Hey my friends! This is one of my favorite forums to browse, and while I am not a Tolkien scholar, I have learned much through my readings here.
I do have a question! The mines of moria scenes are some of my favorite in the tale, but I have always wondered about certain details. I know that the dwarves made their home there until they disturbed the balrog, which eventually drove them out. How long between that period and when Balin went back to reclaim the mines? When/where did the orcs and goblins arrive? The reasons I ask is that the fellowship seems to have no knowledge of the situation in the mines, though it seemed as if the struggle had long since been over.
Did the goblins reside there permenantly? Why would that force not have moved on to other battles?
In other words.. can someone tell me the tale of the story of Moria between the initial fall of Durin's dwarves and the re-settlement attempt by Balin to the fellowship passing through. Thanks!
The dwarves of Balin's expedition entered the Mines from the East end. They quickly drove back the goblins that had occupied the mines since the dwarves were driven out by the Balrog a couple thousand years ago. They held for five years, but the goblins mustered in strength and overran them. No word had been sent outside of Moria so no one knew what had happened. Communications in Middle-Earth are not particularly good; Boromir didn't even know where Imladris was when he set out from Gondor. The Fellowship was unsure whether or not Balin's company was still alive when they went in even though it had been a year or two since they were destroyed.
The goblins in Moria were not allied with Sauron or Saruman. They may have been in the service of the Balrog, but in any case they were permanent residents. Goblins don't fight well aboveground in sunlight anyway.
Goblins aren't normally military forces under anyone's control.
They are more like bandits and many prefer mountain environments. Presumably because ambushes become easier, kind of hard to go messing with people in the steppe if you can't take sunlight and can't ride horses.
Personally what I never got is why they don't like woods and forest which would also be good for their business. But I guess the trees don't like them.
I think there's roughly 1000 years between the Dwarves starting to mess with the guy in the basement and the resettlement attempt. During those 1000 years Sauron was weak and Saruman white, so who's gonna run for president there?
HighwayRidge, you may be interested in seeing a thread I started in October 2009: Lore from the works of J.R.R. Tolkien - Moria. It has some of the important dates that you inquire about illustrated with some in-game screenshots.
'Goblin' is just another word for 'Orc', they're not seperate as this game has them. As for the orcs in Moria being under Sauron's control - I'd say by the end of the Third Age they must have been nominally under his over all influence. The wargs that attacked the Fellowship west of Moria were under Sauron's control, I can't see how an entire orc-infested underground city wouldn't be.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
'Goblin' is just another word for 'Orc', they're not seperate as this game has them. As for the orcs in Moria being under Sauron's control - I'd say by the end of the Third Age they must have been nominally under his over all influence.
More than just 'nominally', I think - the big Orc-chieftain who upended Boromir and speared Frodo was very well-equipped, clad in black mail from head to foot as it says - that sounds like one of Sauron's Black Uruks to me. And besides, Sauron had a 'thing' for mithril and so I imagine he'd have wanted to have a presence in Moria, if only to keep the Dwarves out.
I like to think of goblins, orcs, and uruks being subspecies of the same race: orc-kind. Be that as it may, Sauron probably sent orcs into Moria after the Balrog was found to help drive the Dwarves out. After that I imagine they were technically still under his influence, but not under direct supervision like the orcs of Mordor.
Did you really think this signature would be worth reading?
Yes Dol, I believe that your signature was well worth reading.
I always thought of the Goblins there as freelancers, not answering to anyone but being careful of that really big dude in the basement.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
There are a few small details about the Moria situation that I personally find very interesting.
First, a year passed between (i) the time that the balrog was first disturbed and killed Durin VI, and (ii) the balrog killed his son Nain I and the remainder of the dwarves fled Moria. In my mind, this puts the balrog in a bit of a different perspective. Was it really this nigh-omnipotent hulking lava demon as is commonly depicted? If so, why did it take the balrog a year to drive the dwarves out of Moria? What were its motivations generally, and in particular immediately following its having been disturbed from its slumber/stasis?
Secondly, recall the reaction of Celeborn when he hears about the balrog from the Fellowship. He says something to the effect of "Ah, that explains much. We have long wondered just what the heck Durin's Bane was." The point being that the elves of Lorien, despite living just across the street from Moria's east gate, didn't know there was a balrog there. Christopher Tolkien, in annotating the History of Middle Earth series, touches on this a bit. As I recall, I viewed it (as I do) as a bit of an anomoly in his father's story. The best explanation is that the elves and dwarves were so estranged that the fleeing dwarves never told the elves (or anyone else apparently) what had happened to them. But think about it from the elves' perspective. Moria was a thriviing metropolis of the dwarves, their greatest city in that part of the world. It was literally right next door to Lorien (so close that the fellowship reached the eaves of Lorien by dusk of the same day they fled Moria). Yet when disaster fell Moria and the entire population of the city was slain or fled, the ELVES NEVER FOUND OUT EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! It sort of beggars the imagination. It isn't as if Galadriel and Celeborn were incurious dolts. Heck, Galadriel even has a magic scrying mirror. Yet they never knew about the balrog until the Fellowship tells them. It is also clear from the text that Gandalf didn't know exactly what Durin's Bane was either until he encountered it. I find that curious as well. You might have thought he would have made it a point to find out.
It is also clear from the text that Gandalf didn't know exactly what Durin's Bane was either until he encountered it. I find that curious as well. You might have thought he would have made it a point to find out.
The implication is that nobody who'd got a proper look at the thing had lived to tell the tale and so Gandalf had simply been unable to find out. It was a creature of shadow and flame, right? But just shadow, when it wanted to be, shrouded in a cloud of darkness. It could have lurked about Moria in the dark, only showing its true nature when it chose to: like maybe when it was ambushing some Dwarves, confident it could 'flame on' for a bit and kill the lot of them before going back to lurking in the shadows. Just charging around roaring wouldn't have been smart; it could choose when and where to strike.
Just think of it in horror movie terms and it's easy to imagine the sort of thing that could have gone on in there
Yet if the goblins of Moria were under Sauron's control, I wonder why the Balrog wasn't approached to join his forces. Or maybe he was and his response was largely negative.
The best explanation is that the elves and dwarves were so estranged that the fleeing dwarves never told the elves (or anyone else apparently) what had happened to them. But think about it from the elves' perspective.
I don't think the dwarves being driven out of Moria went generally how people imagine. It wouldn't make much sense for the Balrog to have been awoken and then gone on a continuous offensive against large numbers of dwarves until they were driven out, the dwarves would surely have ended up killing it through sheer weight of numbers.
I imagine a more subtle affair. Remember that the Balrog would have instilled terror in any who beheld it (and, as a side-note, that terror alone might be enough to prevent those who beheld it from speaking of it later, that's how things work in this fantasy, and in many other myths too). He could have been an assassin in the shadows (his own which he could manipulate, making a good disguise and a sudden shock when he is close enough and bursts into flame), striking just a few remote dwarves here and there before retreating again. Eventually after the Balrog had slain Durin the dwarves must have been suitably terrified of this 'shadow from the deep' that they packed up and left. It was probably more like a folk-lore tale of dread than a clear cut event that could be easily recounted and explained in detail.
This would fit in with the idea that the dwarves wouldn't be keen on re-telling the tale in later years, especially to elves, for fear and pride related reasons. This would explain why the information outsiders, even the Wise, had in later centuries would be sketchy at best.
Last edited by Beleg-Of-Doriath; Apr 14 2012 at 12:29 PM.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
To the Lorien folks it probably looked like the Dwarves have been driven out by the Goblins and assorted other creatures that are monstrous but not of as particular note as a Balrog. As somebody else said, of those who fled how many have actually seen the Balrog and can tell the tale in a convincing manner?
Did not Amroth rule Lorien at this time and fled south to the havens because of the Dark Terror of Moria. Or was that during a different year or age? And if it was during the same time would then the elves know there was something more deadly than mere orcs?
Did not Amroth rule Lorien at this time and fled south to the havens because of the Dark Terror of Moria. Or was that during a different year or age? And if it was during the same time would then the elves know there was something more deadly than mere orcs?
Did not Amroth rule Lorien at this time and fled south to the havens because of the Dark Terror of Moria. Or was that during a different year or age? And if it was during the same time would then the elves know there was something more deadly than mere orcs?
Yes, Amroth and Nimrodel left Lórien in TA 1981 after the Dwarves were driven out of Moria. It was Nimrodel who fled, however, not Amroth. Amroth left Lórien in search of her, and found her on the eaves of Fangorn. Together they decided to travel to Edhellond to sail to the Undying Lands. Unfortunately, Nimrodel became lost during the journey. See the section entitled 'Amroth and Nimrodel' in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter entitled 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'.
It is not stated how much the Elves knew about the Balrog in this passage, but my guess is if they had any communication at all with the Dwarves, which I guess they did, they would have likely been told of 'Durin's Bane'. Whether or not they knew that it was a Balrog, however, is another question.
When Legolas tells Celeborn and Galadriel that they encountered a Balrog in Moria, Celeborn states, "We long feared that under Caradhras a terror slept." So the Elves knew that something was there, but likely did not know precisely what it was.
To be honest a whole lot about Moria does not make sense.
Gimili talks about being welcomed by roaring fires and beer, he seems to think it's still a city.
On the other hand is it not well known that Moria was abandoned?
Is he not even in the slightest bit suspicious that:
No one has heard from Balin in *years*
There seems to be no communication or commerce whatsoever for this huge city?
Why is the door to Moria so small? This would be Like a huge city with a door not much bigger
than a house door!?
Are there other doors, are they bigger, how exactly did any trade and commerce take place?
If its a mine, and a big one, how the hell did they get all the stuff *inside* the mountain out if it?
Did they use magic, not much mention is made of the Dwarves using magic.
Why is Gimili not surprised to find the door locked and seemingly abandoned, yet he still thinks
there will be a welcome for them inside?
Why is the bridge for leaving Moria, the huge city, so narrow and dangerous, were the inhabitants
just suicidal?
I don't think Tolkien was a very pragmatic person. Although captivating, I think his worlds often
lack internal consistency. The only way I can read Tolkien is to give it fable like qualities, so much
simply does not make any sense, even from the internal viewpoint of the world itself.
To be honest a whole lot about Moria does not make sense.
Gimili talks about being welcomed by roaring fires and beer, he seems to think it's still a city.
On the other hand is it not well known that Moria was abandoned?
Is he not even in the slightest bit suspicious that:
No one has heard from Balin in *years*
There seems to be no communication or commerce whatsoever for this huge city?
Why is the door to Moria so small? This would be Like a huge city with a door not much bigger
than a house door!?
Are there other doors, are they bigger, how exactly did any trade and commerce take place?
If its a mine, and a big one, how the hell did they get all the stuff *inside* the mountain out if it?
Did they use magic, not much mention is made of the Dwarves using magic.
Why is Gimili not surprised to find the door locked and seemingly abandoned, yet he still thinks
there will be a welcome for them inside?
Why is the bridge for leaving Moria, the huge city, so narrow and dangerous, were the inhabitants
just suicidal?
I don't think Tolkien was a very pragmatic person. Although captivating, I think his worlds often
lack internal consistency. The only way I can read Tolkien is to give it fable like qualities, so much
simply does not make any sense, even from the internal viewpoint of the world itself.
I don't know all the answers, but here's my point of view on a few of them:
The Moria expedition was relatively small, it wasn't meant to immediately recolonize Moria completely, so I suppose the doors of Durin, where the Fellowship enters, is just on the far side of where the expedition was. Which means that commerce probably hadn't been established yet.
Also, communication seems to be difficult anyway, as it takes days just to send word around for the Rohan army to assemble at Dunharrow for example.
The doors of Durin were meant to be locked and only those who know the password could get in, to keep hostiles out. Possibly due to the Watcher who is in the nearby lake.
The bridge is a defensive measure to ensure that any invading army needs to go single file to cross it. In normal days it would probably be a bit inconvenient, but if you are being harassed for years and years by goblins, it makes sense to have such a defense in place.
The West Doors are actually fairly big, I'd hazard to guess large enough for dwarven made carts to pass through. I haven't read anything on the Eastern doors but I'd expect them to be of similar size.
Balin led the expedition against the advice of King Dain so they were basically on their own. The expedition had be gone a very long time in human years but that's not that long in the life span of a dwarf! Also, I seem to remember that one of the reason Gloin and Gimli were at Rivendell was to inquire whether Elrond had heard anything about Balin and the expedition. I think Gimli's optimism is a dwarven trait of overconfidence...what were a few orcs compared to a dragon anyway??? Remember also that the knowledge of the nature of Durin's Bane had been lost and so to some of the dwarves it was a forgone conclusion that Khazad-Dum would be reclaimed.
LOTRO and PJ's films really don't do Moria justice...the city is massive. I recommend finding a copy of the Middle-Earth Role Play Moria supplement to get a better idea on the size of Moria. I think they came the closest to Tolkien's vision of Moria.
Gimili talks about being welcomed by roaring fires and beer, he seems to think it's still a city.
[...]
Why is Gimili not surprised to find the door locked and seemingly abandoned, yet he still thinks
there will be a welcome for them inside?
Please don't confuse what transpired in Peter Jackson's movies with what Tolkien wrote. They are often different.
Originally Posted by BruntFCA
On the other hand is it not well known that Moria was abandoned?
Apparently not. The Elves of Eregion, with whom the Dwarves of Moria traded, have long been slain or dispersed. From what is said during the Fellowship's visit to Lothlórien it is evident that the Galadhrim have not had a relationship with Dwarves in a very long time.
Originally Posted by BruntFCA
Is he not even in the slightest bit suspicious that:
No one has heard from Balin in *years*
There seems to be no communication or commerce whatsoever for this huge city?
It is evident that Gandalf suspected that Balin's colony to Moria had failed. Both he and Aragorn indicate that they had passed through Moria in the past, but it is not said when that was and what, if any, conversation they had with the members of Balin's company.
Originally Posted by BruntFCA
Are there other doors, are they bigger, how exactly did any trade and commerce take place?
If its a mine, and a big one, how the hell did they get all the stuff *inside* the mountain out if it?
As far as we know there were just the East and West Gates. No secret entrances, like the one for Erebor, are ever mentioned. It is evident that the West Gate was sufficiently large enough for commerce to pass between Moria and Eregion.
Originally Posted by BruntFCA
Why is the bridge for leaving Moria, the huge city, so narrow and dangerous, were the inhabitants just suicidal?
Gimli states that the bridge was purposely narrow for means of defense.
Originally Posted by BruntFCA
I don't think Tolkien was a very pragmatic person. Although captivating, I think his worlds often
lack internal consistency. The only way I can read Tolkien is to give it fable like qualities, so much
simply does not make any sense, even from the internal viewpoint of the world itself.
There is something to what you say, and Tolkien would have been the first to admit it.
After having slain Azog in the Battle of Azanulbizar Dáin Ironfoot looks through the East Gate, sees the Balrog and tells Thráin:
"But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria." (Appendix A, Durin's Folk)
So the dwarves of Durin's Folk did know that there was a Balrog in the Mines of Moria. I wonder why Thorin, Glóin or Balin who were all present at the Battle had not told that to Gandalf.
After having slain Azog in the Battle of Azanulbizar Dáin Ironfoot looks through the East Gate, sees the Balrog and tells Thráin:
"But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria." (Appendix A, Durin's Folk)
So the dwarves of Durin's Folk did know that there was a Balrog in the Mines of Moria. I wonder why Thorin, Glóin or Balin who were all present at the Battle had not told that to Gandalf.
Hmmm, I thought they didn't specifically know that Burin's Bane is a Balrog.
In any case, any real world army fails to deliver information like that to 10% of their officers, so sounds realistic to me
So the dwarves of Durin's Folk did know that there was a Balrog in the Mines of Moria. I wonder why Thorin, Glóin or Balin who were all present at the Battle had not told that to Gandalf.
They didn't know what it was, it was just "Durin's Bane" to them. I reckon everyone who'd ever got a good look at the thing had ended up dead. All Dain might have seen from where he stood on the threshold was that lurking shadow, black as the abyss, and he might have felt the power and terror of it, felt its gaze intent upon him. Whatever he experienced, it left him grey in the face with fear and nobody doubted his word; they could probably have seen the truth of it in his eyes.
The reasons I ask is that the fellowship seems to have no knowledge of the situation in the mines, though it seemed as if the struggle had long since been over.
Both Gandalf and Aragorn had been in Moria -- Aragorn in and out the Dimrill Dale side, and Gandalf all the way through. Gimli knew about Balin's expedition, so he probably knew something of what Balin was expecting to try to overcome there. Aragorn didn't like his experience above half, but doesn't tell us anything about it other than that he'd rather try any other path than go through there, and that he thought it could be Gandalf's doom if they tried it. Gandalf's experience there might have been much earlier, but I suppose both of them were there during the goblin hegemony, well before Balin's try.
I don't think anybody expected a Balrog to have survived into this Age, though... but if that's the case, I don't know what else Aragorn thought could defeat Gandalf.
To be honest a whole lot about Moria does not make sense.
Gimili talks about being welcomed by roaring fires and beer, he seems to think it's still a city.
On the other hand is it not well known that Moria was abandoned?
Is he not even in the slightest bit suspicious that:
No one has heard from Balin in *years*
There seems to be no communication or commerce whatsoever for this huge city?
Why is the door to Moria so small? This would be Like a huge city with a door not much bigger
than a house door!?
Are there other doors, are they bigger, how exactly did any trade and commerce take place?
If its a mine, and a big one, how the hell did they get all the stuff *inside* the mountain out if it?
Did they use magic, not much mention is made of the Dwarves using magic.
Why is Gimili not surprised to find the door locked and seemingly abandoned, yet he still thinks
there will be a welcome for them inside?
Why is the bridge for leaving Moria, the huge city, so narrow and dangerous, were the inhabitants
just suicidal?
I don't think Tolkien was a very pragmatic person. Although captivating, I think his worlds often
lack internal consistency. The only way I can read Tolkien is to give it fable like qualities, so much
simply does not make any sense, even from the internal viewpoint of the world itself.
yeah.
it's implied that Balin's company was of a fair size, & assuming [contrary to the game] that it wasn't really possible to grow anything much underground or keep animals they'd have needed to trade with the outside world on a very regular basis.
no word from them at all for years was fairly telling.
but as you say it is really a 'fable' of sorts - and near enough the most popular work of fiction ever. it's not at all hard to overlook these little plot holes.
I don't think anybody expected a Balrog to have survived into this Age, though... but if that's the case, I don't know what else Aragorn thought could defeat Gandalf.
A Dragon maybe? One of Glaurung's brood, who bred a bit more true than his fellows?
After all, a massive Dwarven city would suit one of the flightless dragons just fine.
(And before anyone starts about Smaug and the letter that Tolkien wrote about him being the last of his kind, that's meta knowledge. I'm talking about what the characters themselves could conceivably know about.
Besides, I'd count Smaug as one of Ancalagon's brood, rather than Glaurung's. The whole being able to fly thing. And yes, I know that Ancalagon himself is one of Glaurung's brood. Consider it a mutation. So while some of Glaurung's offspring may have gained wings, doesn't mean that all of them would've.)
I don't believe that Aragorn had a particular threat in mind. Recall that Aragorn made it pretty clear that his concern was specifically for Gandalf rather than for the Fellowship as a whole. Plug whatever enemy you want in the black box - balrog, dragon, goblin army, the Mistress of Pestilence from LOTRO's Dar Narbulung - all of them are going to be just as much a danger to the entire party as to Gandalf. I always understood Aragorn to have had some form of premonition that involved Gandalf, rather than a concern that the Fellowship would run into a particular monster that he had seen on his prior trip through.
The Road to clearing Moira was long and hard,It wasn't till Durin VII that the Dwarves finally totally reclaim it as their and re stored it to it former glory and the Durin Dwarves awaited the end of time and the return of their creator to re built the world.
This would fit in with the idea that the dwarves wouldn't be keen on re-telling the tale in later years, especially to elves, for fear and pride related reasons. This would explain why the information outsiders, even the Wise, had in later centuries would be sketchy at best.
Good post, I think this sums it up well. Any Dwarves that were driven out through tales of a shadowy thread in the deep would certainly not admit that their entire city had fallen to what (in their minds) was largely rumour and here-say of "Durin's Bane", least of all to Elves. As many have said it's likely that any Dwarf who got a good view of the Balrog, good enough to retell the story such that people would know, for certain, that it was a Balrog he was describing, would likely be killed by it. Conversely, and Dwarves saying "We were driven out by a Balrog" would probably be dismissed as glorifying their foe to make their retreat seem less shameful (not that it was shameful, with full knowledge of the situation).
There was a vague acceptance from all "in the know" that there was some hidden threat in Moria, although as you and other say no one was really sure. I'd imagine if you were given the set of events and asked to draw a conclusion, the presence of a Balrog would not be one you'd jump to, it would certainly be one you would not want to believe was true anyway.
Yet if the goblins of Moria were under Sauron's control, I wonder why the Balrog wasn't approached to join his forces. Or maybe he was and his response was largely negative.
I'm thinking the Balrog was one of Morrgoth's soldiers, so didn't exactly have to "report" to Sauron in the first age, and probably wasn't going to report to Sauron in the third age. The Blarog also didn't seem to be the "team player" type.
I don't believe that Aragorn had a particular threat in mind.
There also is the issue of no matter how good Gandalf is at fighting or at avoiding a fight, falling into lava or being buried under the whole mountain is gonna hurt his health insurance rating.
It's like you running around in DooM. No matter how much ammo, weapons and armor you drag around. A false step and the lava pit will do it.
Makes me wonder whether there was an appropriate lake of lava to melt that damn ring in Moria.
Makes me wonder whether there was an appropriate lake of lava to melt that damn ring in Moria.
Oh god, don't start that again! There was a large discussion about this. People who thought that any lava would do but Mt Doom was the only access point and others thinking that it had to be specifically Mt Doom, regardless of any other access to lava.
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Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath
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