Thread: experianced players only.. what came first the chicken or the egg..?

This is a very common thread i see constantly , i hear the comment experianced players only on various runs...
BUt how do new players get experiance lest we forget the new players are the lifeblood of the server .
My answer would be to say to join a newly formed kinship what do you guys think.
I know kinships arent for everyone but what are your thoughts.
I was personally taught to play the game by some very patient nice people and now i try to repay the time they took to teach me the mechanics of the game to others .
this is an mmo .thank you in advance for your comments.

I think this is a great point. I think the players to whom you refer are of course free to group only with those they consider "properly geared and traited" or sufficiently experienced, but that group of players isolates itself if a player learning how to defeat certain instances is not occasionally allowed to come along. I guess it's the expectation of being able to count on another quick run for those emblems or whatever without the worry that someone might do something "wrong" and make it more difficult. Not knocking that playstyle, but it's not the point for me personally.

My first experience with a group in this game was actually a lot like what you are getting at. Someone was looking for help with Evendim's friendly turtle, and I didn't know any better so I said I'd try to help. He thought that was great even though I was a couple levels below what a guard for that dungeon should be, realistically, and heaven knows what I was wearing for armor at that stage in my learning curve. I waited a while for him to gather a full group, and once inside I realized I was the lowbie, and that we had two 50's along. I certainly would not have survived it otherwise, playing my guard to the hilt as I do, pulling aggro off of everyone but the 50 Dwarf champ--not that I didn't try, mind you, but impossible IS impossible. The whole "run" took far less time than I had anticipated. I describe all this just to make the point that it can be fun and rewarding for people to relax a little about gear and stats and so on, and to get together with, as you said, the Massive Multiplayers who can learn how to contribute to the group despite being less experienced.

Originally Posted by Wingeman

I think this is a great point. I think the players to whom you refer are of course free to group only with those they consider "properly geared and traited" or sufficiently experienced, but that group of players isolates itself if a player learning how to defeat certain instances is not occasionally allowed to come along. I guess it's the expectation of being able to count on another quick run for those emblems or whatever without the worry that someone might do something "wrong" and make it more difficult. Not knocking that playstyle, but it's not the point for me personally.

There are, as there usually are, two sides to this coin.

On the one hand, some content require a certain quality of gear/stats. If the group is being hit by a scripted 5k (unmitigated) AoE, then the healer with anything less than 5k morale is guaranteed to die at that point. That death may in turn lead to other deaths as they're being rezzed. Extra healing is needed to keep them alive etc and so forth. Does this mean that the player in question is unsuitable for that content? NO! They just need better gear and trying to get it through the hardest content in the game is the Wrong Way(tm) to do it. Once you get over that hurdle it becomes a lot easier.

One the other hand, once a player has passed that "gear hurdle" (it was easier to explain back when Radience was the most hated mechanics in the game: You need 150 of this stat, then you're geared) then they should be embraced and helped in the end-game content. Having played this game as a full time raider from Barad Guldur I can understand the frustration when a run takes five hours instead of two and a half just because you're "breaking in" a new player. However, once experience starts seeping in they become a great asset!

So where does that land us? Should I, as an experienced and geared raider, spend time grinding easier content with inexperienced players? Yes, it's the best way to discover new talents that can be incorporated into your kin's raiding effort! It also spreads goodwill amongst others (kin X is known to help others! kin X is a nice kin). But most importantly; it teaches you humility and reminds you that once upon a time you were actually "that bad"...

(Then there are the refuse: Players who join you in your raiding efforts (usually after you've cracked the content), get the "training" to do the content, sign up for a few runs and then disapears once their characters are geared up (or they've got the deed to use the raid gear).)

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

There are, as there usually are, two sides to this coin.

Okay, you got me with this opening. I expected the rest to be a bit less...in agreement with what the OP is about. O.o

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

One the other hand, once a player has passed that "gear hurdle" (it was easier to explain back when Radience was the most hated mechanics in the game: You need 150 of this stat, then you're geared) then they should be embraced and helped in the end-game content. Having played this game as a full time raider from Barad Guldur I can understand the frustration when a run takes five hours instead of two and a half just because you're "breaking in" a new player. However, once experience starts seeping in they become a great asset!

Yes, and part of what I hope people try to do now when discussing gear and traits and what-not with someone is exactly this. I don't see anything wrong with telling someone hey, you're going to have a tough time living through this, if you are really serious about learning what options do we have to get you better gear? My perspective is the opposite, of course, as I really only do pugs, and watch out on landscape for people who look like they need that kind of advice. Never had a five hour instance.......ouch. But if I were to, I would hope that the student learned a lot, and as you say, became a great asset.

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

So where does that land us? Should I, as an experienced and geared raider, spend time grinding easier content with inexperienced players? Yes, it's the best way to discover new talents that can be incorporated into your kin's raiding effort! It also spreads goodwill amongst others (kin X is known to help others! kin X is a nice kin). But most importantly; it teaches you humility and reminds you that once upon a time you were actually "that bad"...

Nothing really to add to that paragraph, it's a great statement of a positive attitude. If I were to add something it would be that the "grinding" of those lower level areas can easily be productive for the one helping out as well. I will always have a landscape deed to work on somewhere, and the goals and rewards of the instances don't seem to get old to me.

Calenhand was here before your time.

To really answer your question... the egg was there first. As you know dinosaurs excisted before chickens, and they laid eggs too, as do most all reptiles...

Originally Posted by valgorlim

This is a very common thread i see constantly , i hear the comment experianced players only on various runs...
BUt how do new players get experiance lest we forget the new players are the lifeblood of the server .

Those shouting for 'experienced players only' don't give a damn about new players, they of course never were newbies.

So... how about those persons shouting they are 5/6 for a certain instance... several times... I think to myself, let's help them out, I join, only to find out that I am the first in the fellowship... what's up with that?

Thanks for all your posative replies guys.
Its nice to try to put something back into the game every now and again .

There's a significant difference between "experienced with grouping mechanics" and "experienced with the specific instance". I can see why some people get frustrated with people who sign up for groups but then appear to have no knowledge whatsoever on topics like managing aggro, not breaking CC, etc. But that's no excuse for systematically refusing to let people join who are new to a certain piece of content. It's even in the direct interest of those "experienced players" to let new blood come along, as the pool of players with experience in that instance will grow that way, and it becomes easier to find a balanced group for it.

It's a tough and delicate topic, I remember back in SoA days when I was a terrible player, didnt know what traits and virtues were, but eventually I learned etc. Then in SoM I started hardcore raiding in BG and then OD t2 challenge, and Usually the 6 mans and 3 mans got harder that if you did Kin runs they were usually ok, but Pugging them was risky and theres quite a few people on Globallff I purposely avoid grouping with and in SOME cases some kinships I avoid and I realise that isnt right but It cannot be helped in my psychosis. I sometimes walk through the auction houses and sometimes when I see a level 75 guardian with 8k health and green/purple gear, I start talking and give him harsh but fair advice and if he wants to know more then I will spend an hour or so talking to them about it, sometimes I buy them some gear from the AH or make them some myself so, and I've seen a minstrel at 75 go from 3.5k morale and power and 500 will, to 1200 will, 5k morale 7k power, the difference is amazing how much people can change by just following good careful advice. In instances if im feeling impatient and in a 6 man when a Guardian joins with bad gear and most importanly bad legendaries, then I will just leave the group, but I've found a lot on lotro is you can tell a lot from a player about their legendary items ( if you know the class ). I think the only way to improve is through trial and error in instances, but then again that still comes at the cost of 5 or 11 other people, especially if you are Tanking BG/OD/ToO for the first time. I mean theres a reason for the "No inspect no invite" rules that people apply.

When people ask for experienced people only, I think that means experienced in playing their class in groups/instances and not experienced in that particular instance. Cause if a player is good and experienced in playing his class, he can understand tactics for content he has never done much easily.

The problem with people inexperienced in playing in groups came when they made the Epic quest line fully soloable. Since then, it became more common to see people at level cap who have no idea how to play their class in groups. People simply get to level cap without grouping even once. And most people seem to support this. Cause whenever I am leveling new alt, I try to find groups for the fs epic quests so I can get some experience in playing that class in groups. But I am always told something like "You can solo it".

So, on one hand people encourage full soloing until level cap, but on the other hand they expect people to know to play their class in groups at level cap. I don't understand this.

Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar

When people ask for experienced people only, I think that means experienced in playing their class in groups/instances and not experienced in that particular instance. Cause if a player is good and experienced in playing his class, he can understand tactics for content he has never done much easily.

The problem with people inexperienced in playing in groups came when they made the Epic quest line fully soloable. Since then, it became more common to see people at level cap who have no idea how to play their class in groups. People simply get to level cap without grouping even once. And most people seem to support this. Cause whenever I am leveling new alt, I try to find groups for the fs epic quests so I can get some experience in playing that class in groups. But I am always told something like "You can solo it".

So, on one hand people encourage full soloing until level cap, but on the other hand they expect people to know to play their class in groups at level cap. I don't understand this.

I agree with that actually, but the problem with leveling up and grouping together for FS Quests and even Level instances is the lack of demand for them and the supply of player/classes, sure some kins help their kinnies out, but I remember in SoM if you wanted to do GS QM/HM some of the groups/players you got were very bad, almost no tanks or if there were it was rare to have a good enough one to stay alive/keep aggro, and likewise with the healing, often I'd find myself joining a GS HM group with 2 loremasters, both around level 57 and the Tank was a level 58 warden with less health than a champ at the time because people dont pay attention to their characters that much when they are leveling they just see it as a way to do instance quests without preparing so they rush their character through. I've always been a person who thinks class setup is important all through the game and some things are easy fair enough. I liked the system before when You hit 65, and you did Moria instances for the Set, then went to small mirkwood instances for the 3 piece, then Dar Narbugud for the other parts, to get the Radiance, and Radiance was bad, but still It did let you keep in check who did the instances, that alone required some group experience and kept people doing old instances for a reason for the loot so there was no lack of demand for DN, Moria instance etc, even if it was stupidly easy to get, but now you can go in Orthanc with the leveled gear as a hunter and just get carried through and farm the Raid set, I dont like that system.

And Btw the chicken came 1st

"Experienced" (for lack of a better word) people will have probably gotten a taste of what it's like to do a fantastic run eg: foundry in ~20 minutes with a good group, usually with kin or a group of friends. So when they're forced to lff for a pug, they'll feel compelled to try and replicate that experience, which they thoroughly enjoyed, by attracting "good" players. Not trying to justify this behavior, simply giving the side of the coin which hasn't been discussed much yet here.

Also, the first chicken egg was laid by something which was not quite a chicken

1st egg was laid when chicken was banged by rooster!

Not sooner not later!

Originally Posted by Dinmithrandir

Also, the first chicken egg was laid by something which was not quite a chicken

Actually that egg was not a chicken egg was a "something which was not quite a chicken" egg from wich the 1st chicken was born.

Scientists discoverd that chicken eggs have a component that no other egg has and that component can only be produced when the egg is inside the chicken.

Just a quick explanation you can google it and see whole article its quite funny to read it

I dont think the leader of a kin who had a somewhat ridiculous rad-requirement for their own members to raid to be the OP of this kind of topic.

Having watched GlobalLFF for a night: less then 5% of the LFF's ask for 'experienced players'. Well, actually none did, and I counted around 30 today.

It's not much fun for 11 people to wipe at Saruman because of someone not-knowing what to do. Therefor I can understand why they ask for experience. And I think it is their right.

Nevertheless: There are some people that are SO helpful, also for newbies.. And even for ToO raiding. Faerdo used to lead alot of raids in which he always explained what to do. These days, for example, Savyl leads alot of raids. She always explains everything and has an admirable patience.

My word of advise is though: First do some Foundry instances, maybe 10 to 20 times. Maybe some Roots of Fangorn too. Fellowships hardly ask for experience there, and you can ask for advice/tips along the way.
Second: collect those Seals and Medaillons and get armour from Ox-Clan Merchant camp. With that armour, you should be set for some end-game raiding.

Originally Posted by DiorEluchil

I dont think the leader of a kin who had a somewhat ridiculous rad-requirement for their own members to raid to be the OP of this kind of topic.

I don't think this applies to the OP. Mistaken identity?

In my personal opionion as a person whom has been playing this game since this game started.. ask for help.

To update my pesonal view nothing has changed Friendship and fellowship is still everything that counts is this game .
Aside from vampire hamsters Eh blue nose..p
BUT joking aside i might seem an elitist but hey everyone should be in a kin enjoying lotro.
I guess my point is everyone should pool their resourses and knowlage to further everones enjoyment of the game .