Thread: A bone to pick with Legendary Items

This has been on my mind for a couple years now, and I've finally decided to make a post about this. This is covering both PvE and PvP.



Overview of Legendary Items

"Forced" Weapon Customization

Legendary Items allow you to customize stats on a class item and a class weapon. They also require leveling, which takes more time out of casual gamers schedules because you have to get them to a certain level just to get decent results. They are also something I believe Turbine kept in because they're making lots of money off of items for these via LOTRO Store.






What's wrong with Legendary Items?

I know you like green, but I'm going to force you to use blue!

There's no decent alternative! Why is there no alternative item? I'd love to see items that are just as good but aren't LI's. Right now, you're forced to use Legendary Items! Would if the player doesn't want to customize their weapon? Not everyone wants to. Why not offer an alternative item of decent value? I have seen something similar to a alternative item, but they are nowhere near decent!

What ever happened to walking into a weapons shop and buying a sword and keeping it as simple as that? I can only imagine how much worse this game would get if they forced you to customize every piece of your armour... Most people just blindly look past and ignore these things because it's "Lord of the Rings". I'll admit it is easy to overlook bad game mechanics simply because you're a fan of the lore and all of that.


Overall I have very few complaints about LI's because they allow the player to customize their weapons. This is great if the person HAS the time. Some people do not have the time to go out of their way to collect relics and buy 100g items just to keep a single weapon useful that they're clearly going to get rid of very soon as more game content comes out is insane! Let's say you got a first ager and you just maxed it out for PvE and PvP use and then you have to get rid of it and buy an even better one fairly soon after.






Legendary Items ARE currently the largest contributor to PvMP imbalancement

Disable LI's in PvMP...

LI's are powerful. They're good (too good). They make fighting in the Ettenmoors almost not challenging Freepside. I used to use first agers in the Ettenmoors on my freep and I had absolutely no challenge, and the Creeps would complain about this for good reason. Even second agers make Freep damage way way more.

You know what I find funny? Turbine doesn't force people to use fixed stat weapons in the Ettenmoors because they haven't added it to the class trader. They should add a weapon for every rank at each class trader so people are forced to use fixed stats instead of going out there as god-moders and then complaining about it being too easy. This is also one of the reasons I have discontinued my usage of Legendary Items in the Ettenmoors. They're too powerful and they rob the fun out of it. I want Creeps to find me and know they have a chance of beating me! This makes it a challenge for myself and allows both myself and the Creep I'm up against to have fun (both parties have fun this way).

The reason I think I might be the minority (aside from the Creeps though) in this one is because most Freep players are EZ-moders. They have almost no skill and are just plain terrible at their class! So they will do everything it takes to argue that LI's aren't too powerful, when in reality the only reason they get kills is because they basically 3 shot their enemies regardless of their rank and couldn't get single kill if required to use skill and strategy like Creepside is pretty much forced to do.

If you disagree with this you might also consider that PvMP armour is weaker for a reason. They are trying to balance the sides and I think they should do so with weapons as well. Word is that they are going to force the use of PvMP gear in the Ettenmoors and I think this is a great idea! Now to fix the weapon problem...

I am not suggested at all that they remove legendary items, but that they block them from use in PvMP.






They take too long to level now that content comes out faster

Speed it up if we replace them often!

The speed of leveling LI's was fine before Turbine announced they'll be releasing content a lot faster! Look at the soon to be raised cap to 85 already! The main concern here is getting your LI almost to max and immediately having to replace it with a new higher cap LI. Isn't that kind of... asking too much of the players? I mean you didn't even give the players that maxed them out enough time to enjoy the spoils of their labour! I don't think that's fair to the players that spent all that time doing this!







Like it? Don't like it? Post a reply explaining why. Discuss.

I have no argument about the relative power of LI's compared to their non-legendary equivalents, but I suspect the 'customisation' is an afterthought that has been retrofitted onto them. It is only recently that you have become able to choose a LI's traits at whim. Formerly you were forced to live with the best one of two random choices you got each level.

Non-legendary weapons are available in all flavours at most level points, eg. 60, 65, 75. Just ask an appropriate crafter for one. However, given their relative feebleness compared to their legendary equivalents, there is more-or-less no market for them. The only use I have seen for them to date is non-legendary bows to non-hunters eg. guardians and champions.

Given that the 'leading edge' of the game is currently obessed with obtaining the hard-to-get( 12 decent players at your beck and call) symbols needed for the latest and greatest LI's, we just have to live with it. LI's are now the central focus for most of the player base. Removing them probably isn't an option. However, I do believe game designers should be woken up and whipped until players are forced to think about how to build a LI again. There should be no obvious 'best' build for a LI.

Non-legendary weapons are available in all flavours at most level points, eg. 60, 65, 75. Just ask an appropriate crafter for one. However, given their relative feebleness compared to their legendary equivalents, there is more-or-less no market for them. The only use I have seen for them to date is non-legendary bows to non-hunters eg. guardians and champions.

I've seen them. Like I said, nothing decent is available non-legendary.

LI's are now the central focus for most of the player base. Removing them probably isn't an option.

I don't want them removed, just barred from use in the Ettenmoors. I like them for PvE use, actually.

I do believe game designers should be woken up and whipped until players are forced to think about how to build a LI again. There should be no obvious 'best' build for a LI.

No argument there.

I agree entirely that the LI system has some issues at the moment. I

1.) By the time you get the new LIs for some of your chars ( i only have two end game and just yet got decent LIs for both - second age lvl 75s) the next level increase comes and TADA they are useless again. The only ones i know that have LIs for all chars in usefull time are the hardcore players that never sleep. For any other it is hard as hell. this leads me to point 2

2.) LI system is broken and kept that way because it is a wonderfull source of income. You dont want to grind but you want the best weapon? Swipe your credit card and you get the ultimate LI in seconds. How much one costs im even afraid to ask. Probably in the 20$ zone maybe more.

3.) The only broken part that is not necesarely a source of income is the fact that for some classes there is ONE good legacy combination for a role. Lets face it some legacies are really bad and useless. I actually think all hunters use the same legacies :P. Minnies to in 90% and those are the classes i have experience in.

4.) Not only the LI system unbalances ettens. Its multifactorial.

So as long as management doesnt say <Weve milked the customers enough, lets throw them a bone> the devs will not have any way of designing a better system. It has actually been said numerous times, but maybe if we say it more and more somethign will change.

Originally Posted by Landrovas

So as long as management doesnt say <Weve milked the customers enough, lets throw them a bone> the devs will not have any way of designing a better system. It has actually been said numerous times, but maybe if we say it more and more somethign will change.

Saying something is useless. As long as enough customers are playing the game. As long as enough customers are buying Legendary Item support products from the store.. Nothing is going to happen.

All the following must happen:

1) Players have to refuse to buy Legendary Item support products from the Lotro Store.

2) Players have to go play a different game. In the leaving feedback state the Legendary Item system is the cause.

3) A lot of players have to raise a constant high level of noise on the forums.

If all Turbine sees is a bunch of players complaining on the forums. Money is rolling in from sale of support products. Players are coming. All you are going to get is a polite - Go away. Turbine will be happy to change the player mix to non complainers that accept the system as is.

IMHO - Turbine already completed the transition to customers willing to use the system as is. Most of the folks of the folks that I know that hate the legendary item system. They left.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

All the following must happen:

1) Players have to refuse to buy Legendary Item support products from the Lotro Store.

Yes I know what you're getting at, and it's a pretty good point, but Turbine wouldn't be removing LI's completely, and they could make it so the instances pretty much require you to have one. See, these things are great for PvE, but they're killing PvP. I don't think something like this necessarily requires a strike.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Saying something is useless. As long as enough customers are playing the game. As long as enough customers are buying Legendary Item support products from the store.. Nothing is going to happen.

All the following must happen:

1) Players have to refuse to buy Legendary Item support products from the Lotro Store.

2) Players have to go play a different game. In the leaving feedback state the Legendary Item system is the cause.

3) A lot of players have to raise a constant high level of noise on the forums.

If all Turbine sees is a bunch of players complaining on the forums. Money is rolling in from sale of support products. Players are coming. All you are going to get is a polite - Go away. Turbine will be happy to change the player mix to non complainers that accept the system as is.

IMHO - Turbine already completed the transition to customers willing to use the system as is. Most of the folks of the folks that I know that hate the legendary item system. They left.

I have never bought an LI support thingie on the store and that reflects on me being almost the last in my kin to get super LIs :P but i manage since i play for other sources of fun. But the grind is ridiculous with or without store items.

Store is supposed to be a convenience but its becoming a thing where you think like this: I have two choices, one is to grind my life away and not pay, and teh other is to grind less but pay. Well more and more are opting for choice no3, play another game or god forbid go and play in the park (for those who cant remember a park is that outdoor thing with trees and benches :P).

For the moment i find myself having enought time to be grinding both TP for content and ingame grind for stuff. But soon enough i will not have that amount of time anymore and guess what? I wont buy VIP since its very very bad for money. Ill do choice 3 and find something else to do. I know for sure hardcore gamers have at least one big title that offers ALL the game with one payment.

So Trubine either listen to the unhappy customers and change your value for money or go on the same milking the credit card cow and suffer an uncertain future. And one of teh most annoying milking strats is the LI system. Plus did Gandalf shatter his staff every few moments just because it wasnt fab anymore? Nah i dont think so.

EDIT: Oh and id rather not be pushed out of the game by bad marketing, i really like this game and its comunity....so few bad things may ruin such a great experience....i still have hope Turbine is just recovering from a rough time and is forced into this kinds of tactics, thus making it just temporary. Dont blow my hopes please....

Originally Posted by Graycient

They take too long to level now that content comes out faster

The speed of leveling LI's was fine before Turbine announced they'll be releasing content a lot faster! Look at the soon to be raised cap to 85 already! The main concern here is getting your LI almost to max and immediately having to replace it with a new higher cap LI. Isn't that kind of... asking too much of the players? I mean you didn't even give the players that maxed them out enough time to enjoy the spoils of their labour! I don't think that's fair to the players that spent all that time doing this!

My thought about all this has always been, dont start no grind, wont be no grind. You're not required to max out your LI to be effective. You can, but you're not required to. The difference between a casually leveled LI and a ground-down maxed-out LI is marginal, really. A couple extra percentage points to a handful of skills. A little extra power efficiency. A few seconds less cooldown on one or two skills. Its very, very, very rarely going to ever prove the difference between success and failure.

Almost everyone who complains about LIs are in a hell of their own making. If they could look at their LIs, see an "8/9", and not go completely OCD about squeezing out that last tier, they'd enjoy the game a lot more

And, if you want to argue that a maxed-out one is required for T2C raiding, I'll point out that you get a buttload of marks doing instances anyway, marks that you cant spend on raid sets, but you can spend on LI advancement.

Originally Posted by droid

My thought about all this has always been, dont start no grind, wont be no grind. You're not required to max out your LI to be effective. You can, but you're not required to. The difference between a casually leveled LI and a ground-down maxed-out LI is marginal, really. A couple extra percentage points to a handful of skills. A little extra power efficiency. A few seconds less cooldown on one or two skills. Its very, very, very rarely going to ever prove the difference between success and failure.

Almost everyone who complains about LIs are in a hell of their own making. If they could look at their LIs, see an "8/9", and not go completely OCD about squeezing out that last tier, they'd enjoy the game a lot more

And, if you want to argue that a maxed-out one is required for T2C raiding, I'll point out that you get a buttload of marks doing instances anyway, marks that you cant spend on raid sets, but you can spend on LI advancement.

Tell that to the PvPers...

Originally Posted by Graycient

Tell that to the PvPers...

This is true.

I know very few players who max out everything on their class for PvE. I know I didn't. Freeps build their classes to such extents so that they can smash faces in PvMP, and now look how much of a joke PvMP is.

The problem is not the fact it is or it is not necesary to grind. The problem is that a system with less grind IS POSSIBLE yet it is not implemented due to finacial reasons. Pay and your time is freed to actually play the game and enjoy it (yes some actually enjoy doing hard end game content which is only possible with great gear).

If you enjoy being herded into buying stuff only because a flawed system is in place then what on earth can I say....shut up and give them your money ;-). I dont enjoy it since i have a very keen eye for bad value for money so i chose not to support this kind of thnigs.

Really if the current players see no flaw in the way LOTRO manages microtransactions, subscriptions and expansions then well....what can i say....but ask yourselves how much you spent on this game. Im assuming some will turn up with even a 4 digits number. And THATS not normal.

So again, gives us the promised LI no 2 it would be such a big marketing hit that it will balance the loss in microtransactions. And my god the satisfaction it would bring ;-). And to get ahead of possible replies, no dont make it easy for all to get the best LIs, just easier for those whom have the skill not for those who have the cash. Or even both i dont care. Just eliminate the need to destroy items we have worked for and make a way to carry them over.

Originally Posted by Landrovas

So again, gives us the promised LI no 2 it would be such a big marketing hit that it will balance the loss in microtransactions.

I doubt that very much. Selling LI amenities in the Store has got to be a huge cash cow for Turbine and (I'm guessing) their biggest seller by far. The sound of my Level 60 First Age weapon deconstructing was enough to get me to step off the LI hamster wheel, but I neither raid nor PvP, so I probably care about grinding LIs less than most.

I'd love to see the LI system redesigned in the same manner as we rank up skirmish soldiers, and there are several excellent suggestions in the forums on how that could be done. However, I don't think that will be happening any time soon, if ever. I seriously doubt that Turbine will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs--not unless they find a bigger goose that lays bigger eggs.

Originally Posted by bigsix66

I doubt that very much. Selling LI amenities in the Store has got to be a huge cash cow for Turbine and (I'm guessing) their biggest seller by far. The sound of my Level 60 First Age weapon deconstructing was enough to get me to step off the LI hamster wheel, but I neither raid nor PvP, so I probably care about grinding LIs less than most.

I'd love to see the LI system redesigned in the same manner as we rank up skirmish soldiers, and there are several excellent suggestions in the forums on how that could be done. However, I don't think that will be happening any time soon, if ever. I seriously doubt that Turbine will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs--not unless they find a bigger goose that lays bigger eggs.

Another moment that would get Turbine to let the golden goose fly would be the customer boiling point. Its profitable to maintain a mechanic that is surrounded by criticism as long as it doesnt greatly affect the image of the product. So i take it if they know how to do business (and i assume they do since they introduced a succesful f2p model) they will at one point opt for increasing product quality in one place and find another source of income to balance that (then ofc wait for THAT sourec of income to become criticised and so on). And if they have any common sense in marketing they should start improving on the LI with Riders of Rohan expansion. If they gamble and introduce yet more time and money sinks in what is already a stale and non-inovative climat then the bubble will burst and they will will not see the same numbers Isengard had in sales.

So Trubine listen to the public and go back to being inovative in the busines, dont go the way of cheap asian MMOs, you know better than that.

Originally Posted by Landrovas

(yes some actually enjoy doing hard end game content which is only possible with great gear).

What is there in the game that is possible only with completely maxed out first agers, but is totally impossible with only mostly-maxed first agers?

Great gear, yes, but most ideal possible gear, no, and you can achieve "great" gear, in the timeframe of the LI replacement cycle, without having to grind the hamster wheel excessively. There is some luck involved with getting some desired legacies at T3+ on ID/reforge, but worst case scenario you're looking at 6 T2 legacies, that's 6*4=24 total upgrades to get everything to T6.

4 come with reforges, usually you'll get a new scroll of empowerment and delving from the Epic line, you might have a couple one-point wonders like stats or certain class legacies that you dont actually need to upgrade, so depending on how many favorable rolls you get on ID/reforge, you're looking at maybe only 5-10 scrolls over a 6 month period to max a given LI.

In the time it takes you to even just earn your new Second or First age item after the level cap goes up, you're going to have earned enough marks and medallions/new rep tokens doing endgame content to buy one or two of the new empowerment scrolls. That shouldnt leave too much left to get your most important legacies maxed.

Its grindy to max them out, yes, but not grindy just to get your weapon up to a functional level.

I really have a hard time understanding why would someone argue less grind is bad, or for that matter try to convince others (and themselves it seems) that there is little grind in this game. I would actually think any "please make less grind and let us enjoy the game" thread would be met with aplause. But it seems many of the players are hamsters on a wheel.

For all who seem to thinks things are "OK" they are not. There is TP grind, crafting grind, armour triple grind, LI grind, gold grind, ettens grind and who knows what grind i actually missed. So if each taken separately it might not seem like a big thing well when you put them all togheter IT IS a big thing.

And ok, let there be grind...but i think its in the detriment of the consumer to allow some to just pay to remove the grind. And yes i will probably get a reply from a vip saying "Omg we pay that much money ofc we deserve not to grind".

@Droid: The thing about grind in the end is the fact that if player X has the very very best gear it no longer means he is a good player with skill. It means he investem more time/money in his gear. So no longer does one have the satisfaction of having awesome pieces of gear he got while doing something utterly difficult. He just cashes up or spends a week 24/7 playing and well...he gets it. That was the fear when Turbine streamlined the rewards system and it seems that this is the path we will be taking: cash/free time make it easier to get best gear not skill.

The problem is that a system with less grind IS POSSIBLE yet it is not implemented due to finacial reasons.

Surely they must be making money off of VIPers. If they did this they'd still be making the money because way more people PvE than the people that PvP. On Free People toons there's only a small fraction that PvP on Freepside.

For all who seem to thinks things are "OK" they are not. There is TP grind, crafting grind, armour triple grind, LI grind, gold grind, ettens grind and who knows what grind i actually missed. So if each taken separately it might not seem like a big thing well when you put them all togheter IT IS a big thing.

This is true..



Guys, just a reminder: Keep in mind I'm not suggesting removing them from the game So Turbine would still be making money off of them. Comment related to the grind on the other hand: I'm not suggesting removing the grind, but rather adding LI XP rewards to more quests than they already have. They don't have to go overboard, but there aren't enough quests with those.

Originally Posted by Graycient

Comment related to the grind on the other hand: I'm not suggesting removing the grind, but rather adding LI XP rewards to more quests than they already have. They don't have to go overboard, but there aren't enough quests with those.

Wait a bit.....your only issue is you level them slow? like just the leveling from 1-70? I surely must have read the opening post wrng cuz i thought the fact you just have to get a new one every 8-12 months or so was the issue. Hmmmm nevertheless the flaws of the system have been pointed out numerous times.

Originally Posted by Landrovas

Wait a bit.....your only issue is you level them slow? like just the leveling from 1-70? I surely must have read the opening post wrng cuz i thought the fact you just have to get a new one every 8-12 months or so was the issue. Hmmmm nevertheless the flaws of the system have been pointed out numerous times.

How did you come to a conclusion that that was my only issue? I split the topic into different things about the LI's that I didn't like. Above post was saying that for the topic "too slow leveling" I wasn't suggesting getting rid of a grind, but suggesting a different way of leveling it faster.

Originally Posted by Graycient

How did you come to a conclusion that that was my only issue? I split the topic into different things about the LI's that I didn't like. Above post was saying that for the topic "too slow leveling" I wasn't suggesting getting rid of a grind, but suggesting a different way of leveling it faster.

I was sincerely afraid I didnt read your first post with enough attention :P. And the grind I was refering to was the grind for teh right legacies, the empowerement scrolls and the fact that you do it one for every second age LI, then if your lucky you repeat for a first age LI, you multiply that by 2 (or 3 or 4 depending on class), you multiply that by the number of end-game chars you have (some even have 7). In all this yes at one point even the LIXP is a problem since if you have chars already topped off you will have e hard time leveling all those LIs (good at least that when u deconstruct the old ones you get a hefty amount of LIXP)

Originally Posted by Landrovas

I was sincerely afraid I didnt read your first post with enough attention :P. And the grind I was refering to was the grind for teh right legacies, the empowerement scrolls and the fact that you do it one for every second age LI, then if your lucky you repeat for a first age LI, you multiply that by 2 (or 3 or 4 depending on class), you multiply that by the number of end-game chars you have (some even have 7). In all this yes at one point even the LIXP is a problem since if you have chars already topped off you will have e hard time leveling all those LIs (good at least that when u deconstruct the old ones you get a hefty amount of LIXP)

Oh, okay, I see what you mean. No argument from me :P