Thread: Update 7: If I were Orion, and in Charge of Hunters...

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Creep goggles because of what? I dont like facerolling?

Apparently you do, coming onto the hunter forums to say they're fine is really just saying "Please don't shut off my source of easy infamy" and everyone knows it.

Originally Posted by Nuth_KM

let's not derail the topic .. m'kay :P Since you are so vocal on what the Hunter class should or shouldn't have.. I'm guessing most of us are really interested in understanding if you have a Hunter. Since almost all of the Hunters here, whether proponents or opponents, are expressing their views on what they feel the Hunter needs.. it would be likewise invaluable to understand your perspective. If you don't have a Hunter.. that's okay.. admit to it.. admit that you have a creep-side perspective, embrace your position in the discourse and move on with your points. But don't try and hide behind some veiled trolling attempt or falsehood relative to your experience with the class. It does detract from any kind of point you attempt to make.

Heh.....No one here is interested in my perspective. Because of my sig, they automatically label me a troll , someone with creep goggles, a person who wants freep classes nerfed into the ground, etc etc. Doesnt really bother me, im used to it but it is what it is.

Just so you know though, i do have a Hunter. I know plenty about the ups and downs of the class since launch.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Im here to educate and make sure my hunter isnt walking around w/ bubble cds and 3/4 morale instant heal skills on a 5 min cd. Thats not a hunter, thats a faceroller.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

I dont have a Hunter, I get all my info from Lotro-Wiki about every class except Warleader. Its quite the database...

You don't know hunters.... yet you're here to educate us on how to play one/what we need and don't need. Right.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Creep goggles because of what? I dont like facerolling? Apparently you do though since youve decided to rank up a Champ.....

No, creep goggles because you've clearly never understood the challenges of freepside hunters and only present the biased opinion of "Creeps are underpowered and always have been" or "Hunters are OP, they can 1 shot me with every buff in the book on them". Yes, that kind of opinion is frustrating to other players at best, just plain ignorant at worst.

Originally Posted by Bond007

You don't know hunters.... yet you're here to educate us on how to play one/what we need and don't need. Right.

Sarcasm eludes you.....

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Heh.....No one here is interested in my perspective. Because of my sig, they automatically label me a troll , someone with creep goggles, a person who wants freep classes nerfed into the ground, etc etc. Doesnt really bother me, im used to it but it is what it is.

Just so you know though, i do have a Hunter. I know plenty about the ups and downs of the class since launch.

great! What's your Hunter's name?

@''Creep''
I'm also sure that regardless of whatever class, you are bound to find both good and bad players.

By the way, how archers/hunters work in session play do not represent our class whatsoever.

Please play our class if you are to have any further comments.

Thank you.
~A Hunter with over 4,000 hours logged onto the single character.

_______

@Hunters
I was happy about the comments that were suggestions and player's thoughts about where hunters should be revised. Several are right in that we shouldn't be too greedy in asking for whatever changes we should have. However, that said, I find it hard to say that we do not deserve a more major change when we are steadily falling behind in terms of playability, originality, and usefulness within content.

Every other class has something that really sets them apart from one another, in a positive light.

Lets be something besides an immobile turret class.

_______


To everyone, I say, listen to the voices of people on this board. Read through other player ideas, not just my own. We need to agree on a set of changes and move forward with them, or not at all. Getting our bugs fixed is a great step in a forward direction. Its not the only step that should be made.

Simplify, Simplify

It's probably blasphemy to say it, but I really am quite happy with where Hunters are now. Since I rolled my first Hunter (who can be considered my "main") almost five years ago, I've seen quite a few different eras for the class, and compared to more than a few of them, the class rocks today.

That doesn't mean it's perfect, and there's plenty I would like to see improved, but add me to the chorus of players who don't think the class needs a radical rebuild. Far too much of what the Hunter is today is based on years of experience and refinement, With Wardens already held out as a cautionary example, we can plainly see that too much change, too fast, is far more likely to break more than it would fix.

Some folks complain about "dumbing down" the class, but as someone who's been playing it for almost five years, I would prefer to see things simplified, with any form of complexity reserved for special situations. "Simple" doesn't have to mean "stupid". To me, "stupid" is having to push a lot of extra buttons to do something that doesn't need to be so hard. That shouldn't eliminate strategy from the class, but rather work to make implementing strategies easier but cutting down on the clutter.

My wish list is fairly modest, and mainly focuses on making combat smoother and easier to manage. I don't think we need new stances, for example, but rather clearer roles for each and better advantages for using one versus the other.

My ideal stance paradigm for Hunters would be:

Strength Stance: The high-threat, high-power, high-DPS stance. No matter what, with all else remaining equal, this stance should always give the highest DPS parses. In this stance, you stand there and dish out the pain. It's crude, it's brutal, and it's the highest single-target DPS in the game, with AoE skills like RoA and Split Shot dealing respectable damage, but not putting Champions out of a job. That's all it needs to be. Whether grouping or solo, if you're out to be the "nuker", you're in this stance. This stance would roll in the effects of Burn Hot and deliver insane damage for a price. Sucks power like a hog and draws aggro like a Guardian's taunt, so shoot responsibly.

Endurance Stance: The low-threat, low-power, medium-DPS stance. In this stance, you can lay into the mobs with everything you've got and rarely pull aggro from a decent tank. You can also keep shooting 'til the cows come home and rarely run out of power. Both would still be possible, though, so some skill would be needed. This stance would roll in the effects of Beneath Notice and would offer a good balance between damage, power use and threat. This stance could also offer some nice buffs and cooldown reductions to crowd control skills to allow the Hunter to do more than just stand around rolling through an unchanging litany of skills, and focus more on helping manage the battle with the group.

Precision Stance: The high-mobility, medium-power, low-DPS kiting stance. The focus is on precision, just like on the tin, but Fleetness is rolled into this. There is no movement miss penalty in Precision stance. At all. You shoot, you scoot, and get focus pips the whole while. You can use all your combat skills, including induction skills, on the fly, making this the ultimate kiting stance. You also get an in-combat movement speed buff of +8%, basically half of Find the Path's non-combat buff. The tradeoff for all this mobility is the lowest DPS of all the stances, but considering the fact that you can literally fight non-stop, stay on the run, outrun most mobs in combat and never need to pause to take a breather, you can afford to sacrifice some of your nukage mojo.

We all have our own ideas of what would be best, and they will naturally differ. But my dream for the class is to see the stances offer these playstyle options, reduce the number of button-clicky gimmick skills by incorporating their benefits into the stances themselves and let me concentrate on what I love most: the pew-pew.

YMMV, and I'll keep dreaming.

Originally Posted by Majic

Simplify, Simplify

It's probably blasphemy to say it, but I really am quite happy with where Hunters are now. Since I rolled my first Hunter (who can be considered my "main") almost five years ago, I've seen quite a few different eras for the class, and compared to more than a few of them, the class rocks today.
...
My ideal stance paradigm for Hunters would be:

Strength Stance: The high-threat, high-power, high-DPS stance. No matter what, with all else remaining equal, this stance should always give the highest DPS parses. In this stance, you stand there and dish out the pain. It's crude, it's brutal, and it's the highest single-target DPS in the game, with AoE skills like RoA and Split Shot dealing respectable damage, but not putting Champions out of a job. That's all it needs to be. Whether grouping or solo, if you're out to be the "nuker", you're in this stance. This stance would roll in the effects of Burn Hot and deliver insane damage for a price. Sucks power like a hog and draws aggro like a Guardian's taunt, so shoot responsibly.

Endurance Stance: The low-threat, low-power, medium-DPS stance. In this stance, you can lay into the mobs with everything you've got and rarely pull aggro from a decent tank. You can also keep shooting 'til the cows come home and rarely run out of power. Both would still be possible, though, so some skill would be needed. This stance would roll in the effects of Beneath Notice and would offer a good balance between damage, power use and threat. This stance could also offer some nice buffs and cooldown reductions to crowd control skills to allow the Hunter to do more than just stand around rolling through an unchanging litany of skills, and focus more on helping manage the battle with the group.

Precision Stance: The high-mobility, medium-power, low-DPS kiting stance. The focus is on precision, just like on the tin, but Fleetness is rolled into this. There is no movement miss penalty in Precision stance. At all. You shoot, you scoot, and get focus pips the whole while. You can use all your combat skills, including induction skills, on the fly, making this the ultimate kiting stance. You also get an in-combat movement speed buff of +8%, basically half of Find the Path's non-combat buff. The tradeoff for all this mobility is the lowest DPS of all the stances, but considering the fact that you can literally fight non-stop, stay on the run, outrun most mobs in combat and never need to pause to take a breather, you can afford to sacrifice some of your nukage mojo.

We all have our own ideas of what would be best, and they will naturally differ. But my dream for the class is to see the stances offer these playstyle options, reduce the number of button-clicky gimmick skills by incorporating their benefits into the stances themselves and let me concentrate on what I love most: the pew-pew.

YMMV, and I'll keep dreaming.

This is excellent. However, Precision stance should not be the lowest DPS. Precision to me, means hitting critical areas more often with "precise", definitive attacks. Endurance should be the lowest of the DPS outputs for obvious reasons (slow measured and sustained attack). that said, It should not out DPS Strength but have the potential for devastating critical hits when used correctly.

Being able to kite is definitely a needed ability for all 'stances'. I would say that if you are kiting in Precision, you take a small penalty to hit but if you stop to fire your % chance to hit increases drastically or perhaps moreso as you take even more time to "aim". So a shot where you hold down and release after the aim continues to build (thereby increasing your hit % and crit %) might be worth considering.

I don't have your experience with the class. Still, your ideas are logical and show insight considerable insight. Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Majic

Simplify, Simplify

It's probably blasphemy to say it, but I really am quite happy with where Hunters are now. Since I rolled my first Hunter (who can be considered my "main") almost five years ago, I've seen quite a few different eras for the class, and compared to more than a few of them, the class rocks today.

That doesn't mean it's perfect, and there's plenty I would like to see improved, but add me to the chorus of players who don't think the class needs a radical rebuild. Far too much of what the Hunter is today is based on years of experience and refinement, With Wardens already held out as a cautionary example, we can plainly see that too much change, too fast, is far more likely to break more than it would fix.

Some folks complain about "dumbing down" the class, but as someone who's been playing it for almost five years, I would prefer to see things simplified, with any form of complexity reserved for special situations. "Simple" doesn't have to mean "stupid". To me, "stupid" is having to push a lot of extra buttons to do something that doesn't need to be so hard. That shouldn't eliminate strategy from the class, but rather work to make implementing strategies easier but cutting down on the clutter.

My wish list is fairly modest, and mainly focuses on making combat smoother and easier to manage. I don't think we need new stances, for example, but rather clearer roles for each and better advantages for using one versus the other.

My ideal stance paradigm for Hunters would be:

Strength Stance: The high-threat, high-power, high-DPS stance. No matter what, with all else remaining equal, this stance should always give the highest DPS parses. In this stance, you stand there and dish out the pain. It's crude, it's brutal, and it's the highest single-target DPS in the game, with AoE skills like RoA and Split Shot dealing respectable damage, but not putting Champions out of a job. That's all it needs to be. Whether grouping or solo, if you're out to be the "nuker", you're in this stance. This stance would roll in the effects of Burn Hot and deliver insane damage for a price. Sucks power like a hog and draws aggro like a Guardian's taunt, so shoot responsibly.

Endurance Stance: The low-threat, low-power, medium-DPS stance. In this stance, you can lay into the mobs with everything you've got and rarely pull aggro from a decent tank. You can also keep shooting 'til the cows come home and rarely run out of power. Both would still be possible, though, so some skill would be needed. This stance would roll in the effects of Beneath Notice and would offer a good balance between damage, power use and threat. This stance could also offer some nice buffs and cooldown reductions to crowd control skills to allow the Hunter to do more than just stand around rolling through an unchanging litany of skills, and focus more on helping manage the battle with the group.

Precision Stance: The high-mobility, medium-power, low-DPS kiting stance. The focus is on precision, just like on the tin, but Fleetness is rolled into this. There is no movement miss penalty in Precision stance. At all. You shoot, you scoot, and get focus pips the whole while. You can use all your combat skills, including induction skills, on the fly, making this the ultimate kiting stance. You also get an in-combat movement speed buff of +8%, basically half of Find the Path's non-combat buff. The tradeoff for all this mobility is the lowest DPS of all the stances, but considering the fact that you can literally fight non-stop, stay on the run, outrun most mobs in combat and never need to pause to take a breather, you can afford to sacrifice some of your nukage mojo.

We all have our own ideas of what would be best, and they will naturally differ. But my dream for the class is to see the stances offer these playstyle options, reduce the number of button-clicky gimmick skills by incorporating their benefits into the stances themselves and let me concentrate on what I love most: the pew-pew.

YMMV, and I'll keep dreaming.

Ya know... I thought I wouldn't like something like this... But.... it makes soooo much sense with post-RoI changes. This kind of style would help a lot to clarify the advantages/disadvantages to each stance or role of DPS.
That said, clarifying stances is not our most needed change by a long run, and the devs need to get a clue and step up to the plate before we can even start pitching.
+ rep, any which way. Solid ideas overall, just change the name of precision stance if it's gonna be low damage... precision and low damage don't go together

Originally Posted by Majic

Simplify, Simplify


My ideal stance paradigm for Hunters would be:

Strength Stance: The high-threat, high-power, high-DPS stance. No matter what, with all else remaining equal, this stance should always give the highest DPS parses. In this stance, you stand there and dish out the pain. It's crude, it's brutal, and it's the highest single-target DPS in the game, with AoE skills like RoA and Split Shot dealing respectable damage, but not putting Champions out of a job. That's all it needs to be. Whether grouping or solo, if you're out to be the "nuker", you're in this stance. This stance would roll in the effects of Burn Hot and deliver insane damage for a price. Sucks power like a hog and draws aggro like a Guardian's taunt, so shoot responsibly.

Endurance Stance: The low-threat, low-power, medium-DPS stance. In this stance, you can lay into the mobs with everything you've got and rarely pull aggro from a decent tank. You can also keep shooting 'til the cows come home and rarely run out of power. Both would still be possible, though, so some skill would be needed. This stance would roll in the effects of Beneath Notice and would offer a good balance between damage, power use and threat. This stance could also offer some nice buffs and cooldown reductions to crowd control skills to allow the Hunter to do more than just stand around rolling through an unchanging litany of skills, and focus more on helping manage the battle with the group.

Precision Stance: The high-mobility, medium-power, low-DPS kiting stance. The focus is on precision, just like on the tin, but Fleetness is rolled into this. There is no movement miss penalty in Precision stance. At all. You shoot, you scoot, and get focus pips the whole while. You can use all your combat skills, including induction skills, on the fly, making this the ultimate kiting stance. You also get an in-combat movement speed buff of +8%, basically half of Find the Path's non-combat buff. The tradeoff for all this mobility is the lowest DPS of all the stances, but considering the fact that you can literally fight non-stop, stay on the run, outrun most mobs in combat and never need to pause to take a breather, you can afford to sacrifice some of your nukage mojo.

We all have our own ideas of what would be best, and they will naturally differ. But my dream for the class is to see the stances offer these playstyle options, reduce the number of button-clicky gimmick skills by incorporating their benefits into the stances themselves and let me concentrate on what I love most: the pew-pew.

YMMV, and I'll keep dreaming.

This is what i think what we are looking for, a simple fix that gives us three choices that each fit a different play style. If only we could get something like this in update 7. Giving us these better and more focused choices would help people change depending on what they wanted to do and if they were in PvP or PvE. I mean compare strength stance to fervor stance or warspeech and you will see the gap between them. Also we could use a little more suvivability, because a dead hunter will do much much less dps then a mini, burg or champ, these classes do a decent amount of damage in comparison while the hunter is alive not alone dead.

For you idea +rep.

Details, Details

Originally Posted by Valmarill

This is excellent. However, Precision stance should not be the lowest DPS. Precision to me, means hitting critical areas more often with "precise", definitive attacks. Endurance should be the lowest of the DPS outputs for obvious reasons (slow measured and sustained attack). that said, It should not out DPS Strength but have the potential for devastating critical hits when used correctly.

I had to balance between being concise and being way too long-winded, so I wasn't too clear about this and several other points.

The Precision Philosophy

The reason Precision would have to have lowest DPS would be to balance against the inherent advantage of being able to kite without penalty and miss the least of all the stances. As it is, adding a run buff during combat might itself be too much, since with enhanced Barbed Arrow slows a melee mob probably would never get a hit on the Hunter.

Using this stance, a solo Hunter would be able to run around on the landscape and wreak havoc without ever breaking stride. Just run and shoot without a care in the world and kite mobs without taking hardly any damage (except from ranged mobs, who could also be kited outside their 30m limit). That capability adds effective DPS when we consider not needing to prepare, such having to stop and gather focus, is required.

It also amounts to a de facto increase in survivability against tougher mobs, allowing a Hunter to wear down melee elites with relative ease, if not very quickly. With its threat profile, this stance would be viable for either soloing or grouping, and would be a good choice in situations where survivability might be an issue, such as lots of adds and "trash duty". A Precision Hunter would be able to dance around picking things off while the rest of the group focused on the bosses, for example.

In the Moors, a stance like this would be a big advantage against melee mobs, and might be too powerful even with reduced DPS. Everyone other than Blackarrows would probably hate this stance the most.

What I meant by "just like on the tin" is that Precision stance shots would rarely miss, even standing still. You might also get B/P/E bonuses via a finesse buff from the stance to carry the idea forward, but the damage per shot would be the lowest of the stances. So you would be precise, but prissy, as it were. In-theme, we could think of it as having a light, delicate touch to the bow, substituting a strong pull for a more accurate one.

The Endurance Philosophy

As for Endurance, the reason for putting it in the middle DPS slot is to make it a stance Hunters would actually use. As things stand, it's common for Hunters to go with Precision or even Strength stance when grouping and just handle power and threat manually. In order for Endurance to be viable, it must offer a clear advantage in groups. Giving up too much DPS for that will mean Hunters won't use the stance.

Perks for Endurance, aside from power and threat, could also include improvements to CC skills and greater accuracy than Strength stance. It might also offer bonuses for "finisher" skills, like Merciful Shot and perhaps Burn Hot, that would come in handy as a boss's morale gets low and everyone usually pours on the heat.

Altogether, the idea is to genuinely make Endurance THE best stance for grouping. If the whole package is a win versus Strength stance, Hunters will use it.

The Strength Philosophy

As for Strength stance, it would be the least precise of the stances, contributing variability to damage output and the skill rotation. It would be the crit king, offering nice spike damage. Overall, it should be the clear DPS winner, but not be a stance where no strategy is required.

Various skills could be enhanced to offer damage bonuses, especially critical damage, that would encourage the Strength Hunter to use them under specific circumstances and mix things up. Strength would also lend itself to a critical buff mechanic like we see with Burglars and Rune-Keepers, with certain skills that might otherwise be neglected having a chance to apply the buff.

In all cases, however, the price for Strength stance is too much threat to rely on it for groups that don't have a god-like tank, and heavy power use. It would be a more solo-oriented stance, where a Hunter just wants to walk around wasting mobs, and generally a poor choice for groups compared to the other stances (though it might be a good choice for "trash duty" in tight spaces where kiting is impractical, as mentioned above).

Anyway, I'm droning on more than I should, but hopefully that adds a little more detail to what I'm suggesting, and some of the thinking behind it.

My main point is that each stance should offer clear advantages to the Hunter under different circumstances, and that each is guided by a clear philosophy that drives its playstyle.

Precision should be in he middle of the dps scale, but with a lower range. I mean with mobility and such bust its called precision because you are closer to your enemy thus more precise. This would be similar to the blackarrow. Inductions would be lower than strenght, qs usable on the move with a 3s cooldown.

Then what was said about strenght top tier.

So in terms of damage: strenght > precision > endurace

Mobility: precision > endurance > strenght

Conservation/survivabiliy: endurance > strenght > precision
*strenght > precision because in s:s you should be more durable than a kiting tissue paper. That's why it is called strenght stance!

Thanks.

Alerting The Fleet

I've been trying not to go on too long, lest I glaze over too many eyes, but it occurs to me that having someone running around being more accurate doesn't make a lot of practical sense. It amounts to a subconscious desire for a good kiting stance on my part, but doesn't really jibe with "precision".

So perhaps a better approach would be to retire the much-maligned Endurance stance, replace it with Precision stance and create new dedicated full-time Fleetness stance that best reflects what true on-the-run bowmanship would be.

Precision Stance

This replaces Endurance as the mid-DPS, low-threat, low-power group-oriented stance. Emphasis is on making shots hit, as before, with less damage-per-shot than Strength, but still good DPS overall. As with my Endurance concept above, there could be buffs for crowd control and other goodies grouped Hunters will want.

Precision emphasizes hitting more often, but not hitting as hard as Strength stance. It still hits hard, though, and has everything a grouped Hunter would want.

Fleetness Stance

This new stance will offer the same sorts of benefits my Precision concept offered in my previous posts, but with the lowest accuracy of the stances instead, and still the lowest DPS. Its big attraction is that it offers excellent survivability compared to the other stances, and allows the Hunter to forgo crowd control and concerns about focus. It's the "run and gun" stance, and is geared entirely around high mobility.

It occurs to me that "lowest DPS" may seem like "low DPS", but that's not what I mean. Hunters rule singe-target DPS and rightly so. Attuned RKs offer good competition, but they do need to be attuned, where Hunters start off at full-blast and stay that way. A Fleetness Hunter wouldn't out-DPS an RK or Champion, but would still be in the upper range of DPS among the classes.

I think I like this triad best of the ideas so far, but as always, Your Mileage May Vary, and its fun to bounce ideas around and see what shakes out.

Originally Posted by deaddove

@''Creep''

who me?

I'm also sure that regardless of whatever class, you are bound to find both good and bad players.

Absolutely

By the way, how archers/hunters work in session play do not represent our class whatsoever.

Who said anything about session play? If youre referring to the Moors, most of the QQ on these boards stems from that, no?

Please play our class if you are to have any further comments.

I do play "your" class

Thank you.
~A Hunter with over 4,000 hours logged onto the single character.



4K hours? Cookie?

_______

.....................

Rid, how many hunters on BW do you think could beat you on your WL in 1v1s. I know you're good, I've fought you. And, do you have audacity 7? I'm just wondering because I think it highlights the problems we see in the Moors. And that's where hunters really find their problems. PvE hunters are fine. We can stand there and plink and plunk. It is easymode PvE. But after playing my warg the other night, its like a drug its so easy. I see a hunter and salivate. Rid, if you 1v1ed yourself on your WL/hnt 10 times, what would the outcome be?


But as far as the Moors go:

Creeps get riled up because any ho-hum 3 day old freep can rock them as hard as anyone else. There really isn't any benefit to investing the time to get high ranked on a freep except for personal enjoyment. Its a whole different story on creepside. Ranking up is required to become competitive. Creepside has idk, say 25-50% competitive toons at any time, while freepside has 90% competitive toons (gotta count the level 61's and freeps so bad they get 2 or 3 shot). That's the problem. Even when outnumbering the freeps, they still might not be outnumbering them with competitive toons. Until freepside DPS in the Moors is reduced and scaled by rank, it will be the same old story.



Unfortunately for hunters, we really have no sustainable mobile DPS. Sure, few pen shot spam to start fights, but after that, inductions are our bane. Even with Resolute Aim, we still have to stand still during inductions, and immobile targets are easy to DPS and get position on. That is the real problem for hunters.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Rid, how many hunters on BW do you think could beat you on your WL in 1v1s. I know you're good, I've fought you. And, do you have audacity 7? I'm just wondering because I think it highlights the problems we see in the Moors. And that's where hunters really find their problems. PvE hunters are fine. We can stand there and plink and plunk. It is easymode PvE. But after playing my warg the other night, its like a drug its so easy. I see a hunter and salivate. Rid, if you 1v1ed yourself on your WL/hnt 10 times, what would the outcome be?



I have Audacity 7. As far as 1v1's i guess it depends. If i use everything available to my WL (heals.cds,brand,banners) i would say not many. I think my Hunter could beat my WL in a 1v1 but probably not very many times out of 10.




Unfortunately for hunters, we really have no sustainable mobile DPS. Sure, few pen shot spam to start fights, but after that, inductions are our bane. Even with Resolute Aim, we still have to stand still during inductions, and immobile targets are easy to DPS and get position on. That is the real problem for hunters.


Well, for most Hunters this is definitely a hard thing to over come. It always has been. Most just do not turn well in fights. Hunters that master this though and have the end game gear and weapons can really light an opponent up . Knowing how to move with your opponent and snap turn if he gets behind you is pretty important to be able to do .


Hunter is and always has been a tough class to master in the Moors. No doubt about it. I feel kinda bad for some Hunters out there that just arent prepared for a thinking opponent that understands how to exploit their inability to turn well and get induction skills off.


Definitely a steep learning curve for this class in regards to Moors play, especially 1v1's.

.............

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Creep goggles because of what? I dont like facerolling? Apparently you do though since youve decided to rank up a Champ.....


I dont have a Hunter, I get all my info from Lotro-Wiki about every class except Warleader. Its quite the database...

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

I do play "your" class

So, in the last week you have acquired a hunter toon... How... impressive?
Naturally, your earlier posts must have been meant as nothing but insulting sarcasm...
Perhaps you could provide an easy way of clearing up your credibility: What is your hunters name?

Forums (like most text-only communication methods) lack a certain emotional depth required to properly interpret sarcasm, especially when the most believable interpretation is to simply take your words at face value. Now, if I were to claim to not play a hunter it would be quite clear sarcasm, due to the hunter in my sig. I claim to play a guard? Simply verify on my profile.
Someone claiming to not play a hunter one week and then claiming TO play one the next? With a R12 WL in the siggy and no profile linked toons?

Originally Posted by LOTRO Community Guidelines

While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:
...
Posting or commenting with the intent of provoking ("trolling") another user or users
...

See?
Hunter name: sarcasm not troll
No Hunter name: troll not sarcasm

Originally Posted by Strikerin

So, in the last week you have acquired a hunter toon... How... impressive?
Naturally, your earlier posts must have been meant as nothing but insulting sarcasm...
Perhaps you could provide an easy way of clearing up your credibility: What is your hunters name?

Forums (like most text-only communication methods) lack a certain emotional depth required to properly interpret sarcasm, especially when the most believable interpretation is to simply take your words at face value. Now, if I were to claim to not play a hunter it would be quite clear sarcasm, due to the hunter in my sig. I claim to play a guard? Simply verify on my profile.
Someone claiming to not play a hunter one week and then claiming TO play one the next? With a R12 WL in the siggy and no profile linked toons?

See?
Hunter name: sarcasm not troll
No Hunter name: troll not sarcasm

I know he's got a hunter. He can disclose the name & server if he so chooses, but take me at my word. Took me a while to trace back to how and where I knew him from. Doesn't mean he is right or wrong, just that I can vouch that he's got a hnt.



@Rid - good points. I've never really been one to buy into this "Steep Learning Curve" argument. A class is a class. Are there very few solid hntr 1v1ers? Yea definitely. The class is not a beast-mode 1v1er. I guess my argument is: if these good 1v1ers were on another class, say a champ or minstrel, would they ever lose? If they can win with a hunter, they've gotta be pretty solid players. I'd bet they just wreck with other, OP classes.

Basing a class off the top 5% seems to happen too often. I think its especially true with hunters. I'd be willing to bet that a large majority of the average hunters are on alts or a creep lately. I even figured I'd try out the warg the other night. Even with r1 audacity it was like a drug-induced high.... everything was so easy to kill minus minstrels.

But, its how it is for now. Can't do much but go forward or roll an alt.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

@Rid - good points. I've never really been one to buy into this "Steep Learning Curve" argument. A class is a class. Are there very few solid hntr 1v1ers? Yea definitely. The class is not a beast-mode 1v1er. I guess my argument is: if these good 1v1ers were on another class, say a champ or minstrel, would they ever lose? If they can win with a hunter, they've gotta be pretty solid players. I'd bet they just wreck with other, OP classes.

Basing a class off the top 5% seems to happen too often. I think its especially true with hunters. I'd be willing to bet that a large majority of the average hunters are on alts or a creep lately. I even figured I'd try out the warg the other night. Even with r1 audacity it was like a drug-induced high.... everything was so easy to kill minus minstrels.

But, its how it is for now. Can't do much but go forward or roll an alt.

Im sure what you say about these elite Hunters is correct. Good players are good players regardlesss of class in the same way that good athletes can excel at multiple sports.



What to do to balance the class out for the other 95%......

I really dont have any concrete answers but i really dont want to see another facecroll class out in the Moors, thats for sure. When Moria bk 6 was released i just couldnt play my Hunter in the Moors much because of the ability to actually kill a Creep with "Swiftbow". Id rather not see anything like that again.


There have been some reasonable suggestions on these boards to give the class a little more survivability, etc. and there's also been some rather ridiculous ones. Maybe the Devs will sort it all out. Its also possible that they feel the class is WAI and of course that means more angst for many Hunters.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Maybe the Devs will sort it all out. Its also possible that they feel the class is WAI and of course that means more angst for many Hunters.

If the devs feel that the average hunter should be uncompetitive then I guess. I bet it will just cause more champs and minstrels rather than making hunters upset. People generally play to have fun. Hunter really isn't alot of fun atm. There's a reason why hunter numbers on the BAoS daily stat site have decreased dramatically. They're either on wargs, BA's, minstrels, or champs.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

If the devs feel that the average hunter should be uncompetitive then I guess. I bet it will just cause more champs and minstrels rather than making hunters upset. People generally play to have fun. Hunter really isn't alot of fun atm. There's a reason why hunter numbers on the BAoS daily stat site have decreased dramatically. They're either on wargs, BA's, minstrels, or champs.

Well, i think the problem is that the Devs are really only concerned with how the class functions from a pve perspective for the most part and as you have stated it works pretty well. When it comes to PvMP and PvE design in this game, the left hand just isnt aware of what the right hand is doing most of the time, so to speak.

Personally, I feel the OP goes a bit too far with the changes proposed. I play a Hunter and it is one of the best leveling and PvE experiences I've had, of all the classes I've played. Hunter is also one of the 3 Freep classes I play in PvMP, and quite truthfully, I really don't see a problem with it there, either (although admittedly, I have not played my Hunter in the Ettenmoors in some months now). Sure, you have inductions and poor movement along with no real escape skills, but in group situations or RvR, Hunters are absolutely the best for blowing up creeps, even post-Audacity. Sure, 1v1s on a Hunter are painful if you're jumped, but you have the ability to stealth and wait for your moment to jump others, too.

I agree with others in this thread who think that the Hunter class really doesn't need a complete revamp, but rather a good polishing to fix some bugs and smooth out a few issues. It certainly doesn't need the type of drastic overhaul that Minstrels received in ROI. Nor do I believe that Hunters should be able to range tank things as they have done in the past -- we already have 2 main tank classes and 2 other classes that can tank in a pinch. Hunters don't need, nor should they have, the type of damage reduction proposed by the original poster because it would imbalance the class versus other classes way too much.

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

Personally, I feel the OP goes a bit too far with the changes proposed. I play a Hunter and it is one of the best leveling and PvE experiences I've had, of all the classes I've played. Hunter is also one of the 3 Freep classes I play in PvMP, and quite truthfully, I really don't see a problem with it there, either (although admittedly, I have not played my Hunter in the Ettenmoors in some months now). Sure, you have inductions and poor movement along with no real escape skills, but in group situations or RvR, Hunters are absolutely the best for blowing up creeps, even post-Audacity. Sure, 1v1s on a Hunter are painful if you're jumped, but you have the ability to stealth and wait for your moment to jump others, too.

I agree with others in this thread who think that the Hunter class really doesn't need a complete revamp, but rather a good polishing to fix some bugs and smooth out a few issues. It certainly doesn't need the type of drastic overhaul that Minstrels received in ROI. Nor do I believe that Hunters should be able to range tank things as they have done in the past -- we already have 2 main tank classes and 2 other classes that can tank in a pinch. Hunters don't need, nor should they have, the type of damage reduction proposed by the original poster because it would imbalance the class versus other classes way too much.

just curious why you havent played your hunter there in months if you think all is great? I see you have a mini is that what your playing in the moors?

There is a difference between how the class performs leveling from 1-75 and how it performs at 75.

I think we are amazing at leveling (but then again, most classes are). Where we have problems is after we get to 75. At that point, we really don't solo landscape stuff too often - we raid and group. We need threat management to be able to utilize all our skills. Otherwise, we end up spending most raids trying not to do too much damage, which is kind of lame for a dps class. How often are champs worried about self-gimping their dps?

Originally Posted by therealwhizzy

just curious why you havent played your hunter there in months if you think all is great? I see you have a mini is that what your playing in the moors?

Yup, I've mostly been playing my Minstrel and my Weaver in PvMP recently, with a dash of underleveled Captain to spice it up. I took my Hunter out at the beginning of ROI while still level 65 to blow up Freavers for awhile, but I haven't done much with her since leveling. My Hunter is also the toon I solo with the most (camo-ganking style of play, mostly), and I've been mostly wanting to group. When I do feel like soloing, I've been getting on my Weaver (burrow-ganking style of play, which is remarkably similar to how I play my Hunter in PvP and nothing at all like I play my healers, lol).

Also, I'm not denying that Hunters could use some love. But I do believe that the original poster went too far in an unneeded direction. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm just expressing mine.

may i suggest:





yellow line: ranged tank+ melee viability




wardens got our 40m range and dps. cant we have some of their tanking role and survival?
if they added this i would be happy

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

Yup, I've mostly been playing my Minstrel and my Weaver in PvMP recently, with a dash of underleveled Captain to spice it up. I took my Hunter out at the beginning of ROI while still level 65 to blow up Freavers for awhile, but I haven't done much with her since leveling. My Hunter is also the toon I solo with the most (camo-ganking style of play, mostly), and I've been mostly wanting to group. When I do feel like soloing, I've been getting on my Weaver (burrow-ganking style of play, which is remarkably similar to how I play my Hunter in PvP and nothing at all like I play my healers, lol).

Also, I'm not denying that Hunters could use some love. But I do believe that the original poster went too far in an unneeded direction. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm just expressing mine.

Seeing you have a choice why mini over hunter? i mean its been months as you say so it would seem you like the mini alot more than the hunter...

Camo ganking is not really a playstyle i want to adopt I find it boring...

Take a break from soloing on yur mini an weaver go solo on your hunter ( no camo ganking ) and come back with some honest feedback on your results thanks.

and low rank creeps dont really count how bout at least rank 5...

Originally Posted by Lendas

may i suggest:

yellow line: ranged tank+ melee viability

wardens got our 40m range and dps. cant we have some of their tanking role and survival?
if they added this i would be happy

Hunters were never designed to be tanks; so turning a dps class into a tank would not be favourable. However, your point that we need to have more melee viability is absolutely correct. So in term, from the numerous suggestions to revamp the trapper line I suggest it becomes a survival/hunting trait line.

Originally Posted by zalladi

Hunters were never designed to be tanks; so turning a dps class into a tank would not be favourable. However, your point that we need to have more melee viability is absolutely correct. So in term, from the numerous suggestions to revamp the trapper line I suggest it becomes a survival/hunting trait line.

Im pretty sure wardens were never designed to fight at 40m with powerful ranged gambits and AOE group threat reduction to boot. they were never supposed to be a ranged DPS class. if you look at tank classes, they all have dps lines, why not give squishies a tank line?

lets face it: the ideology for "well you have 40m range advantage so you got to be squishy" is dead with the new warden.

Id like a role other than ranged dps. warden can stance-dance to be anything they want to be. one second your hurling good ranged dps at 40m and the next your DPSing single target in melee and the next your going turtle and healing yourself. not to say that wardens are always good at everything all the time, but they can tergiversate their roles and be good in one while having the others as fall-back.

Hunters having a ranged tank role will make them unique since warden at range has mostly anti-threat gambits. and having more melee ability in this ranged tank traitline will make hunters more flexible in battle situations, giving the ability to fight at 40m and then entering in melee combat.


NOTE: A TANK LINE FOR SQUISHES WILL SLOW DOWN MOORS COMBAT!!!! THIS IS HIGHLY DESIRED BY CREEPS AND FREEPS!

There's a real issue with giving hunters a tanking line. Tanks have off-dps, meaning they cannot compete with a true dpser. Wardens' assailment is more of a support line than dps -- recklessness is their main dps line, but their power pool will not last long unless they spam DbtD, which has been slightly nerfed. The point being, tank dpsers are much, much < true dps classes. And we already have off-tank classes. That was given to champ and captain, so if you picked hunter for that role, I'm sorry, you just didn't read the other class descriptions.