My first impression of the recent changes is that
Threat is quite poor.
It seems so poor that I'm starting to wonder if something
is buggy with the data structure for my character that
make my threat so bad.
I have the following traits slotted:
Skillful Blocking
Ward of Justice
Perseverance
Wary Block
Master of the Shield
Terrible Visage
Master of the Fist
Defiant Challenge
Way of the Shield
Grand Master Weapons
My level 75 2nd age spear has:
Fist-Spear gambit Threat up rating 9
My virtues are maxed and I have really good gear,
not that it matters much regarding threat.
I went on a run with a champ, a couple hunters, and
an rk. They often pulled aggro from me, and when they
did sometimes I could not get it back.
Yes, I was in Determination stance!
I opened with Goad, EOB, EOB, WC and within about 10
seconds I was losing stuff. I tried adding Aggression,
and Conviction - not helpful.
DC worked for 5 seconds then off the mobs ran again.
The thing that worked best was spamming SOV.
I mean SPAMMING!!! - non-stop. Just forget all my
defenses and self heals... It is just SO much
fun (NOT) to sit and spam SOV to keep *strong*
DPSers from pulling stuff. This is what poor threat does
to the Warden; makes him a spamming machine.
Oooooo... I'm such an advanced class!
Oh!! But now I can stand really far away and throw
javelins - WhooHoo! :-[
EDIT (4/20/2012): A couple days after update 6.1 another update
occurred to fix a gift-box issue. Coincidentally about this same time
threat seemed to get better. There is still the "normal struggle" to
keep it, but not the problem I was seeing where stuff was getting
pulled from me with very little effort from the DPSers.
Since the update made no mention of a warden fix I'm guessing that
something must have been corrupted on my toon that was fixed as
a side-effect of applying another update.
I don't get just what the problem is. Granted, our aggro isn't quite yet where it needs to be (we need still the Aggression boost Orion promised plus an aggro skill like WC stripped of damage), but my build is similar to yours and my tests today in Limelight and Roots came out ok, even though I'm still working on revised rotations and haven't yet quite figured out how and when best to use DC. Those may not have been the most strenuous tests, but still...
Edit: as mentioned in my post in the Update 6.1 Tanking thread, I went back to the old standby of asking everyone to hold back at the start the fight. Like you, I was leading with goad/double EoB, and said wait until you see the mobs turn green at least once. I hated making that request, but it seemed prudent.
Last edited by Morat; Apr 17 2012 at 12:00 AM.
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.
It's odd that the OP is having problems. I did a bunch of 2-man stuff with a Champion today and did not have any problem with threat. We first went out to Limlight to test aggro on one of the 70k trees... one EoB was worth about 15k damage.
Later we did a couple 2-man runs of Pits of Isengard T2C. Basically, all I had to do was run into a group with EoB in Battle Prep, fire it off, and usually add a second EoB for good measure. The Champ just had to watch for the green glow to ensure all the targets got hit. After the initial aggro grab on trash mobs, I had plenty of flexibilty/time to do self-buffs and keep Conviction up (since that was the only healing for the Champ, but also for the threat transfer).
By the way, I'm traited almost the same as the OP... I think the only difference is that I have Never Say Die.
It's odd that the OP is having problems. I did a bunch of 2-man stuff with a Champion today and did not have any problem with threat. We first went out to Limlight to test aggro on one of the 70k trees... one EoB was worth about 15k damage.
I keep seeing ppl say this but today i was having a HORRID time holding off of anything. Id start with an EoB in battle prep then goad and a double EoB and it was totally worthless against the champ and hunter i was running with. The champ pulled off of me with a single raging blades everytime and i was totally helpless to get it back spamming Aggression/conviction/EoB.. this was with TV traited for the added threat boost and in determination. It actually made me feel sick. I dont want to go back to asking ppl to wait for me to build aggro... Its worthless. DPS doesnt know what that means. The thought of trading my threat gen for survivability sucks. Why cant i have both? Seems guards do. (Im playing one at lvl 75 so i know from first hand exp.) First time playing a guard in a group as a tank and i can hold aggro off of stuff but i cant on my warden ive been playing for over a year? *sigh*
I keep seeing ppl say this but today i was having a HORRID time holding off of anything. Id start with an EoB in battle prep then goad and a double EoB and it was totally worthless against the champ and hunter i was running with. The champ pulled off of me with a single raging blades everytime and i was totally helpless to get it back spamming Aggression/conviction/EoB.. this was with TV traited for the added threat boost and in determination. It actually made me feel sick. I dont want to go back to asking ppl to wait for me to build aggro... Its worthless. DPS doesnt know what that means. The thought of trading my threat gen for survivability sucks. Why cant i have both? Seems guards do. (Im playing one at lvl 75 so i know from first hand exp.) First time playing a guard in a group as a tank and i can hold aggro off of stuff but i cant on my warden ive been playing for over a year? *sigh*
First off...you are the tank. Telll them to back down if you need time to raise aggro. To make it easy on them, tell them to wait 5 secs and *then* DPS.
Secondly...Was the champ in glory stance? He might have used glory to be more survivable. Was teh hunter in Strength stance? Sometimes hunters can't keep it in their pants.
Today, I noticed a remarkable change in my aggro. I play with a captain who ALWAYS used to pull aggro off me. And now, he still pulls aggro, but not nearly as much as he used to. He has to fight for it now. The *up* in aggro isn't all that spectacular, but I noticed a differece today.
First off...you are the tank. Telll them to back down if you need time to raise aggro. To make it easy on them, tell them to wait 5 secs and *then* DPS.
Secondly...Was the champ in glory stance? He might have used glory to be more survivable. Was teh hunter in Strength stance? Sometimes hunters can't keep it in their pants.
Today, I noticed a remarkable change in my aggro. I play with a captain who ALWAYS used to pull aggro off me. And now, he still pulls aggro, but not nearly as much as he used to. He has to fight for it now. The *up* in aggro isn't all that spectacular, but I noticed a differece today.
The champ was in fervor and traited for it. The hunter wasnt in strength. Guards dont have to tell everyone to wait 5 seconds unless they just suck. There is no reason a warden should have to tell people to wait. I dont want to tell the dps to back off. Since RoI Ive been telling them to go all out from the start and thats a habbit i dont want to break. It weakens the classes rep to say "please dont make me look bad. Let me have time for aggro." Afterall.. If the fervor champ takes aggro and holds it throughout the fight and doesnt go down whats the point of the warden anyways..
I keep seeing ppl say this but today i was having a HORRID time holding off of anything. Id start with an EoB in battle prep then goad and a double EoB and it was totally worthless against the champ and hunter i was running with. The champ pulled off of me with a single raging blades everytime and i was totally helpless to get it back spamming Aggression/conviction/EoB.. this was with TV traited for the added threat boost and in determination. It actually made me feel sick. I dont want to go back to asking ppl to wait for me to build aggro... Its worthless. DPS doesnt know what that means. The thought of trading my threat gen for survivability sucks. Why cant i have both? Seems guards do. (Im playing one at lvl 75 so i know from first hand exp.) First time playing a guard in a group as a tank and i can hold aggro off of stuff but i cant on my warden ive been playing for over a year? *sigh*
YES! I'm a bit relived to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing this because maybe
it will get some attention and get fixed. I find it hard to believe that my toon is working
as intended. Wardens used to be the best threat generators in the game. This is so
disappointing considering how much time I've invested to level this guy. Software is
complex stuff -- maybe some combination of traits/gear/stats causes a bug that reduces
our threat. Thanks for posting.
The champ was in fervor and traited for it. The hunter wasnt in strength. Guards dont have to tell everyone to wait 5 seconds unless they just suck. There is no reason a warden should have to tell people to wait. I dont want to tell the dps to back off. Since RoI Ive been telling them to go all out from the start and thats a habbit i dont want to break. It weakens the classes rep to say "please dont make me look bad. Let me have time for aggro." Afterall.. If the fervor champ takes aggro and holds it throughout the fight and doesnt go down whats the point of the warden anyways..
Well right now, I'm having no issues holding aggro but have been telling my group to give me a few seconds since the EOB nerf. It may be necessary for the dps to allow the warden to gain aggro.
This is interesting. I ran Foundry today and had no issues to speak of. In fact I was very, very pleasantly surprised at how our threat didn't suck as much as I thought it would. All I did was Goad, EoB, EoB, War Cry (because why not) and then just did whatever seemed prudent. I didn't lose much at all... though maybe the issue was that stuff was just dying so fast that it didn't have time to not be aggro'd on me... For the record though, what few issues I did have was the Strength Stance hunters hitting things that weren't my target, or else blasting my target for thousands of damage when all I had done thus far was lob a shield piercer at it. I had no issue with champions whatsoever, never lost aggro to a healer or cappy, and very few issues with RK's.
Only issue I have noticed, and it's a pain in the butt for sure, is that catching up with aggro takes a long bloody time. If the DPS aggro's something before I have a chance to work on it, or has been hitting it for awhile before I noticed I didn't have aggro on it, catching up to the point where I could pull it off of them was a real pain. Besides hitting DC and hoping the DPS would all kill it before the force taunt wore off, there wasn't much I could do.
This strategy doesn't hold well with raids, but for the record if you are having real trouble open with a Conviction from Assailment just before you pull and then blast off 2-3 EoB's and as many raw threat gambits as you can manage. After the -99% has worn off, use a double Aggression and you should have a fairly large threat lead. You can do this again and again throughout the pull to give yourself little boosts when needed, just remember that in raids this strat doesn't hold well and you must be sure to hit EVERYONE with convictions limited range.
Ghost Bear see problem. Nice peoples looking at Horse mouth. Ghost bear look at Horse belly. Horse make good snack!
This is interesting. I ran Foundry today and had no issues to speak of. In fact I was very, very pleasantly surprised at how our threat didn't suck as much as I thought it would. All I did was Goad, EoB, EoB, War Cry (because why not) and then just did whatever seemed prudent. I didn't lose much at all... though maybe the issue was that stuff was just dying so fast that it didn't have time to not be aggro'd on me... For the record though, what few issues I did have was the Strength Stance hunters hitting things that weren't my target, or else blasting my target for thousands of damage when all I had done thus far was lob a shield piercer at it. I had no issue with champions whatsoever, never lost aggro to a healer or cappy, and very few issues with RK's.
Only issue I have noticed, and it's a pain in the butt for sure, is that catching up with aggro takes a long bloody time. If the DPS aggro's something before I have a chance to work on it, or has been hitting it for awhile before I noticed I didn't have aggro on it, catching up to the point where I could pull it off of them was a real pain. Besides hitting DC and hoping the DPS would all kill it before the force taunt wore off, there wasn't much I could do.
This strategy doesn't hold well with raids, but for the record if you are having real trouble open with a Conviction from Assailment just before you pull and then blast off 2-3 EoB's and as many raw threat gambits as you can manage. After the -99% has worn off, use a double Aggression and you should have a fairly large threat lead. You can do this again and again throughout the pull to give yourself little boosts when needed, just remember that in raids this strat doesn't hold well and you must be sure to hit EVERYONE with convictions limited range.
I APPRECIATE that you are trying to come up with a "work-around", but my toon
is nearly maxed in every way and if at this level I have to resort to so much
trouble to generate good threat as a tank... well it is just no fun.
It's disappointing. If this is what I have to look forward to when I tank then
what is the point, ya know?
I was quite excited about 6.1 dropping. sounded like some nice fixes for us. But I have to admit I'm lost for words.
The first thing I did was Limlight dailies with a well geared well played RK and Burg. I had TV traited but was still in Fist traits not shield. Double EoBs were meaningless. War Cries did nothing. Looks like we're back to spamming PB.
I had to work extremely hard to keep aggro of Trees, Trolls and Spiders. Yes I was in Determination. I managed to throw in some Convictions for self heals, Maddening / DoW and SoD for self buffs but if i tried other self heals / buffs which had no aggro component I lost the mob fairly quickly. Eventually I gave up buffing my defences (I mean its just trolls and trees right?) and focused purely on threat. Determination, Conviction and a pot or two kept me up. Of course if I was Shield traited I would need less self-heals but were talking overland mobs. For me Shield is the Raid line. And that was not the point. I'm talking about Aggro.
Then we went into Shadow Wing Tier 2. This is where it was clear to me that either I need to relearn all my rotations again (I don't mind this. If it turns out to be the case ill be happy as I don't have rotations I go with the flow) or something is broken. Again. We couldn't get past the first trash pull because I could not keep 4 mobs (2 big uruks and 2 small ones) locked down on me. Let alone pick up the Shadow-Casters once they wake up from their stuns. Even focusing purely on Aggro I had the dps target peeled off me by the Champ. A Geared to the teeth top-end champ. Of course if I could keep the rest on me I still had no time for self heals or self buffs so, you know, I eventually went down like a sack of $..t.
After trying for 4 times to get through that pull I told the raid leader that I dont want to tank on my warden until I figure out all the changes and swapped to my RK. 10K+ hits with epic conclusion went some nice way to ease the pain of seeing a Guardian alt breeze through what I just failed to do.
When I heard about changes coming in 6.1 I had my concerns. I thought that if I can now perform 2 out of the 3 things I need to do while tanking (Threat, Buffs, Heals) then I should be ok. As it turns out I only have time for one of those things. Threat. And even then its a bit miserable. I have always argued that Threat gen on a Warden should be easy so that we can focus on survivability. In the same way that survivability is easy on a Guard so that they can focus on threat. Bear in mind that our Survivability comprises two elements (Buffs + Heals).
I am sure many of you will reply that I iz Fail. And that I shouldn't play a Complex class if I want easy. May be so. In your replies please let me know what are your tactics and experiences in tanking Tier 2 Shadow or Acid wing trash so I can learn. Skirmish Raids, RoF or anything else for that matter offer very little insight into what happens in these fights. Asking the group to wait 5-10 seconds at the start of the pull is not an option as stuff needs to die fast. And by fast I mean by the first 20 seconds 2 mobs should ideally be down. Tier 1 doesn't bear any resemblance to Tier 2 either.
Honest moment:- I can't take the roller-coaster any longer. For a long time I sympathized with Myst while thinking he is taking it too far. I guess I just had enough. If it turns out that there is nothing wrong with the 6.1 Warden then ill change my Sig back. I'd rather be a fail-warden than anything else but I am done playing a class that cannot do what I need it to do (Orthanc Main Tanking on Par with Guardian).
I'll still play it in the Moors ofc. I'll enjoy 40m range on Fist traits EoB when i run around solo against creep raids.
But we are evasion tanks (in medium armor), right? So we need keep up our buffs.
But we are regeneration tanks (in medium armor), right? So we need keep up our heals.
I have always argued that Threat gen on a Warden should be easy so that we can focus on survivability. In the same way that survivability is easy on a Guard so that they can focus on threat. Bear in mind that our Survivability comprises two elements (Buffs + Heals).
Agreed 100%. We do not have the option of simply hitting one button thats instant cast and short animation every so often for max defense so threat should be our strong point. We have to be able to hold threat when we break off into a healing frenzy to um... oh yeah.. stay alive so we can take hits like heavy armor in our own way.
Originally Posted by Ravenstride
Honest moment:- I can't take the roller-coaster any longer. For a long time I sympathized with Myst while thinking he is taking it too far. I guess I just had enough. If it turns out that there is nothing wrong with the 6.1 Warden then ill change my Sig back. I'd rather be a fail-warden than anything else but I am done playing a class that cannot do what I need it to do (Orthanc Main Tanking on Par with Guardian).
I cant take the roller coaster anymore either... Its been fix after bug after fix after revamp after not WAI after blah blah blah for so long... The constant flux of the class is getting soooooo old. Aggression was fine as it was in RoI.. why it got nerfed is beyond me. This whole revamp was pointless. Roll back to update 5 and add more mitigation and leave threat as it was and multiple problems solved. It would make scaling easier and would require alot less bug fixing.. Ive had it at this point..
Last edited by Erasluindor; Apr 17 2012 at 03:30 AM.
I have been intentionally avoiding EoB whenever possible, since I knew it would be fixed/nerfed.
As far as I'm aware, Precise Blow was not changed, and Precise Blow is incredibly effective.
PB is indeed very effective. Against a single target. Over time.
The question is what do you mean by effective? Im rolling with classes that QQ when they fall off 2K dps. And some of those are AoE dps (Champs and Fire RKs).
I dont think ill have an issue tanking any single Raid boss. But with trash being what it is in T2 my group will not get there when I'm main tank.
PB is indeed very effective. Against a single target. Over time.
The question is what do you mean by effective? Im rolling with classes that QQ when they fall off 2K dps. And some of those are AoE dps (Champs and Fire RKs).
I dont think ill have an issue tanking any single Raid boss. But with trash being what it is in T2 my group will not get there when I'm main tank.
My Warden has only been 75 for about 10 days, so my gear is far from top-end. And my tanking experience is limited to 3-/6-mans and Limlight dailies (also Draigoch, but threat generation seems irrelevant there).
That said, it seems to me that AoE DPS, being spread over multiple mobs, should be fine with distributed PB's. If Champs are doing 2K DPS to *each* of 3-5 mobs (or 6-10K DPS total), that would be another story.
Agreed 100%. We do not have the option of simply hitting one button thats instant cast and short animation every so often for max defense so threat should be our strong point. We have to be able to hold threat when we break off into a healing frenzy to um... oh yeah.. stay alive so we can take hits like heavy armor in our own way.
I cant take the roller coaster anymore either... Its been fix after bug after fix after revamp after not WAI after blah blah blah for so long... The constant flux of the class is getting soooooo old. Aggression was fine as it was in RoI.. why it got nerfed is beyond me. This whole revamp was pointless. Roll back to update 5 and add more mitigation and leave threat as it was and multiple problems solved. It would make scaling easier and would require alot less bug fixing.. Ive had it at this point..
Yep, it is getting OLD.
We need better threat. Many of our threat skills just seem like a no-op.
EOB was super powered. I understand making a little adjusment, but now it
is weak. Our other threat skills were already weak, and still are.
Weak threat on a Warden just makes the class a #### to play as you sit
spamming for aggro while dying because you have not enough time to use
your defenses and heals.
I can not ask groups to wait EVEN LONGER for me to get aggro (that I can
not keep). They simply end up saying "no thanks, we'll get a guard."
More and more it just feels like this class is a bunch of experimental changes;
as if the designers do not actually play the class in a variety of scenarios.
How can I possibly have the best traits and legacy for threat and NOT
have great threat ?!
Precise Blow (Initial Threat): ~1,5-2k dmg
Precise Blow (after 16 seconds) : ~3,5k dmg
Spear of Virtue: ~3,5k
Goad: ~0,5k
War Cry: ~1k (according to tooltip it should be 2x Threat, so I'd expect 1,5-2k worth of dmg like PB - broken/wrong tooltip?)
Exultation of Battle: ~15k (adding more threat if you have numerous opponents as the healing part raises)
------------------------------
My Conclusion:
Already said that during the old pre-update 6 Beta: The threat system should get an overhaul. (or DD's dps should get lowered)
Those numbers are fine for most content and 3rd and 2nd agers, in T2 ToO Raids where you expect 2k dps from any DD - sometimes up to 3k DPS with Oathies it's faaaaar off even with constant provoking from burglars/champs. Also this is not purely seen from a Warden PoV, but Guards could get that push, too.
Also its strange that a multiple mobs threat skill (EoB) does more Threat to a single target (bosses) than the best single-target skills - AND it's easier to build than Spear of Virtue due to double masteries.
If you imagine that building and executing PB takes approx 1,5-2 seconds w/o double builders and perhaps 0.5-1secs with double builders/BM (so you can just do that 3 times every 15 secs) you can fit in approx. 10 PBs in 1 rotation of 15 seconds if you do nothing but PB.
That's roughly ~35k worth of dmg or approx enough up to ~2,3k dps. More than enough for normal content, kinda laughable for raids as you won't be able to do anything else.
Right now EoB is the Warden's saving Grace, as you should be able to spamm it 4 times in 15 seconds (2x bm +2x using fast builders, leaving you with 2 double builders for other gambits every 15 seconds.), generating ~60k worth of threat -> safe up 4k DPS.
That's the reason why I sincerely hope that we'll see an overhaul of the threat system/tweaking of those numbers soon.
Of course you will make it worth...but spamming 3-4x an AOE threat every 15 seconds to keep aggro on bosses because your single target skills do not cut it ....sounds not WAI for me...
Last edited by Minyacairwen; Apr 17 2012 at 09:09 AM.
Reason: corrected calculation error
The champ was in fervor and traited for it. The hunter wasnt in strength. Guards dont have to tell everyone to wait 5 seconds unless they just suck. There is no reason a warden should have to tell people to wait. I dont want to tell the dps to back off. Since RoI Ive been telling them to go all out from the start and thats a habbit i dont want to break. It weakens the classes rep to say "please dont make me look bad. Let me have time for aggro." Afterall.. If the fervor champ takes aggro and holds it throughout the fight and doesnt go down whats the point of the warden anyways..
Really really sorry to say this, and I hate it too, but we are indeed back to the time when we have to ask fellow mates (and not just dps'ers but also healers) to hold off on anything that generates aggo until we can lay down at least get one good aggro gambit. EoB seems best for that because it gives a good visual clue. I haven't yet gotten in the knack of starting a fight with DC. That seems like it might fill the bill instead, but of course it isn't real aggro but a taunt. We will still have to build the aggro after it claw our way to the top of the pile. So asking for a slight wait at the start of a fight along with not leading with heartseekers seems best. I used to do this before Isengard, after which I could manage without it with a WC/Aggression and after U6 with a quick double hit of EoB (a little lazy I know, but there you have it).
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.
I was quite excited about 6.1 dropping. sounded like some nice fixes for us. But I have to admit I'm lost for words.
[...snip]
I am sure many of you will reply that I iz Fail. And that I shouldn't play a Complex class if I want easy. May be so. In your replies please let me know what are your tactics and experiences in tanking Tier 2 Shadow or Acid wing trash so I can learn. Skirmish Raids, RoF or anything else for that matter offer very little insight into what happens in these fights. Asking the group to wait 5-10 seconds at the start of the pull is not an option as stuff needs to die fast. And by fast I mean by the first 20 seconds 2 mobs should ideally be down. Tier 1 doesn't bear any resemblance to Tier 2 either.
[snip...]
I never said that my test yesterday was necessarily the best, as it was only LL lanscape and RoF. But if what you say is right I'm now getting discouraged again. And btw, I simply don't see how, with our current aggro toolbox, that we can tank at the get-go without DC or asking dps'ers/healers to wait until we get our aggro gambits underway.
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.
That's roughly ~15-20k worth of dmg - in case of 20k, thats 1,33k dps. Enough for normal content, laughable for raids.
Your own numbers quote 3.5K per PB when the ToT is added in (which is should be in any sustained situation).
Granted, spamming nothing but PB isn't very realistic, but you aren't including any threat reducing effects, traits, etc by the DPSers either.
Originally Posted by Minyacairwen
Of course you will make it worth...but spamming 3-4x an AOE threat every 15 seconds to keep aggro on bosses because your single target skills do not cut it ....sounds not WAI for me...
I understand your point, but it may (and should, IMO) be WAI that DPS classes have to care about their threat generation.
I cannot tell what is the problem with all wardens that are having problems holding aggro after 6.1, but something must be.
I was using EoB before update 5 like many of u, after update 5 we got aggression and it made things a lot easier. I kept using EoB and added aggression.
After update 6 TV trait bugged EoB so badly that EoB alone could secure aggro.
Yesterday, after u6.1, I ran a lots of tests:
- took lugz/moors with 2 champs, 1 burg and a cappy.
- deep way skirm (no healers, full of hunters and champs, some cappys and 1 burg)
- foundry (rk on heal, cappy, hunter, burg and champ)
- rof (mini, lm, hunter, champ and cappy)
- rof (rk, burg, hunter, champ and cappy)
- LLD (3 hunters, champ and mini)
- Tests with a very good guardian on my kin (without using any skill, just eob):
- guardian tring to get aggro on me after 1 eob, 2eob, 3 eobs
- I trying to get aggro on guardian (without force attacks skills)
- aggro fight
On all the runs I told everybody to hit hard from the start and use all they got, no aggro management.
I could hold aggro easily on all the tests. Very easily actually. One of the champs with me got aggro sometimes if I spent too much time without using EoB and/or Aggression, but I could get back very fast.
I have TV and Strong Voice traited, all rest is blues. I have the legacy to reduce resist rating on EoB and increase threat on first gambits (all ranked max).
I have TV and Strong Voice traited, all rest is blues. I have the legacy to reduce resist rating on EoB and increase threat on first gambits (all ranked max).
Strong Voice *increases* the target's resist chance, according to the tooltip (even after 6.1), and there is no legacy to reduce resist on EoB (there is a legacy to reduce resist on Resolution).
Thabk you for the correction, my mistake about the legacy. About strong voice, it might be an issue with the tooltip or the effect, I don't know. I assumed it is working properly and the tooltip is showing the effect on dps staces only.
I cannot tell what is the problem with all wardens that are having problems holding aggro after 6.1, but something must be.
I was using EoB before update 5 like many of u, after update 5 we got aggression and it made things a lot easier. I kept using EoB and added aggression.
After update 6 TV trait bugged EoB so badly that EoB alone could secure aggro.
Yesterday, after u6.1, I ran a lots of tests:
- took lugz/moors with 2 champs, 1 burg and a cappy.
- deep way skirm (no healers, full of hunters and champs, some cappys and 1 burg)
- foundry (rk on heal, cappy, hunter, burg and champ)
- rof (mini, lm, hunter, champ and cappy)
- rof (rk, burg, hunter, champ and cappy)
- LLD (3 hunters, champ and mini)
- Tests with a very good guardian on my kin (without using any skill, just eob):
- guardian tring to get aggro on me after 1 eob, 2eob, 3 eobs
- I trying to get aggro on guardian (without force attacks skills)
- aggro fight
On all the runs I told everybody to hit hard from the start and use all they got, no aggro management.
I could hold aggro easily on all the tests. Very easily actually. One of the champs with me got aggro sometimes if I spent too much time without using EoB and/or Aggression, but I could get back very fast.
I have TV and Strong Voice traited, all rest is blues. I have the legacy to reduce resist rating on EoB and increase threat on first gambits (all ranked max).
I am glad to hear that in all the easy content the Warden is still a viable tank. I never once thought i'd have problems standing up to any instance mobs / bosses. Or my favourite pass time (not really) of aggroing all of Orc Camp and laugh at any fool Creep that thinks its a good time to jump me when I have 10 life-taps running.
In all the situations you describe Aggro is the only consideration for the tank. The healers can easily keep you up even if you went in with quest reward gear. Especially with both a Minstrel and a Captain in the group.
I would still like to hear from Wardens who are currently successfully main tanking (solo-tanking!) Orthanc tier 2 Shadow / Acid wings. How do you handle:
Positioning
Aggro
CC
Self Heals
Self Buffs
Yes, EoB was a crutch that allowed me to do it. I understand that it is now gone. What are your rotations to address the need for around
3-4K threat per second
~400 heals per second
Maintaining most of your self or your Self Buffs (not even asking for all).
Let's be clear, threat is threat, it doesn't matter what content you are running. Don't put yourself up on some pedestal because you are doing T2 whatever, that means 0 when we talk about threat.
Originally Posted by Ravenstride
Yes, EoB was a crutch that allowed me to do it.
Ohhhhhh, now I get it... You were relying on a bug which you knew was going to get taken away, and now you don't know what to do for threat. Gotcha.
I had zero problems yesterday with aggro, but that doesn't count because it was only RoF...
Also, please show me parses of dps classes doing 3-4k dps, because I don't believe it.
Your own numbers quote 3.5K per PB when the ToT is added in (which is should be in any sustained situation).
Thanks, correcting
Granted, spamming nothing but PB isn't very realistic, but you aren't including any threat reducing effects, traits, etc by the DPSers either.
Just used that example to show the sillyness of EoB vs the curently best single-target threat skill (PB) on single targets.
And of course Bugs can Vanish and Champs push threat towards the tank - less than ideal for hunters (book and SS in endurance stance or RK's (just a -perceived threat every minute)
So, of course it should be a group effort to manage threat and it works during current endgame boss fights unless you try to do speed runs -- but that kinda leaves me asking why some Wings of ToO t2 are designed in a way that you have to burn adds (e.g. wargs in Acid) so fast that there is no way of holding back/almost no room at all for threat management besides forced taunts (i.e. Guards, Champs)
Also, kinda the reason why I did not say that threat should be raised, just the system should get an overhaul. Lowering DPS would be a solution, too, e.g.
Last edited by Minyacairwen; Apr 17 2012 at 09:10 AM.
Let's be clear, threat is threat, it doesn't matter what content you are running. Don't put yourself up on some pedestal because you are doing T2 whatever, that means 0 when we talk about threat.
To a very large degree i agree. But threat will be alot harder to manage in t2 Orthanc wings than say.. foundry. Im especially curious how ppl are handling kalbak. The only way ive been able to tank swap since the aggression nerf is traiting TV and using EoB.
Originally Posted by horus418
Ohhhhhh, now I get it... You were relying on a bug which you knew was going to get taken away, and now you don't know what to do for threat. Gotcha.
There was free candy being given out in the van! It was hard to resist not going up to the guy wearing all black with the skii mask to take some I didnt always use the bug. In fact i tested on many occasions if i could hold aggro without it and i could. Now Im just feeling helpless. No threat changes as far as i can see so Im not sure whats going on.. Oh well... That little spell where wardens were fun again was nice. They could actually do their job well and could manage damage by putting up defenses like crazy.
To a very large degree i agree. But threat will be alot harder to manage in t2 Orthanc wings than say.. foundry. Im especially curious how ppl are handling kalbak. The only way ive been able to tank swap since the aggression nerf is traiting TV and using EoB.
I stopped traiting TV since I found it was bugged, except for getting talked in to Sauruman kiting, yuk. The only problem I've ever had with tank swapping was taking the aggro back too early. I've been aggro swapping since turtle on my Warden, it's all about staying active with threat, never stop building.
There was free candy being given out in the van! It was hard to resist not going up to the guy wearing all black with the skii mask to take some I didnt always use the bug. In fact i tested on many occasions if i could hold aggro without it and i could. Now Im just feeling helpless. No threat changes as far as i can see so Im not sure whats going on.. Oh well... That little spell where wardens were fun again was nice. They could actually do their job well and could manage damage by putting up defenses like crazy.
Well, if you say you could hold threat without TV before, why wouldn't you be able to now? Unless something else is broken, doing the same thing now that you did then should still keep you in the "i could", category, right?
I am glad to hear that in all the easy content the Warden is still a viable tank. I never once thought i'd have problems standing up to any instance mobs / bosses. Or my favourite pass time (not really) of aggroing all of Orc Camp and laugh at any fool Creep that thinks its a good time to jump me when I have 10 life-taps running.
In all the situations you describe Aggro is the only consideration for the tank. The healers can easily keep you up even if you went in with quest reward gear. Especially with both a Minstrel and a Captain in the group.
I would still like to hear from Wardens who are currently successfully main tanking (solo-tanking!) Orthanc tier 2 Shadow / Acid wings. How do you handle:
Positioning
Aggro
CC
Self Heals
Self Buffs
Yes, EoB was a crutch that allowed me to do it. I understand that it is now gone. What are your rotations to address the need for around
3-4K threat per second
~400 heals per second
Maintaining most of your self or your Self Buffs (not even asking for all).
Looking forward to learning!
I didn't mean to offend or teach anyone. I apologize to all that felt that way. My post only intention was to show everybody the results of my tests with threat after update 6.1. I am satisfied and I don't think wardens should have problems to hold aggro after update 6.1.
As previously stated, aggro may be an issued if we are "too damn overloaded" building defense and auto-healing, but it should not happen with gambits that generate aggro while building defense or heals + a good healer. If we still have problems, add little aggro management from a good group (provokes from burgs, dumps of aggro from champs, dpsers in the warden group and on range for aggression and other aggro transfer gambits, ...).
I don't know about any guardians solo tanking acid and shadow trash t2, but I might be wrong. I am still trying to beat those two wings with my kin, but my warden duo tank with a guardian lightning and fire/ice T2. I have locks and until next reset I cannot test again.
Well, if you say you could hold threat without TV before, why wouldn't you be able to now? Unless something else is broken, doing the same thing now that you did then should still keep you in the "i could", category, right?
Thats the part Im havin problems figuring out. No threat changes other than TV's fix that i saw in this patch.
The idea that you should never stop building when in a tank swapping situation doesnt cut it.. I never know where the other tank is on the aggro tables so I may surpass him too early. That spells disaster when your static has gotten a little too high and you get it back early and blow up the raid. Wardens need a precise tank swap tool. Engage and challenge the darkness along with Threat stance toggling works well enough for guards. But alas those are clicky skills which should never ever ever be introduced for a warden no matter how restricting the gambit system is on snap aggro due to the possible spamming of a single skill (see the alligatoins against Aggression before the nerf).
Let's be clear, threat is threat, it doesn't matter what content you are running. Don't put yourself up on some pedestal because you are doing T2 whatever, that means 0 when we talk about threat.
Ohhhhhh, now I get it... You were relying on a bug which you knew was going to get taken away, and now you don't know what to do for threat. Gotcha.
I had zero problems yesterday with aggro, but that doesn't count because it was only RoF...
Also, please show me parses of dps classes doing 3-4k dps, because I don't believe it.
3-4K dps is easy when a mob only lives for 10 seconds. Crit ratings of 25% + burg / captain buffs + Oathbreakers on a warg means that I have to spam threat to stay ahead of spike damage. I am not talking about sustained dps.
threat is threat. And yes if left to my own devices I can maintain aggro of a whole trash pull. The problem, as I clearly stated, lies in the fact I am then left with no time for self buffs and self heals which are definitely required. Not in RoF because there a Minstrel + a Captain will keep you up naked. But in Orthanc.
Im not gonna bother talking about EoB. I didn't rely on it like you seem to think. I have been tanking on a Warden since January 2009 as it turns out so I know which gambits do what and when to use them.
edit: There are no fights in Orthanc that require aggro-swapping. I got no issues with that yet. If I wanted to tank OD Fear wing though that might be a different story.
Last edited by Ravenstride; Apr 17 2012 at 09:38 AM.
Thats the part Im havin problems figuring out. No threat changes other than TV's fix that i saw in this patch.
The idea that you should never stop building when in a tank swapping situation doesnt cut it.. I never know where the other tank is on the aggro tables so I may surpass him too early. That spells disaster when your static has gotten a little too high and you get it back early and blow up the raid. Wardens need a precise tank swap tool. Engage and challenge the darkness along with Threat stance toggling works well enough for guards. But alas those are clicky skills which should never ever ever be introduced for a warden no matter how restricting the gambit system is on snap aggro due to the possible spamming of a single skill (see the alligatoins against Aggression before the nerf).
What do you mean it doesn't cut it??? Of course it cuts it because that's how I've always done it, so many times I can't count. Now with ways to actually drop warden threat, tank swapping is easier than ever. I'm sorry, it's just crazy to me that somebody would refuse to use the tools given to them. If I can do it, you can to.
I didn't mean to offend or teach anyone. I apologize to all that felt that way. My post only intention was to show everybody the results of my tests with threat after update 6.1. I am satisfied and I don't think wardens should have problems to hold aggro after update 6.1.
As previously stated, aggro may be an issued if we are "too damn overloaded" building defense and auto-healing, but it should not happen with gambits that generate aggro while building defense or heals + a good healer. If we still have problems, add little aggro management from a good group (provokes from burgs, dumps of aggro from champs, dpsers in the warden group and on range for aggression and other aggro transfer gambits, ...).
I don't know about any guardians solo tanking acid and shadow trash t2, but I might be wrong. I am still trying to beat those two wings with my kin, but my warden duo tank with a guardian lightning and fire/ice T2. I have locks and until next reset I cannot test again.
I, personally, did not take offence. I come to the forums to learn and grow so I really meant those words.
Our kin successfully clears those wings with 1 Guardian tanking while the champ usually picks up the current DPS target while Burgs and LMs mezz things.
It might not be the Turbine approved way of doing things but it works with a Guardian. I am trying to understand what I need to do to make it work with a Warden.
It might just be that new DC is the way to go. The short CD means it will be available or near enough at the start of each pull. I'll have to try it out I guess.
What do you mean it doesn't cut it??? Of course it cuts it because that's how I've always done it, so many times I can't count. Now with ways to actually drop warden threat, tank swapping is easier than ever. I'm sorry, it's just crazy to me that somebody would refuse to use the tools given to them. If I can do it, you can to.
Yes let me stay one step behind the guard on the invisible threat charts that no one can see and who isnt the same one i ran with last week so i cant feel out exactly how much he has in comparison to me usually. Oh and while were at it the tools given to us were aggression and it was nerfed to hell and back. I used to be able to do this on turtle but thats only because i ran it with the same guardian every single time.
What do you mean it doesn't cut it??? Of course it cuts it because that's how I've always done it, so many times I can't count. Now with ways to actually drop warden threat, tank swapping is easier than ever. I'm sorry, it's just crazy to me that somebody would refuse to use the tools given to them. If I can do it, you can to.
I agree with you there. Aggro swap on Wardens does require constant threat level management both when you are ON and when you are OFF. I tank-swapped OD Balrog before we were given Aggression. And it taught me to stay very well aware of my threat levels. Though in reality what it came down to was the Guardian toggling Threat Stance on and off. Give or Take a few PBs ofc.
3-4K dps is easy when a mob only lives for 10 seconds. Crit ratings of 25% + burg / captain buffs + Oathbreakers on a warg means that I have to spam threat to stay ahead of spike damage. I am not talking about sustained dps.
I still don't see what the problem is. You should have your defenses up because of BPrep, so all you need to do is spam nothing but threat in the beginning. If it's only a 10 second fight, who cares if somebody pulls aggro at second 8, or are you exaggerating a little bit?
threat is threat. And yes if left to my own devices I can maintain aggro of a whole trash pull. The problem, as I clearly stated, lies in the fact I am then left with no time for self buffs and self heals which are definitely required. Not in RoF because there a Minstrel + a Captain will keep you up naked. But in Orthanc.
As I said, with BP all you need to do is worry about threat for the first 30 seconds, at least. After that, you'll have enough raw threat build up to start cycling defense gambits, most of which have threat attached to them.
Im not gonna bother talking about EoB. I didn't rely on it like you seem to think. I have been tanking on a Warden since January 2009 as it turns out so I know which gambits do what and when to use them.
Funny, you are the one who brought EoB up and said it was your crutch...
edit: There are no fights in Orthanc that require aggro-swapping. I got no issues with that yet. If I wanted to tank OD Fear wing though that might be a different story.[/QUOTE]
Like I said in my last post, I've been swapping aggro since moria, this includes OD, on level. I tank swapped then with ease, I do the same now. If I can do it, you can to. I'm nobody special, we play the same class.
Though in reality what it came down to was the Guardian toggling Threat Stance on and off. Give or Take a few PBs ofc.
Ah i see. Provided the other tank is a guard who can toggle threat stance and no other variables of running with other tanks who generate different amounts of threat this can easily be done. Just make sure you always run with the same group. Oh and god forbid two wardens actually do this without a guard because... you know... Not bringing a guard is insanity. But wardens are fine! The guard is just for show
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Re: THREAT in Update 6.1
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I didnt always use the bug. In fact i tested on many occasions if i could hold aggro without it and i could. Now Im just feeling helpless. No threat changes as far as i can see so Im not sure whats going on.. Oh well... That little spell where wardens were fun again was nice. They could actually do their job well and could manage damage by putting up defenses like crazy.
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