Thread: Stop XP

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

You can do the Moria instances at level 75. It will make the instance run faster, and you'll be in a better position to help kin-mates.

You may be able to do the instances at level 75, but you can't help kin-mates unless they're also at or near 75. When you're 75 and a kinmate is 50 (or lower for earlier instances) you can either take over and destroy the instance for them or leave them to struggle through it without you. Neither one of those qualify as "helping" them.

Originally Posted by Dol_Amroth_Knight

I've seen these threads occasionally, and while I'm not interested in the idea, I am curious - what happens if you change your mind and you DO want to level that character up but all the quests and deeds have been done?

Then you run a couple skirmishes and go up a level and another whole level worth of quests open up that you couldn't do before.

Originally Posted by ViriRinn

Reading your posts guys I picked up one theme - everyone (almost) always considers the thing from gamer perspective. I think I've seen only one post mentioning that DEVS want everyone to exp as fast as possible... For feature request to have even tiniest chance of being picked up and implemented, it has to have a solid business case for Turbine. It is obvious that they don't add things that would hit their bottom line.

They sell quest packs, don't they. That goes to their bottom line. With the current lightning-fast leveling everybody is forced into, people skip a lot of regions. We're essentially forced to skip regions unless we're willing to do them after they're grey, and many players don't like boring grey content. Giving people the ability to remain on-level with whatever regions they want to do gives them the opportunity to do more of them. Letting people do more regions is bound to lead to a non-trivial number of people actually purchasing more of them (or staying VIP longer to rent them).

Originally Posted by ViriRinn

I have the feeling that the best we could get is Store item that does something (reset xp to beginning of level, stop xp for some time, etc). That way Turbine could have this balanced, and adding this wouldn't be a big burden on game development (contrary to some proposals here).

It's hard to come up with a temporary buff item that would actually accomplish what people want. For instance, if someone wants to stay permanently at level 50, a "Stop XP for 30 minutes" item would be useless for that purpose, since as soon as the time is up they start gaining XP again and can't go back. I suspect that if it were a temporary Store item, most of the people who want it wouldn't find that useful enough to bother purchasing it. To be useful, it pretty much needs to be a permanent option that people can toggle on and off whenever they want. It's hard to tell, however, whether Turbine would make more money by offering that permanent feature as a Store sold feature, or by giving it to everyone and making their profit on it through the increased quest pack sales it would provide.

I paid 995 TP for a Premium wallet that should have been free but understanding the needs of really good well developed game like Lotro for a dependaple income stream I paid the price willingly because I chose to support the game through Subs and Microtransactions when it is something usefull.

Short term disablers I would find usless and would not purchase.
If the sold a Toggle for 1000 TP I would purchase it.

Hmmm I don't see how reducing XP would be something difficult to implement. Of course I don't know how the system internally works, but there got to be some kind of equation, like calculating enemy level with your level and maybe enemy type and other things to give you your final xp gain for that specifiv enemy. All that probably gets a multiplier of 1.0
When you have a +25% xp boost that multiplier gets set to 1.25. When there is a +100% xp boost like there was globally for the past days then the multiplier is set to 2.0. (Again I don't know, but this would be the most reasonable way to make it work).

So to reduce xp gain you would simply need to set the multiplier to something like 0.01 = 1% for original xp gain. So 300 xp turns to 3 xp per kill. Now for me that would be good enough in terms of xp disableing.

If you want to meet somewhere in between you could have an option or item to simply halve xp gain. That might even be the thing I would never turn off anymore.

I've also rarely seen items that increasy xp from quests. I'm pretty sure, where you can increase something you can just as easily decrease. No now technology needs to be implemented, no new code written.. simply change a number

Originally Posted by Smartig

Hmmm I don't see how reducing XP would be something difficult to implement. Of course I don't know how the system internally works, but there got to be some kind of equation, like calculating enemy level with your level and maybe enemy type and other things to give you your final xp gain for that specifiv enemy. All that probably gets a multiplier of 1.0
When you have a +25% xp boost that multiplier gets set to 1.25. When there is a +100% xp boost like there was globally for the past days then the multiplier is set to 2.0. (Again I don't know, but this would be the most reasonable way to make it work).

So to reduce xp gain you would simply need to set the multiplier to something like 0.01 = 1% for original xp gain. So 300 xp turns to 3 xp per kill. Now for me that would be good enough in terms of xp disableing.

If you want to meet somewhere in between you could have an option or item to simply halve xp gain. That might even be the thing I would never turn off anymore.

I've also rarely seen items that increasy xp from quests. I'm pretty sure, where you can increase something you can just as easily decrease. No now technology needs to be implemented, no new code written.. simply change a number

So far as I can tell, xp boost does not actually work on a multiplier, but is additive. Thus if you have the "+25%" xp item AND there is (e.g. recent) "+100%" xp boost, you don't get 1.25*2, or 250% more xp than normal, but 1+0.25+1 or 225% of normal.

The way I would see the xp disabler working would be as a "-100%" item, so you get 1+(-1)=0 xp per kill.

Then there are the issues of quest xp (would an xp disabler affect it, or would it be separate?), ixp (is it affected at all?) and cxp (could you gain crafting xp when an xp disabler is operating?).

In programming, things are very often far more complicated than it would appear on the surface. I can't even recall how many times I've gone back to a systems analyst who wrote a spec and said, "What do you want done in this case? You've covered other branch points, but not this one." It is very dangerous to do nothing and just drop the decision branch on the floor, unless that is actually intended.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I don't mind getting XP. It's leveling that is too fast (IMHO, of course).

Just let us buy an option to stop leveling.

I don't see how it would be bad to allow players to use it to skip by an area they hate. (Note: I love Moria.) The whole point of having alternative areas to level in is to let people take a route they like when leveling alts.

Being able to skirmish without having to skip by entire quest hubs or even zones is a pro in my book. I don't really get how anyone can think that would be bad?

I also think that being able to keep yourself at the same level as your friends/wife/husband will help with player retention. How many players have dropped out of the game because they can't play with their friends? The faster the leveling curve goes the easier it is to end up with a level gap that will make grouping too hard for one player or too easy for another.

Originally Posted by Niwashi

You may be able to do the instances at level 75, but you can't help kin-mates unless they're also at or near 75. When you're 75 and a kinmate is 50 (or lower for earlier instances) you can either take over and destroy the instance for them or leave them to struggle through it without you. Neither one of those qualify as "helping" them.

For this, I would prefer level-synching to stopping exp on a character just to help with events. Level-sync would allow you on any char at any level to sync down to the parties level. This was one feature that was implemented in FFXI that I loved and miss.

Why not use the Old leveling speeds for a switch.

Shadow of Angmar. The speed setup like it was in 2007 level 1 to 50
Mine of Moria The speed was setup like it was in 2008 Level 51 to 60
Mirkwood. The speed setup when Mirkwood was released. Level 61 to 65
ROI The speed setup as it is now. Level 66 to level 75.
No Rest XP.

People will still be foreced to level. But at speeds they liked. You can hit Loneland and Northdown and still do all the quests and it still a Challange.

Originally Posted by Anyelir

So doing Moria instances does not give XP? Don't you have to defeat enemies in those?

Yes, exactly. Parking a toon at lvl 60 to do instances indefinitely is not possible. A few instances into it and the toon will be 61. At times it seems like you can sneeze and gain 1 level.

Let's have the option to enjoy all the content that we've paid for, at the level it was designed for.

So glad that Turbine is putting some efforts into scaling old instances, though. Hopefully they'll have relevant loot so that loot-based players will want to play them. I don't see any groups forming for lvl 75 Annuminas and I assume that is because it doesn't offer enticing enough rewards. I'd like to run them with an on-level group for the fun.

Apparently, Turbine thinks it's not feasible within their technology. I'm not sure why; it works fine in EQ2. The only problem there is getting told, every single freekin' time you kill a mob, that you don't get combat XP because you turned it off.

But aside from technical issues, I'm entirely 100% failing to see why people argue against such a toggle. They really are the epitome of "if you don't like it, don't use it;" unlike "world pvp," I can't see a single way that someone else stopping their XP gain will adversely affect YOUR game.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

But aside from technical issues, I'm entirely 100% failing to see why people argue against such a toggle. They really are the epitome of "if you don't like it, don't use it;" unlike "world pvp," I can't see a single way that someone else stopping their XP gain will adversely affect YOUR game.

I agree. While I wouldn't use an xp toggle, I can see reasons why some people would and I'm willing to support the requests to get it.

The issue that doesn't get looked at much, though, are there enough people that want/will quit without it/will pay enough for it for developing it to be worthwhile for *Turbine*. Is it an effective use of *Turbine's* resources?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I have to say though, I'm completely against an XP toggle. I have no desire whatsoever to stop my XP. No matter what level you're at there is always on-level content if you really want it.

You're not supposed to do every single quest in every zone on your way to the level cap. There will always be some zones you have not completed. I never come back to do unfinished deeds and reputation gains until I've got my character at level 75 anyway.

When you're 75 you have access to more content and you can go back and do any lower-level content you want. If you want to go through a levelling process again, then start a new character.

But don't force a toggle that halts your experience gain upon other players like me. I certainly don't want an XP toggle and hopefully it will never ever be implemented into the game.

Originally Posted by whheydt

So far as I can tell, xp boost does not actually work on a multiplier, but is additive. Thus if you have the "+25%" xp item AND there is (e.g. recent) "+100%" xp boost, you don't get 1.25*2, or 250% more xp than normal, but 1+0.25+1 or 225% of normal.

The way I would see the xp disabler working would be as a "-100%" item, so you get 1+(-1)=0 xp per kill.

Then there are the issues of quest xp (would an xp disabler affect it, or would it be separate?), ixp (is it affected at all?) and cxp (could you gain crafting xp when an xp disabler is operating?).
(...)

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Well ok, I kinda feel you agreed with me even though you say I'm wrong xD. My main point was that the system of altering xp gain already exists and is heavily used, and I don't exactly see why you couldn't alter the numbers in a way that you receive less xp instead of more.

Now looking at what already exists in game, I would say that all different types of xp gain are independet of another. But just as it does kinda make sense to put a +25% xp from kill and +10% xp for weapons on a single item, it would make sence to disable xp gain from kills and quests on a single item.

Originally Posted by Ceremony

You don't want to level...no problem, don't quest...get to level 60 and stop questing, neglect that toon and just do moria instance. There you go.

I think the point is not that easy, I would like to do all the quests in game for level 30 for example, but after about 20 i will be level 33-34 and the rings start to fade away, it would be nice to do ALL the content on my main without the quest rings going silver. to take your time to level at your own pace.

This is not WoW, i would like to play without having to worry about out leveing a area in 10 mins, i think its a option that would set LOTRO apart from most games.

Sure you can argue this topic, most will be against it but i think its a great idea.

Originally Posted by whheydt

The issue that doesn't get looked at much, though, are there enough people that want/will quit without it/will pay enough for it for developing it to be worthwhile for *Turbine*. Is it an effective use of *Turbine's* resources?

While it's clearly both a different game & a different company, EQ2 implemented a variety of XP locks a long time ago, & I think we all know that EQ2 has never been the most financially successful or wildly popular of MMOs. I think there's at least some business precedent for it to happen.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

But don't force a toggle that halts your experience gain upon other players like me. I certainly don't want an XP toggle and hopefully it will never ever be implemented into the game.

There's no way to "force" such a toggle on you, because it's something that YOU have to decide to toggle on or off. Because of that, there's not one good "gameplay reason" to oppose Turbine implementing them.

The ONLY good argument against it, in fact, is entirely speculative: WHHeydt's comment, quoted above, regarding the "best use" of Turbine's resources.

Edit: sorry, just realized Livejazz posted the same thing in the post above mine. This post can be skipped -- nothing new here.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

I have to say though, I'm completely against an XP toggle. I have no desire whatsoever to stop my XP. No matter what level you're at there is always on-level content if you really want it.

You're not supposed to do every single quest in every zone on your way to the level cap. There will always be some zones you have not completed. I never come back to do unfinished deeds and reputation gains until I've got my character at level 75 anyway.

When you're 75 you have access to more content and you can go back and do any lower-level content you want. If you want to go through a levelling process again, then start a new character.

But don't force a toggle that halts your experience gain upon other players like me. I certainly don't want an XP toggle and hopefully it will never ever be implemented into the game.

Bwahahaha! Wait, are you serious?

This is like saying "I don't like the new cosmetic cloak offered in the store, please don't force the option to buy it on me!!" Or "I like Coke, don't give me the option to buy Pepsi!" Or "I like playing a hunter, don't give me the option to play a burglar!" ....

We're talking about the *option* to stop XP gain, nothing would be "forced" on you.

I don't see how it could possibly affect your game play unless it took a bunch of resources to develop at the expense of another improvement to the game -- now *that* would be an understandable, but speculative, argument against it.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

There's no way to "force" such a toggle on you, because it's something that YOU have to decide to toggle on or off. Because of that, there's not one good "gameplay reason" to oppose Turbine implementing them.

The ONLY good argument against it, in fact, is entirely speculative: WHHeydt's comment, quoted above, regarding the "best use" of Turbine's resources.

Of course this would be forced on players if it were ever implemented. You're talking about implementing a game feature that many people do not want and its existence wouldn't have anything but a destructive effect on the game. People need to be at the level cap or the max-level content would not be explored. The developers want you to be at the level cap so you can experience the *current* content they have worked hard to create, and the community wants more people to be at the level cap so that there are people to actually raid or pvp with.
The content that is below 75 is outdated and not meant to be treated as end-game content.

Originally Posted by sensyi

I think the point is not that easy, I would like to do all the quests in game for level 30 for example, but after about 20 i will be level 33-34 and the rings start to fade away, it would be nice to do ALL the content on my main without the quest rings going silver. to take your time to level at your own pace.

Why? You're not supposed to be able to do every quest on-level. Why does this bother you? On the 3rd character I levelled to 75, I started Dunland at level 68. By the time I got to Gap of Rohan she was 73 so and the mobs were white at that point, so it evens out anyway. No matter what level you are the quest content is the same. And the difference between 71 and 73 is very small, the mobs don't die that much faster with those 2 extra levels.

Originally Posted by Rasdun

Bwahahaha! Wait, are you serious?

This is like saying "I don't like the new cosmetic cloak offered in the store, please don't force the option to buy it on me!!" Or "I like Coke, don't give me the option to buy Pepsi!" Or "I like playing a hunter, don't give me the option to play a burglar!" ....

We're talking about the *option* to stop XP gain, nothing would be "forced" on you.

I don't see how it could possibly affect your game play unless it took a bunch of resources to develop at the expense of another improvement to the game -- now *that* would be an understandable, but speculative, argument against it.

EDIT: Well what worries me is that it's possible to accidentally toggle such a feature on. Or it could be enabled by default, which would be just like Turbine to do. It could even be hot-keyed to an easily accessible key by default, like the auto-focus was keyed to 'X' a while back.
If this is toggled on you don't necessarily notice it for a while, and I do NOT want to complete 20 quests only to find out I haven't received any XP.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

It could even be hot-keyed to an easily accessible key by default, like the auto-focus was keyed to 'X' a while back.
If this is toggled on you don't necessarily notice it for a while, and I do NOT want to complete 20 quests only to find out I haven't received any XP.

I'd have no problem with it being a feature you need to go into the Options screen to turn on/off. It's not something that should be set up in a way that it can be toggled accidentally (in either direction). There should also be some visual (though non-distracting) indicator on the screen to indicate that it's on, like maybe making the XP bar red or something.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Or it could be enabled by default, which would be just like Turbine to do.

On the other hand, since this proves you're not even pretending to be serious, I'm not sure why I even bothered with answering the other possibility.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Of course this would be forced on players if it were ever implemented

In EQ2, you have to right-click your XP bar, then select "disable combat experience," in order to toggle it on. It was never "forced" on anyone, precisely because of people like you who don't like the idea.

You're implying that Turbine is less intelligent & less competent than SOE. I'm not willing to accept that, so I'd appreciate it if you'd put up an argument I can take seriously.

Edit: BTW, please don't bother stating the obvious, that "this isn't EQ2," because doing so will demonstrate that you're not the least serious & have nothing to say.

Turbine did a survey a while back and in it they asked if folks would like an item they could put in their bags that would stop all xp from mob kills. They never said what the results were. From what the question said, it seemed like it would only stop xp from mobs but not from quests.

I support the option to let folks stop xp if they want. I've suggested it before and have supported other folks who have too. Since I've been seeing posts like this since the level cap was raised above 50, I doubt that Turbine will do it now. I would have thought with folks buying areas (in f2p) and then out leveling it too fast, that might have spurred them to come up with a slow/stop xp option.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Of course this would be forced on players if it were ever implemented. You're talking about implementing a game feature that many people do not want and its existence wouldn't have anything but a destructive effect on the game.

Based on what evidence?

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

People need to be at the level cap or the max-level content would not be explored.

What? That's ridiculous! Maybe it won't be explored 3 hours after it comes out, but of course it will be explored. Do you really believe Turbine wants us rush through all the content just to spend our time grinding a handful of "end-game" instances?

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

The developers want you to be at the level cap so you can experience the *current* content they have worked hard to create

Says who? Basically your saying the developers want the players to skip lots of content they developed, just so we can play the handful of end-game instances? I guess that's why they made some instances scale, huh? Think about it.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

and the community wants more people to be at the level cap so that there are people to actually raid or pvp with.

You don't speak for the community. If you want everyone at the level cap, that's your opinion, fine. Why force others to play the way you want?

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

The content that is below 75 is outdated and not meant to be treated as end-game content.

Outdated? What does that even mean? Is that why Turbine is making some of the old content scale, because they like wasting resources on outdated content? The Rift is one of the best instances in the game. How often does the balrog bug-out compared to Draigoch?

Of course it's not end-game content (anymore). Who cares? Some people want to experience the content at the level it was designed for.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Well what worries me is that it's possible to accidentally toggle such a feature on. Or it could be enabled by default, which would be just like Turbine to do. It could even be hot-keyed to an easily accessible key by default, like the auto-focus was keyed to 'X' a while back.
If this is toggled on you don't necessarily notice it for a while, and I do NOT want to complete 20 quests only to find out I haven't received any XP.

Those are valid concerns that Turbine's design should consider. The rest of your arguments are completely bogus.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

I have to say though, I'm completely against an XP toggle. I have no desire whatsoever to stop my XP. No matter what level you're at there is always on-level content if you really want it.

That's not an argument against the *existence* of a toggle. It is a statement that you wouldn't use it--and neither would I, but I support the existence.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Of course this would be forced on players if it were ever implemented. You're talking about implementing a game feature that many people do not want and its existence wouldn't have anything but a destructive effect on the game. People need to be at the level cap or the max-level content would not be explored. The developers want you to be at the level cap so you can experience the *current* content they have worked hard to create, and the community wants more people to be at the level cap so that there are people to actually raid or pvp with.
The content that is below 75 is outdated and not meant to be treated as end-game content.

You mean just the way that people are forced to:
Spar
Fellow
Join Kinships
Chat with people not in their kinship or on their friends list, or
Do PvMP?

*That* kind of forcing?

The only way your other points would come into play would be if *everyone* chose to halt their xp below--probably well below--level cap. If that happened, the Turbine devs would probably heave a HUGE sigh of relief. They would have the time an resources to go fix bugs and tune up all that lower level content instead of being in a continuous race to come up with new and tougher content for the "end gamers" to tear through in a very short period of time (and then complain that "there's nothing to DO!").

As it is, the best anyone can tell is that those who wish to actually *use* an xp toggle are a fairly small minority, which isn't an argument that they shouldn't have it, only that it may not be a high enough priority with Turbine to get the needed resource allocation.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Sigh...it seems people still do not understand.
Though Rift is, as you correctly assume, a level 50 instance, that doesn't mean that you HAVE to be level 50 to run it. Nor do you get any bigger rewards by doing it at level 50.
No matter what your level is, nothing changes:

- The bosses still drop exactly the same loot
- You have access to exactly the same deeds
- The instance still looks exactly the same

In short, the exact same content. Whether you're level 50, 75 or 85 you can still do the same things in that instance!

It doesn't freaking matter

Is it really so difficult to understand?

So why on Earth do people believe that missing out on an instance at level 50 is so terrible? It makes no sense! For crying out loud, being "too high level" doesn't limit your options, it increases them!

Originally Posted by Niwashi

On the other hand, since this proves you're not even pretending to be serious, I'm not sure why I even bothered with answering the other possibility.

Why is it that every time someone says something you don't agree with, it's not serious? I've explained why an XP toggle is a bad idea, and unconstructive responses like that are completely uncalled for.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

So why on Earth do people believe that missing out on an instance at level 50 is so terrible? It makes no sense! For crying out loud, being "too high level" doesn't limit your options, it increases them!

Some people set great store in doing quests on (or even above their own) level. They do this for a variety of reasons. I see no reason to claim that such desires are somehow "wrong". Different from the desires of others, but not wrong.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Guil1984

Since I've been seeing posts like this since the level cap was raised above 50, I doubt that Turbine will do it now. I would have thought with folks buying areas (in f2p) and then out leveling it too fast, that might have spurred them to come up with a slow/stop xp option.

There have been occasional posts like this ever since Moria came out, but lately there seem to have been a lot more of them, with a lot more people supporting them. I think all the leveling rate increases have added up to the point where it's not just a few outlier completionists getting annoyed with it. Though I expect it's still a minority of the playerbase, it seems to be becoming a more sizeable minority. (Or possibly, I've just been noticing them more lately.)

/signed
...

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Sigh...it seems people still do not understand.
Though Rift is, as you correctly assume, a level 50 instance, that doesn't mean that you HAVE to be level 50 to run it. Nor do you get any bigger rewards by doing it at level 50.
No matter what your level is, nothing changes:

- The bosses still drop exactly the same loot
- You have access to exactly the same deeds
- The instance still looks exactly the same

In short, the exact same content. Whether you're level 50, 75 or 85 you can still do the same things in that instance!

It doesn't freaking matter

Is it really so difficult to understand?

So why on Earth do people believe that missing out on an instance at level 50 is so terrible? It makes no sense! For crying out loud, being "too high level" doesn't limit your options, it increases them!

OK, from my perspective, you are the one who doesn't understand.

I can't speak for others, but I'm (mostly) in it for the challenge (and sense of accomplishment when completing the challenge) and there is a vast difference between doing a level 50 instance at level 50 versus level 75. Sure, it is the same instance, same bosses, same loot, etc., regardless at what level you go in. But it is definitely NOT the same experience, and for me, NOT the same level of enjoyment.

When I am at level cap, I hope to be in a raid group that is willing to continually try T2C raids. After countless tries, the experience of finally accomplishing something very challenging is what I would enjoy the most in this game.

I'd gladly pay TP to be able to sit at level 50 and beat my head against Rift with an on-level raid group until we are successful. Because, you see, I have been playing for less than a year and I wasn't around for the level 50 cap. To me the Rift is as shiny and new and exciting as any of the current level cap content. To go back at level 75 would really cheapen the experience for me.

The same is true when a lvl 75 joins a Moria instance, usually it turns it into a snooze fest. That'd be fine if all I cared about was getting the loot and "seeing" the content, but that is not the case.

I'm not sure if there are enough LOTRO late-comers or nostalgic old-timers that share this perspective to actually sit at level 50 to run the Rift in the same manner it was experienced when the cap was 50, but it sure would be nice to try it.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Sigh...it seems people still do not understand.
Though Rift is, as you correctly assume, a level 50 instance, that doesn't mean that you HAVE to be level 50 to run it. Nor do you get any bigger rewards by doing it at level 50.
No matter what your level is, nothing changes:

- The bosses still drop exactly the same loot
- You have access to exactly the same deeds
- The instance still looks exactly the same

In short, the exact same content. Whether you're level 50, 75 or 85 you can still do the same things in that instance!

It doesn't freaking matter

It matters a great deal. I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand.

Do you really believe that if you take your raid of level 75 characters into the Rift, you'll experience the same content?

I still have fond memories of the first time our kin took down the balrog. It was an intense and wonderful experience. We had probably tried 50 times or so. When he finally went down, we were all literally cheering over the voice channel.

Experiencing that at level 75 would be almost impossible. I suppose we could all downgrade our gear, remove any post-50 skills, and try to cripple ourselves so we could pretend we were level 50.. good luck with that plan.

I guess the part you fail to understand is, we don't want to do it for the loot, or just to "see it". We want to do it for the challenge.

One of my characters (along with a handful of members of my kin) is played in what we call "Iron Man" mode. If you die, you have to re-roll. We aren't allowed to use anything crafted, or any quest rewards. We can only use dropped loot items. It's a very different sort of experience. Even yellow items from trash mobs become valuable. But I guess you wouldn't understand that either...

Originally Posted by Beleg

It matters a great deal. I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand.

Do you really believe that if you take your raid of level 75 characters into the Rift, you'll experience the same content?

I still have fond memories of the first time our kin took down the balrog. It was an intense and wonderful experience. We had probably tried 50 times or so. When he finally went down, we were all literally cheering over the voice channel.

Experiencing that at level 75 would be almost impossible. I suppose we could all downgrade our gear, remove any post-50 skills, and try to cripple ourselves so we could pretend we were level 50.. good luck with that plan.

I guess the part you fail to understand is, we don't want to do it for the loot, or just to "see it". We want to do it for the challenge.

One of my characters (along with a handful of members of my kin) is played in what we call "Iron Man" mode. If you die, you have to re-roll. We aren't allowed to use anything crafted, or any quest rewards. We can only use dropped loot items. It's a very different sort of experience. Even yellow items from trash mobs become valuable. But I guess you wouldn't understand that either...

...
This is why it'd make an excellent toggle (pocket item perhaps). Game's a whole new world on-level
Maybe instead of or in addition to a Level to 75 pocket item in the next expansion we could get a halt experience item.. Then I wouldnt have to wait for them to scale everything or pick and choose which instances a character will see on level each time I make a new one.

Originally Posted by Beleg

One of my characters (along with a handful of members of my kin) is played in what we call "Iron Man" mode. If you die, you have to re-roll. We aren't allowed to use anything crafted, or any quest rewards. We can only use dropped loot items. It's a very different sort of experience. Even yellow items from trash mobs become valuable.

This is off-topic, but I love this idea. Do you have a specific goal (like completing the epic line) or do you just see how far you can make it?

To add a few other reasons (besides the thrill of a challenge, which I think Beleg described quite well) why doing the content over-level is not equivalent to doing it on-level:

1) I end up spending most of my time doing grey quests that require me to kill grey mobs. (And slayer deeds I deliberately hold off on until the mobs are grey, so that I'm not getting kill XP from them.) Class skill deeds, however, don't advance when skills are used against grey mobs, so I end up far behind where I'd like to be in earning my class traits.

2) When I eventually do get to end-game (or near-end-game) content, where there's a real challenge involved, I'm certainly not going to know my class very well if the whole time I've been leveling up I've only had occasion to fight wimpy mobs I could have killed with just an auto-attack.

3) Grey mobs don't aggro. At all. I guess this is back to being an issue of challenge, but it goes beyond simply the thrill of accomplishing something difficult. The actual content of what you're doing in a quest changes if the mobs aren't hostile. Lots of quests change from fighting or sneaking your way through a horde of enemies to reach a needed item into simply walking across a field and picking it up. Though the quest-givers dialog remains intact, it's not really the same quest.

Originally Posted by Rasdun

This is off-topic, but I love this idea. Do you have a specific goal (like completing the epic line) or do you just see how far you can make it?

It was a lot of fun, I highly recommend it! You don't have to use the "if you die, re-roll rule", but that does add a certain element of tension. I only had to re-roll once thank goodness, after lagging-out on my way from Stock to Quarry, and the bats got me hehe. Overall though I think it would work just as well without that rule. Maybe have some incentive to not die - like losing some of your gear. Re-rolling is no fun.

We also avoided taking the easy way out - we did a lot of orange+ quests. Most of them are not too hard, in a decent group. I was playing an RK, and I'm not known for playing a healer (to put it mildly). Knowing that if I didn't do a good job healing one of my friends might actually be gone for good, made it pretty exciting.

It has some of the same appeal as open-world PvP; it keeps you on the edge.

I don't think we had any specific goals really, we just wanted to level our new characters together. This was right after RKs and Wardens came out. We only played these toons when we were all on; basically once or twice a week at the most. We did the epic quest line - I think this was before the Inspired Greatness buff.

Really the game is so easy, with a few exceptions. Doing anything to make it more challenging helps I think.

We did consider allowing self-crafted gear, or gear crafted by someone else in the group (but not an alt). I think that could be okay, but I really liked just getting the yellow and sometimes purple drops. It's like the feeling you get when a raid boss drops something good, except it happens while you're doing regular quests and such.

And to get back on topic - an option to stop XP would have been great for our Iron Man group.

Originally Posted by Zephyriat

Is it really so difficult to understand?

Based on your response, apparently so.

Why is it that every time someone says something you don't agree with, it's not serious?

Because, in this particular case, you made a very dumb claim -- that such an XP toggle would be "forced" on players -- & apparently, you don't even think it was a dumb claim at all.

With that in mind, I'll do my best to ignore your further posts in this thread.

Originally Posted by Beleg

One of my characters (along with a handful of members of my kin) is played in what we call "Iron Man" mode. If you die, you have to re-roll. We aren't allowed to use anything crafted, or any quest rewards. We can only use dropped loot items. It's a very different sort of experience. Even yellow items from trash mobs become valuable.

Sounds like fun. I have a perma-death character (who I had to re-roll once early on after accidentally aggroing a signature warg in the forest near Combe). I never thought to add extra rules like no crafted or quest equipment, though. That could add a lot of excitement to the drops. It also sounds like it would be more fun with a group doing it together. (I've been soloing/PUGing my way through.)

Turbine conducted two surveys on an XP Disabler that I am aware of.

First, an online poll hidden behind an introduction that asked players to comment on end-game content in which about 1/3 said they would use such an item, 1/3 said they would support but not use such an item, and 1/3 said they opposed introducing such an item into the game.

Second, a poll of existing custumers of which a developer casually mentioned that few people said they would use such an item. However, we have no official report on responses, and the poll was made of existing customers. This has a selection bias - first in terms of exusting customers and second in terms of those customers who respond to the poll. It would be like asking attendees at the Republican Convention who they would support for President and concluding that Obama has the support of less than 1 percent of the population.

As a matter of economics, it does not matter that a small percentage of people want a feature. What percentage of softdrink customers drink cherry-flavored diet Dr.Pepper? Yet the market still supports it because the investment in its production earns a reasonable rate of return. The question of whether it would be worthwhile to build such a thing needs to compared to other game features such as a jar of fireflies at the Matham House, a new cosmetic item, a new emote. How many people actually use the Hobbit's mail bag and how much does it contribute to the game of those who use it?

Another matter of economics - people seem to think that Turbine can force players to purchase end-game content by denying them an XP disabler. This is about as foolish as arguing that Turbine can force players to purchase regional content by forcing players to complete every quest and deed to get to end level. The actual effect will likely be to cause that style of player to find the game frustrating and to go elsewhere. (Thus the problem with the second survey mentioned above.)

A third matter of economics - the real question to ask is not whether a given player would use an item, but if they would benefit from its use. Imagine a new player reaching the Shire and discovering a small group of hobbit roleplayers as Bounders willing to greet new players and help them in the world? Or players who have characters locked at level 25 that they use on missions into the Great Barrow? In these cases, the number of players who find more value in the game is larger than the number of people who would use the feature.

As for the fear of somebody losing XP and complaining, Turbine already has a way of dealing with this. It is the same way they deal with players who vendor items they wanted to keep, break the wrong legendary item, buy things from the auction house they did not intend to buy, sell things in the auction house for 100 silver that they intended to sell for 100 gold, spend special coins got from days of grinding an end-game quest on the wrong piece of equipment, and any of countless other mistakes a player can make. They send the complainer a quick message saying something to the effect that Turbine policy does not allow for correcting such errors. There is no reason to believe that an XP disabler will create a special problem in this regard.

Good to see this still cropping up! First requested after the FIRST speed up of experience years ago! The speed now is insanely fast in comparison to what we used to have and what made the game fun but still a challenge,
Yes to the critics, there are a lot of players who have always wanted to level at the pace the game was designed at, or to stop exp gain totally!

Economics and Usability are ultimately the end goal.

1st player (customers) need to WANT to use it. If you NEED to use it players will feel cheated and find another game. Example: the barter wallet, you don't NEED it but you sure do WANT it. For 995 Turbine points you can use it and Turbine is happy.

I can see an Exp toggle as something people would WANT but is it something they would pay for. I might pay to have this feature I might not it all depends on the cost. (Economics) I also see a simple Exp toggle as something that I would not use very much therefor I wouldn't pay much for it. (low usability, low price) Now if they had a way to bank the experience you were gaining so I could jump levels I would be more likely to use it and be willing to pay more for it. (higher usability, higher price)

One factor that I see in just stopping experience gain is that it prevents me from getting into higher level content sooner. What happens when I look my level at 50 because our kin is having fun on those levels then all of a sudden those players quit or I get tired of them and want to do Moria. I will have a lot of work to level up to 60 to do the Moria instances. Then what happens when my lvl 50 friends come back and want to do lvl 50 stuff. This factor deals with usability. How usable is the Exp Toggle now? Now if I had a way to go back to lvl 50 from lvl 60 or 75 that would be way more usable and pay a lot more for it. So then I can press forward into the game which is enjoyable while still being able to go back and play areas I've leveled through.

The biggest problem I see in this discussion from those who are for and against and Exp Toggle is the ability to play the game the way they enjoy. Those who like new content don't care for this idea because it will keep people from getting to level cap and playing with them. Those who enjoy on-level game play see all the stuff they are missing and want to enjoy that. Personally I am torn because I want to push on to end-game play but at the same time I don't want to miss stuff. The best solution for players would be to have something that provides both. Something that get players to end game and something that helps players play on-level.

For Turbine the best solution is one that people will be willing to pay for. They want to keep the end-gamers happy because they spend lots of money on new content store stuff. I don't see the on-level exp stopped player who is only using stuff they gather in-game or just questing with friends spending much more than a few TP to open a new area from time to time and playing it for a long time between purchases. They could possibly have one character they level up and a few they keep at level.

To satisfy all these things I propose additional character slots that you have the option of copying a higher level character and locking them in at a level of your choice. This way you can push through to end game and go back and play areas on-level.

This same idea could be used if there was a Exp Toggle because you could open a new Character slot, level to the level of your choice and then turn off exp. However the usability for this is decreased because it is harder to do. Fewer people are going to be willing to pay for a character and slot grind areas they have done before so they can have a guy stopped at lvl 50. Actually with the in-game TP they can earn the character slot might pay for itself, now only if you could stop your exp gain.

Originally Posted by BitzM

To satisfy all these things I propose additional character slots that you have the option of copying a higher level character and locking them in at a level of your choice. This way you can push through to end game and go back and play areas on-level.

You make some very interesting points. But I see a couple of issues with them.

First, although a copy of my character (at level 50 say) might be fun to have around, and it would let me experience that content 'on level', I don't like the idea of doing that on a different character (even if it is a copy). I'm a completionist; my main has done almost every deed and quest in the game. I don't really want to do it on another copy of that character necessarily.

Also, there's one factor of the economics you left out: the cost to develop the solution. A full-blown mentoring system (that would let me play my level 75 as if he were 50) might be wonderful. But it's quite likely that the cost to develop such as system would far exceed the cost to develop a simple XP Toggle. We don't know of course, but we can make an educated guess (based on mechanisms currently in the games) that the XP Toggle would be fairly simple.

If Turbine could come up with a way for us to easily (and temporarily) "downgrade" our characters, that would satisfy my desires. I could do the Rift as if I was a level 50. It wouldn't have to be perfect; it might even be as simple as a negative version of the Inspired Greatness buff. Decrease my stats/morale/power/etc, decrease my gear stats (dps/armor/etc), disable any skills I learned after that level, etc.

In some ways, it might be a lot easier to scale down characters than it would be to create scaling instances.

The one big issue is that the instance loot wouldn't change - so the only incentive to go back and do the Rift would be for fun, or to help your friends. That's incentive enough for me, but not for some people no doubt.

Scaling the instances has a lot of advantages - it basically makes all content 'end-game' content. It would be great if we could play every instance in the game, on-level, at the level cap. But it doesn't help those who are leveling up. It just makes them want to rush to the end game even faster.

So for me, I would love to see a way to scale-down characters. But since that's probably a lot harder than an XP Toggle, I would be quite happy with an XP Toggle first.

I'm a big fan of "scaling down" my character and I believe this would be easier and probably more profitable for Turbine than scaling all the instances. The nice part of scaling a character down is that it gives you more possibilities because if you are at level cap you are and can play equally with other level 75's even if all the instances were scalable. Having the ability to scale down your character would make whole areas challenging to play again, eliminate some of the need to make instances scalable (there are a ton in Moria) and give you tons more people you can potentially group with. Just think how many kinmates would be able to scale down and help you finish the Great Barrows quests on or near level.

I would pay good money to be able to actually play (on-level) with my main for all the content I have open. To bad the way it is set up we all loose the ability to play content of the game as intended with our characters as they shoot from one level to another with no way to go back or even slow it down. Most good games I know have the ability to play content again and again and still have the original challenge. (Think Super-Mario)

Again: Stopping Exp gain would be a great start.

Why complicate things....
This would require adjusting Virtues traits skills armour weapons etc and everything else to the appropriate level.
Time and resources invested into that by turbine would cost so much more then Just an XP Toggle.

Actually the XP Toggle already exists
IXP for LI's can be turned on and off and is the exact same thing as XP but for the weapon is even earned the same way through mob Kills.... The ability to do a toggle already Exists.

XP gain toggle exists at level cap when you reach cap XP Gain Stops. When Turbine adds more content and Raises the cap XP toggles back on.... The ability to do the toggle already exists.

The code is in place the desire is there.... Question is whats Turbines Problem.
Thier Problem is simple how can they best make money doing the right thing and giving those that want to stay on level longer away to do so and make money on what already exists.

I would pay for it also. If I can keep my quests all Orange it would be very cool.