Thread: Bad freeps?, how about awful and disrespectful creeps?

Originally Posted by MorenaT

Well, I may as well get my two cents in.
I don't like fight clubs. It has nothing to do with me being bad, I will attack anything on sight even if I know I'll loose. Which brings me to my point.

Why is it disrespectful to attack a fight club? Does it even occur to you that YOU are being disrespectful for not sharing, for lack of a better word?

Here are 6 plump, delicious looking freeps just standing around doing nothing. I have been prowling around for some time looking for something to chew on, and BINGO! Dinner is served! But no, dinner is reserved for a select few. What you are asking and expecting, is to be served special order food at a buffet. A really really bad buffet that smells wierd. If you don't like the buffet, too bad! It's what we are given.

Everyone always thinks "their way" is the proper way, and anyone who disagrees is wrong, or disrespectful.. pffft

+1 for being the funniest and spot-on post I've read in these sub-forums for a while. "6 plump, delicious looking freeps...." You just made me hungry for a fresh, tasty "freep meal," and I don't even play creepside!

Originally Posted by Straste

..... If two opposing sides that have similar desires and motivations choose of their own free will to play a certain way together who can argue that it is not ok? By the same right who can argue that those who disagree with that choice can't choose another way to play.

Sums up my point of view too: both opinions, and all opinions in-between are fine. That's why we have free will, amen. I personally get a chuckle being in a group that rains on the fight club parade. But I don't look down on all fight clubbers and some have made some very good points on how it builds solo skills and confidence.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

When did you start PvPing?

He played here a long time, just FYI

The note he as under his avatar rings a bell, but I honestly don't remember who he is. I'm intrigued now; any hints?

Originally Posted by Forza

The note he as under his avatar rings a bell, but I honestly don't remember who he is. I'm intrigued now; any hints?

I don't remember if he/she had any freeps, but Thetao was a notoriously slippery warg to kill in Mora time and early Mirkwood IIRC.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I don't remember if he/she had any freeps, but Thetao was a notoriously slippery warg to kill in Mora time and early Mirkwood IIRC.

thanks for the hints, but I still don't remember him/her... Oh well

So just because curiosity killed the cat and not the warg,

To all those who kill on sight,

I'm just wondering, one of your main points has been that you are not going out of your way to ruin other people's PvMP by jumping in on 1v1s, but I honestly have to ask, do you realize that everytime someone's 1v1 is ruined, and if that person is NOT a dedicated "soloer," that they are more liekly to only PvMP in groups and raids. The average raid size over just the past few months has gone up from by about 10, and the zergballs on both sides continually get bigger. And while I fully understand your Kill on Sight mentality, I just can't help but wonder, do you realize that yourself and those who also attack everything they see have actually been a large contribution to the "MUST Zerg to have fun/stay alive" mentality that pollutes the Moors? And/or do you also realize that while you are not going out of your way to harm other persons PvMP gameplay, you are still in fact harming it? AND do you realize that by your logic of there being no "rules" except the lossely obeyed "guidelines" established by the community, that there would be absolutely nothing wrong with someone either A. Following you around the map, calling you out and preventing your from what you consider "good PvMP", or B. Following you around the map and "stealing" your kills, inf/reknown, and comms?

Again, this is not meant to be trolling, I am just curious if Kill on Sighters understand the rammifications of having a KoS mentality and that it DOES in fact affect other people, even if you don't mean it too, and also if you wouldn't get annoyed if someone did the same thing to you all the time.

-Wallet

Originally Posted by Denno

So just because curiosity killed the cat and not the warg,

To all those who kill on sight,

I'm just wondering, one of your main points has been that you are not going out of your way to ruin other people's PvMP by jumping in on 1v1s, but I honestly have to ask, do you realize that everytime someone's 1v1 is ruined, and if that person is NOT a dedicated "soloer," that they are more liekly to only PvMP in groups and raids. The average raid size over just the past few months has gone up from by about 10, and the zergballs on both sides continually get bigger. And while I fully understand your Kill on Sight mentality, I just can't help but wonder, do you realize that yourself and those who also attack everything they see have actually been a large contribution to the "MUST Zerg to have fun/stay alive" mentality that pollutes the Moors? And/or do you also realize that while you are not going out of your way to harm other persons PvMP gameplay, you are still in fact harming it? AND do you realize that by your logic of there being no "rules" except the lossely obeyed "guidelines" established by the community, that there would be absolutely nothing wrong with someone either A. Following you around the map, calling you out and preventing your from what you consider "good PvMP", or B. Following you around the map and "stealing" your kills, inf/reknown, and comms?

Again, this is not meant to be trolling, I am just curious if Kill on Sighters understand the rammifications of having a KoS mentality and that it DOES in fact affect other people, even if you don't mean it too, and also if you wouldn't get annoyed if someone did the same thing to you all the time.

-Wallet

Can't say I don't agree with this, earlier today was trying to solo only to be thwarted by a small group at everyturn, logged on again later after some sleep and still found myself getting blown up by small groups or the zerg that was running around. Eventually I just stopped caring, grouped up with Kinmates and started having some real fun, I enjoy soloing when I actually see soloers anything more and it just leads to frustration.

Just to note I really don't care if I die or not, I'm sure plenty of people who have 1v1'ed with me can say I'm plenty squishy (Except the Warleaders, lol.) I'll fight people I know I can't win against, usually high ranking BAs, Spiders, Defilers and I enjoy the challenge, try to learn from my defeats, getting blown up by a group on the other hand..isn't much to learn from that except bring more peeps next time.

Originally Posted by Denno

So just because curiosity killed the cat and not the warg,

To all those who kill on sight,

I'm just wondering, one of your main points has been that you are not going out of your way to ruin other people's PvMP by jumping in on 1v1s, but I honestly have to ask, do you realize that everytime someone's 1v1 is ruined, and if that person is NOT a dedicated "soloer," that they are more liekly to only PvMP in groups and raids. The average raid size over just the past few months has gone up from by about 10, and the zergballs on both sides continually get bigger. And while I fully understand your Kill on Sight mentality, I just can't help but wonder, do you realize that yourself and those who also attack everything they see have actually been a large contribution to the "MUST Zerg to have fun/stay alive" mentality that pollutes the Moors? And/or do you also realize that while you are not going out of your way to harm other persons PvMP gameplay, you are still in fact harming it? AND do you realize that by your logic of there being no "rules" except the lossely obeyed "guidelines" established by the community, that there would be absolutely nothing wrong with someone either A. Following you around the map, calling you out and preventing your from what you consider "good PvMP", or B. Following you around the map and "stealing" your kills, inf/reknown, and comms?

Again, this is not meant to be trolling, I am just curious if Kill on Sighters understand the rammifications of having a KoS mentality and that it DOES in fact affect other people, even if you don't mean it too, and also if you wouldn't get annoyed if someone did the same thing to you all the time.

-Wallet

Coming from an RPvP background, I cannot say I have ever liked the KOS mentality in PVP. I do enjoy stalking my prey in the moors, even if some of the time I stalk only and never attack. As for interrupting a 1 vs 1, if i come on someone fighting a person in my group or tribe, unless I am asked ahead of time, I will jump in. If I see the fight is nearing the end either side has the potential to win, I will most times stay in stealth, and watch the fight,. I have seen a few good fights and some funny double KO's.

I will call out a fight club taking place on a map spot, but if the night is slow, I may instead pop out, and say hello to folks I know there, I think a fight club should be moved to candy mountain or some other place far removed, I think sometimes freeps try to hold the fighting close to creep rez circles so that creeps can get back quickly if there are no defilers or wl's present.

Sparring has always been a part of the PvP scene. People enjoy testing themselves against an opponent, and for some, this works out well.

But KOS is never good,. I like being able to pop out at friends, or pounce a freep off their horse to say hello.

Originally Posted by Denno

I am just curious if Kill on Sighters understand the rammifications of having a KoS mentality and that it DOES in fact affect other people, even if you don't mean it too

Interesting point. One of the direct consequence of this mentally is the anormal warg population level in the Moors actually. It has created an unhealty cycle ==>

-New player come in the Moors and roll a few random creeps, to test and find one that he would like playing.
-He start leveling his character by questing and few raid actions.
-Find himself focus fired during raid (squeshy target) and jumped regularly while questing, leaving him with no chance of survival.
-Roll a warg and discover its way easier to quest/raid/rank with it, thanks to stealth/sprint/hips/wargs pack.
-Play his warg almost full time.

Its becoming very difficult to create a balanced raid to face the freeps now, since wargs represent 40-50% of the total active creeps at any given moment. From a healing point of view, its a real pain to heal wargs, since they are always deep behind the ennemy lines or scouting around, thus out of range/line of sight.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Its becoming very difficult to create a balanced raid to face the freeps now, since wargs represent 40-50% of the total active creeps at any given moment. From a healing point of view, its a real pain to heal wargs, since they are always deep behind the ennemy lines or scouting around, thus out of range/line of sight.

Imagine if the wargs were playing something raid-useful like reavers or WLs...whole different ballgame then for sure.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Its becoming very difficult to create a balanced raid to face the freeps now, since wargs represent 40-50% of the total active creeps at any given moment. From a healing point of view, its a real pain to heal wargs, since they are always deep behind the ennemy lines or scouting around, thus out of range/line of sight.

Even when I set up an actual open raid, they still tend to end up as warg packs with a smattering of other classes. There are raid leaders who will explicitly limit the number of wargs they let in and, while I'm not one of them, I can understand why sometimes.

We used to split the wargs off into a separate pack that would then support the main creep raid. Wallet and I used to have amazing success working with a couple of raid leaders that way (Shaz and Ugmog spring immediately to mind).

I've cut back on the packs lately, limiting them pretty much to tribe groups and a few friends, all of us who 1) can play our wargs with a good level of skill and 2) aren't afraid to die. To be honest, I've noticed that alot of the newer wargies are more than a little hestitant to get into the thick of battle.

-pup-

I'm too lazy to go and check, but I think this is the 9th or 10th time I've posted this response about gameplay:



People are gonna play how they want, for their own reasons, regardless.
They do not care how other people play until it clashes with theirs and then everyone gets noble and philosophical to make themselves look good and be loved by all.


But you need the One Ring for that.

Originally Posted by Denno

<snip>

Again, this is not meant to be trolling, I am just curious if Kill on Sighters understand the rammifications of having a KoS mentality and that it DOES in fact affect other people, even if you don't mean it too, and also if you wouldn't get annoyed if someone did the same thing to you all the time.

-Wallet

You make a good point that I've thought quite a bit about over the years and I'd like to respond with my conclusions.

First off, let's get this out of the way so we can be very clear about the scope of the conversation. Fightclubs are NOT solo players. It's not soloing. What we're talking about here are real solo players people who ride out without others and with no intention of finding or using other friendly forces to fight. Only happenstance would bring a solo player to a fight with other friendly forces.

Ok, with that point made (and if it's in dispute I can go into more detail on my thought process later) but let's take that as a given and move on to your point.

I'm going to restate it to insure I understand and prevent misunderstanding: As I read your position you are saying that solo players getting killed on sight by whatever they come across or comes across them will ultimately become frustrated and turn to grouping, raiding or all out zerging out of desperation to not get rolled. This in turn reduces the number of solo players, which exacerbates the stress on the existing solo players making it harder for them thereby causing more of them to group/raid/zerg which in turn creates an overwhelming circle that ruins solo playability on the entire server.

If this is what you're saying then here's my response...

There are a LOT of components to this issue. I'll do my best to break them down seperately.

1> Cost/Benefit or Risk/Reward analysis of game mechanics...Solo kills yield maximum renown/infamy (renown going forward to save words) per kill. This should bring with it a heightened risk associated with the increased reward (note: this is why raid renown multipliers should NOT exist AND why fightclubbing is virtually cheating, both of those things break the risk/reward balance of the game).

Note: not all players (in fact I'd hazzard to guess the vast minority) are seeking a high risk/high reward play experience...just look at the trends in game design over the past 10 years...almost all PvP and PvE game design is trending towards lower and lower risk gameplay. People like the slow and steady guarenteed advancement. It's been shown time and time again. Yes, this leads to FEW soloers...but that's just the way it is..and frankly in a one zone situation it makes sense that the fewest would be solo, the next fewest would be small groups, then the larger amount of players would raid. It's also why (as was mentioned above) we see so many players historically flocking to wargs and stealth classes in a PvMP situation. It's the lower risk option.

AND it's why we see surges in classes who are "powerful" at that time. These numbers are irrefutable. People choose the path of least resistance. Note: this is why I think discussions like these are important...because they can help put social pressures into the equation to make various gameplay decisions MORE difficult. Why doesn't everyone roll an alt and self farm? For this reason. Social pressures are part of the equation for the path of least resistance. As is FUN. Fun counts quite a bit...but it's subjective so it's very very diffucult to quantify.

Ok, enough on risk/reward. How does it answer your question? In a few ways. It is easier to accept that soloers are willing to accept a greater level of frustration for the greater potential gains. It also touches on the fact that other mechanics come into play. Not just solo's dying, but the imbalance in risk when fightclubbing becomes the norm. I personally think this is the single most destructive thing to happen to PvMP since the game went live. It gives people a false sense of the risk/reward balance and wrecks gameplay due to that imbalance. Lastly, with regard to risk/reward, there's the important thing to consider...players can switch playstyles anytime...this means just because a soloer joins a raid doesn't mean that player won't solo later on...the risk/reward balances still exist. Situational players IMHO should form the bulk of the player base...the vast majority.

2> The unknown. Ok, Here's really the heart of the matter. IF your supposition is true...then what's the alternative? To ONLY fight "fair" fights? Then define fair. There are FAR too many factors to consider to EVER insure people wouldn't feel "ganked" anyhow.

I can beat Arctic in a good fight, if I have my cooldowns, and I don't screw up.
I can also EXPLODE to Arctic if I don't have my cooldowns. (<7k morale with ZERO BPE doesn't last long if I have no tricks)
I can beat 2-3 even 4 creeps if they're low ranks and/or npc envolvement, good cooldown use, they don't pot a 10s horn, um...audacity levels, if they're the right classes...etc..
OR I can EXPLODE to 2 creeps before I can even hit ONE key.
I can fight a Defiler and win.
I can fight a Defiler and never get them below 90% of their life
I can fight a WL and win.
I can fight a WL and never get them below 90% of their life (AND they still have Uruk heal in reserve)
I can engage a Reaver...have a VERY close fight, and then EXPLODE to a warg strike when the reaver is at 500 morale.
I can engage a Reager...have a VERY close fight, health pot the warg strike, pop a bubble, the reaver bleeds out in an example of perfect timing and have a chance to fight the warg...AND WIN.
I can get kited through an entire keep of enemy npcs and get the KB on a bug even after he burrows.
I can get pulled into ONE goblin and end up eating dirt because the creep outlasted me.
I can engage a R0 warg get some solid hits in, see him dissappear chase and get hit by a R10 warg and die...OR kill them both.

AND any combination of those and many many many many more. And guess what? Literally EVERY one of these situations happened to me this weekend.

Was I the "ganker" in some of those situations? To someone eye's sure. Was I "ganked" in some of those situations? Probably.

Can I cry about my nearly 10,000 deaths in the moors? No. It's the whole point of the game.

Note: this uncertainty is EXACTLY why I'm against people who use bait-stealth/call-outs/maps to EXCLUSIVELY hunt smaller forces and groups. They're breaking the uncertainty, from the other direction. They're removing (or reducing) the uncertainty from the cost/benefit analysis.

3> Tacit collusion. Here's an example. I'm fighting a creep and I see freeps ride by and ignore our "1v1". Several things can happen.
-I have all the tools necessary to have a "fair" fight and I lose. Ok...bummer, but at least I got a good fight.
- I do NOT have my cooldowns or I'm somehow hurt or gimped from an earlier fight. Something ELSE happened prior to people riding by that they didn't know about. And I lose. Well, now this was JUST as aggrivating as getting rolled by multiple creeps. Why didn't my side help...right???
- I DO have all the tools necessary to have a "fair" fight, BUT there are other CREEPS that come along and they blow me up. OH if only the freeps had jumped in earlier...not only would we have killed the first, we MAY have had a nice fun small group fight with the other creeps.
- I DO NOT have all the tools necessary, AND other creeps come along and smash me. Now I'm frustrated doubly...one for not getting the help, AND one for getting steamrolled.

With KoS at LEAST everyone involved knows the risks and knows the deal. Without KoS there's just too many unknowns to EVER insure that you're preventing the stress of feeling bad about the situation.

I will NEVER complain about getting beat, fair or unfair, based on what foes and friends are in the area of the fight. EVER. What I don't like is a> people going out of their way to fight me in a lopsided manner, and b> my own side going out of their way to insure that it ends up lopsided.

And I think if you really think about it, you'll see that "trying" to insure fair fights actually causes MORE heartache and stress than it prevents. I think as players we all want to rely on our side having our backs. But tacit collusion (don't know a better term for players who don't fight the other side when someone is getting killed in front of them) ONLY causes rifts amongst your own side.

It's not respect. It's game breaking. It's not respect, it's actually disrespecting the entire game.

The most respect I can show to my opponents is ALWAYS trying to fight and kill them.
The most respect I can show my team is to ALWAYS try to support and aid them.

It's the fundamental idea of the game.

Originally Posted by Anarionadama

I'm too lazy to go and check, but I think this is the 9th or 10th time I've posted this response about gameplay:



People are gonna play how they want, for their own reasons, regardless.
They do not care how other people play until it clashes with theirs and then everyone gets noble and philosophical to make themselves look good and be loved by all.


But you need the One Ring for that.

Although your point is not without a lot of truth...I'd add some caveats to it.

People will play how they know how to play...and by that I mean new players will VERY RARELY play in a way that isn't what people are currently doing.

If fightclubbing is the norm, players will consider it the norm.
If multi-boxing and self farming is the norm, new players will consider it the norm. (Note: our community was IMMEDIATELY and EXTREMELY vocal about this and it has not exploded in popularity like fightclubbing has)

People ARE influenced by other players, and by points of discussion that often initiate on the forums.

Everyone's gameplay is not dictated by their own internal motivations only. We the community DO impact OUR game. It's why Landy was great. It's why Landy can be great again.

Thanks for the posts Luc! I'll read them tonight when I have to go to bed,sleep will definetely kick in immediately.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Imagine if the wargs were playing something raid-useful like reavers or WLs...whole different ballgame then for sure.

Imagine if the minstrels were healing instead of all being in war speech.

I have heard all my life that there is nothing more obnoxious as a reformed drunk. I think we will have to add ex-war to that saying to bring it into the present times.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Imagine if the minstrels were healing instead of all being in war speech.

Ya, and imagine how much harder freeps in raids would be to kill then

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Ya, and imagine how much harder freeps in raids would be to kill then

LOL Oh you know it.

Jaiyne in healing or DPS mode is always an unholy terror.

Originally Posted by Aedon

LOL Oh you know it.

Jaiyne in healing or DPS mode is always an unholy terror.

I'll confirm the DPS mode portion of this for sure.

I had the opportunity to see that first hand the other day...It was a BA/Defiler combo and I thought it'd be a good fight with her at my side...I was all like, hamstring, rend, bubble, sinking into my usual routine of trying to stay alive and appy dps, and YEAAAAAHHHH, toodlelydoodleydoo YEAAAAHHH...they were both dead.

It was a serious "Why The Face" moment for me. I WISH I did that kind of damage. Amazing.

Yeah I didn't know that would get hash'd out so hence the edit...

With respect Lucybaby, you had a 2v2, and by your own admission blew up your opponents with ease.

That, may I suggest, is why you find fewer and fewer creeps willing to engage without either superior numbers, or a comforting cuddly pack nearby.

I can't speak for everyone, and this isn't exactly my view either, but nobody likes to be effortlessly exploded. They will soon be back, and in greater numbers.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Thane9

I'll confirm the DPS mode portion of this for sure.

I had the opportunity to see that first hand the other day...It was a BA/Defiler combo and I thought it'd be a good fight with her at my side...I was all like, hamstring, rend, bubble, sinking into my usual routine of trying to stay alive and appy dps, and YEAAAAAHHHH, toodlelydoodleydoo YEAAAAHHH...they were both dead.

It was a serious "Why The Face" moment for me. I WISH I did that kind of damage. Amazing.

Yeah I didn't know that would get hash'd out so hence the edit...

I not only know first hand Luc, I used to also watch Bean spar in 21st hall. She was a sight, kicking booty all over the place.

Leekae's locks were everywhere!!!
It was horrible.

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

With respect Lucybaby, you had a 2v2, and by your own admission blew up your opponents with ease.

That, may I suggest, is why you find fewer and fewer creeps willing to engage without either superior numbers, or a comforting cuddly pack nearby.

I can't speak for everyone, and this isn't exactly my view either, but nobody likes to be effortlessly exploded. They will soon be back, and in greater numbers.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

/sigh.

I think it's a testimate to how skilled Jaiyne is, and how powerful the Minstrel class in a DPS build can be in burst situations. I almost died and hardly contributed much other than being a punching bag beyond my aforementioned hamstring/rend.

I never said anything about "effortlessly exploded" or "blew up with ease".

But yeah, you can make this all about something that it's not if you want to. This is a perfect example of how people read my posts and interpret them the way they want to.

I can't believe it's not butter

I'd just like to point out that there is no evidence whatsoever that supports Luc's claims that "fight clubs" or 1v1 circles perpetuate higher renown/infamy gains and as such diminish the gains of those engaging one another "legitimately". This is simply an anecdotal assumption to exaggerate the "outrage" one might feel if they are against this sort of activity.

On my old server, Meneldor, every few months, and then less and less frequently, a particular player would organise an event we called "Thunderdome". It was essentially a few hours of "truce" between the majority of the server, where we would find a low traffic area (was candy mountain exculsively for a while but we went to other places too), and have 1v1's, 2v2's, 6v6's etc. These evenings were historically the LOWEST evenings of renown/infamy gain. Indeed, the player who organised it, didn't really play outside the event and remained rank7 for over 3 years. With leaderboards, surugi stats, and the blackappendage site, the gains of those involved are easily monitored.

Now, I know some of you will find issue with the nature of the example I cited, save it, you've made you views clear many times already in this thread. I'm not using it as a supporting argument to engage in that sort of activity, rather just pointing out that it is erroneous to assume that renown/infamy gain is positively skewed by these events.

My own personal experience is similar. I enjoy 1v1 circles every now and then, but I expect them to be broken up and have no hard feelings when they do. I find that I gain at least 2-3 times more renown/hour just by roaming, finding random 1v1's or joining other small scale or raid v raid fights, than I do just standing there waiting for someone to drum up the courage to fight me.

Whilst it may be true that in some individual cases, particular freep/creeps may be significantly exceeding their average daily gains, there is no reason to assume that this is the norm, in fact the opposite is better supported by evidence, they are the exceptions to the rule.

Anyway, sorry for the aside, back to the rambling....

Originally Posted by pibob314

I'd just like to point out that there is no evidence whatsoever that supports Luc's claims that "fight clubs" or 1v1 circles perpetuate higher renown/infamy gains and as such diminish the gains of those engaging one another "legitimately". This is simply an anecdotal assumption to exaggerate the "outrage" one might feel if they are against this sort of activity.

On my old server, Meneldor, every few months, and then less and less frequently, a particular player would organise an event we called "Thunderdome". It was essentially a few hours of "truce" between the majority of the server, where we would find a low traffic area (was candy mountain exculsively for a while but we went to other places too), and have 1v1's, 2v2's, 6v6's etc. These evenings were historically the LOWEST evenings of renown/infamy gain. Indeed, the player who organised it, didn't really play outside the event and remained rank7 for over 3 years. With leaderboards, surugi stats, and the blackappendage site, the gains of those involved are easily monitored.

Now, I know some of you will find issue with the nature of the example I cited, save it, you've made you views clear many times already in this thread. I'm not using it as a supporting argument to engage in that sort of activity, rather just pointing out that it is erroneous to assume that renown/infamy gain is positively skewed by these events.

My own personal experience is similar. I enjoy 1v1 circles every now and then, but I expect them to be broken up and have no hard feelings when they do. I find that I gain at least 2-3 times more renown/hour just by roaming, finding random 1v1's or joining other small scale or raid v raid fights, than I do just standing there waiting for someone to drum up the courage to fight me.

Whilst it may be true that in some individual cases, particular freep/creeps may be significantly exceeding their average daily gains, there is no reason to assume that this is the norm, in fact the opposite is better supported by evidence, they are the exceptions to the rule.

Anyway, sorry for the aside, back to the rambling....

Here's your proof.

#1

>In a fight club what % of fights end with one combatant running away and escaping? 0%
>In real open world 1v1 encounters what % of fights end with one combatant running away and escaping >0%.

Done. Proof.

Not good enough?

#2

>In a fight club how long do you need to "search" for an opponent? 0 Seconds. (In fact the REASON they're occuring in some of the highest traffic'd areas is to provide a fast run/back option so the fights can keep happening without delay or need to burn 5m cooldown maps.
>In real open world 1v1 encounters how long do you need to "search" for an opponent? >0 Seconds. (in fact FAR greater)

Done. Proof.

STILL NOT ENOUGH?!?!?

#3

>In a fight club what % of fights does one side get smashed by purposeful call-outs? 0%
>In real open world 1v1 encounters what % of fights involve purposeful call-outs? >0%

Do you want more???

#4

>In a fight club what % of fights involve the reduction of the renown rewarded due to the involvement of NPCs? 0%.
>In a real open world 1v1 encounter what % of fights involve the reduction of renown/infamy rewarded due to the involvement of NPCs? >0%.

These are ALL CLEARLY objevtively true. And only one has to be true to serve as proof that fighclubs provide an enhanced reward relative to the risk, or benefit to the cost if you prefer.

The funny thing is, you claim my comments about fightclubs are anectodal, then you use nothing more than your own anecdotal evidence to counter my claim. The reality is NOT about server wide numbers...those are always best gained in a raid zerging against another raid in a relatively static area for long term fighting. No doubt. The raid renown multiplier guarentees that.

What I'm talking about specifically is that the rewards are MUCH higher than the risks being undertaken. It literally breaks the game design and intent. It's collusion plain and simple.

The ONLY proof I see being played out here is that those who join Fight Clubs enjoy it. Their dime to enjoy, not yours. The rest of your argument is specious and circumstantial. Like I've said previously, I'm not anti-FCing. But I have tactical reservations about them being in prime locations.

I don't log into the Moors just so my infamy total can get higher. Yes, I like it when it does. Show me one player on either side who doesn't like getting inf/renown. The MAIN reason I log in is to have fun. I get that by socializing and hunting with friends and tribemates. From pitting myself against other opponents, not just on a skill vs. skill battle, but tactical and strategic levels as well. I have a blast trying to match wits with Vinny and other freep raid leaders.

So, if I'm out there for fun, I'm going to guess most everyone else is as well. Not for any of us to dictate what's fun for others, including you. However, this being a PvP zone, we also need to remember that we're all fair game.

-pup-

Easy on the walls of text Luc, everyone knows how you feel about fight clubs.

Personally, I could care less about them. Not my style of play, but to each their own.

There is no difference between a legit 1v1 vs a fightclub setup as long as the intentions were to fight a couple of times and leave. Now if it's over a prolonged period of time (x amount of hours), I would question the motives of the players involved - I would consider that collusion to exclude others on the server the opportunity to pvp in the manner that the game is designed. If it's for 2-3 fights, who cares?

As many have said, the fight clubs should be taken to out of the way locations. If they are in heavy traffic areas, they are fair game plain and simple. I would break them up as much as I would expect someone else would do the same. Having a fight club at TR HS (or any high traffic area) during prime time play is stupid and causes confusion for both freeps/creeps.

Really, it's not that big a deal - if you're worried about farming, infamy/renown, and comms gain - why don't you harp on the farming done by the Creepnami and Freepnami zerging that goes on. Seeing large amounts of infamy and renown gains on the usual zergery participants should get you more p'od than a handful of fight clubbers!

Originally Posted by tykoshi

...... However, this being a PvP zone, we also need to remember that we're all fair game.

-pup-

I'm embracing that fully from now on

Originally Posted by Nuth_KM

I'm embracing that fully from now on

I wouldn't expect anything less.

-pup-

Originally Posted by tykoshi

The ONLY proof I see being played out here is that those who join Fight Clubs enjoy it. Their dime to enjoy, not yours. The rest of your argument is specious and circumstantial. Like I've said previously, I'm not anti-FCing. But I have tactical reservations about them being in prime locations.

I don't log into the Moors just so my infamy total can get higher. Yes, I like it when it does. Show me one player on either side who doesn't like getting inf/renown. The MAIN reason I log in is to have fun. I get that by socializing and hunting with friends and tribemates. From pitting myself against other opponents, not just on a skill vs. skill battle, but tactical and strategic levels as well. I have a blast trying to match wits with Vinny and other freep raid leaders.

So, if I'm out there for fun, I'm going to guess most everyone else is as well. Not for any of us to dictate what's fun for others, including you. However, this being a PvP zone, we also need to remember that we're all fair game.

-pup-

We can make this strictly about fun then.

I find it TERRIBLY un-fun not being able to rely on freeps to have my back and engage creeps.
I find it TERRIBLY un-fun being called names, being argued with for long periods of time in tells, and basically being harrassed when I DO have my fellow freeps backs and engage creeps when/where I see them.

There. That's my argument from the "fun" side.

Originally Posted by CRUSHUC

Easy on the walls of text Luc, everyone knows how you feel about fight clubs.

This isn't some sort of personal vendetta against something I "don't like". This is me clearly demonstrating how it's bad for the game overall. It's selfish play for immediate gain, but it disrupts the entire design of the zone.

Originally Posted by CRUSHUC

Personally, I could care less about them. Not my style of play, but to each their own.

There is no difference between a legit 1v1 vs a fightclub setup as long as the intentions were to fight a couple of times and leave. Now if it's over a prolonged period of time (x amount of hours), I would question the motives of the players involved - I would consider that collusion to exclude others on the server the opportunity to pvp in the manner that the game is designed. If it's for 2-3 fights, who cares?

As many have said, the fight clubs should be taken to out of the way locations. If they are in heavy traffic areas, they are fair game plain and simple. I would break them up as much as I would expect someone else would do the same. Having a fight club at TR HS (or any high traffic area) during prime time play is stupid and causes confusion for both freeps/creeps.

Really, it's not that big a deal - if you're worried about farming, infamy/renown, and comms gain - why don't you harp on the farming done by the Creepnami and Freepnami zerging that goes on. Seeing large amounts of infamy and renown gains on the usual zergery participants should get you more p'od than a handful of fight clubbers!

I submit several hundred of my previous 11,000+ posts if you'd like to see my thoughts re: static, zergball gameplay further enhanced by the raid renown buff. And further broken by the lack of a fix to the distance bug that has existed in the renown/infamy calculation since day one.

I'd be happy to reiterate those opinions, but I think I've covered that ground...and then some...already.

Oh...and your argument of scale...it's an interesting one, but it's not really the real solution. See YOU determine 2-3 is ok. What about the next guy who draws his line at 5. Or the next who draws his line at 10. OR the fact that this is becomming more and more accepted and utalized througout the day. So when it was 4-6 people engaging in 2-3 fights each now it's 20 people engaging in 2-3 fights each. It WILL continue to grow.

Why? For all those reasons I listed above. The risk is lower than the reward. People sink to that lowest common denonminator.

They may SAY they "prefer fair fights" (whatever that means), they may SAY it's just 2-3 what's the harm, they may say lots of things that are all well and good. (And GREAT reasons for an arena to be implemented that doesn't reward renown/kill deeds)

But the reality is it's because they don't want to pay the "cost" of the full kill benefit. The cost of time finding a fight, the cost of the risk being out there alone not surrounded by a circle of people yelling at anyone who interferes, and the cost fo the risk of not getting steamrolled while attempting to fight.

I find it really funny how many people claim to 1v1 in the moors, but when they're caught in the open they just turn and run. Why is that? Because fightclubbing has become an accepted mode of competing.

Sad really.

Anyhow, I'm going to let this die now. I can't say I won't get pulled into talking about it ever, particularly when people start yelling at me for how I play...but I've presented my case.

I doubt people will change, if at all (although I know of at least one person who went from being a pretty strong supporter to seeing things my way) but I DO sincerely hope that we all consider how we play and how it affects new players. And how those impacts change the way the entire zone is percieved and utalized.

Landy was the undisputed best place to PvMP for a very long time, at least in my mind. Maybe it still is. I just want the good play to continue.

Frankly none of my posts have really ever been about anything more than that simple idea.

LOL Luc, are you serious?

IT'S A GAME!

Lighten up, play the game the way YOU want, and have pride in how you do it - don't worry about everyone else.

As with every game, there are some that will cheat, some will find short-cuts, and some will play by the rules. In the end, it's what YOU make of it and not what everyone else does.

I know you 1v1 alot, some will fight and some will run - it's the nature of the game.



ps. It's not 1v1 when YOU pull NPC's into the fight.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Oh...and your argument of scale...it's an interesting one, but it's not really the real solution. See YOU determine 2-3 is ok. What about the next guy who draws his line at 5. Or the next who draws his line at 10. OR the fact that this is becomming more and more accepted and utalized througout the day. So when it was 4-6 people engaging in 2-3 fights each now it's 20 people engaging in 2-3 fights each. It WILL continue to grow.

Why? For all those reasons I listed above. The risk is lower than the reward. People sink to that lowest common denonminator.

Here you seem to conveniently forget that the number of players on either side that will actually roam solo or actively seek out 1v1s is a minority on either side. Not an ideal situation, I know, but one that we know exists.

-pup-

Originally Posted by tykoshi

Here you seem to conveniently forget that the number of players on either side that will actually roam solo or actively seek out 1v1s is a minority on either side. Not an ideal situation, I know, but one that we know exists.

-pup-

I didn't conveniently forget anything...in fact I'm not sure how that fact even matters??

Yes, of course, solo players are and always have been and always will be the minority. It makes sense that they would be.

HOWEVER, the number of, and the duration of play, of the fightclubbers has been on a noticable rise. I doubt anyone would deny that.

Which is exactly my point. The REWARDS for the difficult high risk play are being reaped by more and more people who otherwise wouldn't accept that risk. We're seeing a surge of low risk, but high reward play.

Basically my whole point in a nutshell right there.

There is a "risk" of dying any time you engage an opponent.

Basing the quality/contribution of ones' gameplay to the server on whether or not they only roam the rarely-trafficked portions of the map is silly.

Metrics for evaluating "risk" and "reward" of gameplay based on guarantee of points is a bit silly. If you want to do that, why not add in a sliding risk scale also based on class/side/build played? If that's the case, roaming as a champion is inherently less risky than as many other classes, for example.

Fighting an opponent is much more rewarding (in terms of fun) than circling the map for the duration of your playtime and finding nothing; however, it does remove your ability to lament about not finding any fights at GIsen or the trees SW of POP (etc.).

Heh - there's been quite a few nights I've told the tribe I'm just out solo to hunt Lucybaby, and wargily waited at the usual positions.

Every time he's always been at TA. Maybe next time

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

I miss you Hithypoo!

Yeah I've not been on much - been busy with the good weather, and another game beta - but I will try to make it on more often.

Even when I am online, lots of tech support for peeps, hopefully all fixed soon and can get back to the important business of eating Freepies faces off and playing Identify That Chewed Organ with the puppies.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy