As far as Finesse goes--Krackus has got 2k finesse and Horus has 4k. Maybe that accounts for the different experience? I really don't think this is a matter of L2P.
--Harper
To all the wardens not having much trouble with threat, what is your finesse? This could very well account for my horrid performance last night. Considering this is the first time since being a noob that ive had trouble with aggro I can say with near certainty its not a matter of L2P. I know the warden class inside out and play it on a very regular basis.
The frustration in my case has to do with the people that fail and come to the forums to preach their gospel about how the class is broken. Yet, there are wardens who have been getting the job done ALL ALONG. Now the class is stronger than ever, yet people STILL fail and blame the class instead of themselves. Whenever someone points this fact out, people like you always deflect the problem elsewhere instead of at yourself, which is where the problem truly is. For example, somebody says, "I can hold threat just fine, I don't understand the problem you are having", your typical reply, "Your dps classes don't hit hard enough", it's BS and you know it. Always an excuse... since day one...
Man, this reply sounds really pompous.
If by "stronger than ever" you mean survivable then I agree.
Our Threat was better in the past (yes, before the TV/EOB issue).
Now it is too weak, at least as observed on my toon (and others too).
Maybe you are so uber and awesome that 99% of Wardens are below
you. Maybe you have other motives. You often seem to be the guy wanting
less warden threat.
You've been on both sides on a couple occasions if I'm remembering correctly. Just b/c you have complete faith in the class (now) doesn't mean others can't discuss their frustrations, failures, and successes. I can only imagine the arguments you get into over the warden class in the Firefoot GLFF. You defend the class wholeheartedly with the same gusto you do here on there too right?
I've said it before regarding my past warden doubts. The ONLY time I had any doubts was from reading too much on the forums about other wardens having trouble and how it looked on paper when RoI hit with the dragon raid with incoming guard damage vs warden damage. I changed my mind when I found the forum talk to be just that, talk, and it wasn't as doom and gloom as I thought it would be. To sum it up, I never really had a bad warden experience that wasn't just bad luck, except for when I was first learning to tank.
As for Glff, nothing could be farther from the truth. I usually have it turned off, and have only posted there a handful of times. Besides, when it is on I usually see wardens bragging about how god mode they are and hero worship, which isn't my cup of tea. My server has always seemed very warden positive to me overall.
I was serious about asking you to tank t2 ToO to tell us how bad we are at the class and how easy it is for you. Although it seems like you think there is very little difference between the two so I'm not sure if you'll do it until you're level 85.
Also, I'm happy for all the wadens that have cleared Acid, Lightning, and Shadow - awesome job and keep up the good work. Hopefully with the rebalanced FF and Saruman fight wardens will CM them soon. They are some of the same people that inspired me @65 about wardens.
We both know you don't care what I have to say because your opinion on the forums doesn't even seem to be your acutal opinion most times, more it just seems to be an attempt to stir up drama and attention to yourself. I mean, you even flip flop a bunch in this very thread, it's hard to say exactly what you actually think. Many wardens have been tanking T2 Orthanc all along successfully, if that isn't enough to show people that the class isn't broken, nothing will.
Man, this reply sounds really pompous.
If by "stronger than ever" you mean survivable then I agree.
Our Threat was better in the past (yes, before the TV/EOB issue).
Now it is too weak, at least as observed on my toon (and others too).
Maybe you are so uber and awesome that 99% of Wardens are below
you. Maybe you have other motives. You often seem to be the guy wanting
less warden threat.
What I have to say about the class isn't reserved for me, and there is nothing pompous about what I say, especially since I've stated numerous times that I'm nobody special. I have other classes that I play that have grouped with other warden tanks that do a great job of tanking. My opinion on the class is mostly objective.
I can't think of any warden in game that I talk to is disappointed in the class, they all love it. 99% of all the warden negativity that I've experienced is in this forum, not in game. I don't know, maybe Firefoot has some kind of bug that allows the wardens to do a good job?? Even the noob wardens in my kin that don't have a full grasp of the class do very well... yeah, it's got to be a bug related to my server...
Many wardens have been tanking T2 Orthanc all along successfully, if that isn't enough to show people that the class isn't broken, nothing will.
The new threat changes havent even been around for two days now. (Im counting the TV fix)
Wonder how many wardens were running in T2 without it? Threat is weaker now than it has been since all of RoI. Dont see how the "all along" thing really matters since the changes are new.
I understand that English is not everyone's first language. Its certainly not mine so I will try to explain it differently.
Threat is not a problem.
Threat + all self heals + all self buffs seems to be a problem for me currently.
I clearly stated that I would like to hear from people that are successfully main tanking ToO T2 because that is the only area where I am currently having a problem with my Warden. I didn't say that the Warden cannot do it. I ask how are you all doing it. So far:
I have been told there are no problems.
I have been told I am a crying baby.
I have been told to L2P.
I have been told that i suck on Warden.
I have NOT been told how a Warden is successfully main tanking Acid or Shadow Tier 2 wings.
I would appreciate constructive input on that.
I have not quit the class. I have just been on the roller-coaster for so long I threw up on the guy behind me. He didn't appreciate it.
The new threat changes havent even been around for two days now. (Im counting the TV fix)
Wonder how many wardens were running in T2 without it? Threat is weaker now than it has been since all of RoI. Dont see how the "all along" thing really matters since the changes are new.
Here we go with the T2 thing again... threat is threat, T2, or T1 it doesn't matter. Remember, while YOU lost threat in RoF, many others have not. Pick a point and stick to it or realize that your credibility will suffer.
I've said it before regarding my past warden doubts. The ONLY time I had any doubts was from reading too much on the forums about other wardens having trouble and how it looked on paper when RoI hit with the dragon raid with incoming guard damage vs warden damage. I changed my mind when I found the forum talk to be just that, talk, and it wasn't as doom and gloom as I thought it would be. To sum it up, I never really had a bad warden experience that wasn't just bad luck, except for when I was first learning to tank.
As for Glff, nothing could be farther from the truth. I usually have it turned off, and have only posted there a handful of times. Besides, when it is on I usually see wardens bragging about how god mode they are and hero worship, which isn't my cup of tea. My server has always seemed very warden positive to me overall.
We both know you don't care what I have to say because your opinion on the forums doesn't even seem to be your acutal opinion most times, more it just seems to be an attempt to stir up drama and attention to yourself. I mean, you even flip flop a bunch in this very thread, it's hard to say exactly what you actually think. Many wardens have been tanking T2 Orthanc all along successfully, if that isn't enough to show people that the class isn't broken, nothing will.
Show me the flip flops please show me.
U4 - hated my warden - rolled a chank b/c I was disappointed where the class was - tanked skraids, other sup4 instances and draigoch. Disliked it, hence the chank.
U5 - tolerable - tanked all the things including ToO T2 Lightning (t1 as well)
U6 - looks good - happy with the changes - haven't tanked once (in fact have only went through the epic - No VIP and lack of interest - will be back for RoR)
I'm pretty easy to figure out. If threat is an issue, I'm sure the other two endgame wardens in my kin will let me know. Sadly the lag has been ruining their ToO t2 acid runs of late (including last night) so that is their current major gripe.
I have NOT been told how a Warden is successfully main tanking Acid or Shadow Tier 2 wings.
I would appreciate constructive input on that.
I have not quit the class. I have just been on the roller-coaster for so long I threw up on the guy behind me. He didn't appreciate it.
The reason no one has told you how is because the people calling you a cry baby, telling you that you suck, telling you L2P have not successfully done it themselves. Everything is fine for tanking foundry tho so wardens are in great shape
Here we go with the T2 thing again... threat is threat, T2, or T1 it doesn't matter. Remember, while YOU lost threat in RoF, many others have not. Pick a point and stick to it or realize that your credibility will suffer.
Horus YOU are the one who mentioned T2 this time.. If my credibility has suffered in your eyes i really dont care.
I understand that English is not everyone's first language. Its certainly not mine so I will try to explain it differently.
Threat is not a problem.
Threat + all self heals + all self buffs seems to be a problem for me currently.
I clearly stated that I would like to hear from people that are successfully main tanking ToO T2 because that is the only area where I am currently having a problem with my Warden. I didn't say that the Warden cannot do it. I ask how are you all doing it. So far:
I have been told there are no problems.
I have been told I am a crying baby.
I have been told to L2P.
I have been told that i suck on Warden.
I have NOT been told how a Warden is successfully main tanking Acid or Shadow Tier 2 wings.
I would appreciate constructive input on that.
I have not quit the class. I have just been on the roller-coaster for so long I threw up on the guy behind me. He didn't appreciate it.
It's kinda hard to have any sort of meaningful dialog with you when you choose to discount anything people have to say unless it's T2 Orthanc.
Doing logical threat tests are very simple to do, you don't have to ONLY be doing T2 Acid and Shadow wings to be valid.
Horus YOU are the one who mentioned T2 this time.. If my credibility has suffered in your eyes i really dont care.
Really?
Originally Posted by Erasluindor
The new threat changes havent even been around for two days now. (Im counting the TV fix)
Wonder how many wardens were running in T2 without it? Threat is weaker now than it has been since all of RoI. Dont see how the "all along" thing really matters since the changes are new.
Now I just don't know if you are simply trolling or what...
Now I just don't know if you are simply trolling or what...
Originally Posted by horus418
We both know you don't care what I have to say because your opinion on the forums doesn't even seem to be your acutal opinion most times, more it just seems to be an attempt to stir up drama and attention to yourself. I mean, you even flip flop a bunch in this very thread, it's hard to say exactly what you actually think. Many wardens have been tanking T2 Orthanc all along successfully, if that isn't enough to show people that the class isn't broken, nothing will.
U6 - looks good - happy with the changes - haven't tanked once (in fact have only went through the epic - No VIP and lack of interest - will be back for RoR.
If U6 looks good and you are happy with the changes, why are you here arguing in the first place.
If you haven't "TANKED ONCE", how can you be happy with the changes?
Here we go with the T2 thing again... threat is threat, T2, or T1 it doesn't matter. Remember, while YOU lost threat in RoF, many others have not. Pick a point and stick to it or realize that your credibility will suffer.
No, saying "Threat is Threat" is missing the concept.
Think "Threat in Context".
In harder content you will want to use LESS threat skills
because you will want to devote more time to defense and self heal.
So, the harder content IS the place to test this aspect of the Warden.
No, saying "Threat is Threat" is missing the concept.
Think "Threat in Context".
In harder content you will want to use LESS threat skills
because you will want to devote more time to defense and self heal.
So, the harder content IS the place to test this aspect of the Warden.
No.
Content has nothing to do with threat.
Threat has to do with how hard your group hits, not how hard the content is. Why is this concept so hard for people to understand? Before somebody says it... yes, I know there is heal aggro, which is also much easier to overcome than dps aggro.
Threat has to do with how hard your group hits, not how hard the content is. Why is this concept so hard for people to understand? Before somebody says it... yes, I know there is heal aggro, which is also much easier to overcome than dps aggro.
He is saying you need to spend more time on defense in ToO T2 which leaves less time for Threat. Not* that threat values change depending on what content your running. Less time spent on threat gen = less threat. I dont think he is confused.
If U6 looks good and you are happy with the changes, why are you here arguing in the first place.
If you haven't "TANKED ONCE", why are you here arguing in the first place?
I think wardens are fine. Haven't said much about them being broken, certainly not past u6. If threat is an issue now I'm sure it will be adjusted. There were major issues with the class in u4 and u5, IMO. U6 addressed quite a few of those.
SWTOR - lackluster instances in u5 dropped vip. I played my guard for an hour last night if it makes you feel better about my ability to post on a public game forum.
Originally Posted by horus418
Let's be clear, threat is threat, it doesn't matter what content you are running. Don't put yourself up on some pedestal because you are doing T2 whatever, that means 0 when we talk about threat.
I jumped into this thread b/c I disagree with the quote above. I think difficulty of content is going to make a difference in the amount of threat you can generate. If content requires you to be fully self-buffed you're going to generate less threat than if you didn't have to worry about it. More buffs reduces potential threat gen and more threat reduces self-buffs/hots. To me the class play-style has always been a management of those two conflicting duties - stay alive vs maintain threat. I don't have to tank RoF to see that.
Threat has to do with how hard your group hits, not how hard the content is. Why is this concept so hard for people to understand? Before somebody says it... yes, I know there is heal aggro, which is also much easier to overcome than dps aggro.
Wow.. way to contradict yourself in your own post. Lets run that..
T2 has mobs with more morale and hit harder than T1. That means:
DPS puts out more DPS on the mob.
Mobs put out more DPS and so Healers generate more heal aggro.
Therefore, tank has to generate more aggro to overcome the more heal and damage aggro.
So.. yeah..
/facepalm
Last edited by Darlgon; Apr 17 2012 at 03:44 PM.
I once had a cool sig,
That Turbine shortened and did not dig.
So now, all I can do is dance a silent jig.
He is saying you need to spend more time on defense in ToO T2 which leaves less time for Threat. Not* that threat values change depending on what content your running. Less time spent on threat gen = less threat. I dont think he is confused.
Originally Posted by Ravenstride
Threat + Self buffs + Self heals
i need a rotation for that that outputs around 3K threat per second.
can you recommend one plz?
To make it extremely simple for you... I always tank the same way, Threat + Self buffs + Self heals because that is my job... I didn't realize that you guys don't use buffs and heals outside of Orthanc.
Erasluindor, what is your excuse then for losing aggro in RoF? I mean, you weren't buffing and healing, nothing but threat and you couldn't do it? There you go with T2 again.
To make it extremely simple for you... I always tank the same way, Threat + Self buffs + Self heals because that is my job... I didn't realize that you guys don't use buffs and heals outside of Orthanc.
Erasluindor, what is your excuse then for losing aggro in RoF? I mean, you weren't buffing and healing, nothing but threat and you couldn't do it?
My excuse. Hmm.. A viable one seems to be that i tanked it mear hours after a threat change and had not magically adjusted to the new values. Believe it or not the devs didnt program it into my head. Just the game. I tanked when U6 came out without the TV bug but then got very used to using it. So yeah i kept up max aggro and defensive buffs. Once i get used to the new changes maybe i can hold aggro again. But the work/reward seems to get lower so idk if i want to anymore. Now its not possible to keep up the lvl of threat + defense i had before this update. God forbid that i dont know exactly how to handle the changed threat on my FIRST RUN since the change.
My excuse. Hmm.. A viable one seems to be that i tanked it mear hours after a threat change and had not magically adjusted to the new values. Believe it or not the devs didnt program it into my head. Just the game. I tanked when U6 came out without the TV bug but then got very used to using it. So yeah i kept up max aggro and defensive buffs. Once i get used to the new changes maybe i can hold aggro again. But the work/reward seems to get lower so idk if i want to anymore. Now its not possible to keep up the lvl of threat + defense i had before this update. God forbid that i dont know exactly how to handle the changed threat on my FIRST RUN since the change.
So, it's not as bad as you made it out to be. Got it. TY for the clarification. Meanwhile other warden ran the same instance with no hassle on their first try. Like I've been saying all along, it's not the class. I'm glad you decided to adapt.
I kind of agree with Horus here that threat is threat. You put out the same amount with the same rotations and stats whether you are tanking Bogbereth or Saruman. The difference is that players will tend to go crazier with DPS against high morale scary mobs in T2 instances. As I posted a ways back, "when did it become the tanks job to manage --all-- threat?" This really needs to be a fellowship wide effort. If DPSers are outDPSing a wardens threat, its their job to manage that, wardens are not broken.
On the subject of Defenses vs. Threat. Most of our defenses _are_ also threat. The only ones I can think of are:
Spear of Virtue Line
Aggression
As long as you are sticking to Surety of Death/Dance of War/Exultation of Battle/CoS lines you should be generating threat -and- keeping up defenses. If you are spending overly much time grabbing Wall of STeel... you already know my opinion of that tactic.
But I'm still interested in this idea of fellowships out-DPSing threat of wardens. I guess the problem is that 1st age weapons will ramp up DPS more than they ramp up threat. The only fix I can think to counter that via game mechanics is to stack might and finesse. You'll have a smaller morale pool, but a larger threat generation. But really the problem here is to make aggro a whole-fellowship job. That's the way its worked for years, and I just don't get this latest wave of reports on pulling threat off the tank and blaming the tank.
i need a rotation for that that outputs around 3K threat per second.
can you recommend one plz?
Keep double eob up all the time(masteried + potency can do this in less then 5 sec) that alone will give you 2k threat/sec combined with double DoW, conviction, and double aggression(these can be done in ~10 sec if done right) every 20-3 0 sec should easily put you at 3k threat/sec. Don't use SoV, its bad. SoV is only viable in getting some threat first up, PB is much superior if you want to keep a lead.
My basic rotation is:
BM EoB
Defensive Strike
Double EoB
Goad
Double DoW (at this point you should have a significant threat lead)
Defensive Strike/Deft Strike
Double Celebration of Skill
Conviction if we need AoE heals else Goad then Double Aggression
At this point if you dont have an agro lock then you must have ppl doing like 4k dps which is not possible or you're not in determination or something dumb like that. After this its just about keep the lead to which I basically do this:
t
Defensive Strike
Double Aggression
Celebration of Skill for refresh
DoW for refresh
Conviction
WC/WoS or more Restoration etc
You can swap out double aggression for Double EoB if you have new incoming mobs.
Honestly I find myself having free time every 2 rotations so I stance dance for hitting conviction because threat negation by assailment conviction >>>>> then threat leach in determination. Also if you're raiding be asked to put in the group with the hardest hitting guys because negating their threat will help reduce the overall threat you'd have to generate post death.
Just basically watch your buffs and go leech leech, buff, heal, leech/threat, buff/heal.
I dont bother with self buffs and self heals in most content. I just dont seem to need it. The damage is so low that my healer + captain keep me at <80% morale at all times.
in fact in the full helegrod clear we just did i tested out chain pulling 10+ mobs continuously and not going out of combat until each boss (practically. had 1 or 2 dead spots in the 3 wings+thorog) buy doing nothing more than spamming EoB. It is still our best threat generator. I just wanted to see if I need self heals / buffs. I did not.
most people seem to think that Giants and Mammoths in there do a fair bit of damage. Maybe they were nerfed cause as I said I didnt seem to notice it when lots of them were wailing on me.
When we got to thorog I have a bit of time to play. I tried a Self Heals - Self Buffs - Threat rotation.
2x SoD
2x DoW
2x CoS
with BM. That is what I find the quickest way to get all my buffs up. by the time I got about half way through the Hunter pulled aggro off me and I had to get back to Threat. PB didnt peel Thorog off him so I 2xEoB which worked.
I then tried a self heal round
212
21[21]
2[12]12
at which point i lost aggro again and had to move back to threat.
now you might say well thats not a problem. as soon as you lost aggro you switched back to threat and got it back! to which I would mention that in ToO T2 if I lost aggro for a second a nasty aoe mob turns to the group behind it and causes much more damage than the healers would like to deal with. But I wont because apparently people dont like it when I talk about Orthanc T2
Last edited by Ravenstride; Apr 17 2012 at 04:10 PM.
now you might say well thats not a problem. as soon as you lost aggro you switched back to threat and got it back! to which I would mention that in ToO T2 if I lost aggro for a second a nasty aoe mob turns to the group behind it and causes much more damage than the healers would like to deal with. But I wont because apparently people dont like it when I talk about Orthanc T2
You can talk about any place you like as they are all relevant. In all of those places, just try not to lose aggro. It really is that simple.
I have something to say that will seem really strange... sometimes, when you group with guards, they lose aggro. Crazy right?
Keep double eob up all the time(masteried + potency can do this in less then 5 sec) that alone will give you 2k threat/sec combined with double DoW, conviction, and double aggression(these can be done in ~10 sec if done right) every 20-3 0 sec should easily put you at 3k threat/sec. Don't use SoV, its bad. SoV is only viable in getting some threat first up, PB is much superior if you want to keep a lead.
My basic rotation is:
BM EoB
Defensive Strike
Double EoB
Goad
Double DoW (at this point you should have a significant threat lead)
Defensive Strike/Deft Strike
Double Celebration of Skill
Conviction if we need AoE heals else Goad then Double Aggression
At this point if you dont have an agro lock then you must have ppl doing like 4k dps which is not possible or you're not in determination or something dumb like that. After this its just about keep the lead to which I basically do this:
t
Defensive Strike
Double Aggression
Celebration of Skill for refresh
DoW for refresh
Conviction
WC/WoS or more Restoration etc
You can swap out double aggression for Double EoB if you have new incoming mobs.
Honestly I find myself having free time every 2 rotations so I stance dance for hitting conviction because threat negation by assailment conviction >>>>> then threat leach in determination. Also if you're raiding be asked to put in the group with the hardest hitting guys because negating their threat will help reduce the overall threat you'd have to generate post death.
Just basically watch your buffs and go leech leech, buff, heal, leech/threat, buff/heal.
Thank you.
As I was writing my previous post I realized that next time I will try to dove-tail the components better. I perhaps focused too much on one at a time. I dont know if that would work but I am glad I have something to try now.
The reason I focused so much on threat was because things were being pulled off me fairly easily once I stopped outputting it heavily. If felt like i didnt have time for even one or two other things.
Last edited by Ravenstride; Apr 17 2012 at 04:16 PM.
When we got to thorog I have a bit of time to play. I tried a Self Heals - Self Buffs - Threat rotation.
2x SoD
2x DoW
2x CoS
with BM. That is what I find the quickest way to get all my buffs up. by the time I got about half way through the Hunter pulled aggro off me and I had to get back to Threat. PB didnt peel Thorog off him so I 2xEoB which worked.
I then tried a self heal round
212
21[21]
2[12]12
This is your problem right here, you can't do threat threat threat then buff buff buff because wardens depend heavily on leeches(at least I do and seems to get the job done) and in the beginning there isnt much to leech. You should try doing a 2:1 threat to buff rotation. Threat and buffs are now tightly tied together and that should reflect in your rotation as well.
Also you were using SoD when there were a huge number of mobs? Seems a waste of time... 2xAgression would have been faster and much more effective.
This is your problem right here, you can't do threat threat threat then buff buff buff because wardens depend heavily on leeches(at least I do and seems to get the job done) and in the beginning there isnt much to leech. You should try doing a 2:1 threat to buff rotation. Threat and buffs are now tightly tied together and that should reflect in your rotation as well.
Also you were using SoD when there were a huge number of mobs? Seems a waste of time... 2xAgression would have been faster and much more effective.
See post above. Thanks again
2xSoD gives a nice long Crit defence buff. As well as a bit of Phys and Tact mits but thats less relevant.
Threat has to do with how hard your group hits, not how hard the content is. Why is this concept so hard for people to understand? Before somebody says it... yes, I know there is heal aggro, which is also much easier to overcome than dps aggro.
Horus,
Yes, from a math point of view threat=threat.
What I am saying is that when YOU try to consolidate the
"Threat Issue" into a statement like "Threat is Threat" you
are missing the point.
Content affects the threat/defense+heals balance.
Harder content affords you less time to generate threat because
you need to devote more time to defenses and self heals.
I am talking about the life-cycle of a fight, not just what
you do in a single second.
That is why I said "Think Threat in Context".
I other words, given the higher damage in end-game t2 content
do we have enough time to generate enough threat AND keep our
defense and self heals going well.
Sometimes, when you group with guards, they lose aggro. Crazy right?
Sarcasm aside, this is an interesting point. Guardians have not had their Big Overhaul yet, so threat for them has worked the same for a long time. However, even after the Terrible Visage fix guards are still unable to keep aggro from a warden who wants it. And since forever guards have asked groups to wait a few seconds for threat before DPS goes nuts. And since forever if DPS -didn't- wait, then as soon as the force taunts were over the big nasty mobs would turn around and possibly wipe the group.
I understand that we have to focus on buffs/heals more than guardians, but since we can still outthreat guardians even when we DO factor in buffs/heals, where are the guard threads about Orthanc being completely untankable due to losing aggro to champs and hunters? If the only difference is that groups are willing to pause for a guard but not a warden, then that's a behavioral problem not a code problem. Still a problem, but it needs to be addressed in the right place.
When we had super-Aggression, DPS classes learned that they didn't have to hold back with a warden like they did with a guardian. Now they just need to treat both tanks equally in that regard. Wait for guardians because they need to start getting block responses, and wait for wardens because we need to start stacking ToTs.
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Originally Posted by Harperelle
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so wardens are in great shape
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