Has anyone been on the bullroarer to test out EoBs threat? I will probably try and test out EoB threat later in the week, when I have some time, but if anyone can do it in the meantime, that would be great. I did a quick test with TV traited along with the max fi-sp legacy, and only got 12000 damage of threat. This is roughly the same amount of threat I get without the threat legacy or TV, on live.
I need to do a better set of tests, and will try to later in the week, but please, feel free to beat me to the punch and post your own findings.
if its 12k damage worth of threat than EoB has 1 initial and 4 overtime so total 5 pulse of threat. means every pulse is 2,4k.
after first 2.4k damage threat until the next pulse how high can a hunter dps? if its 1.2k dps. than 4.8k for every 4 sec. which means were going to fail so bad on tanking.
from another point of view. 12k damage threat for 16 sec. 12/16k dps worth agro means 750 damage per sec.
so if eob wont stack its agro. we will going to use a cycle like this:
EoB-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-EoB-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc.
which means no self heal. very rarely self buffs. we will be hunters death sentence and heallers burdens.
i hope its higher than that.
my expectation is 1 eob will be enough to hold agro so we will have enough time for buffs.
assuming a hunter can do 1.2k dps max. (target changes getting position etc etc cant get as high as training dummies can they?)
1.2k x 16 = 19,2. rounded 20k. if complate agro worth of EoB gets at least 20k that would be best.
im personally against of agro leeces cuz if dps target is in other tanks pull. than we take them and it has a high risk. i would prefer targeted threat generator skills more than xfers. so, vote for EoB!!!
another thing is wc doesnt get benefit from any legacy now. and it has seem a group heal additionally threat generation. which gave me a reason to use it. is there any one still uses war cry?
EoB alone effects like using wc every 1 sec or even better.
Personally, I would like to know how you came up with your number of threat, as Turbine keeps that set of number not available to the populace.
The easy way would be to just pop an EoB on a tree in Limlight, wait 15 seconds and have somebody go to town and find out at what point the tree switches aggro. Live, the tree can be killed with 1 EoB + TV and never switch aggro, so more than 70k worth of EoB damage threat. I just don't have the time or extra bandwidth to download BR and test it again myself.
The easy way would be to just pop an EoB on a tree in Limlight, wait 15 seconds and have somebody go to town and find out at what point the tree switches aggro. Live, the tree can be killed with 1 EoB + TV and never switch aggro, so more than 70k worth of EoB damage threat. I just don't have the time or extra bandwidth to download BR and test it again myself.
Exactly what horus said, though I go in Urugarth and grab a boss with a friend so that i don't have to worry about dying, or the added heals it would take to avoid dying adding to my threat output.
Edit: Not sure whether the problem lies with me or something is buggy, I had no traits slotted that would have an effect on threat besides TV where noted, and had the following test results:
hitting one fully masteried EoB and no auto-attacks:
TV+fully leveled Fi-Sp threat legacy: try 1) 13k morale threat, 2) 17,500 3) 13k
Just Fi-Sp threat legacy: 1) 20k, 2) 13k, 3) 13k
No TV or Legacy 1) 9k, 2)9k
TV + no legacy 1) 14k, 2) 14k
I would love to see someone else try this out, as I'm not sure why i'm getting inconsistent results sometimes. We are definitely taking longer than the 15 or 16 seconds to pull dps aggro, so threat from EoB should not be ticking any more.
Last edited by spelunker; Apr 12 2012 at 08:14 PM.
I would love to see someone else try this out, as I'm not sure why i'm getting inconsistent results sometimes. We are definitely taking longer than the 15 or 16 seconds to pull dps aggro, so threat from EoB should not be ticking any more.
I was told long ago (lacking the patience it would take to confirm this) that taunts can crit based on what used to be the tactical critical rating. I assume they can still crit now based on the unified Critical Rating, which may have been what you were seeing here.
It also makes sense if Turbine bases and measures threat off of damage like it sounds like they do (Graal gave approximation threat terms in relation to damage output). Damage can crit, so it would follow that the threat that is like "phantom damage" can also crit.
... how high can a hunter dps? if its 1.2k dps. than 4.8k for every 4 sec. which means were going to fail so bad on tanking.
from another point of view. 12k damage threat for 16 sec. 12/16k dps worth agro means 750 damage per sec.
so if eob wont stack its agro. we will going to use a cycle like this:
EoB-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-EoB-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc.
which means no self heal. very rarely self buffs. we will be hunters death sentence and heallers burdens ...
A warden can get 1.2k DPS if built for it; hunters and champs are probably more like 2k+. My warden is my only 75 so I don't have any hunter/champ parses to confirm, but I would hope they do much more damage than we do since it's their primary job.
The good news is that all threat-over-time effects stack whether from the same skill, same tier different skill, different tiers, whatever. ToT always stacks, this has been dev confirmed. You'll still need 2 or 3 ticking away at a time, but it probably won't be too bad. And EoB is itself a nice heal, especially when you have multiple targets.
if its 12k damage worth of threat than EoB has 1 initial and 4 overtime so total 5 pulse of threat. means every pulse is 2,4k.
after first 2.4k damage threat until the next pulse how high can a hunter dps? if its 1.2k dps. than 4.8k for every 4 sec. which means were going to fail so bad on tanking.
from another point of view. 12k damage threat for 16 sec. 12/16k dps worth agro means 750 damage per sec.
so if eob wont stack its agro. we will going to use a cycle like this:
EoB-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-EoB-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc-wc.
which means no self heal. very rarely self buffs. we will be hunters death sentence and heallers burdens.
It's not that bad the test doesn't include even auto attacks so everything else you do including self heals and gambit builders will generate threat and EoB is a self heal just spam it until you get 10 heal ticks and your golden . Though if the object was to stop us from relying on EoB the solution may have backfired if they haven't uped out other skills threat levels, we are either useless or we spam it even more because it is still the best choice just for the heals+threat.
[QUOTE=Nydorewyth;6106071]A warden can get 1.2k DPS if built for it; hunters and champs are probably more like 2k+.
Exactly, I can DPS 1k on my warden with a fair but not very good might build. Top hunters are hitting close to 2k and sometimes above it. RKs can crit 5k +, burgs can bring the pain as all as anyone when in position, and we all know about champs. And healers tend to draw the attention of enemies as well (just a little!). So yeah, if EoB gets nerfed and another threat skill doesn't get significantly upgraded so that we can do the same thing we are doing now- quickly getting and keeping threat- we are gonna be in trouble all over again. And getting a few threat skills upgraded so that if you use them with EoB you can hold aggro is NOT what I am talking about. If you can't lock down threat quickly, you can't work on defense and self heals. Also, DC getting fixed won't do a thing if our threat takes a hit. A force taunt is nice, but when it wears off (which it will quickly do), you are right back to where you were before- in a situation where you couldn't hold aggro and had to force taunt to get it. DC will help survivability, but if you are alive thanks to a reuction on incoming damage but your group is dead because you could not sustain threat, it is not really a good thing.
Wardens are good right now. Almost what they should be. I am saddened at the prospect of being broken again when 6.1 hits.
A warden can get 1.2k DPS if built for it; hunters and champs are probably more like 2k+.
Exactly, I can DPS 1k on my warden with a fair but not very good might build. Top hunters are hitting close to 2k and sometimes above it. RKs can crit 5k +, burgs can bring the pain as all as anyone when in position, and we all know about champs. And healers tend to draw the attention of enemies as well (just a little!). So yeah, if EoB gets nerfed and another threat skill doesn't get significantly upgraded so that we can do the same thing we are doing now- quickly getting and keeping threat- we are gonna be in trouble all over again. And getting a few threat skills upgraded so that if you use them with EoB you can hold aggro is NOT what I am talking about. If you can't lock down threat quickly, you can't work on defense and self heals. Also, DC getting fixed won't do a thing if our threat takes a hit. A force taunt is nice, but when it wears off (which it will quickly do), you are right back to where you were before- in a situation where you couldn't hold aggro and had to force taunt to get it. DC will help survivability, but if you are alive thanks to a reuction on incoming damage but your group is dead because you could not sustain threat, it is not really a good thing.
Wardens are good right now. Almost what they should be. I am saddened at the prospect of being broken again when 6.1 hits.
Have a look at Glorno's RoF video. He never uses EoB once. EoB is great, and better threat/gambit than any other gambit. But that doesn't mean everything else is ####. Dance of War, Conviction, Surety of Death, and even Celebration of Skill all will raise your threat as well while providing other buffs at the same time. I'd like to see Aggression give more threat than it does since its a pure threat skill, but we've got a pretty good toolchest as it stands.
Also, just an observation: Since RoI, it seems threat has become entirely the tanks job. What ever happened to other classes moderating their own threat? I always thought the threat game worked collaboratively. Both the tank and the fellowship need to work together to ensure that the tank maintains threat. I've got great threat-down skills as a healer. Hunters have threat down skills and a low threat stance. Champs have great threat transfer skills. Is the problem simply that most fights are DPS races now? Or is everyone just used to godlike threat output of guards and wardens in RoI? Or is it that getting aggro has such bad consequences with mitigation disparities and finesse?
Also, just an observation: Since RoI, it seems threat has become entirely the tanks job. What ever happened to other classes moderating their own threat? I always thought the threat game worked collaboratively. Both the tank and the fellowship need to work together to ensure that the tank maintains threat. I've got great threat-down skills as a healer. Hunters have threat down skills and a low threat stance. Champs have great threat transfer skills. Is the problem simply that most fights are DPS races now? Or is everyone just used to godlike threat output of guards and wardens in RoI? Or is it that getting aggro has such bad consequences with mitigation disparities and finesse?
--Harper
Good point. If we have a Guard tanking and we need tons of DPS, we don't just say "everyone go all out, the Guard can hold it!". We use provokes, threat downs, and anything to help keep the aggro on the Guard as much as possible. I get the feeling from these forums that if it's a Warden instead of a Guard they don't deserve the same help with aggro that a Guard (and really any tank) would get. Why not? Wardens can also get help holding aggro and there's nothing wrong with that.
Champs have great threat transfer skills.
--Harper
The game mentality has shifted to, we can DPS it down quick, rather than worry about managing aggro over all. However, the statement I highlited, Orion nerfed that by making it so they could only bleed aggro off in one stance back a few updates. In other stances, the same skill gains aggro.
I once had a cool sig,
That Turbine shortened and did not dig.
So now, all I can do is dance a silent jig.
Since RoI, it seems threat has become entirely the tanks job. What ever happened to other classes moderating their own threat? I always thought the threat game worked collaboratively.
They've been making the classes narrower and narrower, so really it seems like they DO want each class to worry about one thing, and in the case of tanks that's aggro.
In my opinion removing stat caps and the newish "itemization" stuff was a big part of this - itemization was advertized to give everyone MORE flexibility in choosing what they want to focus on with our gear, but pretty much it leads to stacking one primary stat to create an unbalanced build. With Champ might and Hunter agility skyrocketing post-RoI, the game itself encourages them to maximize damage at the expense of all else. That doesn't mean they can't use threat-down or ebbing skills, but it pushes those types of skills to the back of their minds because the game tells them to focus only on damage.
With stat caps and balanced gear, there didn't used to be such a huge difference from class to class, so it was better for everyone to work together and deal with each class' strengths and weaknesses. But now it's "champ shing" and "hunter pew" and "mini heal" and "tank yell" and if you wipe then someone wasn't doing their One True Job. Not that that's the right way to go, but that seems to be a result.
Have a look at Glorno's RoF video. He never uses EoB once. EoB is great, and better threat/gambit than any other gambit. But that doesn't mean everything else is ####. Dance of War, Conviction, Surety of Death, and even Celebration of Skill all will raise your threat as well while providing other buffs at the same time. I'd like to see Aggression give more threat than it does since its a pure threat skill, but we've got a pretty good toolchest as it stands.
--Harper
I have not seen the video (feel free to remind me of the link and I'll take a look). I would bet that it shows the group waiting for 2-3 gambits before attacking or healing, and I would also bet he is not tanking the adds, just the boss. If everyone is jumping in at the start and he is able to grab the boss right away and also the adds before they get on someone else without using EoB, I will be amazed. Now, you could say that groups simply need to wait for a few gambits before starting, but the reality is that this is very unlikely to happen unless you run with the same group all the time, they know that they need to do this, and they accept it, and many of us don't have the luxury of running with the same group of understanding players all the time. Additionally, the limitation with DoW and Conviction is that they are threat transfers, so at the start of a fight they don't do much for threat generation. The rest of the group has to build threat that can be transferred first. And they don't work as well in a 6 person group as with 12 because there are fewer people to transfer from. Part of the problem is that people are used to running with guards who can force taunt with only a 30 second cool down when traited for it so they do not expect to wait and often won't wait and the fact they may have to is viewed as a weakness of the warden class.
I have not seen the video (feel free to remind me of the link and I'll take a look). I would bet that it shows the group waiting for 2-3 gambits before attacking or healing, and I would also bet he is not tanking the adds, just the boss. If everyone is jumping in at the start and he is able to grab the boss right away and also the adds before they get on someone else without using EoB, I will be amazed. Now, you could say that groups simply need to wait for a few gambits before starting, but the reality is that this is very unlikely to happen unless you run with the same group all the time, they know that they need to do this, and they accept it, and many of us don't have the luxury of running with the same group of understanding players all the time. Additionally, the limitation with DoW and Conviction is that they are threat transfers, so at the start of a fight they don't do much for threat generation. The rest of the group has to build threat that can be transferred first. And they don't work as well in a 6 person group as with 12 because there are fewer people to transfer from. Part of the problem is that people are used to running with guards who can force taunt with only a 30 second cool down when traited for it so they do not expect to wait and often won't wait and the fact they may have to is viewed as a weakness of the warden class.
You assume way too much without watching the video.
I don't understand why you think the group needs to wait to do anything, other than letting the warden initiate combat? That's just one thing you've got wrong... just watch the vid.
edit to add... wardens don't transfer threat from an entire 12 person raid, just the toons in their own group. Do you play a warden?
They've been making the classes narrower and narrower, so really it seems like they DO want each class to worry about one thing, and in the case of tanks that's aggro.
In my opinion removing stat caps and the newish "itemization" stuff was a big part of this - itemization was advertized to give everyone MORE flexibility in choosing what they want to focus on with our gear, but pretty much it leads to stacking one primary stat to create an unbalanced build. With Champ might and Hunter agility skyrocketing post-RoI, the game itself encourages them to maximize damage at the expense of all else. That doesn't mean they can't use threat-down or ebbing skills, but it pushes those types of skills to the back of their minds because the game tells them to focus only on damage.
With stat caps and balanced gear, there didn't used to be such a huge difference from class to class, so it was better for everyone to work together and deal with each class' strengths and weaknesses. But now it's "champ shing" and "hunter pew" and "mini heal" and "tank yell" and if you wipe then someone wasn't doing their One True Job. Not that that's the right way to go, but that seems to be a result.
If they would at least bring back balanced gear it would probably open up the classes again I mean when you see champs who have put so much into might that they actually have significantly less morale and power then they did 10 levels previous something is wrong.
My understanding of hunter threat is that it is mostly passive and depends on the individual's ability to "feel" the amount of aggro the tank is able to put out (speaking from Belec's perspective and not Bryn's).
Hunters' threat down is mostly passive in that there is only one stance (Endurance) and one skill (Improved Beneath Notice) to semi-actively manage threat. Active threat down is actually nill because IBN has a long cooldown of 5 minutes and only counts for 10s (20s if traited) of percieved threat after which all threat is regained. Endurance Quick Shots are slight detaunts but if it crits it'll actually end up threat positive (raid environments can see ~40% crit chances).
Regarding passives there's the threat book, and the trait Stealthy Shot. Unfortunately power is an issue for alot of hunters (high on agi, low on everything) and they use the -power book over threat. The trait Stealthy Shot, while quite good, is in a lackluster yellow line that most avoid and instead take MOAR dps via two blue or red. Endurance Stance is one of the bigger passives as running it will lower raw dps a rather large amount (~20%) and it also makes Improved Fleetness rather clunky to use. The rare good hunter slowly ramps up dps in Endurance for about 10s, switching to Precision for the remainder of the fight.
In short, hunter dps can get very high (AoE with +5 targets and single target) but they have limited tools to lose aggro if they actually gain it. If that happens, the tank regains aggro mostly of their own doing and not of the hunter's doing.
In a group situation, if I'm a group leader, I'm going to pick the tank (player and class) that is not going to have difficulties managing the ill-designed threat/dps output of the most common dps class in the game.
The worm population was on a steep decline in Moria with no explanation.
Orcs claim a crazy hobbit, some elf, a captain and one crazy @#$ warden were responsible but no witnesses can confirm it
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Originally Posted by Darlgon
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. Though if the object was to stop us from relying on EoB the solution may have backfired if they haven't uped out other skills threat levels, we are either useless or we spam it even more because it is still the best choice just for the heals+threat.
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