I still don't see what the problem is. You should have your defenses up because of BPrep, so all you need to do is spam nothing but threat in the beginning. If it's only a 10 second fight, who cares if somebody pulls aggro at second 8, or are you exaggerating a little bit?
As I said, with BP all you need to do is worry about threat for the first 30 seconds, at least. After that, you'll have enough raw threat build up to start cycling defense gambits, most of which have threat attached to them.
Funny, you are the one who brought EoB up and said it was your crutch...
edit: There are no fights in Orthanc that require aggro-swapping. I got no issues with that yet. If I wanted to tank OD Fear wing though that might be a different story.
Like I said in my last post, I've been swapping aggro since moria, this includes OD, on level. I tank swapped then with ease, I do the same now. If I can do it, you can to. I'm nobody special, we play the same class.
Please find a group and run T2 Acid wing just to see the first trash pull. It will go a long way to explain what I am talking about without me trying to convince you that Wardens need easy mode aggro to focus on other things.
I'll try though:
I need to hold aggro of about 5 mobs simultaneously. The incoming damage is overall quite high. The fight lasts around 3-4 minutes so self heals and self buffs need to be refreshed. The group will focus on 1 mob at a time and nuke it down. There will be AoE damage dealers so other mobs will get hit for big numbers as well. Each mob, once focused on, would live for 10-15 seconds and in that time it will be under spike damage. I need to keep ahead of that so 2-3K threat is borderline. 3-4K is safezone.
I, personally, did not take offence. I come to the forums to learn and grow so I really meant those words.
Our kin successfully clears those wings with 1 Guardian tanking while the champ usually picks up the current DPS target while Burgs and LMs mezz things.
It might not be the Turbine approved way of doing things but it works with a Guardian. I am trying to understand what I need to do to make it work with a Warden.
It might just be that new DC is the way to go. The short CD means it will be available or near enough at the start of each pull. I'll have to try it out I guess.
In your 1st post you reported having a hard time holding aggro on LLD, which I didn't with 3 hunters not holding back (even brust dpsing after the focus bonus) and the mini was dpsing. I know LLD is no challenge, but it is a viable aggro test. A bad aggro situation on LLD will be a hunter pulling after the initial dps brust.
Anyway, u are by far more experienced then me and I will wait to see how things will go after reset.
I am curious about your kin guard solo tanking ToO T2, was he kite tanking or what? I could not imagine even a guard stand tanking Acid or Shadow T2 trash, unless u are killing 4 or more targets before the initial CC is over.
Let's be clear, threat is threat, it doesn't matter what content you are running. Don't put yourself up on some pedestal because you are doing T2 whatever, that means 0 when we talk about threat.
False: more dps required = more threat needed = less time for other buffs
In your 1st post you reported having a hard time holding aggro on LLD, which I didn't with 3 hunters not holding back (even brust dpsing after the focus bonus) and the mini was dpsing. I know LLD is no challenge, but it is a viable aggro test. A bad aggro situation on LLD will be a hunter pulling after the initial dps brust.
Anyway, u are by far more experienced then me and I will wait to see how things will go after reset.
I am curious about your kin guard solo tanking ToO T2, was he kite tanking or what? I could not imagine even a guard stand tanking Acid or Shadow T2 trash, unless u are killing 4 or more targets before the initial CC is over.
I can't talk too much about our tactics but yes we kill stuff very quickly. Enough that by the time CC'd mobs wake up the stress on the Guard is back to a level where he can pick them up as well. You dont have to kill them all. Just as many as you had CC'd in the first place.
LLD it was the RK that was pulling things off me with big crits. Coupled with RK reduction in threat maintenance I basically had to focus on generating threat for the first 50% of a mobs health to make sure it stayed on me for the duration. At which point i just turned my back on the mob and did nothing to test the aggro lead and in 9/10 cases it stayed on me until it was dead. That also shows that against Titans in LG i didn't need extra self-heals / buffs to survive. At least not much.
In your 1st post you reported having a hard time holding aggro on LLD, which I didn't with 3 hunters not holding back (even brust dpsing after the focus bonus) and the mini was dpsing. I know LLD is no challenge, but it is a viable aggro test. A bad aggro situation on LLD will be a hunter pulling after the initial dps brust.
Anyway, u are by far more experienced then me and I will wait to see how things will go after reset.
I am curious about your kin guard solo tanking ToO T2, was he kite tanking or what? I could not imagine even a guard stand tanking Acid or Shadow T2 trash, unless u are killing 4 or more targets before the initial CC is over.
You just described any pull we normally do when CC is involved. We still nuke single targets as fast as they go. T2 or T1, damage is the same, threat is the same. You don't get DPS boost from doing T2 content.
Originally Posted by Mysterion
False: more dps required = more threat needed = less time for other buffs
Wrong. People will go all out with DPS whenever the situation arises. People don't throttle back DPS on a T1 instance. Nice try though... not really.
You just described any pull we normally do when CC is involved. We still nuke single targets as fast as they go. T2 or T1, damage is the same, threat is the same. You don't get DPS boost from doing T2 content.
Wrong. People will go all out with DPS whenever the situation arises. People don't throttle back DPS on a T1 instance. Nice try though... not really.
First off, thanks for trying to take on a whole thread yourself. I'm enjoying this thread very much.
Groups that run t2 probably have higher dps than groups that run t1...better players...better gear. Isn't t1 faceroll easy, those might be your words, I'm too lazy to look up a direct quote. People probably aren't popping DP perks, proper group makeup, store buffs, tokens scrolls, cooldowns on trash in t1 - it isn't necessary. I really think a lot of things would get cleared up if you just facerolled t2 and tell us how to do it the right way.
Sorry you didn't like my post. If you give me rep with an explanation of how I can improve them for you in the future, I'd appreciate it.
I am finding it hard to keep up my self healsandself buffswhile having to keep aggro off of dps classes with 30K+ of Physical / Tactical Mastery and fully pimped out Level 75 gear and First Age weapons / class items.
Regardless of what instance, tier level or situation we are in.
Wrong. People will go all out with DPS whenever the situation arises. People don't throttle back DPS on a T1 instance. Nice try though... not really.
Actually it was a nice try. People running t2 are usually better players and have better gear. Usually ppl buff out harder w t2 ToO than T2 RoF using DP and having plenty of buff classes around that may not be needed in 6 mans. Sorry but Myst hit it right on the spot.
*A new title has been placed upon you. From now on you shall be known as Horus- Defender of the Defenseless*
Edit: should also add that mobs in T2 ToO have higher morale than T2 foundry trash. More overall dps is required so more overall threat is required which leaves longer periods of time that you are taking a beating with minimal heals and buffs up to stay on top of the aggro charts if you can at all anymore.
Last edited by Erasluindor; Apr 17 2012 at 11:10 AM.
Actually it was a nice try. People running t2 are usually better players and have better gear. Usually ppl buff out harder w t2 ToO than T2 RoF using DP and having plenty of buff classes around that may not be needed in 6 mans. Sorry but Myst hit it right on the spot.
*A new title has been placed upon you. From now on you shall be known as Horus- Defender of the Defenseless*
Oh, I see, you guys must do something like this then... "Guys, this is only a T1 instance, hold back",.
"A new title has been placed upon you. From now on you shall be known simply as, Quitter",.
Oh, I see, you guys must do something like this then... "Guys, this is only a T1 instance, hold back",.
"A new title has been placed upon you. From now on you shall be known simply as, Quitter",.
If your people waist DP for t1 stuff then thats all good. Mine dont. And yes i have no problem quitting a class that has been in an experimental fail flux ever since RoI. Pointless changes have made us simply less effective than our guardian counterparts. Warden is an advanced class but that should not mean less effective. So yeah. Screw it. I am a quitter. At least until threat is fixed and Im no longer fighting an uphill battle to be a viable tank.
And I really did give up so easy. I stuck around until well after update 6 which is alot more than most ppl did. Im sorry to the community for finally after all these months giving up on a class that will never have parity to the heavies. I tried to hold out but i said a long time ago that if U6 didnt fix everything I would give up and middle earth would lose another warden. U6 came full of bugs and other #### that couldnt be worked out but i stuck around for another update longer than i said i would. Now things just seem like a new set of fail. Tired of waiting to be fixed.
Last edited by Erasluindor; Apr 17 2012 at 11:17 AM.
If your people waist DP for t1 stuff then thats all good. Mine dont. And yes i have no problem quitting a class that has been in an experimental fail flux ever since RoI. Pointless changes have made us simply less effective than our guardian counterparts. Warden is an advanced class but that should not mean less effective. So yeah. Screw it. I am a quitter. At least until threat is fixed and Im no longer fighting an uphill battle to be a viable tank.
And I really did give up so easy. I stuck around until well after update 6 which is alot more than most ppl did. Im sorry to the community for finally after all these months giving up on a class that will never have parity to the heavies. I tried to hold out but i said a long time ago that if U6 didnt fix everything I would give up and middle earth would lose another warden. U6 came full of bugs and other #### that couldnt be worked out but i stuck around for another update longer than i said i would. Now things just seem like a new set of fail. Tired of waiting to be fixed.
Yes, some people I run with use DP buffs for T1. Lots of them are heavy pvpers with more than half a million DP, so what?
Did the champ that you couldn't hold aggro off of in RoF use DP?? Why are you arguing raid mechanics when you can't even hold aggro in a 6 man?
Oh, I see, you guys must do something like this then... "Guys, this is only a T1 instance, hold back",.
"A new title has been placed upon you. From now on you shall be known simply as, Quitter",.
Nah, people capable of t2 probably just don't run t1 instances with the same effort or at all. That is my experience at least. Possible other reasons for lower DPS that I've witnessed, player is drunk, they are watching tv/movie/sports, they are on alts, or they are running undermanned. It just doesn't require that much skill, attention or coordination to complete the content on t1. I guess the people I play with don't get all jazzed up about t1, if the hardcore run it hardcore regardless of tier then it is probably less or an issue what tier it is. We raz eachother on TS instead of paying attention to what is going on and are still successful...even without complete concentration. That doesn't really happen on t2 b/c its harder and to succeed we have to try hard and pay attention.
Why do you care what classes people choose to play? Nice comeback though....
You'll like this gif
I like it and this one too.
"A new title has been placed upon me. From now on I shall be known simply as, GIFMASTER"
Yes, some people I run with use DP buffs for T1. Lots of them are heavy pvpers with more than half a million DP, so what?
Did the champ that you couldn't hold aggro off of in RoF use DP?? Why are you arguing raid mechanics when you can't even hold aggro in a 6 man?
I used to be able to hold aggro in a T2 raid. I have done ToO raiding on t2 so i can speak about the mechanics from it. Just because a recent change left me spinning in a daze does not invalidate what i say.
Nah, people capable of t2 probably just don't run t1 instances with the same effort or at all. That is my experience at least. Possible other reasons for lower DPS that I've witnessed, player is drunk, they are watching tv/movie/sports, they are on alts, or they are running undermanned. It just doesn't require that much skill, attention or coordination to complete the content on t1. I guess the people I play with don't get all jazzed up about t1, if the hardcore run it hardcore regardless of tier then it is probably less or an issue what tier it is. We raz eachother on TS instead of paying attention to what is going on and are still successful...even without complete concentration. That doesn't really happen on t2 b/c its harder and to succeed we have to try hard and pay attention.
So we can add clairvoyant/seer to resident forum troll to your resume? It's cool that you know what everybody is doing while they play lotro. Remember, by your own admission, we are not to take you seriously...
I used to be able to hold aggro in a T2 raid. I have done ToO raiding on t2 so i can speak about the mechanics from it. Just because a recent change left me spinning in a daze does not invalidate what i say.
If you can attempt to discredit me because I didn't run ToO T2 since yesterday, why can't I do the same to you because you can't hold aggro in RoF?
If you can attempt to discredit me because I didn't run ToO T2 since yesterday, why can't I do the same to you because you can't hold aggro in RoF?
I discredited you for not running ToO t2? I mentioned running it. Never once did i even say you didnt run it. Fact is i dont know if you have or not. At one point you mentioned never running it but that was along time ago. Things change.
... it's all about staying active with threat, never stop building.
So you think proper warden game-play SHOULD mostly be about constantly firing skills to
try to get/keep aggro? Do you think this is what a warden should be?
Originally Posted by horus418
Well, if you say you could hold threat without TV before, why wouldn't you be able to now? Unless something else is broken, doing the same thing now that you did then should still keep you in the "i could", category, right?
Isn't this just dismissing the problem by restating it back to the poster as a question?
So we can add clairvoyant/seer to resident forum troll to your resume? It's cool that you know what everybody is doing while they play lotro. Remember, by your own admission, we are not to take you seriously...
Is it weird that I know what people are doing while gaming? I know what people are doing b/c we talk about it while we're playing. I generally know who is drunk or holding their kid or watching the game. Keep in mind I don't pug any more and play with the same people. I don't think it takes special powers to know your friends behaviors or mannerisms when they are taking something seriously or not.
I'm cool with being taken seriously or not taken seriously, it is not one of my special powers to control others opinions of my posts. I wouldn't take me seriously though - that would only lead to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. As we all know, fear is the path to the dark-side.
I just want to say that so many of you are crying way too much. The warden is not in an optimal spot but it is still very doable to tank even against 1st agers. To do this, you will have to relearn your rotation, really pay attention to threat, or stop playing the warden until it is easier for those that are having trouble.
/thread
Also, I'm not the best warden even but am offering any help to those that seek it.
I discredited you for not running ToO t2? I mentioned running it. Never once did i even say you didnt run it. Fact is i dont know if you have or not. At one point you mentioned never running it but that was along time ago. Things change.
I thought you were implying that what a warden can and can not do threat wise, should only be measured by T2 Orthanc. Who is running what is irrelevant, threat is threat, either you can hold it or you can't.
Originally Posted by JLotro
So you think proper warden game-play SHOULD mostly be about constantly firing skills to
try to get/keep aggro? Do you think this is what a warden should be?
I think proper warden game play should involve doing what it takes to get the job done. If you want to sit back and do nothing while the other tank has aggro, that's fine, just don't complain about not being able to tank swap.
Isn't this just dismissing the problem by restating it back to the poster as a question?
It's asking the player what he is doing wrong. If he claims he didn't need TV to hold aggro before, he should be able to now, with it.
Since this class was invented, people have been complaining about the class instead of adapting. So what we've always had was people complaining that the job couldn't get done, while others have been doing the job all along. If one can and the other can't, the problem lies with the person who can't. We all have the same tools at our fingertips, if you fail, reassess because others are not.
I thought you were implying that what a warden can and can not do threat wise, should only be measured by T2 Orthanc. Who is running what is irrelevant, threat is threat, either you can hold it or you can't.
Nope. I just said it is harder to hold threat in ToO t2. Never said that was the only measure. If you can generate enough aggro to hold off ppl using DP perks in t1 foundry that are geared/buffed the same as T2 ToO your in good shape.
Originally Posted by horus418
I think proper warden game play should involve doing what it takes to get the job done. If you want to sit back and do nothing while the other tank has aggro, that's fine, just don't complain about not being able to tank swap.
I Never said i just sit back and try to aggro hog it all at once. I DO build aggro constantly, but i try to hold off a bit so as not to pull off the other tank too early. A big threat gen/transfer skill is needed to make this transition go smoothly. The idea that i have to stay one step behind the invisible threat meter that i cannot see is ########. You never know how close your coming. A big skill lets you safely build aggro without fear of pulling off the other tank then take it back when you need it.
It's asking the player what he is doing wrong. If he claims he didn't need TV to hold aggro before, he should be able to now, with it.
Originally Posted by horus418
Since this class was invented, people have been complaining about the class instead of adapting. So what we've always had was people complaining that the job couldn't get done, while others have been doing the job all along. If one can and the other can't, the problem lies with the person who can't. We all have the same tools at our fingertips, if you fail, reassess because others are not.
I have adapted to every change until im blue in the face. Each change brings something good and something bad. This is the first time in forever ive had trouble with aggro. I dont have time for buffs and heals. The balance between threat and defense has gotten so tight its unbelievable. The reason people complain that the class cant get the job done is because it really does lack the tools to get it done efficiently. Doesnt mean its impossible but it is a pain to be a lesser tank just due to not having the same tools that so effectively work on other classes. (% threat transfers/Threat copy +25%) The advanced nature of the warden class doesnt mean it should be less efficient.
I just want to say that so many of you are crying way too much. The warden is not in an optimal spot but it is still very doable to tank even against 1st agers. To do this, you will have to relearn your rotation, really pay attention to threat, or stop playing the warden until it is easier for those that are having trouble.
/thread
Also, I'm not the best warden even but am offering any help to those that seek it.
LOL - You are offerring help to those who seek it? What help?
Anyone posting about threat problems is by your definition "crying way too much".
You "help" by labeling people and telling them to "really pay attention to threat".
But, people are complaining BECAUSE they ARE paying attention to threat.
It would have been more helpful just to say nothing than to post this way.
LOL - You are offerring help to those who seek it? What help?
Anyone posting about threat problems is by your definition "crying way too much".
You "help" by labeling people and telling them to "really pay attention to threat".
But, people are complaining BECAUSE they ARE paying attention to threat.
It would have been more helpful just to say nothing than to post this way.
lol
No, talking about threat problems isn't crying. Refusing to adapt is and posting about it. All it takes is a different rotation and not relying on exultation of battle. I remember with update 6, so many wardens, myself included, were complaining about threat. There is always a way to tank on a warden, you just need to understand the class. I have really only been playing my warden for a few months at lvl cap and yesterday I tanked a few instances and held aggro against very well geared DPSers including those with 1st ages. The DPS did give me a few seconds to build aggro. Even when aggression was the 10% threat leech, I tried not to use it whenever possible.
And as for helping, no one asked me a question or pmed me. I have been doing lots of threat leeches and am holding aggro perfectly and rarely need heals.
We still do have some very effective threat skills and people need to use them. I will however agree that it is much harder to hold aggro now than just doing 1 or 2 EOBs and going afk and still having aggro.
Last edited by schizoid19; Apr 17 2012 at 12:49 PM.
No, talking about threat problems isn't crying. Refusing to adapt is and posting about it. All it takes is a different rotation and not relying on exultation of battle. I remember with update 6, so many wardens, myself included, were complaining about threat. There is always a way to tank on a warden, you just need to understand the class. I have really only been playing my warden for a few months at lvl cap and yesterday I tanked a few instances and held aggro against very well geared DPSers including those with 1st ages. The DPS did give me a few seconds to build aggro. Even when aggression was the 10% threat leech, I tried not to use it whenever possible.
And as for helping, no one asked me a question or pmed me. I have been doing lots of threat leeches and am holding aggro perfectly.
I don't think the 10% threat leach ever made it past beta. It was always a set amount as far as I know. I do remember the tooltip saying 10% threat transfer in closed beta. Orion corrected us about that at one point leading up to RoI or shortly after release.
Gratz on tanking on your warden the past couple months. Many here have been tanking for years so there are layers of frustration that hopefully you'll never have to know about or have to go through. That frustration in my case has to do with the up and down nature of the class. Many opponents of the class have been proponents of it and vice versa.
And as for helping, no one asked me a question or pmed me. I have been doing lots of threat leeches and am holding aggro perfectly and rarely need heals.
Does the Orange part mean your healers rarely have to heal you or you rarely have to self heal?
Does the Orange part mean your healers rarely have to heal you or you rarely have to self heal?
Means the healers rarely have to. Since yesterday I've tanked ROF (which is way too easy), foundry, and three mans, all tier 2 of course. Yes those are not the most intense instances but it's what I've done since the patch. I'm hoping to get some Orthanc tier 2 going before the reset though and will definitely need heals
I don't think the 10% threat leach ever made it past beta. It was always a set amount as far as I know. I do remember the tooltip saying 10% threat transfer in closed beta. Orion corrected us about that at one point leading up to RoI or shortly after release.
Gratz on tanking on your warden the past couple months. Many here have been tanking for years so there are layers of frustration that hopefully you'll never have to know about or have to go through. That frustration in my case has to do with the up and down nature of the class. Many opponents of the class have been proponents of it and vice versa.
TL;DR; it's complicated
The 10% never made it live.
The frustration in my case has to do with the people that fail and come to the forums to preach their gospel about how the class is broken. Yet, there are wardens who have been getting the job done ALL ALONG. Now the class is stronger than ever, yet people STILL fail and blame the class instead of themselves. Whenever someone points this fact out, people like you always deflect the problem elsewhere instead of at yourself, which is where the problem truly is. For example, somebody says, "I can hold threat just fine, I don't understand the problem you are having", your typical reply, "Your dps classes don't hit hard enough", it's BS and you know it. Always an excuse... since day one...
But we are evasion tanks (in medium armor), right? So we need keep up our buffs.
But we are regeneration tanks (in medium armor), right? So we need keep up our heals.
... the Warden’s determination to succeed is easily translated to gaining extra morale over time. This also suggested a corollary mechanic. Given the Warden’s moral ascendancy over the forces of evil, it would make sense for the Warden’s opponents to lose morale over time from being in the presence of such a valorous fighter. All of these considerations and more were taken into account as we created the Warden’s Gambit abilities.
This meant that we were intentionally meant to be Self Healers and Morale Leechers. However, in further updates, we were given better Avoidences to help our survivability.
I think the missing reagent in threat here might be Might. Basically, Might will act as a multiplier for your threat generation.
Might makes more DPS ==> more threat.
Might makes more self healing ==> more threat.
And I -think- might makes more threat on threat generation skills (its our primary stat).
So if you are severely maxed out with Vit and morale at the expense of Might, then your threat may be degraded as well. Could those of you having trouble w/ threat post your might?
We are extending the thread to a point where no tips or useful information are been shared. We are only fighting and getting off topic.
So far is it pretty obvious to me that wardens can (without the EoB/TV bug) do a good tank job on low and medium difficult runs (LLD, RoF, ToO T1, Foundry, Skirm Raids, RoI T2 3man instances and 6man, Moors keeps). No aggro or survival problems.
The point that persist is if we will be able to get the job done on ToO T2. I think we will, but until next reset I cannot tell.
It is too soon to know for sure the effect of the EoB/TV nerf. We all need to do more tests and experiments. We should chill for the moment. In a week or more we will know for sure how good can wardens be on ToO T2.
I think the missing reagent in threat here might be Might. Basically, Might will act as a multiplier for your threat generation.
Might makes more DPS ==> more threat.
Might makes more self healing ==> more threat.
And I -think- might makes more threat on threat generation skills (its our primary stat).
So if you are severely maxed out with Vit and morale at the expense of Might, then your threat may be degraded as well. Could those of you having trouble w/ threat post your might?
--Harper
And/or lack of finesse which helps cut through mob resistance to threat skills. I used to not care about finesse for my tank build but notice A LOT less resists with 3k more finesse these days.
The frustration in my case has to do with the people that fail and come to the forums to preach their gospel about how the class is broken.
You've been on both sides on a couple occasions if I'm remembering correctly. Just b/c you have complete faith in the class (now) doesn't mean others can't discuss their frustrations, failures, and successes. I can only imagine the arguments you get into over the warden class in the Firefoot GLFF. You defend the class wholeheartedly with the same gusto you do here on there too right?
Originally Posted by horus418
Yet, there are wardens who have been getting the job done ALL ALONG. Now the class is stronger than ever, yet people STILL fail and blame the class instead of themselves.
I gave every instance leading up to u6 my best shot. Was even successful in most cases. Which probably surprises you. I have no problem with the class right now, it just isn't a class I really enjoy in a game that I log into less and less (right now). I am not the only person in that situation. Even given that, I'd like the class to be on par with guards...which may be they are (I'm still inclined to say not yet).
With regards to the game, I like LOTRO but SWTOR is still pretty shiny and awesome. I've found RoI to be lackluster with regards to PVE content and PVP content. Add to that many annoyances about the store and warden and you get me - a guy waiting for an expansion to either continue the story or rekindle the desire to play regularly.
Originally Posted by horus418
Whenever someone points this fact out, people like you always deflect the problem elsewhere instead of at yourself, which is where the problem truly is. For example, somebody says, "I can hold threat just fine, I don't understand the problem you are having", your typical reply, "Your dps classes don't hit hard enough", it's BS and you know it. Always an excuse... since day one...
Before our banter gets to its normal back and forth, I usually try to contribute something I think is relevant. My first post in this thread was me saying that I thought you were wrong about the nature of DPS between t1 and t2. Even if the dps was even between the two, you'd be getting hit harder in t2 so the healers heal more (+threat) meaning more threat gambits (-buffs/hots). There are many factors, may be the t1 dps is higher b/c of reduced mits/avoidance on mobs-or healers doing dps b/c heals aren't needed. In my opinion a group capable of t2 probably has more dps than a crew that can only manage t1, so there is a difference (as discussed before gear/experience/skill...). If you have any posts of mine that you'd like me to defend let me know. If they were BS (which is possible) - I'll let you know. I don't argue with you just b/c I like to argue. I argue with you when I think you say something wrong.
I was serious about asking you to tank t2 ToO to tell us how bad we are at the class and how easy it is for you. Although it seems like you think there is very little difference between the two so I'm not sure if you'll do it until you're level 85.
Also, I'm happy for all the wadens that have cleared Acid, Lightning, and Shadow - awesome job and keep up the good work. Hopefully with the rebalanced FF and Saruman fight wardens will CM them soon. They are some of the same people that inspired me @65 about wardens.
Just did foundry t2 multiple times and never had problem holding agro
1) did it with 3 champs + cappy to test AOE agro
2) did it with 3 hunters + cappy to test ST agro
3) did it with 1 champ + 2 hunters + cappy to test ST + AOE agro
The first few pulls were a bit shaky because I wasn't sure how much hold EoB would give me but after that I had all my buffs up and held agro and intentionally didnot generate threat for the final 10-15 sec and no one pulled anything off of me.
after this its about feel, you could either go WC/WOS/SOD or some agression of conviction.
Once advice I would give is if you're having troubles initially keep pumping out more threat and then omitting some of it for buffs, eventually you'll find a comfort zone where you have agro and able to hold defensive buffs.
The frustration in my case has to do with the people that fail and come to the forums to preach their gospel about how the class is broken. Yet, there are wardens who have been getting the job done ALL ALONG.
Ahh, Horus - it's good to have your passion on the board.
However, I've heard no one maintain that they have "the gospel." I have not heard anyone say that the warden is "broken." Those who are unhappy seem to think it is a struggle, and and are leaving for classes where their effort is better rewarded. People know there are wardens that get the job done. We are glad for you.
Originally Posted by horus418
Always an excuse... since day one...
Here is what else has been true "from day one."
Popular perception is that the Warden does not tank as well as the Guardian.
Some wardens on this board complain about lacking certain tools.
Others on the board claim popular perception is wrong, and complainers don't know how to play.
Group me with the complainers, I guess.
Originally Posted by Shintagh
Just did foundry t2 multiple times and never had problem holding agro
Thanks for the info.
Last edited by Jeger_Wulf; Apr 17 2012 at 02:08 PM.
It's odd that the OP is having problems. I did a bunch of 2-man stuff with a Champion today and did not have any problem with threat. We first went out to Limlight to test aggro on one of the 70k trees... one EoB was worth about 15k damage.
Later we did a couple 2-man runs of Pits of Isengard T2C. Basically, all I had to do was run into a group with EoB in Battle Prep, fire it off, and usually add a second EoB for good measure. The Champ just had to watch for the green glow to ensure all the targets got hit. After the initial aggro grab on trash mobs, I had plenty of flexibilty/time to do self-buffs and keep Conviction up (since that was the only healing for the Champ, but also for the threat transfer).
By the way, I'm traited almost the same as the OP... I think the only difference is that I have Never Say Die.
I was running with Zed2 in overpower (1.9k might, 9k crit) doing some 3-mans since the update, along with the aforementioned Champ (2k might, 8k crit) and I wasn't waiting for the green glow of EoB, whereas the Champ was.. for initial mob aggro this would throw the mob onto me, but even with me not playing nice he would usually pull them back before they died. Once I started waiting for the first green glow I was pulling aggro a lot less and certainly not for as long.
Both the Champ and myself did not want aggro, and gave our Warden tank time before each battle to do all his flashy boring stuff, so that he could run into battle and get a chance to do his job, aggro. We don't mind waiting before each battle, albeit I'd rather the devs just put all that junk on a toggle skill for Wardens.
For boss fights, the boss would be glued to the Warden. However, if the Warden got overconfident and slacked off on aggro the boss would definitely flip.. unlike pre update 6.1 where it was nearly if not impossible to pull aggro off of a Warden.
All in all I'm pretty happy where Warden aggro is. I think it is much closer to Guardians now. The main differences being that Guardians are much better for early aggro and Wardens are better for longer ongoing aggro.. each class with different strategies towards aggro.
No, talking about threat problems isn't crying. Refusing to adapt is and posting about it. All it takes is a different rotation and not relying on exultation of battle. I remember with update 6, so many wardens, myself included, were complaining about threat. There is always a way to tank on a warden, you just need to understand the class. I have really only been playing my warden for a few months at lvl cap and yesterday I tanked a few instances and held aggro against very well geared DPSers including those with 1st ages. The DPS did give me a few seconds to build aggro. Even when aggression was the 10% threat leech, I tried not to use it whenever possible.
And as for helping, no one asked me a question or pmed me. I have been doing lots of threat leeches and am holding aggro perfectly and rarely need heals.
We still do have some very effective threat skills and people need to use them. I will however agree that it is much harder to hold aggro now than just doing 1 or 2 EOBs and going afk and still having aggro.
If you refer to my original post you will see that I was not doing 1 or 2 EOBs and going AFK.
I don't see anyone here trying to go AFK - DO YOU? Where?
Who is refusing to adapt?
You say "We still do have some very effective threat skills". Well, it looks like EOB is still
*supposedly* our strongest threat tool, so it should be very effective.
Saying "There is always a way to tank on a warden" is NOT the same as saying that
Warden threat is correct or Wardens have proper tanking tools.
If you RARELY need heals then try some end-game content on T2.
It looks like Krackus has 791 might and a boatload of Vit. Horus has 504 might and similar Vit. So might is not playing a big part their different experiences.
I still think that might is a factor in threat. I think I can do some experiments. I've got 2 wardens and I build one primarily Might and one primarily Vit. I'll play them against each other on a spider with the exact same rotation and see where threat goes.
I'm thinking of just spamming Spear of Virtue between the two wardens and seeing who gets threat and how long he keeps it once the winner stops spamming. From that I can deduce the difference in threat generation and from there the role that might plays in threat.
Let T1 be the time that both wardens spam SoV.
Let T2 be the time that the losing warden spams SoV before regaining threat while other warden stops all actions.
Let G1 be the generated threat from the winning warden
Let G2 be the generated threat from the losing warden
Let M1 be the winning warden's might
Let M2 be the losing warden's might
Let MM be the Might Multiplier of base threat
**Ignore diminishing returns!**
Solving for the Might Multiplier:
M1 * MM * Base_threat = G1
M2 * MM * Base_threat = G2
G1/G2 = TGR
--Math--
M1/M2 = TGR * MightMultiplier
--Solve for Might Multiplier--
MightMultiplier = (M1/M2)/TGR
That should give you how much might plays a role in threat. It might be interesting to do the same experiment with threat Xfer (spam aggression or DoW on both).
As far as Finesse goes--Krackus has got 2k finesse and Horus has 4k. Maybe that accounts for the different experience? I really don't think this is a matter of L2P.
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Originally Posted by horus418
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Re: THREAT in Update 6.1
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