Thread: Why Wardens can't AoE Threat (not a question, this is an explanation)

Hello my tanky friends, I'm basically an RK but also have a 2nd char Warden, someone already knows me, someone else not.

I've opened this post to share a couple of effective thoughts I'm encountering both when tanking on my WRD and when leading Raids with my RK.

Thesis
The Warden can't do AoE Threat

Explanation
Every Gambit the Warden has to do AoE Threat also damages the enemies.

So what?
You can't do effective CC. A lot of times it happens that when I say "LM CC this, BRG CC this other, GRD take these mobs, WRD take these others" the WRD awakes everyone. For a War-Cry or a preparred EoB... It doesn't matter. The GRD just shouts and do direct AoE Threat without awaken anyone.
This is why Wardens can't truly do AoE Threat.

Details
What follows is the list of gambits a WRD have to generate AoE Threat
- War-Cry(3-2), does AoE Threat, does little damage
- Goad (3-3), Frontal AoE Threat, does damage
- Exhultation of Battle (3-1-2-3-2), does AoE threat, does Morale Leech
- Aggression (2-3-1-2), does AoE Threat only if the group has some aggro to share (I still didn't get if it actually steals by lowering your group one and add it too you or just add a percentage to you while leaving the group one the same)
- Maddening Strike Gambit Line (2-3-2+) does AoE Threat only if the group has some aggro to share, gives defence bonuses (same problem with aggression on how it truly works)
- Defiant Challenge (Legendary Skill) - Forced AoE Threat, no damage, big cooldown

Other gambits do Single Target aggro, generally dealing damage too.

Additional issues I've experienced
2 times: died on Bukot (ToO Shadow Boss), got rezzed, tried to regain aggro with Aggression post U6, totally useless even with !18! Aggressions used in sequence, that's why I truly don't get how aggro leech effectively works. (I won't compare it to a GRD, cause it's simply useless)
I generally don't use bugs so I didn't spam a couple of EoBs to recover aggro.

Possible solutions
- Remove damage component from War-Cry
- Make Brink of Victory Gambit Line (3-2-3+) an AoE Threat like War-Cry is, and remove damage component
- Improve Aggression so it actually steals a good amount of aggro from the members of the fellowship but ONLY on one target, the one you use Aggression to

Another possibile solution
Hire me, you have my CV

What would happen with the proposed solutions?
- Aggression becomes a useful single target skill while leaving Maddening Strike Gambit line the one you'd use to leech AoE Aggro. Actually Aggression is fully useless too cause (based on tooltip description) it does the same aggro as Dance of War but the latter also gives defensive buffs with the same number of gambit builders
- Brink of Victory gambit line gains a sense, actually it is a copy of the Piercing Strike gambit line except for the type of damge it does
- Brink of Victory gambit line becomes what the Wardens need to actually tank in Raids and Istances that need both CC and AoE Aggro


Thanks for reading, share your opinion

Bye,
Arianneth, RK
Nevril, WRD


P.S.
It's just me, or someone else also noticed that with every patch introduced the Warden gets boosted in what lacks and nerfed in what it didn't lack cause of the previous patch?

You've got the answer right there--AoE threat leeches are the wardens way of pulling threat without doing damage. Wardens are king of AoE threat. They have a super threat small radius gambit--EoB, a weak threat directional gambit--Goad, and 4 threat transfers gambits. Basically your whole thesis is "EoB does damage, therefore wardens can't AoE threat." Here's the solution to your quandry:

EoB - Move away from the CC mobs. At least 6m.
Goad - Face away from the CC mobs, 180 degrees.
War Cry - Don't use with CC mobs
Aggression - Threat Xfer, CC friendly
Maddening Strike - Threat Xfer, CC friendly
Dance of War - Threat Xfer, CC friendly
Conviction - Threat Xfer, CC friendly

All other threat skills are single target, so are CC friendly.

--Harper

Originally Posted by Harperelle

EoB - Move away from the CC mobs. At least 6m.
Goad - Face away from the CC mobs, 180 degrees.
War Cry - Don't use with CC mobs

This is a good way to avoid the problem, it's not a solution to the problem.
This is an issue that occurs exactly when starting a fight. The mob comes to you if you are the first entering, they all converge to a single person but if someone hits one of them they move again, or if an RK has casted a stone they'll go to the stone, so the Warden has to run to the one who has the aggro, be sure everything but CCed is in EoB range, use it.
GRDs don't need anything of this. They simply go in the middle of all mobs, CCed too, hit an AoE Threat and no one awakes.
As all my posts this is not a comparing one, saying the WRDs sucks (I love WRDs!) the GRDs rule, every class has its issues, I'm trying just to focus them and propose solutions to make the game fair for everyone.

Originally Posted by Harperelle

Aggression - Threat Xfer, CC friendly
Maddening Strike - Threat Xfer, CC friendly
Dance of War - Threat Xfer, CC friendly
Conviction - Threat Xfer, CC friendly

Since this is an issue that occurs at start, these gambits are useless, but I have nothing against them except for what I've already said about Aggression post U6

Originally Posted by Nevril

Since this is an issue that occurs at start, these gambits are useless, but I have nothing against them except for what I've already said about Aggression post U6

No. We've been getting aggro on CC mobs since day 1 using threat transfers, long before we even had Aggression. Most CC lasts for 30 seconds, just saying...

Originally Posted by horus418

No. We've been getting aggro on CC mobs since day 1 using threat transfers, long before we even had Aggression. Most CC lasts for 30 seconds, just saying...

Just tried:
LM mezz a Warg, Convinction near it. No DPS done, neither by me or the LM. Wait for the mob to wake up...
Warg on the LM. LM got an hit, then got an heal from Convinction, aggro on me for the amount of the heal.

So there was no/too low aggro transfer, just the heal.


Another scenario that can happen
Someone wakes the mob, not the WRD, the mob goes near the WRD for somewhat reason, and the WRD in that time was using, for example, EoB. The WRD runs away, the LM remezz the mob, but the DoT awakes him again.
This situation compared to a GRD:
The GRD was using an AoE damage attack. The LM mezzes the mob, the GRD runs away, no DoT that awakes the mob again.

Originally Posted by Nevril

Just tried:
LM mezz a Warg, Convinction near it. No DPS done, neither by me or the LM. Wait for the mob to wake up...
Warg on the LM. LM got an hit, then got an heal from Convinction, aggro on me for the amount of the heal.

So there was no/too low aggro transfer, just the heal.


Another scenario that can happen
Someone wakes the mob, not the WRD, the mob goes near the WRD for somewhat reason, and the WRD in that time was using, for example, EoB. The WRD runs away, the LM remezz the mob, but the DoT awakes him again.
This situation compared to a GRD:
The GRD was using an AoE damage attack. The LM mezzes the mob, the GRD runs away, no DoT that awakes the mob again.

Nobody is saying that a single conviction is supposed to get the mob off. I've been doing these type of pulls since DN was on level, so unless something has changed, popping a few transfers while a mob is CC'd has always worked for me and others. I'm not having any issues in Orthanc, so I don't know what to tell you.

Originally Posted by horus418

Nobody is saying that a single conviction is supposed to get the mob off. I've been doing these type of pulls since DN was on level, so unless something has changed, popping a few transfers while a mob is CC'd has always worked for me and others. I'm not having any issues in Orthanc, so I don't know what to tell you.

Ok, thanks for sharing your opinion.
Anyway what I'm trying to highlight is an issue that can happen, you solve it this way, but can you honestly say WRD are equals to GRD in reacting to these kind of scenarios?

Don't tell me they are different classes, I know (WRD != GRD)=true.
Just compare the effectiveness and trickiness of both methods.

Also maybe try doing more as cc duration is about to expire? Initially CCer threat is going to be almost nothing and therefore almost nothing to steal, but during that cc time maybe they heal or share power and build more, outpacing whatever conviction heal was building for you. After ~15-20ish seconds, throw a conviction, maybe BM to double throw an aggression. It was nerfed but I still like it for its speed.

Originally Posted by Beornded

Also maybe try doing more as cc duration is about to expire? Initially CCer threat is going to be almost nothing and therefore almost nothing to steal, but during that cc time maybe they heal or share power and build more, outpacing whatever conviction heal was building for you. After ~15-20ish seconds, throw a conviction, maybe BM to double throw an aggression. It was nerfed but I still like it for its speed.

This is a good way to gain the aggro on the CCed mob. But you can also throw a Spear of Virtue if you want the aggro on you, cause generally if the mob is sleeping you don't really care who has the aggro.
The issue I'm trying to highlight is what happen if a mob is awaken by one of WRDs AoE Threats. Especially at the start of a fight when you generally know where the mobs will run, but... "generally".
A Rune-Stone, a previous heal over time, a Rain of Thorn and whatever may change where they run and you may need to use a War-Cry to aggro them instead of an EoB or a Goad.

Originally Posted by Nevril

Ok, thanks for sharing your opinion.
Anyway what I'm trying to highlight is an issue that can happen, you solve it this way, but can you honestly say WRD are equals to GRD in reacting to these kind of scenarios?

Don't tell me they are different classes, I know (WRD != GRD)=true.
Just compare the effectiveness and trickiness of both methods.

This has nothing to do with guards and wardens being equal, nor does it have to do with opinion. The point is, we can get aggro on CC mobs, you saying we can't is just plain false. Adapt or don't, it's up to you to fail.

Originally Posted by horus418

This has nothing to do with guards and wardens being equal, nor does it have to do with opinion. The point is, we can get aggro on CC mobs, you saying we can't is just plain false. Adapt or don't, it's up to you to fail.

We can get aggro on CCd mobs like Horus says. Our way in comparison to the guards way however is so impractical and so unforgiving that its verging pathetic. Its like saying i can play lotro on my netbook. Its possible but very impractical when compared to playing lotro on my gaming tower.

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

We can get aggro on CCd mobs like Horus says. Our way in comparison to the guards way however is so impractical and so unforgiving that its verging pathetic. Its like saying i can play lotro on my netbook. Its possible but very impractical when compared to playing lotro on my gaming tower.

^^^ This.. and.. its kinda sad how guards can get aggro without damage while all warden skills are damaging AE or dependant on the groups, and only your groups, threat level.

OP.. wish I could say your last comment was a revelation.

I just fail to see what the problem is here. Have the cc open the pull, all non cc'd mobs run to the group where the warden picks them up with aoe (EoB, WC, Goad). Mezzers keep their targets locked down while dps brings down mobs teh warden is tanking. After those mobs are down warden goes and picks up mezzed target with high threat skill such as EoB.

I tend to partially agree with the OP but taking the explanations into account by other posters I can see how to get around the issue. However how large exactly is a 6m radius when using EOB, what about small enclosed spaces like certain rooms in Orthanc wings and the tiny workable area on top of the tower.

What the game lacks are useful tactical indicators like a simple radius overlay etc. Yes the L33T will say Adapt or Fail or L2P Noob but with that kind of attitude the class and the game in the long run will be nothing but a pile of steaming horse poo. Why not for a change actually consider the merits of what people are suggesting without shooting everything down in flames from post #2 onwards.

If not then all the die-hard wadens can gladly have Lotro while the rest of us move on to more interesting things.

Originally Posted by Cebra

I tend to partially agree with the OP but taking the explanations into account by other posters I can see how to get around the issue. However how large exactly is a 6m radius when using EOB, what about small enclosed spaces like certain rooms in Orthanc wings and the tiny workable area on top of the tower.

What the game lacks are useful tactical indicators like a simple radius overlay etc. Yes the L33T will say Adapt or Fail or L2P Noob but with that kind of attitude the class and the game in the long run will be nothing but a pile of steaming horse poo. Why not for a change actually consider the merits of what people are suggesting without shooting everything down in flames from post #2 onwards.

If not then all the die-hard wadens can gladly have Lotro while the rest of us move on to more interesting things.

How about adapt or roll a guard? This isn't directed at you (or any other poster in particular) but what the people in support of the OP are asking for, is warden skills that work like guard ones. As things stand, the two classes are quite different, and can achieve the same things (tanking all content). Each has its own strengths, weaknesses, and playstyle.

I don't agree with everything that has happened with the U6 warden changes, but the the fact remains that wardens are POWERFUL now, and in the right hands at least as good if not better for many tanking situations than guards (my opinion of course). In a 6-man or Raid environment a warden should have no problems getting aggro on CCed mobs without breaking mezzes, and without completely gimping themselves in terms of threat gen and survivability, its just harder than it is with a guard. This is ONE scenario where MAYBE a guard is better off than a warden, but it is 100% doable with a warden as well.

Should we make a list of things a warden can do better than a guard and post in the guard forum about why guards need changes to make them able to do those things as well as wardens can?

I think guardians can't do AOE Threat..
-less targets (or same but in price of survivality)
-less aggro (also need to block to execute a lot of their skills, that isntbest when kiting)
-less range.....

frist warden runn in, al mobs run too warden... the cc-ed mobs remain in their place... so why it isnt cc friendly? (oh wait cc is pulling?^^)

So plz STOPP TROLLING, and go back to rk forums!

Originally Posted by spelunker

This is ONE scenario where MAYBE a guard is better off than a warden, but it is 100% doable with a warden as well.

Umm the one scenario being all 4 wings of the Tower that I have seen? And most of OD besides that.. Oh and any other scenario in game where since the mezer is NOT PULLING, the mob runs tword the group instead of staying where it starts the fight? With CC, in the current state, with adaptive learning on crowd control, its pretty much unavoidable that the mobs will not be standing drooling near the group within 30 seconds of a pull.

SIGH.. roll a raiding LM and a warden and tell me about it.

Originally Posted by Leri927

I think guardians can't do AOE Threat..
-less targets (or same but in price of survivality)
-less aggro (also need to block to execute a lot of their skills, that isntbest when kiting)
-less range.....

frist warden runn in, al mobs run too warden... the cc-ed mobs remain in their place... so why it isnt cc friendly? (oh wait cc is pulling?^^)

So plz STOPP TROLLING, and go back to rk forums!

Lets see:

Wrong
Wrong
Wrong

so.. Wrong Sorry.

If you are counting threat transfers, dont forget that the transfer has a limited range of proximity of the group members also.

Ok so warden aggro skills have 10 target - guardians have less (or same with blue trait line and legacyes.. blue isnt the defensive traitline)->guardians have less aggro target, or need trait for aggro (=less defense)

Ok just chech out any guardian skill what is spammmable (ofc or any skill that is near to EOB)->guards have less aggro

Lesser range, have guardians any aggro skill with 25m range?? (NOT)

SO in AOE THREAT GENERATION we are better (of course that CAN (and not always) break cc... if played good dont break cc... and ofc cc-ed mbs dont take too much dmg, so ther our aggro leeches more than enough)

in surviving spike damage, or surviving a trash pull with 2x pledge guard are alot better now. but not in holding aggro. also they are better in swapping aggro, and precise aggro controlling (or that is easyer with guard)

So back to question have u played a lvl 75 warden? or just lm? (or played with any good warden not forum trolls XD)

I think many people are missing the OP's point or simply hanging on to the minutiae. Could have something to the with the Troll Bait title so can't blame 'em.

I don't think the OP meant that Wardens cannot aggro mobs while they are CC'ed. I think the issue is grabbing the designated targets AROUND those that are CC'ed.

Many of the trash pulls are messy and relying on CC mobs to stay in place is wishful thinking.

Anyways as a Warden that regularly runs t2 Orthanc i wouldn't mind if War Cry had no damage component in Determination. Saying that, I am still capable of doing my job. Its just a lot more work than it would be on a Guard. which is the OP's point. I think.

It isnt easy, but possible to not break cc

It is easy to hold aggro.

If cc not begin to rush in then no problem...
(When i tanking then was alaways this tactic: tank goes in frist, after him a half second the cc (but frist the tank) cc use his skills asap, mobs run to tank not cc, frist cc isnt fear so mobs remain in place, tank can get enough aggro until that time to hold the not cc ed, and with over time using the aggro leeches he/she can aggro the cc-ed ones to)
And i think those people allowed to pull who can survive what they have pulled, thats why not minstrels rk-s pulling who can die if every mob hit them only with one auto attack... that is why mostly i like to pull.. and before pull i tell in voice that i am go in so cc can come in very fast too. It is simple, isnt?

Originally Posted by Ravenstride

I don't think the OP meant that Wardens cannot aggro mobs while they are CC'ed. I think the issue is grabbing the designated targets AROUND those that are CC'ed.

Either way, the OP is still wrong. Granted, it's still harder for a warden to do, but as I stated before, we've been doing it since the class was created, in fact it's even easier now then ever.

@Leri927

It is simple. And that is what I tend to do. But you are talking about best-case scenario.

lets say you start off like that and everything is in place. 30s into the fight the LM's Blinding Flash resists and the troll starts running at me (conviction right?) it takes a second or two for the burg to stun it or the LM to use CttV and try another Blinding Flash.

In this time the Troll is standing next to me (lets assume successfully stunned now) and the Taskmaster we're killing spawns another set of cave-claws. Now what? I cant leach Cave Claw aggro because no one has any yet. I can't EoB or War Cry because of the CC troll next to me. I can Goad if I make sure that my back is to the Troll but Goad sucks. While im scrambling to do something about those Cave Claws the Champ Shing-Shings and reminds me what friends are for

So, with other group members that are "switched on" this scenario is fairly easy to deal with. It doesn't change the fact that as a Tank I don't have a reliable tool to deal with it.

Yes, in a perfect world I don't need to worry about CC'ed mobs being next to me. In reality, if it DOES happen then it leaves me and my group exposed.

yes.. but in real world cc-ers have a nice finesse so isnt offen have resists, and that is very good.

this can bereal problem if every 2nd or 3rd cc will resisted (but than not our cc breaking would the biggest problem) so i think these rare things arent too great problem - problem is when cc want to pull.

And i agreethat in trash pulls things go messy, near as skirnish raids, but with an organized (kin?)raid this doesnt happening often.




So.. after this talking first time i am happy coz finesse it is good thing

Originally Posted by Leri927

So.. after this talking first time i am happy coz finesse it is good thing

Finesse is evil! go away!

Originally Posted by Leri927

So plz STOPP TROLLING, and go back to rk forums!

Simply, LOL

Originally Posted by spelunker

Should we make a list of things a warden can do better than a guard and post in the guard forum about why guards need changes to make them able to do those things as well as wardens can?

Yes, this is the basis to make a game (and a software in general) better than it currently is: Finding issues, and solve them.
It doesn't matter if they are "rare" to happen, they can happen.
Cause even if it's rare that the bidirectional algorithm of the Stanford Core NLP generates a memory leak, it still will do and stops the developing of a good software that needs that POS-tagger library for days 'till you get what the problem is.

Someone got my opinion in the right way and, most of all, with the right mood. Someone else should take his hands in some cold water to calm down.
Again I'm not saying WRD sucks. I love it, and I love to play it. But this is the work of "balancing" things and improve the gaming experience. If you read my topic from this point of view maybe you can get what I'm saying, if not, please, at least do not insult anyone. I didn't.

Originally Posted by Nevril

Hello my tanky friends, I'm basically an RK but also have a 2nd char Warden, someone already knows me, someone else not.

I've opened this post to share a couple of effective thoughts I'm encountering both when tanking on my WRD and when leading Raids with my RK.

Thesis
The Warden can't do AoE Threat

Explanation
Every Gambit the Warden has to do AoE Threat also damages the enemies.

So what?
You can't do effective CC. A lot of times it happens that when I say "LM CC this, BRG CC this other, GRD take these mobs, WRD take these others" the WRD awakes everyone. For a War-Cry or a preparred EoB... It doesn't matter. The GRD just shouts and do direct AoE Threat without awaken anyone.
This is why Wardens can't truly do AoE Threat.

Details
What follows is the list of gambits a WRD have to generate AoE Threat
- War-Cry(3-2), does AoE Threat, does little damage
- Goad (3-3), Frontal AoE Threat, does damage
- Exhultation of Battle (3-1-2-3-2), does AoE threat, does Morale Leech
- Aggression (2-3-1-2), does AoE Threat only if the group has some aggro to share (I still didn't get if it actually steals by lowering your group one and add it too you or just add a percentage to you while leaving the group one the same)
- Maddening Strike Gambit Line (2-3-2+) does AoE Threat only if the group has some aggro to share, gives defence bonuses (same problem with aggression on how it truly works)
- Defiant Challenge (Legendary Skill) - Forced AoE Threat, no damage, big cooldown

Other gambits do Single Target aggro, generally dealing damage too.

Additional issues I've experienced
2 times: died on Bukot (ToO Shadow Boss), got rezzed, tried to regain aggro with Aggression post U6, totally useless even with !18! Aggressions used in sequence, that's why I truly don't get how aggro leech effectively works. (I won't compare it to a GRD, cause it's simply useless)
I generally don't use bugs so I didn't spam a couple of EoBs to recover aggro.

Possible solutions
- Remove damage component from War-Cry
- Make Brink of Victory Gambit Line (3-2-3+) an AoE Threat like War-Cry is, and remove damage component
- Improve Aggression so it actually steals a good amount of aggro from the members of the fellowship but ONLY on one target, the one you use Aggression to

Another possibile solution
Hire me, you have my CV

What would happen with the proposed solutions?
- Aggression becomes a useful single target skill while leaving Maddening Strike Gambit line the one you'd use to leech AoE Aggro. Actually Aggression is fully useless too cause (based on tooltip description) it does the same aggro as Dance of War but the latter also gives defensive buffs with the same number of gambit builders
- Brink of Victory gambit line gains a sense, actually it is a copy of the Piercing Strike gambit line except for the type of damge it does
- Brink of Victory gambit line becomes what the Wardens need to actually tank in Raids and Istances that need both CC and AoE Aggro


Thanks for reading, share your opinion

Bye,
Arianneth, RK
Nevril, WRD


P.S.
It's just me, or someone else also noticed that with every patch introduced the Warden gets boosted in what lacks and nerfed in what it didn't lack cause of the previous patch?

I agree with this. Our threat transfers do a poor job of gaining initial aggro when a fight is started with mobs being cc'd first or early in the fight. There isn't enough threat from the transfer - or possibly the cc was done by a member of the other fellowship, so we don't become the main aggro target while the mob is mez'd. Our AoE threat skills put dots on the mobs making CC impossible until the dots are gone. In instances where CC is paramount I feel constrained as to what gambits I can use fearing that I'm in range of the CC'd target and end up using more single target gambits. In instances like OD T2 (pre-RoI) and ToO T2 CC is used on almost every single pull and breaking it can be a wipe, so wardens are hindered in those environments - IMO. In an environment devoid of meaningful CC, wardens are kings. Largely that slots wardens into their current role, best tanks for content that is borderline trivial.

I always wanted the DoT removed from WC to make it our bread and butter (pre-U6) initial threat skill. If the DoTs were removed in determination...our threat would be pretty awesome in cc pulls. Its the reason I used to use DC often, gains threat - no DoT - CC friendly threat skill. The forced taunt and reflect were not the best reasons to slot DC. I don't even know how it works in its current incarnation.

My solution - Have two Wardens tanking (Guard, who needs'em?), and let the Wardens grab everything! (CC!? Who needs it?!).

Sorry, I'm not helping. Just feeling froggy.

-Vayguin Layonect

Originally Posted by Sapience

The following release notes are for the Bullroarer public test server only and may not reflect the final list of changes or updates included at release. Please be aware that everything here is subject to change. These notes are not final.

Warden

• War-cry now has an AOE Threat effect when in determination stance.
• Fixed an issue where the potent version of War-cry was not picking up the added threat bonus that it was supposed to be applying to targets.
• Battle-preparation will now be dispelled upon using any gambit.
• Boar's rush no longer attempts to apply the daze effect in all stances when critical strikes apply.
• Adroit Manoeuvre and Reversal's ranged version will now load into Battle Memory when the warden is potent.
• The legacy Shield Gambit Buff Duration Legacy now correctly modifies all shield associated buffs.
• The Warden trait Terrible Visage will now correctly apply its +5% damage bonus to Fist gambit Damage over Time effects while in Assailment and Recklessness stances.
• All Warden physical bleeds will now use the damage type of the weapon that inflicted them.
• The Warden trait Terrible Visage will no longer increase the threat from Exultation of Battle to absurd levels.
• Gambit Default can now be used at range.
• Deadly Insult now gives +10% weapon damage to Fist Gambits
• Wardens using conviction in a group together will no longer overwrite each other's fellowship healing effect. Instead, multiple wardens will each be able to apply their conviction effects to the fellowship. Each warden can only apply one effect to their fellowship at a time.

Don't get too comfortable with your current aggro levels because come update 6.1 trigger happy dps'rs are going to be giving you guys real issues.

If you've been relying on TV+EoB in Determination then you've only been setting yourself up for disaster.

If you have been able to establish and maintain aggro without TV+EoB in Determination then you should be in a pretty good position come the next update.

Just saying, prepare for the update so that it doesn't surprise you guys with the upcoming nerf hammer.

Originally Posted by Darlgon

Umm the one scenario being all 4 wings of the Tower that I have seen? And most of OD besides that.. Oh and any other scenario in game where since the mezer is NOT PULLING, the mob runs tword the group instead of staying where it starts the fight? With CC, in the current state, with adaptive learning on crowd control, its pretty much unavoidable that the mobs will not be standing drooling near the group within 30 seconds of a pull.

SIGH.. roll a raiding LM and a warden and tell me about it.

Don't have an LM, but I have a successful raiding (t2) guard and warden, and since U6 which one do you think our raidleader (and healers) asks me to bring when we're working on new wings?
The last time we were in Acid trash, if the guard that was co-tanking with me wasn't properly working aggro on the CCed mobs they were supposed to pick up, everything came to me as it came off CC. Its not magic, its understanding the class and adapting to the situation, rather than using the same strat and skill rotations no matter what.

Originally Posted by Nevril

Simply, LOL



Yes, this is the basis to make a game (and a software in general) better than it currently is: Finding issues, and solve them.
It doesn't matter if they are "rare" to happen, they can happen.
Cause even if it's rare that the bidirectional algorithm of the Stanford Core NLP generates a memory leak, it still will do and stops the developing of a good software that needs that POS-tagger library for days 'till you get what the problem is.

Someone got my opinion in the right way and, most of all, with the right mood. Someone else should take his hands in some cold water to calm down.
Again I'm not saying WRD sucks. I love it, and I love to play it. But this is the work of "balancing" things and improve the gaming experience. If you read my topic from this point of view maybe you can get what I'm saying, if not, please, at least do not insult anyone. I didn't.

First and foremost, I think i said right from the start I wasn't trying to be insulting. Second of all, we're talking about a computer game, not software development.

Maybe we'll have to leave it as a basic disagreement on game design, but:

Since when is it an issue that one class can do some specific scenario better than another? Isn't that the exact point of having multiple classes? Yeah, when played intelligently, my guard is probably better for aggroing CCed mobs (particularly specific ones, rather than all of them), but my warden is a better tank for zerging a mob that will last more than the duration of a guards forces. This is what separates classes from eachother and allows for multiple strategies in instances, I don't see your complaint as being any different than a hunter QQing that they can't AoE dps as well as a champ. Are you suggesting that its an issue if every class can't do everything as well as every other class?

Edit: made it look prettier

I often think of wardens vs. guards in the same terms as minstrels vs. runekeepers.

Guards are good at reacting to changing situations quickly, wardens need to plan ahead. Minstrels can change healing targets quickly as needed, RKs must ramp up.

Guards have numerous panic buttons, wardens need to be careful not to die. Minstrels have a bunch of panic buttons, RKs need to be careful not to die.

Guards can mitigate more damage, wardens avoid and heal more damage over time. Minstrels can put out more raw healing, RKs can prevent damage and put up HoTs. (Kind of reversed in this case...)

Guards open up certain skills based on stance and combat events, wardens always have all skills available. Minstrels open up certain skills based on stance and combat events (warspeech, free heal when call skills used) runekeepers have... attunement? Kind of breaks down here.

I could go on, but the examples start to get more and more contrived from here on. Suffice it to say, RKs and Minstrels are both good healers. But they heal differently and they excel in different areas. Same thing goes for Guards and Wardens. Guards can do this one particular encounter better (CC safe aggro in a tight space) but there are places that wardens can do something better (maintain aggro on 10 targets, kite without being in melee range).

So your original scenario was one heavily stacked towards guards, and didn't really acknowledge the warden strategies as viable. On top of that, your title was -extremely- irritating, since wardens #1 strength is AoE aggro.

But back to the original topic... how to hold aggro when new adds come and you've already got some nearby mezzes? I think the new Defiant Challenge is going to be our best friend in this case. Fairly long range (10m) short CD (2.5min with legacy) and a good buff (+40% mitigation). With the new Defiant Challenge, we may be posting a similar thread in the guard forums.

--Harper

I love all the blind defense that exists for the warden class.

It is pretty simple to see that in a pull where CC is required wardens aren't as viable for AoE threat. It is not impossible, but the way the aoe threat skills work makes it risky or handcuffs the warden to ST skills and threat leaches of mobs that have almost no threat built up on them.

If CC isn't present it is unmatched for gaining/building AoE threat.

Originally Posted by Mysterion

I love all the blind defense that exists for the warden class.

It is pretty simple to see that in a pull where CC is required wardens aren't as viable for AoE threat. It is not impossible, but the way the aoe threat skills work makes it risky or handcuffs the warden to ST skills and threat leaches of mobs that have almost no threat built up on them.

If CC isn't present it is unmatched for gaining/building AoE threat.

It isn't blind defense at all, it's just that the OP is 100% fallacy as is the title of the thread. Can't = not possible and you just said what I've basically said in stating that it is NOT impossible.

So, what is your point exactly here, because you've just proved the OP wrong yourself? Looks like you are blind also.

Originally Posted by horus418

It isn't blind defense at all, it's just that the OP is 100% fallacy as is the title of the thread. Can't = not possible and you just said what I've basically said in stating that it is NOT impossible.

So, what is your point exactly here, because you've just proved the OP wrong yourself? Looks like you are blind also.

Meh, my vision is pretty good. Especially with regards to faults of the warden. And in the scenario of pulls with CC, guards build hate better or at least in a way that preserves the goals of the group with less risk. If you add, "as well as guards" to most of what the post says then how does it look to you? Is it still 100% fallacy? Can a warden build threat on a CC'd target? DC used to, and thats it..even my baby guard can build threat on CC'd targets.

Me referring to blind defenders of the class is a generalization of almost every thread and not specifically this one. Many of them will defend the class on any aspect just because they love it or something. I have no good explanation why they do it - it just happens.

token gif with loosely based subject

Looks like Batman and Robin said something unpopular about wardens in warden forum.

Originally Posted by Mysterion

If you add, "as well as guards" to most of what the post says then how does it look to you? Is it still 100% fallacy?

If "as well as guards", was added, I never would have entered in to the discussion, because it's true.

Can a warden build threat on a CC'd target? DC used to, and thats it..even my baby guard can build threat on CC'd targets.

cough... threat transfers... cough, cough. It seems that you are too caught up on faults as always, there are strengths to the class too you know... Who cares if it's built or transferred? You're just being you though.

Originally Posted by horus418

If "as well as guards", was added, I never would have entered in to the discussion, because it's true.



cough... threat transfers... cough, cough. It seems that you are too caught up on faults as always, there are strengths to the class too you know... Who cares if it's built or transferred? You're just being you though.

Transfers don't build threat, hence the bold tag. It was the main point, you can't leach a bunch of threat if it doesn't exist. I'm aware there are strengths.

To be honest this issue [aoe threat+cc] has always nagged at me, maybe its how constrained I feel when I've raided with having to worry about CC. I usually fell back on DC for building threat of CC'd targets, which became problematic with RoI b/c I had to slot WotW, capstone - meaning dropping GMWT for DC, which I wasn't super fond of. I know that masteries are different now.

Originally Posted by Nevril

when I say "LM CC this, BRG CC this other, GRD take these mobs, WRD take these others" the WRD awakes everyone. For a War-Cry or a preparred EoB... It doesn't matter. The GRD just shouts and do direct AoE Threat without awaken anyone.
This is why Wardens can't truly do AoE Threat.

1. you cant play warden. i mean you do but youre pretty bad if youre awakening cc'ed mobs
2.your fellow wardens are also pretty bad. im tanking the whole time since mirkwood on my warden and really really rarely it happens. with theese last changes i just quickly hit mpbs with javelin. than go away. if main target is in my resposible i use a pb so it keep him a cople sec. on me. than when im far enough from cc'ed crowd i use EoB. than everything is easypeasy.
if someone doesnt do it right. dont blame the class. nowadays there is nothing a warden cant do that a guard can. just about being a good player and respectful to 11 other more people to spending their time with your own.

honestly after i the part i took quote i didnt read but really. breaking CC's ? practice more

btw. i want to share a cycle.
2132(with BP before combat)
javelins pbs etc etc and take them away
EoB
212
2121
defansive strike (BM)
2323
2323(@BM)

so you will get your SM,block buff from 212 line block buff from shield mastery crit def mit buff from 232 line.
by the time using DoW twice will make you CC'ed mobs first target
and in my raids. when we have to get CCed mobs just before we get them targeted my leader tells me get him. i get him. than everything is done. please dont cry about anything about warden. warden is living a golden age. but it doesnt mean its as easy as guards. being a warden is like a job. you need to work harder and even after that you may not be good.
delete your warden and roll a guard but than dont cry about how you can not hold agro from glass cannon hunters and wardens can do.

btw i saw some discussions about building agro on CC'ed target.
1- as i say on my first post using xfers will make you first target in cases of CC skills duration finished.
2-if you want to get it before duration is on, besides xfers first warden's taunt make you his target than you can easily (12)(32) with masteries and use EoB or just 1 and use pb.
3- if someone else break the mezz which is worst situation:
3,1-if he is a heavy than np he can take a hit and handle it till you get agro
3,2- he is an RK LM or hunter which is still handleable but a bit a critic situation
after all if someone else break mezz before you, it is not tanks fault at all. go blame your RK.
return to 2 and read it again. there is no way a good warden can not control a CC mob.

Originally Posted by Mysterion

Transfers don't build threat, hence the bold tag. It was the main point, you can't leach a bunch of threat if it doesn't exist. I'm aware there are strengths.

To be honest this issue [aoe threat+cc] has always nagged at me, maybe its how constrained I feel when I've raided with having to worry about CC. I usually fell back on DC for building threat of CC'd targets, which became problematic with RoI b/c I had to slot WotW, capstone - meaning dropping GMWT for DC, which I wasn't super fond of. I know that masteries are different now.

I think people are just finding it hard to understand why you want to generate a large amount of threat on something that's not in combat.

If a burg Riddles something, and you leech whatever small amount of threat Riddle generated, then you will have aggro on that mob when it wakes up. You're done, it doesn't matter if you leeched 0.5T or generated 200T, the mob will still target you when it wakes up. Once it's awake you can of course build additional threat as needed.

This works great in the Helegrod Drake Wing - whoever mezzes the two big drakes loses aggro pretty quickly just from being leeched, and once the team finishes going around the room and is ready to wake them up, they're on a warden who then EoBs or PBs or whatevers as people start to generate their own threat by attacking the no-longer-CCed target. I don't see how adding more warden threat during the mez would make that strategy any more efficient than it already is.