Thread: Lore contradictions

If something is included that we absolutely know did not happen (say, Angmar rising again) then that is most definitely a contradiction. What else can it be?

What do you mean by that? If you mean something that Tolkien obviously never intentionally left room for in his narrative, the majority of LotRO's side stories would be "contradictions," but a "contradiction" is some event or detail that could not logically exist in the books, like Aragorn being a handicapped person without arms and being unable to regain those arms by some contrived means before his arms are again logically required for the story's events to take place. Unless the book specifically remarks on Frodo's legs being hairy, we don't know 100% that he did not shave his legs every night. We'd be hard-pressed to think of why he'd do such a thing, but if he shaved his legs every night in the game's lore and the book does not remark on his hairy legs, that's not a contradiction.

The Men who'd dwelt there had been entirely wiped out, we're told, so who are those guys supposed to be? That's a contradiction.

What if some of the Men of Angmar left that place previously, then all who remained in Angmar were wiped out, but then those men who went far away eventually returned to Angmar? Highly improbable. Not impossible. Not a contradiction.

And it's also one that doesn't really make much sense:

Not making much sense is something I agree with, and I appreciate your details that interpret the situation. Being contradictory, however, is another story.

This is waffle. Strength, weight and reach are very significant in fighting at close quarters, and Hobbits would be sadly lacking in all three. Being so much shorter than their opponents would not be an advantage in a straight fight. Let's have some common sense, here: how did David beat Goliath? Not by fighting him on even terms, that's for sure. Your would-be picture of hobbits shimmying about, dodging like they're in the Matrix is farcical.

I agree that it's "farcical" in the sense that it is highly unlikely. However, "farcical" in that sense does not mean impossible, and you need an impossibility to establish a logical contradiction. Perhaps the detail about the opponent being used to swinging toward like-heighted opponents would not be an advantage in even the remotest situations, and I was wrong to choose it. It's also certain that the hobbit would have numerous disadvantages in their role as a guardian. However, despite being severely impractical, it has to be "impossible" to create a contradiction. It might have a 0.0000000000000000000000000000 0000000000005% chance of ever being remotely feasible, but if that chance remains, you still don't have a contradiction.

Oh, and do remember that mithril mail wouldn't prevent its wearer from being injured altogether. You could still suffer blunt force trauma and have the mail forced into your flesh, both of which happened to Frodo in the book. If it had been a Troll that had speared him, as in the movie, then he'd have been very badly hurt, quite likely killed outright by having his internal organs ruptured by the force of such a blow. It happened very differently in the book, and the detail Tolkien provides is wholly plausible.

That's a good point, and it's true. A hobbit could be killed if they were struck directly by a troll if they were wearing mithril, however, I think that there is some possibility that it wouldn't kill them outright, just injure them, even if it were minimal, which you allowed for yourself also.

I suppose you could say that hobbit guardians are just as likely as player characters taking damage from a Blackwold by being hit with an arrow 50 times, but never dying. The entire system by which the game registers damage makes everything that happens completely improbable, however, one could just say every single arrow barely nicked the player's armor on the side. That's farcical in the sense that it would be totally improbable, but it is not logically impossible.

The only word for that is FAIL. Of course it'd be contradictory to have a sci-fi invasion in the middle of a traditionally-minded fantasy.

For something to be contradictory, there needs to be a detail for it to contradict. Would it be "contradictory" to reality for a unicorn to tear my door down this instant? No; the only thing it would contradict is my idea of reality. The only way it would "contradict" reality would be if there were a specific, inalienable law of the universe which said that unicorns cannot under any circumstances exist.

Genre is implied, not stated. The fact that Tolkien never applies those elements of science fiction to his universe heavily implies that no such elements could happen in his universe, but unless Tolkien logically ruled out the possibility with a statement like "Middle-earth is not a land where flying saucers can ever exist," a flying saucer flying over Middle-earth would not produce a contradiction. It would make no sense whatsoever, but we would not use a word that describes an objective concept, such as "contradiction." Rather, we would use a word which describes a subjective concept, like "stupid."

Whether something is "stupid" or not, as with any subjective label, would vary from person to person, even though everyone might happen to think something is "stupid." However, you can 100% absolutely tell whether something is "contradictory." A "contradiction" is just like saying 2+4 equals 8; it's one of the few claims against something being possible that is 100% provable. A "contradiction" is saying that your father IS human, and also saying that your father IS NOT human. A "contradiction" is not a completely ridiculous, farcical tale that happens outside the narration of the Lord of the Rings stories but does not specifically contradict details given by Tolkien. A "contradiction" is Saruman never changing his robes' colors, or more specifically, Saruman still having his white robes in situations where he was specifically mentioned as wearing his new robes.

The description of Bree's situation in the book leaves no room for somewhere like Trestlebridge.

You could very well be correct, but I'll have to find that part of the book and re-read it to see what you're talking about, and whether it allows any possibility of Man-made settlements outside Bree, Combe and Archet. My current understanding (based on the wiki article I read before I made my last post) was that it also allowed for some scattered settlements, but of course the only important thing is what Tolkien himself wrote.

Originally Posted by SeaofGlass

What do you mean by that? If you mean something that Tolkien obviously never intentionally left room for in his narrative, the majority of LotRO's side stories would be "contradictions," but a "contradiction" is some event or detail that could not logically exist in the books, like Aragorn being a handicapped person without arms and being unable to regain those arms by some contrived means before his arms are again logically required for the story's events to take place. Unless the book specifically remarks on Frodo's legs being hairy, we don't know 100% that he did not shave his legs every night. We'd be hard-pressed to think of why he'd do such a thing, but if he shaved his legs every night in the game's lore and the book does not remark on his hairy legs, that's not a contradiction.

What I mean is that if you change something big (rather than something low-key that could plausibly have happened but attracted little notice) then that is a plain contradiction. Angmar never rose again in Tolkien's version (as I said, it had served its purpose by having been the bane of the North-kingdom), whereas in Turbine's it does. Fair enough as an addition to the game (got to have some big bad for the player-characters to bash) but please, don't try to pretend it isn't contradicting Tolkien.

What if some of the Men of Angmar left that place previously, then all who remained in Angmar were wiped out, but then those men who went far away eventually returned to Angmar? Highly improbable. Not impossible. Not a contradiction.

And went where? Those who were west of the mountains were utterly crushed, and those remaining east of the mountains were set upon by the Northmen (who'd never liked them anyway) and finished off. If they'd fled into the far north, they'd have perished in the icy wastes there. It is a contradiction to have a people who were clearly said to have been entirely wiped out come back from the grave like that, a thousand years later.

I agree that it's "farcical" in the sense that it is highly unlikely. However, "farcical" in that sense does not mean impossible, and you need an impossibility to establish a logical contradiction. Perhaps the detail about the opponent being used to swinging toward like-heighted opponents would not be an advantage in even the remotest situations, and I was wrong to choose it. It's also certain that the hobbit would have numerous disadvantages in their role as a guardian. However, despite being severely impractical, it has to be "impossible" to create a contradiction. It might have a 0.0000000000000000000000000000 0000000000005% chance of ever being remotely feasible, but if that chance remains, you still don't have a contradiction.

The point is that hobbits didn't fight like that at all. No hobbit would have even tried, because they'd have been overborne and killed in no time flat. Being really small, they'd inevitably have been really light as well. Where hobbits were to be feared, once they got riled up, was their knack for guerrilla warfare: being stealthy, using cover, hit-and-run. They were really good archers, by all accounts. That was how the Tooks had kept Saruman's thugs off their land, by shooting any who dared trespass there from cover.

The hobbit yeomanry might have proven up to the task of seeing off a bunch of thugs (at least when led by a couple of semi-experienced, extra-tall hobbits who'd had the Miracle-Gro treatment courtesy of Treebeard) and could apparently see off some rabble of goblins too (again, when led by a freakishly tall and most unusually warlike hobbit) but if they'd ever been attacked properly, by Men or Uruks, they'd have stood absolutely no chance in open battle.

That's a good point, and it's true. A hobbit could be killed if they were struck directly by a troll if they were wearing mithril, however, I think that there is some possibility that it wouldn't kill them outright, just injure them, even if it were minimal, which you allowed for yourself also.

Trolls were hard enough for full-grown Men to deal with, let alone hobbits. Like poor old Beregond, who was hammered flat by a Troll at the Black Gate and would have been finished off by it if Merry hadn't intervened.

I suppose you could say that hobbit guardians are just as likely as player characters taking damage from a Blackwold by being hit with an arrow 50 times, but never dying. The entire system by which the game registers damage makes everything that happens completely improbable, however, one could just say every single arrow barely nicked the player's armor on the side. That's farcical in the sense that it would be totally improbable, but it is not logically impossible.

In that they're both aspects of weak game mechanics, yes. But while it's seemingly inevitable in this sort of game for mobs to take a lot of killing, it's not inevitable to have hobbits being a class for which they're so obviously unsuited.

It's rendered impossible by hobbits being so small. The game, however, takes no account of stature. That's the only thing that allows it to work.

Genre is implied, not stated. The fact that Tolkien never applies those elements of science fiction to his universe heavily implies that no such elements could happen in his universe, but unless Tolkien logically ruled out the possibility with a statement like "Middle-earth is not a land where flying saucers can ever exist," a flying saucer flying over Middle-earth would not produce a contradiction. It would make no sense whatsoever, but we would not use a word that describes an objective concept, such as "contradiction." Rather, we would use a word which describes a subjective concept, like "stupid."

Since Tolkien told us what his work was intended to be (a constructed body of interconnected myth and legend, with a Northern European flavour) a sudden eruption of science fiction would be inherently contradictory.

You could very well be correct, but I'll have to find that part of the book and re-read it to see what you're talking about, and whether it allows any possibility of Man-made settlements outside Bree, Combe and Archet. My current understanding (based on the wiki article I read before I made my last post) was that it also allowed for some scattered settlements, but of course the only important thing is what Tolkien himself wrote.

I'll save you the trouble: 'no other Men had dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire'. The existence of Trestlebridge contradicts that. Again, fine for game purposes but it's no good to pretend it's anything other than that.

We find Mallorn wood west of the Misty Mountains.

Elves in Lothlorien speak common.

The Rohirrim great others in Sindarin. That always jars my senses. Yes, I know about language crossover etc but it still annoys me.

Originally Posted by Galadh

We find Mallorn wood west of the Misty Mountains.

Are you talking about trees or just the wood from those trees? If it's the trees I'd like to know where they may be found. If it's just the wood, it could have been carried--probably by swallows.

Originally Posted by Khorgrim

The Rohirrim great others in Sindarin. That always jars my senses. Yes, I know about language crossover etc but it still annoys me.

I don't think that is a developer issue. I believe that is a programming issue. The NPC greetings were obviously intended to be used by members of the Grey Company, but were misapplied to the Rohirrim.

What do you mean?, an African or European swallow?.

Originally Posted by Morthaur

What do you mean?, an African or European swallow?.

What? I don't know! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

For those who are curious, the approximate airspeed velocity of an unladen (European) swallow is 24 MPH. I'm afraid there is insufficient data for crebain from Dunland.

Originally Posted by LoyKashka

Actually we have quite a bit of information on the subject. The Istari are Maiar spirits from Valinor. Their power is likely thier intrinsic nature but sharply limited by the Valar, who sent them as advisors against Sauron, not champions of good. All but Gandalf fell away from this purpose over time. Saruman's fall was more extreme than the others and resulted in him getting his power revoked, possibly by the Valar (sort of like getting impeached). Gandalf's spirit presumably returned to Valinor after he defeated the Balrog but was sent back with more freedom to act. He also may have been directed to speak with Saruman and pronounce judgment. If you want to know more, Unfinished Tales has a whole section on the wizards.

I haven't read Unfinished Tales, so forgive me if I've missed something, but I didn't think all of the Wizards bar Gandalf fell into evil. I remember reading somewhere about the Blue Wizards turning slightly corrupt I think, but no-where was Radagast described as falling from grace... in fact, I truly love the character of Radagat.

Originally Posted by Geindir

I haven't read Unfinished Tales, so forgive me if I've missed something, but I didn't think all of the Wizards bar Gandalf fell into evil. I remember reading somewhere about the Blue Wizards turning slightly corrupt I think, but no-where was Radagast described as falling from grace... in fact, I truly love the character of Radagat.

Radagast might not have 'fallen' like Saruman but he was a failure, he'd abandoned his mission and basically become a hippie. Flower power, man

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Radagast might not have 'fallen' like Saruman but he was a failure, he'd abandoned his mission and basically become a hippie. Flower power, man

You know especially after meeting ol' Rad in the game, I can't help but think of that song 'If I Could Talk To The Animals' whenever his name comes up. Heehee...

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Radagast might not have 'fallen' like Saruman but he was a failure, he'd abandoned his mission and basically become a hippie. Flower power, man

Hmmm, I'm not convinced by this... nowhere do we hear that Radagast has given up, and he does use his animal friends to take messages for the benefit of the Free Peoples.
I realise he is never described as actively taking part in the war of the Ring, but does that mean he had given up?
Again, not read Unfinished Tales so forgive me if i've missed something :L
(any more info on The Blue Wizards would be nice here )

Originally Posted by Geindir

Hmmm, I'm not convinced by this... nowhere do we hear that Radagast has given up, and he does use his animal friends to take messages for the benefit of the Free Peoples.
I realise he is never described as actively taking part in the war of the Ring, but does that mean he had given up?
Again, not read Unfinished Tales so forgive me if i've missed something :L
(any more info on The Blue Wizards would be nice here )

There isn't much info about them, as far as I know though we do know their names: Alatar and Pallando.

Lets hope the Devs don't forget that the Blue Wizards -- who now appear to be on the side of the Easterlings who have set their will against us -- helped to imprison the Balrog in the Rift. Perhaps that was before they fell from grace? In any case, I'm hoping these two play a large role in the future of LOTRO as they could be fascinating enemies to confront.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Radagast might not have 'fallen' like Saruman but he was a failure, he'd abandoned his mission and basically become a hippie.

In my opinion the failure wasn't Radagast's but the Valar who sent him. As evidenced by his name in the West, Aiwendil ('lover of birds'), Radagast was a hippie long before he ever left Aman.

One that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned(unless it's been changed since I started my burglar) is the hobbit tutorial, wherein you meet some certain hobbits on their way out of the Shire and help them hide from a nazgul, even though this is an explicit contradiction. (In the books, they are stated to have met nobody, and to have run into no trouble until much farther on the road)

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

In my opinion the failure wasn't Radagast's but the Valar who sent him. As evidenced by his name in the West, Aiwendil ('lover of birds'), Radagast was a hippie long before he ever left Aman.

This is true. Yavanna certainly wasn't the wisest of the Valar

There are tonnes, but they don't really bother me since its impossible to make a good MMO with something as restrictive as Tolkien's lore.

I can look pass a lot of things, and some of the twists in the lore are a breath of fresh air, others... not so much. But hey! Consider this as a different dimension devised by Eru :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Wizards

Good article on the Blue Wizards. A little more complete than the LOTR based wikis.


also, Radagast may have actually fulfilled his mission and returned:

Tolkien wrote that he gave up his mission as one of the Wizards by becoming too obsessed with animals and plants. Tolkien also wrote that he did not believe that Radagast's failure was as great as Saruman's and that he may eventually have been allowed (or chosen) to return to the Undying Lands.[4] However, Christopher Tolkien notes in Unfinished Tales that the assumption that Radagast failed in his task may not be entirely accurate considering that he was specifically chosen by Yavanna, and he may have been assigned to protect the flora and fauna of Middle-Earth, a task that would not end with the defeat of Sauron and the end of the War of the Ring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radagast

The Professor allowed that Radagast may have eventually gone back, that's good enough for me.

In this interview, Kate Paiz, LOTRO’s Executive Producer, states that in the upcoming Riders of Rohan expansion our war-horse mounts will be mearas. According to Théoden, “There is none like to Shadowfax. In him one of the mighty steeds of old has returned. None such shall return again.” (‘The King of the Golden Hall’, The Two Towers.)

If you’ve seen Dol Guldur you’ve probably noticed the nine Nazgûl circling the high tower on their winged steeds. If there are any Nazgûl at Dol Guldur there should only be two. In Unfinished Tales it states,

Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron’s lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.

(The phrase “at that time” refers to the time before the Nazgûl began their search for the Ring.)

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

In this interview, Kate Paiz, LOTRO’s Executive Producer, states that in the upcoming Riders of Rohan expansion our war-horse mounts will be mearas. According to Théoden, “There is none like to Shadowfax. In him one of the mighty steeds of old has returned. None such shall return again.” (‘The King of the Golden Hall’, The Two Towers.)

I don't see this as such a large lore contradiction. In the chapter "The White Rider" (almost at the end) Gandlaf says "That is Shadowfax. He is the chief of the Mearas...." This suggests there are others but Shadowfax is preeminent amongst them. When they arrive at the Golden Hall even the guards say "He is one of the Mearas" which again suggests there are more than one but Shadowfax is the "Epic" model that none of us can have.

Originally Posted by tuor66

I don't see this as such a large lore contradiction. In the chapter "The White Rider" (almost at the end) Gandlaf says "That is Shadowfax. He is the chief of the Mearas...." This suggests there are others but Shadowfax is preeminent amongst them. When they arrive at the Golden Hall even the guards say "He is one of the Mearas" which again suggests there are more than one but Shadowfax is the "Epic" model that none of us can have.

The real lore howler there would be having them being ridden by player-characters. While there were evidently quite a number of them (a sustainable breeding population), the mearas were wild horses and couldn't be broken - they'd only allow the Lord of the Mark or his sons to ride them.

I started a new character the other day, and while I like the scenary, the notion of Kheledul and sea going dwarves is somewhat ridiculous, where would they sail to anyway?.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The real lore howler there would be having them being ridden by player-characters. While there were evidently quite a number of them (a sustainable breeding population), the mearas were wild horses and couldn't be broken - they'd only allow the Lord of the Mark or his sons to ride them.

.... and one Wizard

Originally Posted by Morthaur

I started a new character the other day, and while I like the scenary, the notion of Kheledul and sea going dwarves is somewhat ridiculous, where would they sail to anyway?.

I don't see Dwarves being comfortable without rock underneath their feet. I could see them using boats as a way to move goods faster than caravan but getting out of sight of land ? I doubt it.

Regardless (irregardless if you are dumb) of all of this, what makes me smile is the fact that I have seen and done amazing things in Middle Earth and yet I still come back to the Shire regularly to grow barley, coffee, leeks, etc.

Originally Posted by tuor66

.... and one Wizard

Yeah, but he's just cool like that

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Radagast might not have 'fallen' like Saruman but he was a failure, he'd abandoned his mission and basically become a hippie. Flower power, man

My memory fails me somewhat in this area, but Radagast may not of failed, (sorry for the memory loss ) but he was a Maia of the valar Yavanna that had a love for animals. So he may of been sent as a warden of said animals. ( I do remember reading this in one of the Professors letters, lost tales or unfinished tales, heres hoping someone with a better memory can fill in my blank spots)

My knowledge of Middle-Earth is pretty limited(the animated Hobbit movie as a kid, Lotr movies and books). But I haven't heard of the Dourhand(sp?) Dwarves before.

Originally Posted by Dawnn

My memory fails me somewhat in this area, but Radagast may not of [sic] failed...

I'm afraid your memory has failed. In November 1954, in a letter to Robert Murray, Tolkien wrote that Gandalf was “with the other Istari, wizards, ‘those who know’, an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon”. The Istari were primarily sent to “train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths." He further wrote that the "wizards were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). “ (156, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.)

Perhaps you missed this exchange earlier in thread:

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Radagast might not have 'fallen' like Saruman but he was a failure, he'd abandoned his mission and basically become a hippie. Flower power, man

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

In my opinion the failure wasn't Radagast's but the Valar who sent him. As evidenced by his name in the West, Aiwendil ('lover of birds'), Radagast was a hippie long before he ever left Aman.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

This is true. Yavanna certainly wasn't the wisest of the Valar

While Radagast may have remained true to himself and his nature, as suggested by my jest about him being a hippy before he left Aman, he failed to fulfil the purpose for which he was sent. For more information see the chapter entitled ‘The Istari’ in Unfinished Tales.

Regarding Dol Guldur, besides the strike after Sauron's fall, there was also a White Council pre-emptive strike that occurred before the ring had resurfaced (per the Silmarrillion). That would still put it before the events of LOTRO, but would likely have involved Lothlorien.

With respect to Hobbits in armor, Merridoc became a soldier of Rohan and Pippin became a soldier of Gondor. Pippin killed a troll in the final battle, albeit ending up trapped under it.

I can't remember what either was fitted for with armor, but Gondor uses heavy armor. Size is a tricky thing in a fantasy environment. Dwarves are small in stature too, yet a strong race. They are simply built that way.

As for Saruman losing his power, I figure he lost it by way of losing morale from too many gazes into the Palantir. If stripping a maiar of power was as simple as breaking a staff, or otherwise willing them demoted, Sauron wouldn't have been a problem at all. He would have been as weak as Saruman. Ditto the Balrog. Gandalf could have just broke its weapon and made it mortal.

Since that didn't happen, it is reasonable to conclude there was some other factor in there. We have reason to believe that Saruman was affected by Sauron via the Palantir. Denethor committed suicide and was ready to kill his son too, not to mention abandoning Gondor in its time of need. Saruman was maiar, but was demoralized not just by Sauron. He also lost his home to walking kindling, lost his job to someone he considered inferior, and couldn't even hold the Shire. He likely just gave up and let himself be killed.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

While Radagast may have remained true to himself and his nature, as suggested by my jest about him being a hippy before he left Aman, he failed to fulfil the purpose for which he was sent. For more information see the chapter entitled ‘The Istari’ in Unfinished Tales.

We don't really see anything of Radagast in LOTR, though. He could have been preserving nature against Sauron's corruption. A major reason for the limited mandate was the property damage done in the prior war. Therefore is it not reasonable to conclude that one of the Istari would have been assigned the role of environmentalist?

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

There's a load of stuff; adapting something like LOTR into a game makes it inevitable. Big stuff, too. There's the whole Angmar thing, for starters. Then there's the idea of the Dwarves even attempting to retake Moria at that time. The Elves of Lorien raiding Dol Guldur. The Grey Company hanging about on their way south, instead of riding hell for leather. Undead everywhere you look. Ditto for Oathbreakers (something that contradicts what Tolkien said about what happened to the spirits of dead Men). Direct threats within the Shire from the very start. And a whole host of minor details, like the goats, how casually lembas is treated, and the prevalence of plate armour rather than mail.

I could go on but that's enough to give a flavour. And that's without mentioning the contradictions raised by the player-characters themselves.

Actually, Dol Guldur was raided by the elves, about the day after Sauron died, Galadriel herself teared down the walls, I agree with everything else

Originally Posted by Torweld

Therefore is it not reasonable to conclude that one of the Istari would have been assigned the role of environmentalist?

Reasonable, perhaps, if you or I had authored LOTR. However, if you read the quotation from Letters in my previous post you’ll note that communing with nature was not the task of the Istari, rather, they were sent to “train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths.” My quotation also includes Tolkien's statement that "Gandalf alone fully passes the tests". I don't think it could be stated much clearer than that.

Originally Posted by Andunion

Actually, Dol Guldur was raided by the elves, about the day after Sauron died, Galadriel herself teared down the walls, I agree with everything else

I know that, the point was that they don't go anywhere near the place before Sauron's fall.

On a whole one can find many contradictions in this game if you don't manage your own quest line,
If Turbine had set this game say 1000 years after the War of the rings then they would have poetic licence to "base a story and world" on Tolkien's lore,

But then we would never meet the Hippy wizard Radagast the brown, or any other of the lotr heroes that are in this game.

I think if you want to tread in the footsteps of the fellowship's path then it's going to be down to you to your own discipline.

After all this is an MMO not a single player game so will be hard to stay on track to Tolkien lore.

My main gripe with this game being contrdictory is the introduction of the race of people that is known as "The Earth Kin" but after my own research into this race I concluded that the title of this game should of been called

"Middle Earth : a game world based on J.R.R Tolkien's book The Lord of the Ring's"

And set the timeline in the 5th age so turbine could invent anything they liked.

I don't know maybe if turbine had done this then maybe we would all have eagles to fly around on rather than slow ground mount's.

Originally Posted by BungoGamgee

And set the timeline in the 5th age so turbine could invent anything they liked.

I think you're missing the point there, the later ages get progressively less fantastic. The Elves leave or 'fade' to become bodiless spirits, the Dwarves go extinct and the hobbits get progressively smaller and more furtive as they're crowded out by Men. So you'd get less choice, not more. And after Sauron there were no more big, nasty immortal evils, it was all on a human scale so that means less interesting enemies, too.

I don't know maybe if turbine had done this then maybe we would all have eagles to fly around on rather than slow ground mount's.

Take a look in the Suggestion forum and see what's happened to every single suggestion of that. That would never get any more acceptable, because of what the Eagles represent.

There are contradictions and departures everywhere. The game is what it is, a game based on the Lord of the Rings and Tolkeins mythology. The fact that you have thousands of Elves running around Eriador is in its self a contradiction. Nowhere does it say that Bree isn't brimming with Elf lords and Dwarven warriors ready to knock seven shades out of anything mildly evil looking. I'd venture, though, that if this were the case Frodo would have had a lot less trouble in both the Barrow Downs and Bree. A hoard of battle thirsty Elves like you see on LotRO could probably sort all of Eriador's problems out in a few short weeks if they felt like it. (That's... hyperbole but you catch my drift).

I think it's impossible to make a fun game in a lore friendly Middle Earth. No one is exceptional in LotR, that is almost entirely the point and attraction of the stories. The greatest heroes of the time are two halflings who just about stumble their way up a volcano. All the greatest attributes of the stand out charachters, Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Gandalf for example are really rather subtle. Obviously Gandalf is a wizard which is fairly in your face, but the way in which he acts as puppet master for the "good team" throughout the stories is his real purpose and it is rather unnoticed and unpraised by his contemporaries. Similarly Aragorn's a decent enough soldier but his presence and ability to inspire hope and rally men is his real talent, something that wouldn't be very fun to play in an MMO. Frodo and Sam can't take on hordes of enemies in combat, but they have huge force of will and determination. LotRO wouldn't be very good if as a Hobbit your main talent is being able to walk really, really far in the face of adversity.

Turbine have struck a good balance I think. We, as gamers, accept that we are not really in an authentic Arda, and Turbine accept that as long as it's enjoyable, we'll suspend disbelief for them. It's like watching a film. We'll accept that German WW2 officers speak to eachother in English, with a German accent, so long as the film makers accept that we don't want to read subtitles. (this analogy doesn't really apply to everyone, nor does it reflect my view... but it sums up my point I think).

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Reasonable, perhaps, if you or I had authored LOTR. However, if you read the quotation from Letters in my previous post you’ll note that communing with nature was not the task of the Istari, rather, they were sent to “train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths.” My quotation also includes Tolkien's statement that "Gandalf alone fully passes the tests". I don't think it could be stated much clearer than that.

Although as revealed in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien did, much later on his life, begin formulating a scheme wherein the two Blue Wizards did not fail either, but accomplished absolutely critical goals in the East. Not that this is necessarily the same as "fully passing the tests", or that it excuses Radagast himself.

Originally Posted by BIGeyedBUG

Although as revealed in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien did, much later on his life, begin formulating a scheme...

Tolkien was constantly changing his mind about what he had written. If you take into account every change that Tolkien made to his mythology throughout the years you can very quickly become confused.

For instance, one change that Tolkien considered late in life was the transformation of Arda from flat to round that occurs with the sinking of Númenor and the removal of Aman. Tolkien thought that perhaps Arda should have always been round. Obviously, a revision of that magnitude greatly changes the history of Arda.

For the sake of consistency, if not sanity, one must remember that the materials that appear in The History of Middle-earth, of which The Peoples of Middle-earth is just one volume, are merely drafts and should not be considered canon.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

For the sake of consistency, if not sanity, one must remember that the materials that appear in The History of Middle-earth, of which The Peoples of Middle-earth is just one volume, are merely drafts and should not be considered canon.

Agreed. There's so much up for debate as to which versions and meanings Tolkien considered to be the "real" ones and which make the most sense there's never really straight answers.

Is Glorfindel Glorfindel? Do Balrogs have wings? Who is Tom Bombadil...