Thread: Bad freeps?, how about awful and disrespectful creeps?

Originally Posted by Gell

It`s a PvP zone dude , you stick around one area too long , someone WILL take you out , deal with it or just move to Candy Mountain. Move along.....

I get jumped more at candy mountain by scrub wargs while 1v1ing then at GTA/TR.

Originally Posted by crl13107

I get jumped more at candy mountain by scrub wargs while 1v1ing then at GTA/TR.

Really? I rarely go up there. Are there people actually patrolling that for 1v1s??

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Really? I rarely go up there. Are there people actually patrolling that for 1v1s??

This guy...

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Really? I rarely go up there. Are there people actually patrolling that for 1v1s??

I patrol Candy Mountain a lot. Never come on any 1 vs 1's up there. They are all at GTA or TRHS.

Originally Posted by Aedon

I patrol Candy Mountain a lot. Never come on any 1 vs 1's up there. They are all at GTA or TRHS.

There's 4 or 5 wargs the have killed me up there during 1v1s, the highest ranking one to do it was alpa who has done it 3-4 times(just to me), which i have lost all respect for because he uses the lamest excuses to cover anything that happens, which i have seen otheres compalain about recently in ooc, the last excuse he used on me was that we were farming toons when it was obviously a 1v1 between me and hireah because i was getting kited like a mofo and had to hips to even hit him once.

Anyway, the point is if there is 3-4 people at gta, w/e we get zerged, when there is 7 or so people on EACH side don't zerg it, just let it be. You all claim this is a bad spot to do it, if there wasn't an issue for the open raid leaders to let us be, there shouldn't of been an issue for you let us be. The way I see it is that the certain individuals who did it couldn't stand the fact they couldn't zerg solos around the map with 8-10 people, so they zerg the actual soloers at GTA over and over so they can force people to pvp the way they want to, which is one of the main reasons i left the moors which i came back because I thought it would be a nice 1v1 area scince it had been going on for hours, but once ago the same fail players proved themselves in my eyes by trying to force them to pvp the way they want to be, and this is worst then forcing people to fight at EC IMO.

I almost considered rolling 24man raid groups for the next week to prove that i can force pvp to be the way i want it to be, but i decided this would not be fair to the people who actually like to solo as the same people are slowly ruining the moors for the rest of the people who still come out to the moors..

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Luc, in this instance, there WAS NO PVP. Seriously, the raiders had rolled the map. The creeps had mostly logged. There was nothing to fight for the most part. I mean, maybe you would just go quest, but I wanted to fight someone; I don't want to quest in my PvP zone as the goal. EVER. It started, I barely got any fights because apparently my class is "so OP" that no one wants to fight it without 6+ and ironically, the fights I did get? I mostly lost. /epic

I'll correct you if I may. There was not enough PvMp for people who want constant action provided to them that they've grown accustomed to since the zergball became the norm.

I was out there. I was circling the map. I was finding occasional, and rare, fights. I would have found a LOT more if the people who were fightclubbing were instead moving around the map looking for fights.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Do you honestly believe these things go on all day and all night for "soloers?" Seriously? I roam the map just like you do. I get ganked probably more than you do even, lol. Who doesn't like to overkill the minstrel, amirite?

A few years ago, they didn't happen nearly at all. Now today they appear for an hour or so. They're happening with more and more frequency not less. And as they become the "respectful" way to fight out there and the accepted norm, yes, they will be going on all day and all night.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I'll tell you this. I win a TON MORE fights out in the open than I do in these little circles because I feel like I should fight with only 1/2 my skills or someone will log over and complain (meanwhile my opponents ALWAYS have every buff imaginable, lol). But when there is no fight on the map, I'm wanting to get fights - and lucky me, the type of player I like to fight the most? They're wanting those close fights too. That's where they were for a short time on a Sunday, on a blue map, before more folks logged on creepside so there could be better OPvP. Which there was when they logged on.

What you're describing is why I have a problem with it. It's all just false. You lose when you wouldn't. Players get fights with assured payouts (yes SOMEONE is going to die, which is not guarenteed or even common in open fights). People metagame in those situations because the situations themselves are metagaming. If I'm winning a fight and then I auto attack until my opponent catches up it's not a close fight. It's not a respectful fight. It's just messing with them, and the game, to make it SEEM like a close fight. And that kind of manipulation and metagaming, IMHO, is what is really disrespectful. Frankly, I'd rather get zerged than be in a fight like that, as the person with the edge or the person getting hit with kiddie gloves to have a chance.

I just don't see how it's good for gameplay to have these types of fightclubs, arranged fights, "respect fights" whatever people want to call them.

It can only hurt the overall gameplay IMHO, not help it.

But I get it. People are sick of the game. They're sick of how people play. So they take what they can get and then call it "better" PvMP.

I disagree with the idea that this is better PvMP, and even more I disagree with the idea that it's somehow disrespectful to break it up if you come across it. I wish I didn't disagree, it'd be a lot easier for me in a lot of ways. I like you, I enjoy playing with you, and I respect your position is different than mine. I just disagree.

Originally Posted by crl13107

There's 4 or 5 wargs the have killed me up there during 1v1s, the highest ranking one to do it was alpa who has done it 3-4 times(just to me), which i have lost all respect for because he uses the lamest excuses to cover anything that happens, which i have seen otheres compalain about recently in ooc, the last excuse he used on me was that we were farming toons when it was obviously a 1v1 between me and hireah because i was getting kited like a mofo and had to hips to even hit him once.

Anyway, the point is if there is 3-4 people at gta, w/e we get zerged, when there is 7 or so people on EACH side don't zerg it, just let it be. You all claim this is a bad spot to do it, if there wasn't an issue for the open raid leaders to let us be, there shouldn't of been an issue for you let us be. The way I see it is that the certain individuals who did it couldn't stand the fact they couldn't zerg solos around the map with 8-10 people, so they zerg the actual soloers at GTA over and over so they can force people to pvp the way they want to, which is one of the main reasons i left the moors which i came back because I thought it would be a nice 1v1 area scince it had been going on for hours, but once ago the same fail players proved themselves in my eyes by trying to force them to pvp the way they want to be, and this is worst then forcing people to fight at EC IMO.

I almost considered rolling 24man raid groups for the next week to prove that i can force pvp to be the way i want it to be, but i decided this would not be fair to the people who actually like to solo as the same people are slowly ruining the moors for the rest of the people who still come out to the moors..

This is what makes me nuts. Why should someone have to "cover" fighting the opposing force on the map? There's NOTHING wrong with killing creeps if you're a freep or killing freeps if you're a creep.

And Jaiyne, here's a perfect example, this 1v1 area was going on for HOURS....hours...of fighting that had to happen in a convienant place so people wouldn't have to use a 5 minute cooldown map or run. Imagine the renown/infamy payout then??? That's INSANE compared to the opportunities I get solo. Not to mention most opponents run or end up not being solo fights when I'm solo.

And yes, I'm SOLO. And people at these 1v1 "areas" are not soloing. They're fighting 1v1 but they're not solo.

It's all just silly.

Originally Posted by crl13107

I do agree that 1v1s shouldn't happen at key spots in PRIME TIME, but we were not at the map in, we were about 50meters north of it, and had been going on for hours and hours, so why should we have to move it when the fight club had been in peace for many hours, before prime time came?

GTA/BB is a major thoroughfare. Doesn't matter if you were 50m away. Groups move through there frequently. Also, I had been on for 3 hours before I even knew that was going on. Combat spam and such can send messages scrolling by faster than they can be seen, so don't count on them getting noticed.

Let me put this in the perspective of a raid leader, based on something that happened. I like to keep my raids moving. Raid came upon a fight club at TRHS. We didn't know it was going on (see above for why that can be missed). Once we realized it, we tried to pull the raid off the people FCing, but a lot of freeps went down before I could get it under control.

See, I TRIED. And, quite frankly, it's not worth ever going through that hassle again. I had unhappy responses from players on both sides. One side for breaking it up, the other side for trying to hold the raid in check. I'm not so sure I'm going to try and pull my raid off a fight club the next time, since I'm going to get grief either way.

Again, I see FC's as a fun event - I've participated in them myself, and I think they reinforce the sense of community we share. But sometimes...

-pup-

Originally Posted by crl13107

but once ago the same fail players proved themselves in my eyes by trying to force them to pvp the way they want to be, and this is worst then forcing people to fight at EC IMO.

By wanting to 1v1 in GTA , basically you are doing the same by forcing people NOT to pvp you , dude i like you man , but get over it , just get your 1v1 up to CM. you more likely to NOT be interrupted there as opposed to GTA where you have 2 close map in locations GTA / CGRIM.

Originally Posted by Thane9

I'll correct you if I may.

Luc in 2008, my very first night on creepside on my Rank 0 (now Rank 9) warg, I was in a fight club. I almost beat a hunter at Rank 0. In fact that very night in that fightclub led by Warginator, I got my first taste of 1v1s. Since then, I prefer 1v1s - and I prefer them to NOT be in fight clubs or in any way arranged (because yes, there is a lot about them that seem really false). But they happened, happen and will happen in the future. They have been happening since the beginning of Lotro PvP time.

And yes, we disagree. But, our playstyles are actually quite similar in a lot of ways. The main difference being, I am open to all types of playing in the Moors because IMO, you have to go with the flow or you're not going to have any fun.

As I type this, there is a freep raid out there and guess what's happening to me as the only soloer? Yeah...it's not pretty. But I take my lumps like everyone else and keep trying.

A fight club is kind of like kids skating at a park, there is no rules or antyhing like that, just kids skating to have a good time. Then the people who inturupt it is like a bunch of bullies across the street who aren't getting paid because less people are comming to their skate park, and your forcing them to come to their skate park. If the kids would rather go skate at the other park, or the open pvp field they are free to leave as they wish, no one is making them stay with the group of people who are staying amongst themself having fun.

Not inturupting a fight club is a respect issue, no matter where or when the kids go to the other park out of the way, its their choice on how to play, its the bullies choice to keep comming back and ruining everyone's day or let the kids have fun.

This will be me last post on this fourm unless Nyyx trys to troll me again :P

Originally Posted by Thane9

And yes, I'm SOLO. And people at these 1v1 "areas" are not soloing. They're fighting 1v1 but they're not solo.

I agree with this, btw. 1v1'ing in a circle is not "soloing"

I have to agree with Jaiyne about the idea of going with the flow and I would like to expand upon that idea because I agree with that philosophy of play in the moors.

There are so many different ways to play in the moors based on raid/group size, leadership style, tactics, organization or lack thereof all of these add a different flavor into the mix. Not all of the flavors taste that great sure but most of the aren't terrible and a lot of them are at least good in some way.

Specifically the 1v1 can be approached and experienced in a lot of different ways. To be as clear as I can about what I mean when I say 1v1 so as not to leave myself open to semantic arguments I will say that a 1v1 is:

When 2 players of opposing sides decide for whatever reason to only attack each other and at no point in time do either of them become interfered with by other players or NPC's in their attempts to attack and kill each other.

To attempt to illustrate my perspective on the different "flavors" of 1v1's I am going to name and list them here goes...

1. The Luc style 1v1: This is when a truly solo player runs into another truly solo player and they fight each other. No witnesses, no mercy.

2. The fight club: No matter if this is planned or it just develops this is when groups of opposing players all somehow of their own free will decide they will agree to a temporary truce in order to test their skills against one another 1v1 in a semi organized way.

3. The "I've got this" 1v1: This is when you are not running solo but your enemy is and you tell your buddies to back off so that you can engage your foe 1v1.

4. The "feel like a fight?" 1v1: This is when you see your enemy solo but you would like to give him the chance to be ready to fight you out of respect or just to maximize your challenge generally using the jumping up and down method of communication.

5. The "Oh this guy likes to 1v1": This is when you see a 1v1 happening and you decide to let it go out of respect for the players choice to engage in that type of play, assuming that interrupting it would not be what they would have you do. This is often how fight clubs begin.

From my perspective these 5 "flavors" of 1v1 cover most of what happens in the moors when in comes to a 1v1. Furthermore I think that each one of these offer a valid 1v1 experience although somewhat different they are mostly the same in that 2 combatants face off against one another and only 1 wins. (unless its a draw, which is awesome IMO)
I was going to continue on with this but it's long enough at this point.

Well, I may as well get my two cents in.
I don't like fight clubs. It has nothing to do with me being bad, I will attack anything on sight even if I know I'll loose. Which brings me to my point.

Why is it disrespectful to attack a fight club? Does it even occur to you that YOU are being disrespectful for not sharing, for lack of a better word?

Here are 6 plump, delicious looking freeps just standing around doing nothing. I have been prowling around for some time looking for something to chew on, and BINGO! Dinner is served! But no, dinner is reserved for a select few. What you are asking and expecting, is to be served special order food at a buffet. A really really bad buffet that smells wierd. If you don't like the buffet, too bad! It's what we are given.

Everyone always thinks "their way" is the proper way, and anyone who disagrees is wrong, or disrespectful.. pffft

Originally Posted by MorenaT

Well, I may as well get my two cents in.
I don't like fight clubs. It has nothing to do with me being bad, I will attack anything on sight even if I know I'll loose. Which brings me to my point.

Why is it disrespectful to attack a fight club? Does it even occur to you that YOU are being disrespectful for not sharing, for lack of a better word?

Here are 6 plump, delicious looking freeps just standing around doing nothing. I have been prowling around for some time looking for something to chew on, and BINGO! Dinner is served! But no, dinner is reserved for a select few. What you are asking and expecting, is to be served special order food at a buffet. A really really bad buffet that smells wierd. If you don't like the buffet, too bad! It's what we are given.

Everyone always thinks "their way" is the proper way, and anyone who disagrees is wrong, or disrespectful.. pffft

Good points Daizee. While I think it is respectful to do what you imagine another would wish you to do. It is not necessarily disrespectful to just do what you want, nobody's desires are trump.

so.. in the same context of it being a harsh, cold and dangerous world where you give no quarter and expect no quarter.. freep raids should be perfectly fine regardless and ganking that solo reaver in the slug pits is a-ok? Seems like there is tremendous duplicity in the forum in that it's fine for the goose but not for the gander.

Someone in another thread said that he/she wished for consistency. I do too. Be consistent .. in the moors and here. If you are banging your shield about how "don't control my pvp man" (said with the same style of "don't taze me bro" ) ... then accept the consequences and move on..

Don't cry about fraids, craids, cooldowns, pots, 1v1's .. call-outs..rez camping, green killing, bla bla bla... et al .. suck it up and kill/be killed.. because it really sounds like that's what everyone is espousing. And if that's the case .. let's rumble! :P

You just can't have it both ways

You all make really good points.

I think what it comes down to is this - and it's weird for me to say this but...

1v1 "circles" clearly create confusion. For the people not attacking, for the people breaking them up, and for the people involved when, after it breaks up, they get zerged again by the same people they were just "respecting."

I relish the opportunity to fight any creep in a 1v1 fight. I hope I will continue to find those "good 1v1s" (because I DO get a lot). I hope I will continue to find them organically. I'll fight whatever I can get. I think most of us would.

But yeah, it's pretty clear these things do create confusion at a minimum. To Daizee's point, one could even flip it around and say that the participants are being disrespectful as well. I can see how it could be perceived that way.

BTW with regard to consistency. It's tough to be consistent, isn't it? I'll use probably my favorite creep as an example, Gii. This guy runs around dying 100 times trying to get 1 kill before he gets blown up again. If I see other freeps around him, I probably won't even hit him. Why? Because I have my BEST fights in the Moors against him and other good reavers. I want more of them (there are not enough reavers). This may look really inconsistent if you're watching me then attack the creep farther away instead. But to me? I am being consistent with a player I really enjoy fighting.

I probably won't be consistent in someone else's eyes. But it's my choice when to attack and when to bow out for my own reasons. Clear as mud, yes?

Repeat of my past stance:

I am a scout. I am a Warg. I see, I pounce, I tattle, and I win, die or follow and harrass.

*IF* you must have those renown/infamy feeding session (which I am strongly against) then hold them either on Candy Mountian, or Southern Eagle Valley or all the way up the Western Wall near plains outpost. You may get run through now and then, but you are at least not in a well used path, or sensative area to report movement very often.

Honestly, I will not be happy with the whole feeding session as long as it grants renown/infamy. If it MUST be a part of the new Moors culture, then put in a pit trap near each factions delving entrence. Drops you into a large underground chamber where infamy/renown are inactive.

Just my take on it.

Originally Posted by Thane9

If I'm winning a fight and then I auto attack until my opponent catches up it's not a close fight. It's not a respectful fight. It's just messing with them, and the game, to make it SEEM like a close fight. And that kind of manipulation and metagaming, IMHO, is what is really disrespectful. Frankly, I'd rather get zerged than be in a fight like that, as the person with the edge or the person getting hit with kiddie gloves to have a chance.

I don't like this.

I'm confident in what I can and cannot do. If I come across a r1-3 reaver, I'm going to stay in melee, I'm going to use my 2 melee skills, and I might do my insta-cast bleed I can do on the move. I will rarely stun unless my melee crits.

Why on earth would I obliterate him using everything I have? Why on earth would I use Ents or lightening storm on this little guy? That's stupid. I don't want to teach him that he needs to hug NPCs. I don't want to teach him to be grouped 24/7 so he doesn't get obliterated. I want to encourage him to step out. He charged me, he didn't charge away. Good for him. And I hope he gets the kill while I'm gimping myself. It will encourage him.

Same with NPC ganking. If you are out here to PvP, why would you give yourself that ridiculous advantage? (especially as an OP Champ/Minstrel/LM)

Originally Posted by soccercake7

I don't like this.

I'm confident in what I can and cannot do. If I come across a r1-3 reaver, I'm going to stay in melee, I'm going to use my 2 melee skills, and I might do my insta-cast bleed I can do on the move. I will rarely stun unless my melee crits.

Why on earth would I obliterate him using everything I have? Why on earth would I use Ents or lightening storm on this little guy? That's stupid. I don't want to teach him that he needs to hug NPCs. I don't want to teach him to be grouped 24/7 so he doesn't get obliterated. I want to encourage him to step out. He charged me, he didn't charge away. Good for him. And I hope he gets the kill while I'm gimping myself. It will encourage him.

Same with NPC ganking. If you are out here to PvP, why would you give yourself that ridiculous advantage? (especially as an OP Champ/Minstrel/LM)

And when the warg pops you half way through the fight? You don't always know what you're in for...why artifically change the situation?

I don't want to falsely teach him that Champs have no skills but basic attacks. That's not only a disservice to him but also condescending and IMHO rude.

I played chess with my dad for 10+ years before I beat him, and when I did I knew it was because I played better than he did. Not because he was letting me win so I'd stay interested. Getting better and improving was what kept me interested.

I've NEVER understood the "take it easy on them so they won't be discouraged" mentality. If we're going to talk about respect, that's what is disrespectful. It's basically saying you're not good enough to really compete with me so I'm going to take it easy on you.

No thanks.

---

As for the fiction above about bullies at the skate park is so far off base I don't even know where to begin.

This isn't a skate park for your personal enjoyment. This is a COMPETATIVE game put in place for players to compete with other players. You enter, you are WILLINGLY subjecting yourself to that competition. You can't say, "No not me, I only want to fight this guy"

That's ridiculous.

The closer analogy would be joining a baseball league, getting up to bat then insisting they pitch to you underhanded. Just you. Because that's the way you want your pitches. You joined the league. You know it was a fast pitch league. But you're calling the pitcher and your team and the opposing team rude for not abiding by your wishes to have underhand pitches.

Silly.

Oh and one thing about consistancy. Because I do recognize that I'm pretty vocal about two styles of play that may seem to contradict each other.

1> Fight clubbing. I find this ruins the open PvMP nature of the zone and creates all kinds of bad gameplay situations and scenerios. Hence all the "disrespectful" threads left and right.

2> Zerging/callouts/map ins. I find this is poor gameplay because it's PURPOSEFULLY gaming the system to remove risk and heighten reward in a false manner.

But Luc, you say, you sound like a hypocrite...

And I'd say no, I would NEVER complain about running into a raid of creeps. I just find raids/groups that HUNT solos and specifically HIDE from groups that may prove a challenging fight to be poor gameplay at best. Add in stealth tracking and map-ins and there are some pretty griefy behaviours that can happen that aren't really about Open PvMp but more about metagaming to take advantage of smaller numbered forces.

Yes, it's a fine line between OOPS I just ran into a mess of creeps, and UGH they're out hunting me again refusing to fight anything risky. I get that. But it's a CLEAR fine line in my mind. Perhaps not everyone's...but mine anyhow.

Regardless....NONE of my play is EVER intended to be rude, or disrespectful. I'm not playing the way I do to upset anyone or to in any way negatively impact anyone. But I do feel compelled to play in a manner that makes sense to me...and honestly, I do apologize if that manner doesn't sit well with anyone else.

Good hunting out there all. No matter how you find it.

Originally Posted by MorenaT

Here are 6 plump, delicious looking freeps just standing around doing nothing. I have been prowling around for some time looking for something to chew on, and BINGO! Dinner is served! But no, dinner is reserved for a select few. What you are asking and expecting, is to be served special order food at a buffet. A really really bad buffet that smells wierd. If you don't like the buffet, too bad! It's what we are given.

Everyone always thinks "their way" is the proper way, and anyone who disagrees is wrong, or disrespectful.. pffft

I spit coffee all over my monitor screen when I read this.

Mmmmmmm, plump, delicious looking freeps!!!!


I have a couple of times stopped by the "fight club" circle to say hello to a couple of friends. Once in a blue moon I may engage in a fight, but then I move on looking for real prey. I do not like fight clubs, but I too recall Warginators arranged fights. The thing is though, Wargie did not hold them on a major map point.

I'll just say this.

I agree completely with every point Luc has made, and also the point made by Daizee.

If you folks want to fightclub, take it to Candy Mountain.

If you want to fightclub in heavy traffic areas, it will get intruded upon. I will see to it when I'm on.

Happy hunting.

Holy ####, I agree with Luc.

*buys a lotto ticket and waits for the lunar eclipse that now must be coming*

happened again just now at 3am est.


Apparently, these players "hate 1v1 circles"...

But in reality, if they came across any fight, I think they'd "hate" it.

These players rarely venture out unless they're all grouped up and have no risk of challenge/death/pvp

They want to break up the 1v1 circle because they want everyone to be grouped up at EC for ooc callouts and boring pvp.


EDIT: I don't really like 1v1 circles either; but the rationale of breaking them up is pretty lame.

Yeah it did get broken up but there was lots of good fights before it did. Nobody can expect these fight clubs to last very long. No matter what your stance is on the fight clubs the fact that people from opposite side ever bother to not just blindly attack and that there can be a temporary agreement based on a common goal is pretty cool. Also just as many creep stood by and did not take part in breaking it up as those that did and same goes for freeps. Fact of the matter is both sides come to the moors with very similar desires and motivations. If two opposing sides that have similar desires and motivations choose of their own free will to play a certain way together who can argue that it is not ok? By the same right who can argue that those who disagree with that choice can't choose another way to play.

Fell, where was the fight club at? Location seems to make a diffference. Couple that with the fact that it seems there's more action in the early morning hours (Eastern time).

Like I've said, I'm not anti-FC. But I will no long promise to leave them be if a raid I'm leading happens upon them at certain prime locations (e.g. GTA, TR Hotspot). Conversely, I'm not going to go out of my way to interrupt one that's being staged in a more out-of-traffic area like Candy Mountain.

The irony here is this is a drama that doesn't have to exist at all.

-pup-

Originally Posted by tykoshi

The irony here is this is a drama that doesn't have to exist at all.

-pup-

Perhaps, but it's VERY clear that this is becoming more and more and more prevalent as a means for people to earn renown/infamy.

Just as I predicted, once the bubble of acceptance was broken this would become a predominant playstyle for players to essentially farm renown faster than any OPEN PvMP mechanic would otherwise allow.

The "drama" in my mind is heightened by the brazen and obvious locations where people are choosing to play this way, but the root of it is still the fact that these players are ELIMINATING the risk of being solo to reap the rewards of solo kills.

Heck, if even 50% of the fights I engaged in while ungrouped and solo led to a 1v1 fight that played out to one of us dying and if I only won 50% of those, I'd be R15 right now. GUARENTEE it.

It's honestly a slap in the face to the people who have accepted those risks for years and played the game as designed and intended. As an OPEN PvMP zone.

Even away from the so called "circles" I'm noticing a HUGE upswing in people standing around and "letting the 1v1 happen". This is a TERRIBLE precident and I honesly hope that at some point our server realizes this and the culture will swing back to what the game SHOULD BE Creeps v Freeps.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Perhaps, but it's VERY clear that this is becoming more and more and more prevalent as a means for people to earn renown/infamy.

I certainly could be totally wrong here but I really believe that people are not doing these fight clubs to "farm" infamy. I know that I do not participate in them for infamy. I participate in them to test my skills versus another player.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Just as I predicted, once the bubble of acceptance was broken this would become a predominant playstyle for players to essentially farm renown faster than any OPEN PvMP mechanic would otherwise allow.

I would like to see some math on the idea that participating in a FC is the fastest way to gain infamy just declaring something with nothing to back it up does not make it true. I certainly don't win every fight I don't even win all the fights that I expect to win. Seems difficult to know with any kind of reasonable certainty that people participating in these FC's will benefit from winning matches consistently.

Originally Posted by Thane9

It's honestly a slap in the face to the people who have accepted those risks for years and played the game as designed and intended. As an OPEN PvMP zone.

When you say OPEN PvMP I take open to mean free, as in we all can play how we choose. Not too many people choose to always run solo, so your playstyle is different from many and that is ok. I find it strange that you tend to mention how the moors is an OPEN PvMP zone and throw around the term metagaming quite often. At the same time you want to tell everybody that your personal set of rules or at least a set of rules that you personally accept as being appropriate are the way they should also play. Any time you create a rule that does not exist in the game and follow it you are guilty of metagaming (personally I don't understand the negative connotation this word has developed). Any time you tell another player that they should not play the way that they want to and instead they should play the way you want them to you are going directly against the idea that moors is and OPEN PvMP zone.

I say everybody should use their free will to play the way they like. If you love FC's then have at it. If you hate FC's then break them up use your free will to shape the moors how you want it to be, nobody can fault you for playing the way you want to when they themselves are playing the way they want to. Please just quit telling people how they should play.

Originally Posted by Straste

I certainly could be totally wrong here but I really believe that people are not doing these fight clubs to "farm" infamy. I know that I do not participate in them for infamy. I participate in them to test my skills versus another player.

While other players stand around and don't interfere...this is collusion...it's optimizing gains...it IS increased renown/infamy.

Originally Posted by Straste

I would like to see some math on the idea that participating in a FC is the fastest way to gain infamy just declaring something with nothing to back it up does not make it true. I certainly don't win every fight I don't even win all the fights that I expect to win. Seems difficult to know with any kind of reasonable certainty that people participating in these FC's will benefit from winning matches consistently..

Easy. 100% of these matches pay out 100% of the renown/infamy to one or the other. In REAL solo play, many many many things get in the way of that full payout. In fact the MINORITY of fights end up in a payout. I should know. It's been my predominant playstyle for 5 years now. It's a MASSIVE benefit just being able to queue up fights one after the other. I can spend an HOUR easily riding around the moors before I get ONE solo kill, heck even ONE solo FIGHT...win or lose.

Originally Posted by Straste

When you say OPEN PvMP I take open to mean free, as in we all can play how we choose. Not too many people choose to always run solo, so your playstyle is different from many and that is ok. I find it strange that you tend to mention how the moors is an OPEN PvMP zone and throw around the term metagaming quite often. At the same time you want to tell everybody that your personal set of rules or at least a set of rules that you personally accept as being appropriate are the way they should also play. Any time you create a rule that does not exist in the game and follow it you are guilty of metagaming (personally I don't understand the negative connotation this word has developed). Any time you tell another player that they should not play the way that they want to and instead they should play the way you want them to you are going directly against the idea that moors is and OPEN PvMP zone.

Personally I cannot believe Open PvMP was designed with the idea of collusion in mind. Any and ALL game design in a competative game assumes players are competing against each other, not colluding together to play seperate mini-games that operate outside of their intended design. How can the developers design and build a game when the fundamental idea of Creeps VERSUS Freeps is not being upheld in play???

Originally Posted by Straste

I say everybody should use their free will to play the way they like. If you love FC's then have at it. If you hate FC's then break them up use your free will to shape the moors how you want it to be, nobody can fault you for playing the way you want to when they themselves are playing the way they want to. Please just quit telling people how they should play.

That's like saying in a game of baseball I should be able to run out of the dugout and tackle and hold the second baseman while my teammate steals the base. I should be able to play "the way I like"?

ALL games and the design of games assume basic ideas, such as people will play the game, not metagame outside of the intended way of playing. The lack of enforcement of that idea by Turbine shouldn't be the harbringer of FREE FOR ALL insanity. It should be a trust given to the players to do what is right.

Frankly if what you're suggesting was applied to ANY real life gaming experience I'd never play games with these people. It's only the internet and hiding behind annonimity that enables people to play these ways.

Originally Posted by Thane9

.....
That's like saying in a game of baseball I should be able to run out of the dugout and tackle and hold the second baseman while my teammate steals the base. I should be able to play "the way I like"?

......

while I understand and even agree with some of what you are saying, to try and equate playing PvP (and derivations thereof) in an online game to the game of baseball is a huge stretch. Here's the published rules of Baseball by the governing body (with the caveat of it only covering Major League Baseball and the leagues that are members of the National Association of
Professional Baseball Leagues): http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y20...ball_Rules.pdf

Show me the rules for PvP/PvMP in Lotro .. and therein lies the rub. There are none. Each player has their own set of rules as to how they self-govern their own play. We can hope/wish/pray/sacrifice baby wargs that others will play the way we want but that is a faulty premise since our desires are colored/subjugated by our own beliefs. And as much as I'd like to believe that everyone holds others wishes/desire in the same regard as their own .. ain't happening. Human nature kicks in and screws it all up.

Originally Posted by Thane9

That's like saying in a game of baseball I should be able to run out of the dugout and tackle and hold the second baseman while my teammate steals the base. I should be able to play "the way I like"?

That is a very poor analogy. Baseball has a complex system of rules that dictate what a group of people must do in order to score and win. The moors is more like this forum than it is like baseball. On this forum other than a small set of things we are not supposed to say, we can say anything we want. We can even make a silly analogy that anybody can see has no bearing on the argument at hand and nobody can stop us, sure it may be totally silly to do so but we are free to do it none the less.

Originally Posted by Thane9

ALL games and the design of games assume basic ideas, such as people will play the game, not metagame outside of the intended way of playing. The lack of enforcement of that idea by Turbine shouldn't be the harbringer of FREE FOR ALL insanity. It should be a trust given to the players to do what is right.

I agree that the moors has a design but I do not agree that your idea of what is intended is the only way we should be allowed to play or that you know better than I or anybody else "what is right".

Originally Posted by Thane9

Frankly if what you're suggesting was applied to ANY real life gaming experience I'd never play games with these people. It's only the internet and hiding behind annonimity that enables people to play these ways.

I think what keeps the moors alive when it exists in a game that obviously is not focused on PVP and seems to really not even care about the players that are focused on PVP is it's open-ended nature. Many other games have PVP with a more baseball-like system of rules that dictate how players must score and win (I.E. Instance battleground type PVP) but we are all choosing not to play them and I must assume that means we enjoy the freedom that this open PVP zone affords us. I think we are playing a real life gaming experience and what I've suggested about our freedom to play the way we choose is in fact self evidently already taking place or we would not even be having this discussion. I also believe my arguments are rooted in sound logic and I would have no problem saying them directly to your face. I have no choice but to interact with you from behind the tubes and wires of the Internets so to speak but I don't think that undermines my position

Originally Posted by Nuth_KM

while I understand and even agree with some of what you are saying, to try and equate playing PvP (and derivations thereof) in an online game to the game of baseball is a huge stretch. Here's the published rules of Baseball by the governing body (with the caveat of it only covering Major League Baseball and the leagues that are members of the National Association of
Professional Baseball Leagues): http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y20...ball_Rules.pdf

Show me the rules for PvP/PvMP in Lotro .. and therein lies the rub. There are none. Each player has their own set of rules as to how they self-govern their own play. We can hope/wish/pray/sacrifice baby wargs that others will play the way we want but that is a faulty premise since our desires are colored/subjugated by our own desires. And as much as I'd like to believe that everyone holds others wishes/desire in the same regard as their own .. ain't happening. Human nature kicks in and screws it all up.

There are no published rules for a bunch of people getting together to go play a game of baseball. That's my point.

In NO world would the other players EVER have little Billy join their baseball games if he decided to act that way even once. Let alone if he was adamant about his continued desire to act that way, AND his insistance that people who DIDN"T tackle the 2nd baseman for their runners were disrespectful to his enjoyment of the game.

ANY game assumes people are willing to play together under the auspices of fair play. Collusion with the other side and refusing to compete when given the opportunity are against that basic idea.

We were given a map in which to engage opponents in player versus monster player action...rather than killing scripted npcs we can fight other human players. Great! Until some people decide that they'd rather do that ONLY SELECTIVELY. Then it ruins the whole game. It ruins the design intent and it ruins the entire risk/reward or cost/benefit balance of the game.

I would propose if ALL those players who say they're just looking for good fights and a challenge, moved around the map solo or in groups and actaully engaged (either by trying to kill or trying to survive) in EVERY fight they found that the WHOLE gameplay experience for all would be raised to a new level. In fact, it's that exact idea that OPEN zones are based on, and honestly when it works it's a heck of a lot of fun.

There's no "you're disrespectful for barging in on MY kill"
There's no "why'd you just stand there and watch me die?"
There's no "I can't find anyone anywhere because they're all zerged up somewhere else fightclubbing"
There's no "why'd you call in 20 to fight a solo?"
There's no "you used skill X in a fight so you're just lame"

There would be interrupted fights.

There would be facerolls where large forces cross paths with small paths.

But there would also be a challenge to finding and successfully defeating your opponents. There would also be dynamic and VARIED play. There'd be uncertainty and risk. There'd be EXACTLY what PvMP should be, something MORE than NPCs.

Fight clubs are honestly as close as you can reduce PvMP to PvE. It's removing all the joy from OPEN PvMP and reducing it to "Can I kill this one toon with my skills."

Metagaming, be it zerging purposefully to remove risk, or rez circle camping, or calling in map-ins/airstrikes, or fight clubbing, or even feeding yourself with opposing side alts enmasse are ALL bad for the game. The REAL game is there if we want it...I'm calling on those human beings that I play with to try it out. You may like it.

Just as I would if I were heading over to the lot next door to have a pick-up game of baseball.

While I still take exception with your baseball comparison in that saying the word baseball automatically assumes a set of rules that are in no way analogous with the moors lack of rules. I do understand that you are saying PvMP assumes some idea of what goes on there and in that there is some basis for comparison. I also think that if we were to force everybody to play exactly the way you assume they should we may in fact have a more consistent quality PvP experience. What we would not have is freedom to choose to play the way we want to. Free will is a beautiful thing and I personally just have an aversion to someone trying to curtail my use of it. I see a direct parallel of how we are free to express out ideas on the forum and how we are free to play how we like in the moors. This certainly would be a poor debate if there were artificial restrictions on the manner in which we are able to express our ideas in order to fit them into "right or best method of expression". I hope you continue to play and speak in the best manner you see fit I know I will.
I really enjoy a good debate and I respect you Luc for being wiling to engage me in this debate.

Originally Posted by Straste

While I still take exception with your baseball comparison in that saying the word baseball automatically assumes a set of rules that are in no way analogous with the moors lack of rules. I do understand that you are saying PvMP assumes some idea of what goes on there and in that there is some basis for comparison. I also think that if we were to force everybody to play exactly the way you assume they should we may in fact have a more consistent quality PvP experience. What we would not have is freedom to choose to play the way we want to. Free will is a beautiful thing and I personally just have an aversion to someone trying to curtail my use of it. I see a direct parallel of how we are free to express out ideas on the forum and how we are free to play how we like in the moors. This certainly would be a poor debate if there were artificial restrictions on the manner in which we are able to express our ideas in order to fit them into "right or best method of expression". I hope you continue to play and speak in the best manner you see fit I know I will.
I really enjoy a good debate and I respect you Luc for being wiling to engage me in this debate.

I don't see this as a free will issue. When we engage in social behaviour, we are bounded by accepted social norms. In particular games have their own set of understandings. And even more specifically, competative games have an additional set of norms.

Which is where I bring up the idea of collusion once more. It's game breaking to NOT engage in competative gameplay in a competative game.

ALL the development, all the design, it's all thrown out the window if the player base decides to ignore that basic foundation of a PvMP game.

And frankly, all the angst, frustration and threads are a perfect indication that it's happening.

Originally Posted by Tanaga

Aug '11
Wow, I see the cranial diarrhea still rules the day with the Landi PvMp forum. Take 4 months to enjoy other servers and stick my nose in here, and this is the top thread, priceless.

When one steps back and looks at the train wreck this server's PvMp community has become, boggles the mind that some would spend countless hours pontificating to this special corner of the interwebz.

Summer of 2008, Agony and the Pwnies at their prime, those were the last glory days for this server. It will never be what it was. Luckily there are 11 servers, and they all play different - not going to get into better or worse, just that it is nice to have the ability to log in elswhere and forget about how far Landi's PvMP community has fallen.

Who knows what drivvel is going to be getting posted here when/if I check in 4-6 months from now. I'll bet more of the same.

xoxoxoxoxoxo

8 months later and still the same ol' same ol' cranial diarrhea.

I'll bet, in 4-8 months from now, a visit to this forum will still be lulz-worthy for the exact same reasons.
- Thx for the lulz, past/present/future.

Who's that^

Originally Posted by soccercake7

Who's that^

When did you start PvPing?

He played here a long time, just FYI

Anyone check the pulse on the horse yet?

-pup-

Originally Posted by tykoshi

Anyone check the pulse on the horse yet?

-pup-

</using best Scotty accent from Star Trek>

I think she 'av a wee bit 'o life left in 'er Cap'n