buffing up with scrolls etc
People having problems with threat is natural and common when our class has been changed in some way. In U6 some complained they could not hold aggro but later on found ways around it. Some like to rush in and others take their time to understand the changes and its impact.
With Defiant Challenge being only 2m 30s with LI and lasting for 30secs, in orthanc u can simply use it before you engage the boss and it will be available for use because every skill is reseted upon starting a boss fight in orthanc. You can then focus more on threat if you want to. Although it is useless in inital boss pulls because of saruman long speech but great if u reset it or wipe.
1)threat. It is all I have time to focus on now in preliminary testing.
After bringing up in glff the issues i was having (with a heavy EoB rotation) I was ridiculed for not using PB. The same warden then said lets have an aggro race (him pb, me EoB). This was not even close. He never got aggro. He then tried PB + DoW with the same results. So EoB is clearly the top ST threat gen. So why was I losing aggro to average geared champs/hunters in LL dailies?
1)threat. It is all I have time to focus on now in preliminary testing.
After bringing up in glff the issues i was having (with a heavy EoB rotation) I was ridiculed for not using PB. The same warden then said lets have an aggro race (him pb, me EoB). This was not even close. He never got aggro. He then tried PB + DoW with the same results. So EoB is clearly the top ST threat gen. So why was I losing aggro to average geared champs/hunters in LL dailies?
I was doing LL dailies today. I pulled a tree with WC, EOB, PB, PB.
About 5 seconds later a Burg pulled the tree off me. Huh?
I got it back and held it after (just spamming SOV),
but really... what is up with that?
I was doing LL dailies today. I pulled a tree with WC, EOB, PB, PB.
About 5 seconds later a Burg pulled the tree off me. Huh?
I got it back and held it after (just spamming SOV),
but really... what is up with that?
Welcome to this month's version of warden tanking I guess. We just had to rework our T2 ToO trash strategies as I can now no longer build enough fast threat on things to tank the burndown targets.
1)threat. It is all I have time to focus on now in preliminary testing.
After bringing up in glff the issues i was having (with a heavy EoB rotation) I was ridiculed for not using PB. The same warden then said lets have an aggro race (him pb, me EoB). This was not even close. He never got aggro. He then tried PB + DoW with the same results. So EoB is clearly the top ST threat gen. So why was I losing aggro to average geared champs/hunters in LL dailies?
Don't let him bring you down, 95% chance he was drunk during that convo.
Some practical t2 ToO experience post 6.1:
I tanked t2 lightning again tonight (our kin does solo tanking, fyi), with TV and the increased fist bonus chance trait (along with 5 Blue obviously). We were running with a fairly inexperienced guard (at least for ToO) and had next to no aggro issues during the trash that wouldn't be solved by me simply playing better. It was actually nice that I could use EoB while my adds were near the Guards adds at the mid-way point in the third pull, without fear of picking up everything and getting stomped.
First try on the boss fight, I lagged a bit, and we had some unfortunate luck with the boss positioning, leading to us being behind on dps a bit, which made our decked out 1st age-wielding hunter go into overdrive. I lost aggro and we wiped.
Second try was no problem. I asked the champ in our group to dump aggro after 45 seconds, and whenever else possible after that, asked burgs to provoke whenever possible, our positioning was better, i went a little more aggro heavy on my gambits, and no one else sniffed pulling aggro. I'm confident I was harder to heal thanin earlier U6 runs, but we had 1 HoH traited cappy, 1 RK (on my side), and a mini for heals, with zero healing problems. I didn't parse the fight, but i'd estimate my self-heals were down about 30-40% and i hit static 10 4 times compared to the usual 2 I would get in our runs before 6.1.
I was a bit gloomy going into this run as I was reading these forums while we formed up, but while things certainly aren't as easy as they were before 6.1, I'm still at least as confident, if not more so tanking on my warden than guard for ToO, and I know I've still got a lot of room for improvement regarding keeping buffs up and pumping out aggro.
I'm looking forward to locks resetting so I can try out different rotations.
I still think that Warden survivability in 99.9% of 6.1 content is god-mode when well geared.
Hopefully I can get some practice in Lightning and Fire&Frost before moving into Acid and Shadow though our RKs stay DPS and our captains got LtC and Oathbreakers (or 4r3b with OB, FSB, IDOME) so this should give me a chance to test out Aggro+Heals+Buffs
I think all this "threat stuff" is next try of balancing warden around "waden player level". I think that it would be nice to be balanced around "warden level". Now you have to be really really good warden player to even think about threat, buffs, hots etc. If you are just decent, you will fail one, two things in dynamic fight.
Don't let him bring you down, 95% chance he was drunk during that convo.
Some practical t2 ToO experience post 6.1:
I tanked t2 lightning again tonight (our kin does solo tanking, fyi), with TV and the increased fist bonus chance trait (along with 5 Blue obviously). We were running with a fairly inexperienced guard (at least for ToO) and had next to no aggro issues during the trash that wouldn't be solved by me simply playing better. It was actually nice that I could use EoB while my adds were near the Guards adds at the mid-way point in the third pull, without fear of picking up everything and getting stomped.
First try on the boss fight, I lagged a bit, and we had some unfortunate luck with the boss positioning, leading to us being behind on dps a bit, which made our decked out 1st age-wielding hunter go into overdrive. I lost aggro and we wiped.
Second try was no problem. I asked the champ in our group to dump aggro after 45 seconds, and whenever else possible after that, asked burgs to provoke whenever possible, our positioning was better, i went a little more aggro heavy on my gambits, and no one else sniffed pulling aggro. I'm confident I was harder to heal thanin earlier U6 runs, but we had 1 HoH traited cappy, 1 RK (on my side), and a mini for heals, with zero healing problems. I didn't parse the fight, but i'd estimate my self-heals were down about 30-40% and i hit static 10 4 times compared to the usual 2 I would get in our runs before 6.1.
I was a bit gloomy going into this run as I was reading these forums while we formed up, but while things certainly aren't as easy as they were before 6.1, I'm still at least as confident, if not more so tanking on my warden than guard for ToO, and I know I've still got a lot of room for improvement regarding keeping buffs up and pumping out aggro.
I tanked lightning T2 last night with somewhat similar results. However, the trash was a cluster-f*** as we had been relying on me to tank the Taskmasters for the past few weeks. Admittedly this only worked because I could pop EoB on them as soon as they reached the fellowship after CC broke and they would snap to me. With EoB's diminished threat this is no longer possible. So we swapped roles (Guardian took Taskmasters I took Deep Diver digger whatevers). This worked but I am not liking the fact that we are back to having no good snap aggro gambit. EoB shined in this role post update 6. It must be a pipe dream to be able to have all the tools we need to save people when things go slightly awry and the other tank dies or we have to recover from our own deaths ho-hum.
As for the lightning T2 boss, everything went smoothly. One of our two top DPS hunters did pull aggro in the latter part of the fight and got one-shotted but it worked more like an aggro reset as he was quickly revived and there were no other casualties. I spoke with our other top dps hunter after the fight and she admitted that she held back for most of the fight due to my reduced threat capability.
It still seems silly that our highest threat gambit is an AOE ability though. EoB on a single boss feels silly even though it is the thing to do.
I tanked lightning T2 last night with somewhat similar results. However, the trash was a cluster-f*** as we had been relying on me to tank the Taskmasters for the past few weeks. Admittedly this only worked because I could pop EoB on them as soon as they reached the fellowship after CC broke and they would snap to me. With EoB's diminished threat this is no longer possible. So we swapped roles (Guardian took Taskmasters I took Deep Diver digger whatevers). This worked but I am not liking the fact that we are back to having no good snap aggro gambit. EoB shined in this role post update 6. It must be a pipe dream to be able to have all the tools we need to save people when things go slightly awry and the other tank dies or we have to recover from our own deaths ho-hum.
As for the lightning T2 boss, everything went smoothly. One of our two top DPS hunters did pull aggro in the latter part of the fight and got one-shotted but it worked more like an aggro reset as he was quickly revived and there were no other casualties. I spoke with our other top dps hunter after the fight and she admitted that she held back for most of the fight due to my reduced threat capability.
It still seems silly that our highest threat gambit is an AOE ability though. EoB on a single boss feels silly even though it is the thing to do.
EoBx2 at 15k threat each: 1875 tps. You need three EoBs to generate enough raw threat to match most fully geared damage-dealers. Aggro leeches have to be spammed back-to-back to compensate.
Suggest to hunters that they trait Stealthy Shot (a yellow trait). Blue traited hunters (Improved Fleetness) have room to accomodate you, but Red ones (Cool Burn) will be a bit more livid.
The worm population was on a steep decline in Moria with no explanation.
Orcs claim a crazy hobbit, some elf, a captain and one crazy @#$ warden were responsible but no witnesses can confirm it
Not at the same time as that would be impossible. But trash tanking (When you are assigned the first kill target) has devolved into basically Battle Prep EoB + Goad for Potency + EoB + Battle Masteried EoB. And that's for one target as it is coming to the raid group. So when our mez wears off on the next Taskmaster I need to have another EoB already queued up (preferably with one in my BM slot as well). It's just not very practical.
I ran some experiments last night with two wardens, one with 600 might, one with 1100 might. I wrote a short little macro that manually built Spear of Virtue over and over again that I launched simultaneously with both wardens. I then picked on gwibbers and giants with the following test:
10 SoVs from both wardens (high might warden has aggro)
High Might warden selects self.
Low Might warden continues to spams SoV until aggro is gained.
The low might warden only took 1 SoV or 1 SoV + 1-3 builders time to regain threat. My conclusion is that might does not make a noticable difference in threat. Also, to minimize the role of damage, I had both wardens using cheapo Bree vendor spears of 15dps. There was still some difference in damage, since SoV also gives light damage based on might, not the weapon. The high might warden also had high finesse, but I don't think that it played a significant role here since level 65 gwibbers and giants weren't blocking or resisting the attacks.
I realise it's not a major concern for the majority here but one consequence of nerfing PB has been that levelling wardens are next to useless tanking now. It's never been easy tanking at low levels as the class always only started to come together around the level 45-50 point and get awesome afterwards when the masteries became available. Even with our limited toolset PB was there to at least give us ST aggro so we could at least make a contribution.
Since the update i've done a few GB runs, a GA fortress and a couple of duo and trio skirms (between level 30 and 38). I've tried a lot of different combinations but i just can't hold aggro reliably.
Whether we like it or not perception is important. I've gone through the proving wardens are awesome thing twice during moria and when i came back to the game again i was disapointed to see people still LFFing for "tank (not warden)" or similar and debates over their value. It might give you the warm and fuzzies to defy expectations but really i cba constantly proving myself. If while levelling players see the warden failing at tanking this creates a perception of the class which carries through to the end game and like the "#######" label affects peoples opinions. It's not good for Warden's self esteem either. If i hadn't two wardens already i may think that tanking is just not what a warden is for and give up trying or, if i'd rolled it solely for the tanky aspect, give up entirely.
I admit Pb might have been a bit OP in the past but i think this nerf is too far in the other direction.
I ran some experiments last night with two wardens, one with 600 might, one with 1100 might. I wrote a short little macro that manually built Spear of Virtue over and over again that I launched simultaneously with both wardens. I then picked on gwibbers and giants with the following test:
10 SoVs from both wardens (high might warden has aggro)
High Might warden selects self.
Low Might warden continues to spams SoV until aggro is gained.
The low might warden only took 1 SoV or 1 SoV + 1-3 builders time to regain threat. My conclusion is that might does not make a noticable difference in threat. Also, to minimize the role of damage, I had both wardens using cheapo Bree vendor spears of 15dps. There was still some difference in damage, since SoV also gives light damage based on might, not the weapon. The high might warden also had high finesse, but I don't think that it played a significant role here since level 65 gwibbers and giants weren't blocking or resisting the attacks.
--Harper
Good post, my tank build has about 600 might and I never struggle with aggro.
In fact this entire thread has gone totally over my head, aggro feels the same as pre-RoI for me (I never used aggression (except to tank swap) as it was a poor mans tool and in situations with two tanks or an offtank it was a disastrous skill). I'm not sure why people are struggling so much to be honest? Perhaps over-emphasising EoB and other 'ToT' skills and not using leeches at the correct times?
I love aggro on a Warden, it s one of my absolute favourite things about the class. It's the synergy that it provides with other classes. For instance I see an LM run forward and toss AC onto the groups, he then staff sweeps and it's pretty obvious whats coming. By building Conviction and timing it to land juuuuuuust after ents hits, and then doing the same with DoW and Storm you're interacting with the group AND keeping your aggro nice and high. If during this period you spammed a couple of up-front threat skills you may well be at genuine risk of losing aggro (depending on the stage of the fight of course).
All I can really say to people is to keep at it, once you 'learn' threat it becomes so, so much easier knowing how much to gen and when. I think playing every class to cap has helped me out with this as well, as I know exactly when they are at risk of pulling threat.
Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Rank 10 Warden
Good post, my tank build has about 600 might and I never struggle with aggro.
In fact this entire thread has gone totally over my head, aggro feels the same as pre-RoI for me (I never used aggression (except to tank swap) as it was a poor mans tool and in situations with two tanks or an offtank it was a disastrous skill). I'm not sure why people are struggling so much to be honest? Perhaps over-emphasising EoB and other 'ToT' skills and not using leeches at the correct times?
I love aggro on a Warden, it s one of my absolute favourite things about the class. It's the synergy that it provides with other classes. For instance I see an LM run forward and toss AC onto the groups, he then staff sweeps and it's pretty obvious whats coming. By building Conviction and timing it to land juuuuuuust after ents hits, and then doing the same with DoW and Storm you're interacting with the group AND keeping your aggro nice and high. If during this period you spammed a couple of up-front threat skills you may well be at genuine risk of losing aggro (depending on the stage of the fight of course).
All I can really say to people is to keep at it, once you 'learn' threat it becomes so, so much easier knowing how much to gen and when. I think playing every class to cap has helped me out with this as well, as I know exactly when they are at risk of pulling threat.
I think there's an innate problem in discussing our issues and comparing as there aren't really any good combat analysis tools (shared) for LotRO. You say you are having absolutely no problem and you sound intelligent enough. I also have seen you posting hear in the past so I know you're not just new here. However, I do not know how much damage your best DPSers are doing, how your raid leader formulates your pulls, who else is helping dump threat on you, what tier of raids you are even doing, what type of tank are you co-tanking with, what kind of gear you are wearing... etc. And that is the short list.
It would all just be far too coincidental for all of us who are experiencing drastically different results for it just to be luck or good player/bad player BS anymore. Sadly, with no open-format analytic tools like WorldOfRaids and WorldOfLogs in Wow, I just don't know how to compare results with other Wardens.
I think there's an innate problem in discussing our issues and comparing as there aren't really any good combat analysis tools (shared) for LotRO. You say you are having absolutely no problem and you sound intelligent enough. I also have seen you posting hear in the past so I know you're not just new here. However, I do not know how much damage your best DPSers are doing, how your raid leader formulates your pulls, who else is helping dump threat on you, what tier of raids you are even doing, what type of tank are you co-tanking with, what kind of gear you are wearing... etc. And that is the short list.
It would all just be far too coincidental for all of us who are experiencing drastically different results for it just to be luck or good player/bad player BS anymore. Sadly, with no open-format analytic tools like WorldOfRaids and WorldOfLogs in Wow, I just don't know how to compare results with other Wardens.
The thing is, being a good DPSer isn't just about numbers, it's about managing what you are doing. You can still have lower dps than the guy who doesn't pull aggro because you use the wrong skills at the wrong time. So, showboaters and bad dpsers can and do pull aggro early in a fight, (from a guard or a warden), yet the guy who always stays under the rader can be out dpsing everybody.
I know a champ in game who named his rune "I don't ebb", I'm just saying... DPS numbers don't tell the whole story.
The thing is, being a good DPSer isn't just about numbers, it's about managing what you are doing. You can still have lower dps than the guy who doesn't pull aggro because you use the wrong skills at the wrong time. So, showboaters and bad dpsers can and do pull aggro early in a fight, (from a guard or a warden), yet the guy who always stays under the rader can be out dpsing everybody.
I know a champ in game who named his rune "I don't ebb", I'm just saying... DPS numbers don't tell the whole story.
The problem with this is that turbine has decided that many of their raid fights are now DPS races.
The problem with this is that turbine has decided that many of their raid fights are now DPS races.
The problem with what? Nowhere in my post am I implying that somebody should do lower DPS. I'm saying that smart players can do high DPS without pulling aggro.
I'm saying that smart players can do high DPS without pulling aggro.
Yes, but the problem is that damage dealers generally don't care about such things. The question is: should the game and its systems be designed around a hypothetical model where all players perform their role, e.g. players adapting to the system, or should the game and its systems adapt to the style of its players? The answer is obvious to most players I'm sure, but I'm pretty sure it's a very difficult decision for the developers.
First, I apologize for derailing the thread, but I keep seeing all these "black and white" statements (not singling you out, Horus, you just had a nice quote) and I feel pretty strongly that things aren't as simple as they might seem.
I'm not pretending to know the answer to how LotRO is modeled and what data they are using as a base for its systems et al, merely trying to show that it's not a given that the game intends to work from a seasoned gamer's point of view, like most of you all in here.
So yeah, good damage dealers know how to manage their threat. How many DDs are good ones? Pretty few in my experience, but they sure do exist. We can also claim that good tanks know how to manage their threat, and we all know there are plenty of tanks out there that aren't too good. I should know, I'm one of them. You speak a lot about balance, so what balance are we aiming for? The technical one where everything looks great on paper, or the real world one that is modelled upon actual gameplay via data mining and such? Which is the right decision? These are tough questions.
One solution is to do what Blizzard did: remove threat as an "issue" for tanks, and have them instead focus on survival mechanisms. A tank in WoW pretty much can't lose aggro if he has a basic understanding of how tanking works. Kinda like we had it before the 6.1 nerf hit, in fact. Is this a good idea? Well I think it has a lot of potential. Fighting for aggro is getting old, tanks have done that for a long time now.. Fighting for survival sounds like a more interesting strategy, which incidentally is also why I enjoy the Warden so much, due to all defensive buffs and heals. Obviously this is just my opinion, don't get all riled up because I mentioned the game that only I seem to like. Thanks.
LotRO on the other hand feels more designed to a "spec". Again I don't know this, it's merely my opinion. It feels like the developers have a clearly defined idea that they are pushing onto their player base, and players are expected to adapt and master their system as it was designed. The overall secrecy of the internal workings of the combat system supports my view, I would say. There's nothing wrong with this model, but understanding it may help in approaching the game. This game is more like a puzzle box, you poke and prod until you unravel all the mysteries with little to no aid from the box itself.. It's not a box that when you fail to open it you can go "come on, fix this already!" and an invisible hand helps you in some way. Perhaps a bad example, but you see the picture I think. On the other extreme is WoW, which is basically a game of mechanics only. There are no secrets in that game, at all. Not debating whether one is better than the other, just saying they have different design goals.
So what is my point anyway? Well, I think what we have to do is look hard at what we are given, and learn to adapt. Sure it's uncomfortable when things change, sure it can be very frustrating. I know. However, I very much doubt that the developers are intentionally designing a system that isn't just that - a system. There is balance in there, somehow, and our job is to find out how. That's what this game is about, on the low level, in my opinion.
So what is my point anyway? Well, I think what we have to do is look hard at what we are given, and learn to adapt. Sure it's uncomfortable when things change, sure it can be very frustrating. I know. However, I very much doubt that the developers are intentionally designing a system that isn't just that - a system. There is balance in there, somehow, and our job is to find out how. That's what this game is about, on the low level, in my opinion.
I hope that makes some sense. Cheers.
Put me under the column of "In the hardest content in the game, all people in a party has to do their jobs well and utilize many tools that are given to them in order to be successful."
I contrast this with the other column of "In the hardest content in the game, the tank has to do their job well and utilize many tools that are given to them and everyone else can do whatever they want, in order to be successful."
IMO.
Curiously, the evolution of the internet seems inversely proportional to the evolution of man.
Originally Posted by Nydorewyth
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You speak a lot about balance, so what balance are we aiming for? The technical one where everything looks great on paper, or the real world one that is modelled upon actual gameplay via data mining and such? Which is the right decision? These are tough questions.
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