Thread: How much do stats matter for captains?

This is a wishy-washy topic, but I was wondering about some of your opinions. What's the difference in a captain's effectiveness with 1000 might, 1500 might, or 2000 might? Does it matter at all in Tier 1 raids? Does it matter in the Ettenmoors? Would you pass on that great might earring to give it to your kin's champ?

might = ability to heal and dps
might = ability to be useful to the group in the role you are playing.
Low might = not very useful
high might = useful

Your usefulness to the group as either a dps or a healer hinges upon might. I would shoot for 2k+might and over 8k morale (excluding pvp).

*note for dps I would focus on crit as well...stack might gear with raw crit on it and relics. The old skirm gear (earrings of wrath unleased, dwarf silver flask etc) are, IMO, better than the anduin ones.

*note healing and dps can be gained through raw offense rating, this gear tends to come with might, specifically designed for captains.

Compared to other classes, Captain stats are a relative non-issue. Legacies and traits are much more useful to worry about.

Might has a much smaller effect on outgoing healing than the main stat for any other class.

That's why I'm enjoying playing Captain. It's one of the few classes that still rely on player skill over gear, and I really don't have the patience to grind much of anything for that 1 piece of shiny gear these days. I'm happy with my stats at 80% of max, since it's only a difference of a few % lower outgoing healing and damage from a non-DPS class.

The reason I ask is because I'm having trouble deciding between bartering for a nice piece of jewelry with 57 more might than my current piece, or getting a fantastic looking armour piece with only marginal stat improvements over my current one. The issue is that I don't really plan on tackling the toughest content, and I would be worried that the jewelry item will be obsolete in a couple months.

I was looking here to see how much physical mastery and tactical mastery affect our damage output and our healing output.

It looks like it takes 28 might to improve your outgoing damage by 1% and the same amount of might improves outgoing healing by ~0.5% (it's approximate since this formula is curved, but its slope doesn't change much after 15000 tactical mastery).

So the 57 extra might would give me about 2% more damage and 1% more healing. Captains are measuring 800-1100 dps and similar amounts of hps. But 2% more dps is 16-22 dps and 1% more hps is 8-11 hps. (And it's actually more like 1% more total dps since it's added to outgoing damage bonus.)

Originally Posted by Armitas

might = ability to heal and dps
might = ability to useful to the group in the role you are playing.
Low might = not very useful
high might = useful

Your usefulness to the group as either a dps or a healer hinges upon might. I would shoot for 2k+might and over 8k morale (excluding pvp).

*note for dps I would focus on crit as well...stack might gear with raw crit on it and relics. The old skirm gear (earrings of wrath unleased, dwarf silver flask etc) are, IMO, better than the anduin ones.

*note healing and dps can be gained through raw offense rating, this gear tends to come with might, specifically designed for captains.

This is true...sometimes. Might is not everything. I see too many Captains running around with 2200 might and 22% crit....and 6.5k morale while getting one shotted constantly. In my opinion the devs did an awesome job of keeping the captain very well rounded as a class. Unfortunatly this means that we cannot fully igore any stat completely.

In my experience most of the sucessful runs the other captain had around 1800 might and 1300 vit. Staying alive and not being another drain for the main healer is just as important as bringing the awesome. I am a litte vit crazy sitting around 1600 vit with 1400 might. I also run a very non standard build and would not recommend it for anyone due to being a lot of work (tons of hot swaping) to be effective.

I take this stance on morale. "Be no less a liability than the champ or burglar beside you, nor be less effective than them to the best of your ability in the role you are given."

In explanation..

What ever the avg raid champ/burg has deemed the perfect balance between morale and dps is good enough for you in dps as you stand beside the champ/burg.

What ever the avg healer has deemed the perfect balance between morale and heals is good enough for you in heals as you stand beside the healer.

...6.5k morale is crazy mode...I'm at ~31k offense, ~27% crit and over 8k morale so I know it can be done, not easily though.

I certainly wish we could reach the morale/dps balance RK's can. I see them at 10k morale doing more dps than me.

It pains me to say it, but I feel like keeping up with the very best gear is more important for tanks and dps classes than captains. Keyword is more, cause captains still oughta work to get better stats for the benefit of the group. I say this because

A) The +X% to damage is greater than the +Y% to healing from the same amount of main stat. However, our personal healing makes up a bigger chunk of total group healing than our personal dps makes of total group dps.

B) Personal healing and damaging is a secondary role for us (in raids), whereas more damage is a champ/hunt's primary role.

C) Legacies make more difference to your heals than going from poor gear to decent gear, or decent gear to good gear. Traited 5r/2b, you could have an RC heal multiplier of 1+0.15(leg)+0.15(leg)+0.10(2b trait)+0.40(OGH, ~1500 might). If you were undergeared and had 30% OGH, your RCs would be 94.4% as effective. Significant, but not gratuitously so.

D) Many of our group benefits are not dependent on stats (Brother skills, tactics, banner, IHW+LS, rezzes)

That said, if someone asked me to pass on a +lots of might piece that I wanted so that a champ could get it, I'd be like

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

This is a wishy-washy topic, but I was wondering about some of your opinions. What's the difference in a captain's effectiveness with 1000 might, 1500 might, or 2000 might? Does it matter at all in Tier 1 raids? Does it matter in the Ettenmoors? Would you pass on that great might earring to give it to your kin's champ?

It all depends on what i do situationally. A captain is only as good as he is alive while doing max healing and dps. Key thing is staying alive while doing healing/buffing on the battlefield. If that instance expects me to take a big dip in morale i might slot in a few vit pieces just for insurance.

@OP: yes stats do matter, for every class, though the captain can be a little more forgiving.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

Captains are measuring 800-1100 dps and similar amounts of hps.

I'm not trying to troll or anything, I'm genuinely curious *who* exactly is sustaining 1k+ dps AND hps on a captain if not in a balanced group while being incredibly well geared and amazingly lucky on crits? On my captain the only time I can sustain 800+ dps is 4 red traited in a group with an LM or Burg debuffing the target. Keeping up that much hps isn't hard if you are being rather proactive about it or in HoH but I don't see how you could possibly do that much in heals AND dps at the same time. Healing on capt seriously distracts from doing much damage. Again just curious.

Originally Posted by Armitas

I'm at ~31k offense, ~27% crit and over 8k morale so I know it can be done, not easily though.

I looked at your build on my.lotro... are all of your relics geared completely for phys mastery? Also how do you get your crit that high? My crit rating is just about at yours and with the +5% melee w/ 4 reds I'm still topping out at just about 23%.


Then again I don't play in the moors and I'm just about always grouped...

The build I have on mylotro is my pvp build. More than half the time im in that build. info on that build here

The build I recalled (not the case anymore with the command set, reworking this build) was the dps orthanc set minus saruman pieces, and this jewelry..used strictly for pve dps.


2x Earrings of Wrath Unleashed ( I only had 1 at those stats, waiting on a second one)
2x Easterling's War Bracelet Been thinking of using these instead Bangle of Echoing battle
1x anduin ring ( I would use this slot to balance morale out with another trenardhrin if need be)
1x Trenardhrin (this is for morale balancing)
1x dwarf-silver flask.
1x Unrelenting Steel Chain

I'm using 1 devastate and 1 mastery setting, and 2 crit gems.

I'm at 8500ish crit after putting on the command set on (for pve dps) and i'm trying to bring that back up 9500ish, should have more morale too. I think I can get it back with another earring of wrath unleashed and echoing war bracelets. Not worried about losing offense rating at this point crit is killer.

I'm working on another build with 3 orthanc dps, 3 perseverance set (3 pieces with crit +700 crit bonus). Should be an insane ralling cry spammer at those crit levels. Even more crazy when you add the traits, and leg boost to devestating blow.

IMO the old skirm crit jewelry is so much better than the anduin might jewelry for dps.

this thread reads like capn are made of tissue paper.

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

this thread reads like capn are made of tissue paper.

LOL, I was thinking the same, while captains in our kin last night had nearly twice the morale of the burgs, and one was out-healing an RK while tanking a F&F giant.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

LOL, I was thinking the same, while captains in our kin last night had nearly twice the morale of the burgs, and one was out-healing an RK while tanking a F&F giant.

was the RK healing? how do you tank and heal more than an RK who should be healing you (the tank who is taking the most damage) as you heal others (that are taking less damage than you) out of your own morale?

Originally Posted by RJFerret

LOL, I was thinking the same, while captains in our kin last night had nearly twice the morale of the burgs, and one was out-healing an RK while tanking a F&F giant.

What was that RK doing? Spamming "Pick Nose"?

But for real, yeah I can personally attest that the ability to pump out RC's at ~70% strength while I tank is flippin' sweet. If the giant you tank is not the focus of any dps (say you're doing the burn 1-at-a-time method), Noble Mark is good enough to keep the aggro off the healers after the first minute. So that can leave some wiggle room for throwing out WoC while you tank. ShBro inspire's a mainstay for a captain tank, of course.
Now, all that said, I say a captain tank ain't gonna outheal an RK healer who's worth a damn.

I find it best to build for in what i would class as our 2 main stats.. Might and Vitality.

If your building for just these stats and not focusing on your crit/max power+ morale etc it is possible to have 1950might and 1550 vitality, I have managed to do this with my build which leaves you with high mitigations and morale aswell as your masterys.

Many captains I see either stack might or stack vit, its best to keep a well balanced build where you focus on either might or vit depending on what you are normally reuqired to do in raids ( for example many kinships have cappys off-tanking stuff in Orthanc and this vitality/mitigations means you take less damage therefore putting less stress on your healers)

I dont see the urgancy to build for crit aswell as you are required to sacrifice alot of vit/morale for only like a 5% increase in crit chance which too me dosnt sound like a very large number? I have 5050 crit rating with my build which is enough imo.

But many captains have different play-styles and I think its best to find how you think you should build and just do it

Originally Posted by Armitas

was the RK healing?

Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer

Now, all that said, I say a captain tank ain't gonna outheal an RK healer who's worth a damn.

Kinda' off topic to this thread, but since multiple asked...I find it amusing it's assumed the RK wasn't doing the best he could in the circumstances. Also the worth of anyone is not dependent on the abilities of someone else in a different situation.

That case was due to another tank's lag vis-à-vis controlling grims--remember an anecdote does not equal data. It was just interesting to highlight in the context of this thread and given stereotypes and expectations.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Crit comes in handy in a number of places, if you can build to about 20% crit, that means one out of every 5 heals (or HoT pulses) will crit, and if you're 4 LtC with that build, 1 out of 4 melee attacks crits.

Given a 20% tactical crit chance, Relentless Optmisim will give you the greatest improvement in healing, because you crit often enough for a 50% crit magnitude to make a fairly significant improvement in healing.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Kinda' off topic to this thread, but since multiple asked...I find it amusing it's assumed the RK wasn't doing the best he could in the circumstances. Also the worth of anyone is not dependent on the abilities of someone else in a different situation.

That case was due to another tank's lag vis-à-vis controlling grims--remember an anecdote does not equal data. It was just interesting to highlight in the context of this thread and given stereotypes and expectations.

Very amusing that I assumed the whole story was told in 2 sentences and gave an opinion 3x as long. Point taken, I'll ask for more info before judging. So please tell more details, I find stories involving captains riveting.

So what was the rest of the anecdote? That the captain-tank healed for example the burg more than the main healer RK did? I can see that with ShBro inspire and RC. Could take a load off the healer in T1. I guess this is still open ended: was the RK healing?

I think I need to amend my statement so I can stand by it with good conscience:
In an encounter where (Cappy-tank total heals) < 0.5*(total heals necessary to survive)
Meaning the RK is unable to spend time dpsing
Given a Cappy-tank and an RK healer both of quality >= 1 damn
Then this must be true (Cappy-tank total heals) < (RK total heals)
^ sound?

Yes might and vita is important but agility is also a nice stat it gives crit and hit.

Originally Posted by Robex

I find it best to build for in what i would class as our 2 main stats.. Might and Vitality.

If your building for just these stats and not focusing on your crit/max power+ morale etc it is possible to have 1950might and 1550 vitality, I have managed to do this with my build which leaves you with high mitigations and morale aswell as your masterys.

Many captains I see either stack might or stack vit, its best to keep a well balanced build where you focus on either might or vit depending on what you are normally reuqired to do in raids ( for example many kinships have cappys off-tanking stuff in Orthanc and this vitality/mitigations means you take less damage therefore putting less stress on your healers)

I dont see the urgancy to build for crit aswell as you are required to sacrifice alot of vit/morale for only like a 5% increase in crit chance which too me dosnt sound like a very large number? I have 5050 crit rating with my build which is enough imo.

But many captains have different play-styles and I think its best to find how you think you should build and just do it

What amount of ICPR would you have with this build? Or, at least, how do you handle power with it (lore-master, song-brother, etc)?

My question is, what's the difference between having 1500 might and 2000+? My might sits at 1560 something and my healing seems to be fine. For those who go for the huge might builds, what's the difference in OGH/DPS?

Originally Posted by Uron

My question is, what's the difference between having 1500 might and 2000+? My might sits at 1560 something and my healing seems to be fine. For those who go for the huge might builds, what's the difference in OGH/DPS?

With my might 2300+ and physical mastery over 36K buffed with 5 deep in LtC I can get over 1.2k dps in a raid (that's single target; multiple target is obviously higher). Now some people would ask why even bring a captain if all he's going to be doing is dps when a champ/hunter could do the same thing but even better. My reply is this: A captain can give his entire fellowship -15% attack speed from war cry (for basically the entire fight) and an increase in damage from brother in arms (amount is greater for actual blade brother) for half the fight. This is in addition to IDOME or OB (depending on situational need). So although a fully traited captain will not do the dps of a champ/hunter, his overall contribution to the fellowship will often times make up for it and then some. And notice, this is w/o doing a single heal. Throwing in the occasional rally cry really isn't going to slow down your dps much, but it will provide the fellowship with morale and much needed power.

Now the question that many are wanting to ask is, what is my morale at? My morale is usually about 7.5k buffed with this setup. But in agreement with previous posts, as long as my morale is at the same level as the burg and champ next to me, I'm not at much of a disadvantage. In fact, I am going to have more armour value and greater mits than the burg right next to me. And more than that, I do less damage and am less likely to pull agro than my companions. That being said, sure i'll build up a little more vit for a Saruman run where everyone takes AOE damage to some extent from the bosses. But if you're a captain with 9-10k+ morale, and your morale never drops below 6-7k, then you're doing your fellowship a disservice by not providing the additional heals or dps that you would get from the might you're sacrificing.

A couple final thoughts on the might are: if you're just looking to provide healing support, all you need is enough might to cap your outgoing healing (which is probably around 2k for most people). If you are looking to pull your weight as a DPSer, then you will want to get your physical mastery and your crit rating as high as possible.

Originally Posted by Nidagnest

With my might 2300+ and physical mastery over 36K buffed with 5 deep in LtC I can get over 1.2k dps in a raid (that's single target; multiple target is obviously higher). Now some people would ask why even bring a captain if all he's going to be doing is dps when a champ/hunter could do the same thing but even better. My reply is this: A captain can give his entire fellowship -15% attack speed from war cry (for basically the entire fight) and an increase in damage from brother in arms (amount is greater for actual blade brother) for half the fight. This is in addition to IDOME or OB (depending on situational need). So although a fully traited captain will not do the dps of a champ/hunter, his overall contribution to the fellowship will often times make up for it and then some. And notice, this is w/o doing a single heal. Throwing in the occasional rally cry really isn't going to slow down your dps much, but it will provide the fellowship with morale and much needed power.

Now the question that many are wanting to ask is, what is my morale at? My morale is usually about 7.5k buffed with this setup. But in agreement with previous posts, as long as my morale is at the same level as the burg and champ next to me, I'm not at much of a disadvantage. In fact, I am going to have more armour value and greater mits than the burg right next to me. And more than that, I do less damage and am less likely to pull agro than my companions. That being said, sure i'll build up a little more vit for a Saruman run where everyone takes AOE damage to some extent from the bosses. But if you're a captain with 9-10k+ morale, and your morale never drops below 6-7k, then you're doing your fellowship a disservice by not providing the additional heals or dps that you would get from the might you're sacrificing.

A couple final thoughts on the might are: if you're just looking to provide healing support, all you need is enough might to cap your outgoing healing (which is probably around 2k for most people). If you are looking to pull your weight as a DPSer, then you will want to get your physical mastery and your crit rating as high as possible.

While I am quite a fan of LtC Crit / Cry Captain builds with high Might I am not convinced that going to such an extreme really has any benefits. I wonder if you could share some parses of, say, Kalbak (lightning t2) fight with a 2.3K+ might build versus a 1.8 /1.9K Might build. Are you really getting a significant amount of extra dps / heals from that Might? Considering that the major impact comes from %age legacies and not OGH and that all your fellowship bonuses are independent of your Might levels.

I ask because sitting at ~8K buffed and taking a big hit (3-4K crit / deva for example) would make the healer panic as you are suddenly at 50% and put some attention on you as opposed to the Tank. Keep in mind they already have to heal that squishy Burg while the Champ uses its bubble and waits for your coming RC. In a higher Vitality / Morale set-up (I don't know if you cap Tactical Mitigations in your build?) you could be sitting at around 11-12K buffed, perhaps with better mitigations as well, and that same hit would not worry the healer 1 bit. They'd know that at 2/3 morale you are sill ok and a RC will sort you out on your own.

Originally Posted by Ravenstride

I ask because sitting at ~8K buffed and taking a big hit (3-4K crit / deva for example) would make the healer panic as you are suddenly at 50% and put some attention on you as opposed to the Tank. Keep in mind they already have to heal that squishy Burg while the Champ uses its bubble and waits for your coming RC.

Why doesn't the burg stack more morale and not stress the healer? What is so special about us that we are the ones that must make the compromise that others are excluded from making. Why are we the burden that needs adjusting but not the burg?

If there were no cappies would we ask 1 of the burgs to go stack morale? If anything the burg should be required to have more morale then us since they have lower mitigations.

Originally Posted by Ravenstride

While I am quite a fan of LtC Crit / Cry Captain builds with high Might I am not convinced that going to such an extreme really has any benefits. I wonder if you could share some parses of, say, Kalbak (lightning t2) fight with a 2.3K+ might build versus a 1.8 /1.9K Might build. Are you really getting a significant amount of extra dps / heals from that Might? Considering that the major impact comes from %age legacies and not OGH and that all your fellowship bonuses are independent of your Might levels.

I ask because sitting at ~8K buffed and taking a big hit (3-4K crit / deva for example) would make the healer panic as you are suddenly at 50% and put some attention on you as opposed to the Tank. Keep in mind they already have to heal that squishy Burg while the Champ uses its bubble and waits for your coming RC. In a higher Vitality / Morale set-up (I don't know if you cap Tactical Mitigations in your build?) you could be sitting at around 11-12K buffed, perhaps with better mitigations as well, and that same hit would not worry the healer 1 bit. They'd know that at 2/3 morale you are sill ok and a RC will sort you out on your own.

Kalbak is one of those boss fights where there is some AOE damage (Bukot for example is one w/o AOE damage). But a hit that gets me for 3-4k is gonna hit the burg next to me for 4-5k (maybe 6k). I don't find that healers ever have to throw single heals on me. With writs of healing and other AOE heals (including my own RC from crits) plus morale pots, I am not a burden to the healing. Now, as I said before, if the fight is similar in nature to Saruman where this sort of AOE damage occurs with meaningful frequency, then I would build up more morale (as would any class). Now I can't give you numbers for each boss under various physical mastery builds, but I can tell you that morale over 10k is excessive. A captain that is just healing will be replaced by a real healer. I don't think you can justify bringing a captain along in many situations (and to be fair, many times only one captain is required) if he can't at least put out moderate dps.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

This is a wishy-washy topic, but I was wondering about some of your opinions. What's the difference in a captain's effectiveness with 1000 might, 1500 might, or 2000 might? Does it matter at all in Tier 1 raids? Does it matter in the Ettenmoors? Would you pass on that great might earring to give it to your kin's champ?

This is actually a very good question - and I've done a lot of testing on this. The simple answer is they matter - but often-times not in the way people think.

For example, I can't tell you how many captains have told me because I don't have over 2,000 might I won't be able to heal very well. Then I'll see these same captains in action, and their healing is horrid yet they think they are acceptable at it because they have over 2k might. It's kinda funny.

So to sum up what I'm saying - stats don't make a player good. What makes the most difference is how the Captain manages his skills - so skill and experience is the defining factor, as it should be.

However - that being said - it should be noted a skilled and experienced Captain with higher stats is obviously going to out-perform a Captain of equal skill but lesser gear. But it isn't the defining factor - and if you're having trouble for example healing something other captains can - it's most likely because of the way you are playing, and not because that other captain has 5 or 10% more outgoing healing than you. That's not the reason, and that's not going to make the difference.