Thread: Compared to Minstrels...

...hunters are dps chumps. I just watched a minstrel 5 levels below me blow out Level 66 White Hand Warg-tamers and Trained Wargs with just 3 hits each. Inspecting him did not show any high end raid gear or high end equipment. Only quest gear. He would play his little bag pipe and hit them a couple of times and they would die. He was taking on three and four at a time. And here I am, the MASTER OF DPS and it takes me seven or eight hits to take one down. Meanwhile they are chewing on my wonderfully nerfed medium armour while the minstrel has this continous healing going. I don't raid so I have quest gear my legendary bow is maxed out at level 75. I've been playing this game for over four years so I know a little bit about playing, but I have to tell you, watching this minstrel who is 5 levels below me just taking on these mobs waaaay quicker than I ever could was somewhat discouraging. Here's hoping that someday we get a dev who actually shows that they care about this class.

What would you guys do without us, you and your little bows and arrows. :-)

Rosy

In some ways, I kind of hope the minstrels get the nerf everyone wants. It will be entertaining to see content completed consistently without healers.

In case you were attempting to be serious, I can claim the exact opposite experience. Before U5, I felt the mini was the most powerful PVE DPS class in the game. I did not like this as I rolled my mini to heal. In order to add the DPS, they nerfed heals and removed survivability. It made absolutely no sense to me. But it happened. I played my hunter and played my mini and the mini felt more powerful at first, but that has changed.

Now, today, after U6... this is reversed. The hunter crits far more often with more positive results. His crit rating is built right into his core stat, where the mini has to work on alternate stats to improve crit.

What I have found is that the hunter can effortlessly keep up constant DPS better now and the mini has to work harder to rely on crits. The hunter also enjoys medium armor and does not have to switch to DPS gear to gain finesse necessary to hit mobs.

For a mini to 3 shot a mob, they would have to hit a skill with a 5 minute CD which is also their only skill to remove a silence (something that immediately takes away ALL DPS and heals). With that skill on CD, they have to ballad up (3 skills) to get the kind of DPS that would 3 shot an on level mob, but would also likely add an anthem, and echoes of battle... 5 skills before ever really adding any DPS. From this point they would need to crit, or most likely devastate all 3 skills. I'm not claiming you didn't see this... but there is a chance you saw something very rare. And the reason I'm focusing on crits... its the only way a mini can DPS. If they aren't critting, they are dead. Landscape level 75 mobs can hit a well geared 75 mini for 1k. They simply cannot take a beating for long.

Additionally, once a mini gets his ballads up, he is very effective at AoE's for a short burst. So, if he had 3 or 4 mobs trained, his AoE's would make short work of them after his first 3 or 4 skills were already benefiting him. A single target hunter can't compete with an AoE class in an apple to apple scenario. The hunter will get hit for less, can CC more, has a higher evade, will kill each mob faster, but the mini can kill groups more effectively and heal some to offset.

The thing people don't consider with the mini class is that in order to DPS to their best potential, their heals are nerfed exponentially and the power cost is very high. When a mini is healing, he has lower power, highly potent heals. Once he goes all red, the power requirements go sky high, the inductions are longer, the potency is shot, and they even lose some skills when in the stance necessary to hit hard. (an extremely long induction stance to get back into if you drop just to heal with your nerfed skills)

As a hunter... I'm happy with where hunters are right now. They are a great single target DPS class. As a mini, I'm not very happy. The squishiness is too far on the squishy side and the damage has very quietly been brought down (probably to where it should be, but the survivability has not been brought back up).

My mini is my best geared toon. My hunter is much worse off in terms of gear, and yet can easily and quite consistently out-DPS the mini. There are occasions when the mini can chain a back to back crit and it helps to move through mobs very impressively... but the norm is for the hunter to win... at least in my experience. I've had a hunter since before Moria, but he didn't reach cap until after the big nerfs hit. This is most effective I've ever seen the hunter class. Ask some hunters for their logs from Draigoch.

Minstrels have the ability to heal themselves better then any other class, they can also now pump out more dps then hunters. It is commonly known that minstrels are OP so don't feel too inferior. Although hunters have lost their spot on the dps tree and now are about half way down instead of on the top. Hunters are also on the bottom of the survivability list, if you have ever been in the Moors then you know that all the creeps will go for hunters first and you will fall very fast.

I've never met a mini who could out-dps me on anything. You can't really judge a whole lot based on killing solo mobs either, while you may one-shot something once with a dev heartseeker, the next time it may take you 10 hits because you didn't get a single crit and got lots of misses or resists.

I've played my hunter for over 2 years so i know the class very well, i also have a level 54 mini ATM (had it for about 4 months with on and off playing). My mini crits often (like every 5 hits) and crits hard (one crit at level 50 i remember was like around 2k-2.5k for coda of fury). I've also seen lots of minis in moors and raids who like to dps, the first person to reach rank 15 in the moors in North America was the mini Ramsters and this was before the super OP mode minis. Minis also have a much much higher survivability rate because of their bubble and many self heals. In PvP i fought a mini as a warg with a defiler and a warleader and we couldn't kill him until he had 8 drakes on him and all three of us had died, the fight was about 5 min. long and he used his power regain song to never run out of power.

Originally Posted by hucklebarry

In some ways, I kind of hope the minstrels get the nerf everyone wants. It will be entertaining to see content completed consistently without healers.

In case you were attempting to be serious, I can claim the exact opposite experience. Before U5, I felt the mini was the most powerful PVE DPS class in the game. I did not like this as I rolled my mini to heal. In order to add the DPS, they nerfed heals and removed survivability. .....

I stopped reading right there. The rest of what you had to say was tainted by that "WTH was he thinking trying to claim that?" moment.

I won't support the OP's contention that mini's have better DPS than us, but they sure do have better burst damage (and as good AoE) and survivability.

If the hunter is allowed to use Improved Focus, I dont really see how any class would outDPS us with burst damage. I tend to kill normal mobs with 1-2 Pene + 1 Blood Arrow or 1 swift bow + 0-1 Pene.

Minstrels are nice on 2-4 mobs, more stable DPS, but when we go to 5 mobs and above not even champs can take on a hunter when it comes to AoE DPS, RoA Spam is just extremely powerful.

The survivability of a minstrel is a completely different story though.

I play both classes, and, as many have said before, the mini (average quest geared) crits much more often than the hunter, that's true. However, minstrels have a burst of dps, huge light skills that allow us to kill landscape mobs FAST before they get a chance to crit us badly. Why? Because, heals or not, minstrels are very squishy.

Unlike the hunter, who can pretty much kill any landscape mob (a single one) by keyboard mashing or spamming penetrating shot 3X, the minstrel has to wisely choose attack rotation to increase crits, increase output damage, debuff the mob's resists ratings, mitigations, etc.

Is a minstrel a better dps than a hunter? NO.
A minstrel crits more, but can't endure long fights as well as a hunter would. Minstrel DPS has a huge power cost and that's very inconvenient for long battles.

Can a minstrel one-shot a (same level) mob? Sure. I have +crit for Call to Fate legacy maxed, I've been known to crit for 6k at level 68, but then again, my hunter can also one-shot a mob with a Heart Seeker, it's only a matter of luck (and a little help from the stats).

Originally Posted by Elemiire

Is a minstrel a better dps than a hunter? NO.
A minstrel crits more, but can't endure long fights as well as a hunter would. Minstrel DPS has a huge power cost and that's very inconvenient for long battles.

I have to disagree with you there. A minstrel can survive long fights with a self-heal. The hunter, on the other hand, has been put at the top of the squishy list and will run out of self-heals way before a minstrel will. My guardian though can outlive both classes.

Originally Posted by Rwraith

I have to disagree with you there. A minstrel can survive long fights with a self-heal. The hunter, on the other hand, has been put at the top of the squishy list and will run out of self-heals way before a minstrel will. My guardian though can outlive both classes.

I meant power-wise.

Of course a minstrel survives longer than a hunter (if we don't forget to heal ourselves), but I meant endurance as in how long you can stand a battle without having to anthem +coda (or pot) excessively to keep up decent dps.

Minstrels are nowhere near as squishy as hunters lol. The difference between medium/light classes has been minimal to negligible after RoI, and put quite simply: minstrels have heals, we don't. You also have more power to chew through, if that's a problem for you.
If you're basing your claim on the fact that minnies are squishy if they don't heal themselves, that's flat out ignoring the most powerful part of the class. On the flip side, that'd be like me claiming hunters can't take on more than 3 sig mobs, because we can with our CC. You can with your heals. Minstrels aren't "squishy" against anything lower than a elite master. And yes, minstrels can compete with hunter dps in theory, but many of their uncontrolled AOEs and disgusting burst damage would just create a hellish raid, even more so than hunters often do as of now.

What Bond said. My main is a 75 hunter who is pretty well geared (doesn't have T2 raid gear or 1st Age bow but everything else); I've just now got a minstrel to 75. Life for the minnie seems so much easier, and with 5 red and Call to War traited the DPS is still pretty darn amazing. Not in a hunter's class, but good nevertheless. Add in the fact that you can self-heal and still throw out a few heals in warspeech, or go harmony, and there is no comparison between hunter and minstrel survivability.

I have a lvl 75 2300 agility 30k physical mastery hunter and even with less stats, I just laugh about minstrel dps, sorry.
I have a 2000 willpower minstrel actually traited 5 red for questing around Stangard and of course this class has some nice burst, but burstskills with cooldowns. For dps a minstrel will never be a rival for a hunter in any endgame raid, instance or even skirmish.

The only advantage a minstrel has, is that he is able to take out more than one mob simultanously while soloing, thanks to
self healing and bubble. Minstrels need theses tricks to stay alive. Light armor is now exactly that, what the name describes "light". A soloing minstrel may be a bit faster while soloing/questing as a hunter, my question would be "and..?". Next time the TO will cry for a nerf for champions, because they do so much AE-damage. In case of killing speed for questing/Slayer Deeds, champions are the absolute winners, hands down.

Maybe the TO should ask a minstrel if he is able to solo the limlight trees for tranches and heartwood as easy and as fast as a hunter?

he he, comparing mins with hunters. Both of my mini (main) and hunt are fully geared (well, i only lack my last 2 pieces of ToO on hunt) and i can say for sure, no mini will ever even be close to a hunter as dps. Let put it this way:
- in tests on dummys i had around 500-700 dps on my mini
- hunter can go around 1,5-1,6

Talking about first 5 seconds of a fight, the mini will do nice burst damage ... and that it, after that u will cast ballad, ballad, ballad (that mean 500-700 each) and a hunt can score 1 - 2 k / quick shot. But on my mini i can solo even 2 trees in limight ... Also, the mini can use ALL their offensive skills on moving so as long as u kite in circles, u are invincible. And u have stuff like fear wich is instant, slow from CoW, distraction for multiple targets etc.

No, u cannot compare hunters with minstrels as damage per second. Hunters DO dps, minstrels cannot do constant dps and are not available in raids as tactical DPS (my opinion).
Yes, as survability mins are on the second place after wardens. Hunters instead ...
But... remember, minstrels are healers. Hunters are dps. Why to compare those? Compare a hunter with a RK and u will not laught about their dps.
Respect all

Originally Posted by andracy

he he, comparing mins with hunters. Both of my mini (main) and hunt are fully geared (well, i only lack my last 2 pieces of ToO on hunt) and i can say for sure, no mini will ever even be close to a hunter as dps. Let put it this way:
- in tests on dummys i had around 500-700 dps on my mini
- hunter can go around 1,5-1,6

Talking about first 5 seconds of a fight, the mini will do nice burst damage ... and that it, after that u will cast ballad, ballad, ballad (that mean 500-700 each) and a hunt can score 1 - 2 k / quick shot. But on my mini i can solo even 2 trees in limight ... Also, the mini can use ALL their offensive skills on moving so as long as u kite in circles, u are invincible. And u have stuff like fear wich is instant, slow from CoW, distraction for multiple targets etc.

No, u cannot compare hunters with minstrels as damage per second. Hunters DO dps, minstrels cannot do constant dps and are not available in raids as tactical DPS (my opinion).
Yes, as survability mins are on the second place after wardens. Hunters instead ...
But... remember, minstrels are healers. Hunters are dps. Why to compare those? Compare a hunter with a RK and u will not laught about their dps.
Respect all

Many hunters are comparing the hunter class with the minstrel class because of the insane survivability of the minstrel, especially in the moors. As much as hunters do more dps than a minstrel, a minstrel does way more dps than a dead hunter.

Originally Posted by Thraxz1982

I stopped reading right there.

You admittedly respond to a post which you have not read in entirety which means you can't possibly have an educated response to contribute to the thread. The mini nerfs with updates 5 and 6 are well documented. Beginning with, but not limited to the removal of medium armor, the reduction of the bubble (other classes have a bubble, ALL of them add more defense than the mini version), and a 40% nerf to heals when traited red (in addition to losing other healing perks like power cost, induction time, your two best healing (uh-oh) skills, etc).

So, yes, I actually said minis have lost survivability. And as I said in the part you didn't read, a landscape mob can crit a mini for 1k (or any light armor). They don't have DPS AND survivability... the DPS is part of their survivability. People are continuing to merge a healing mini with a DPS mini... two completely different classes that do not exist within the same fight. As I said in my post, My not so well geared hunter can out-DPS my well geared mini. I've see the parses of hunters in draigoch and I've seen the crits a well geared hunter can do. Not only are hunters extremely survivable with all the CC, slows, bleeds, etc... but they are well set with DPS.

You are fully allowed to disagree based on your own expert, first hand knowledge of the two classes, but when you don't bother to read what you are disagreeing to, your post sounds less like contribution and more like trolling or agenda based.

While you can not compare these two classes DPS-wise there are a lot of misconceptions in this thread.

A hunter will never be out dpsed by a minstrel. Their burst comes close though, when you count a couple of seconds for each fight.

When you say you have power issues and you compare it to the hunter class keep in mind that minstrels nowadays tend to have three times my power pool and probably a couple hundred points more power reg. Do the minstrels skill cost 200-500 power? That would be three times the cost of the average hunter DMG skills.

As for CC. There is a stun, an undead mezz, a fear. True, we have more.

When it comes to PvP though it all differs a bit.

As conclusion though, The devs made it easy for every class to solo through solo content, that is just the end of this trend.

The issue is that in a fight a hunter may be able to dps a solo target better then a mini but there is a reason they can out dps minis they can only dps. A hunter rarely beats a hunter in a fight because minis don't just dps they can pop off a few CC's like the hunter but they are instant cast and minis even have skills that can make mobs not notice them and stop hitting them. Most importantly they have heals, a bubble and a skill that even gives them a fair amount of power regain. The armor difference between hunters is the difference between an extra 25 damage every hit? Its hard to compare them because they are so different and have different roles but ive seen minstrels do much more harder and complicated tasks then most hunter can do on a good day.

Originally Posted by Legonist

The issue is that in a fight a hunter may be able to dps a solo target better then a mini but there is a reason they can out dps minis they can only dps. A hunter rarely beats a hunter in a fight because minis don't just dps they can pop off a few CC's like the hunter but they are instant cast and minis even have skills that can make mobs not notice them and stop hitting them. Most importantly they have heals, a bubble and a skill that even gives them a fair amount of power regain. The armor difference between hunters is the difference between an extra 25 damage every hit? Its hard to compare them because they are so different and have different roles but ive seen minstrels do much more harder and complicated tasks then most hunter can do on a good day.

ppl must read guides like "what others should know about ... minstrels". On paper sound unfair but:
- bubble is only 1,1k morale
- is not a skill who give back power, is a succesion of skills (5 actually) who will give you 1.6k power and u consume 800 for those, meaning u will be busy some seconds, also u will loose all your ballads/anathems
- is no such skill who can make mobs not notice us and stop hitting us, distraction dont work in combat, only work out of combat. But we have feign death who will reset the fight (aka HiPS).
- fear is like bard's arrow only that is instant, also can miss
- song of dead is usefull only on deads.

when i need to heal, i go on my mini, when i need to dps, i go on my hunter.

Originally Posted by andracy

ppl must read guides like "what others should know about ... minstrels". On paper sound unfair but:
- bubble is only 1,1k morale
- is not a skill who give back power, is a succesion of skills (5 actually) who will give you 1.6k power and u consume 800 for those, meaning u will be busy some seconds, also u will loose all your ballads/anathems
- is no such skill who can make mobs not notice us and stop hitting us, distraction dont work in combat, only work out of combat. But we have feign death who will reset the fight (aka HiPS).
- fear is like bard's arrow only that is instant, also can miss
- song of dead is usefull only on deads.

All of this is true. The wide range of skills that Minis have make them even more useful, they are a fully working healing class (my personal favorite to be healed by) but they can put off a very nice amount of dps, they are even making coda of Fury hit as much as it did in the past. I would consider Minis a good (knows when and were to use skills) dps class but may be beat by some of the dps classes that know their class well and don't just button mash that is their designed role , but they can also last longer at dpsing because of their great survivability making them a good dps class you know wont just fall apart if it gets hit by a stray attack by a enemy and doesn't get a heal from the healer. If a mini asked me to join a raid to dps i would allow it as long as he wasn't the only dps class around. Worst comes to worst the mini pops out of warspeech and pops of a few heals for the group. Remember i may talk about dps alot because ive seen lots of minis who can get pretty good damage but we are also looking at the other abilities that make them a great class while have the ability to do dps on top of being able to heal and give group support.

Just throwing in my two copper, from what I am experiencing right now, Minstrels, PvE and solo, duo, small group are ALOT better than a hunter, as someone said above, Minstrels do more DPS than a dead hunter, that hits it right on the nail. (+rep to that person, by the way). I like the way Minstrels are right now, but damn are they way too powerful.

truth is, my numbers as dps was taken with out being traited with even one red trait ), i forget about this, sorry. After i finished stangard i retraited to my usuall combo and i grinded the dailys for golden tokens with out retraiting red, because i can handle. I will make a dps test today to see how much dps can reach a fully geared and red traited mini.

Think you'll be surprised by the results Andy - on my n00b 75 d0rf with 4r/3b, Call to Fate was hitting for 2.4k a pop and ballads were doing 500. With a bit more gear (hopefully tonight I'm expecting 4k devastates, and that's BEFORE the coda gets re-buffed. This is with only 20k tac mastery.

I don't know, but I sure know that RK's can sustain a higher DPS than either a hunter or a mini...

</sarcasm>

Seriously, I've not seen a mini put out more DPS a hunter. That is, equally geared and experienced players. I am sure not many others have either, when push comes to shove, groups rather take a hunter for their DPS than a mini.

Originally Posted by Legonist

The wide range of skills that Minis have make them even more useful, they are a fully working healing class (my personal favorite to be healed by) but they can put off a very nice amount of dps, they are even making coda of Fury hit as much as it did in the past.

They can not, however, do both at the same time, at least nowhere to its full potential. If my mini is traited for dps/solo, with matching LIs and jewellery, I feel like I can get rid of mobs just as quick (if not quicker thanks to the warspeech aoe attacks) as my husband's hunter in full raid dps spec. I even have a habit of tanking for out little duo since my self-heals are adequate even in dps traits to survive a handfull of landscape mobs, something the hunter can't do as easily.

What I can't do is take the traits and equipment into a fellowship instance (much less, a raid) and main-heal the group. Whether in melody or harmony, my heals are nowhere near effective enough to be comfortable with this. It takes a trip to the bard, half a gold coin to retrait all class traits and two out of three legendary ones, and an exchange of a considerable amount of equipment to put out group healing decent enough for an endgame instance or raid. With those traits, I'm nowhere near the hunter where dps is concerned and take noticably more time to get through landscape mobs when I'm soloing.

Bottom line: DPS traited a minstrel can dish out good dps, still not quite as much as a hunter in my experience but decent enough especially in short fights (things slow down quickly once I've gone through all of the big damage skills and have to wait for them to come off cooldown). The price to pay is a loss of healing power that makes them unable to fulfill the role of main healer in any kind of non-trivial content. While you're leveling, expect to meet minstrels that are traited and geared for solo/damage and come close to hunter in damage while passing them in survivability. You won't see the same on healers in group content.

Originally Posted by Legonist

.. if you have ever been in the Moors then you know that all the creeps will go for hunters first and you will fall very fast.

Not necessarily. Depends who else is around. Healing Minstrels and RKs are primary targets, always. Then Warspeech minis and DPS RKs and certainly hunters. Part of that is not ease of kill, but threat. A hunter can still unleash a lot of ranged DPS and removing one helps the survival of all creeps. This is why Captains and Guardians are largely ignored. Yeah, they're tougher to kill sure, but then again they're not going to crit you for half your health or more from from range.

Don't most of you see the real issue? The fact that a mini's dps in comparrison to a hunter is not being laughed off the forum is the issue! The fact that it is even close enough to be discussed should have the entire hunter class up in arms. Any class with a secondary role as dps that is even close enough to draw comparrisions to you should make you mad as he77. (Hello RK too) Come on you guys. Being slightly better is not enough when you have to compete against classes in their secondary roles. Be honest with yourselves, should a class designed as dps with a third rate secondary role not be significantly better at dps than ANY other class in their secondary configuration? Either a hunter should be able to laugh away comparrisions from all but the best geared and best played toons whose secondary role is dps, or your secondary role should be able to be compared to other classes primary roles in the same way their dps compares to yours now.

Originally Posted by Djasi

Don't most of you see the real issue? The fact that a mini's dps in comparrison to a hunter is not being laughed off the forum is the issue! The fact that it is even close enough to be discussed should have the entire hunter class up in arms. Any class with a secondary role as dps that is even close enough to draw comparrisions to you should make you mad as he77. (Hello RK too) Come on you guys. Being slightly better is not enough when you have to compete against classes in their secondary roles. Be honest with yourselves, should a class designed as dps with a third rate secondary role not be significantly better at dps than ANY other class in their secondary configuration? Either a hunter should be able to laugh away comparrisions from all but the best geared and best played toons whose secondary role is dps, or your secondary role should be able to be compared to other classes primary roles in the same way their dps compares to yours now.

Im a burglar and I laugh at minstrel dps. Good hunters laught at minstrel dps. Even a LM does more dps than a minstrel come on.

Originally Posted by Feomalo

Im a burglar and I laugh at minstrel dps. Good hunters laught at minstrel dps. Even a LM does more dps than a minstrel come on.

While certainly true, I think they did amp up the Minstrel DPS a bit too much. And I play one.

Although, aside from the moors and solo it's not really relevant in most cases. Only time I run Warspeech in a group, traited for DPS is for some bizarre turn of events where DPS is needed, but the only toon I can bring is Mini (i.e. most else locked). Sort of similar to running Trapper spec on my hunter. Yeah, I can do it sure. But wouldn't it be better if I just brought LM?

Minstrels do great burst DPS nowadays, but hunter is king of single target DPS. I agree MNS is OP in PvMP, because they can do insane heals and great DPS at the same time, where hunter can only do GREAT DPS, but will die much easier because of lack of survivability skills.

Lately i play creep a lot, and everyone fears the minstrel because they do great DPS, and when they get low on morale they simply pop a heal and are back to full morale. It's really sad to see devs made them like this. If i face a hunter i laugh because i know it won't be able to do anything. But then when i log my own hunter i don't laugh anymore...

"Too bad he's not a hunter, he'd be dead if he was." - Those are the exact words of one of my kin-mates while eyeing solo targets to kill on warg. I died a little on the inside.

After reading all this, I have a hard time understanding where people can come up with the claim that a minstrel can out dps a hunter, sure, I will concede that a mini is much easier to go pvp with, and they have heals which we lack, but what does that have to do with straight out dps? (which is what this thread claims to be about, there are plenty more threads about our other issues) I have a hard time accepting the fact based on somebody's word that any old chump on a mini can out dps my hunter running improved fleetness spamming 10 or so penetrating shots in a row coupled with 30k physical mastery and a first age bow... just doesn't make much sense. If someone were inclined to do a parse of a fully geared mini with a fully geared hunter on a training dummy multiple times and show that in a majority of those trials the minstrel beat the hunter (or even came close) then I might be more inclined to believe the original post that a mini can out dps a hunter (disregarding all the other stuff).

That's theoretical dps. You don't get to do that in most group situations. Parse the practical dps both typically equipped classes can do in most situations and it'll be a lot closer. Even so they won't out dps us. But as people have said they have much greater survivability and a much bigger bag of tricks so unless super-awesome ranged dps was crucial to the instance a minstrel would be a better choice.

The imbalance between classes - but particularly between minstrels/champions and hunters is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by DrumMajorC

After reading all this, I have a hard time understanding where people can come up with the claim that a minstrel can out dps a hunter, sure, I will concede that a mini is much easier to go pvp with, and they have heals which we lack, but what does that have to do with straight out dps? (which is what this thread claims to be about, there are plenty more threads about our other issues) I have a hard time accepting the fact based on somebody's word that any old chump on a mini can out dps my hunter running improved fleetness spamming 10 or so penetrating shots in a row coupled with 30k physical mastery and a first age bow... just doesn't make much sense. If someone were inclined to do a parse of a fully geared mini with a fully geared hunter on a training dummy multiple times and show that in a majority of those trials the minstrel beat the hunter (or even came close) then I might be more inclined to believe the original post that a mini can out dps a hunter (disregarding all the other stuff).

To paraphrase Elrantiri above, A live Minstrel can out DPS a dead hunter.

Originally Posted by Rwraith

To paraphrase Elrantiri above, A live Minstrel can out DPS a dead hunter.

Ok, we maybe have a problem with hunter survivability vs. minstrel survivability in the Moores (and only there), but no dps problem. As a consequence the opening post leads to the totally wrong topic.

In PvE I would wish me a "real" aggro dumb skill too (to prevent the "dead hunter syndrom"), but if your tanks (threat stance, using forced threat shouts) and burglars (8-second-stuns) do it right, you are able to bypass the hunter threat problem.

Originally Posted by Silmahad

Ok, we maybe have a problem with hunter survivability vs. minstrel survivability in the Moores (and only there), but no dps problem. As a consequence the opening post leads to the totally wrong topic.

In PvE I would wish me a "real" aggro dumb skill too (to prevent the "dead hunter syndrom"), but if your tanks (threat stance, using forced threat shouts) and burglars (8-second-stuns) do it right, you are able to bypass the hunter threat problem.

And if my grandma had balls she'd be my grandad. When Turbine makes champ/minstrel/captain/etc survivability dependent on Hunter shot rotation you'll have a point.

I am a non healing dps mini who does accept only dps roles in raids, fellowships and groups.. so I'm not only solo. I have no idea if a mini can out dps a hunter or not but somehow I seriously doubt it. My real issue with this thread is "so what if they can"? LOL .. why does it matter? Or must we keep the mini the underclass of LOTRO? The mini can switch roles just like the RK .. heal or dps. The mini needs all the little skills we have (plus more) to compensate for what we don't have dps wise.. especially compared to other classes like the hunter, champ, burg, cappy or rk.. and yes even the LM. So please everyone just leave the Minstrel alone and stop trying to have the dps part of the class killed and reduced to nothing more than a heal slave. There are some who love to heal and that will never change. By the way, I admire and respect them because it is one of the hardest jobs in a group to do. For those of who prefer to dps the mini, just let us in peace.. PLEASE. For the record, not that it means much or not that anyone would care or notice but if they do ever nerf the dps mini, I'll have to pack my lotro bags and leave. Thank you! (Become a better player by challenging your own class instead of trying to nerf another class.)

Originally Posted by Norwrei

My real issue with this thread is "so what if they can"? LOL .. why does it matter? Or must we keep the mini the underclass of LOTRO? The mini can switch roles just like the RK .. heal or dps.
[...]

That is part of why hunters are so unhappy. Hunters have NO alternative role. Our CC options are laughable and cripple our DPS (unlike a burglar or LM). One of my alts is a minnie so while it's not primary I do understand how the class functions.

Originally Posted by Kongas

And if my grandma had balls she'd be my grandad. When Turbine makes champ/minstrel/captain/etc survivability dependent on Hunter shot rotation you'll have a point.

I'm sorry for your grandma, but in our raids the utter most dead DD class is the burglar, not the hunter...and if your tanks do their job right (threatstance + timed use of forced aggro shouts) you are able to go all out and deliver your 2k dps as for example in the Bukot encounter in ToO T2 challenge mode.

Leaves a survivability problem in the moores or do you want to tell me, that your hunter has problems to solo or quest in PvE? Not a year ago we all here cried for more dps and we got it, more than enough. On the other side medium armor isn't a heavy armor rank 2 anymore and mobs hit harder. That's ok for PvE, but no for PvP I admit. A hunter in the EM is warg fodder at moment, and yes this should be adressed.

...but I always hate that, if people mix up different topics and scenarios in one big whine.