Light of Elendil is one of those parts of the captain class that has never really been as useful as it should have been.
To remedy this, the spreading mechanics stay, but change what it does, so it's now modal based on what it's affecting:
Freep: PoT
Creep: -finesse
Light of Elendil is bestowed to the captain upon a usage of Blade of Elendil, and Defensive Strike will still restore some power.
To help cement it as a valuable part of the captain line, it also will need a few traits to support it. Rather than axe anything that would be useful, the banner traits should be rolled into banners to make room for three new traits.
HoH's trait (shamelessly lifted from another thread):
Originally Posted by furtim
Healing Light While you are affected by the Light of Elendil, your next Words of Courage loses its heal over time effect but restores 100% more morale. Using Words of Courage consumes your Light of Elendil buff.
Another alternative to the above is that WoC would do the improved healing all at once, instead of heal + HoT
LtC Trait: Searing Light
While you are affected by the Light of Elendil, your next attack skill does 50% more damage. Using an attack skill consumes your Light of Elendil buff.
OR
Shadows Lament will do 200% more damage to a target affected by Light of Elendil, but this will consume Light of Elendil on the target and the captain.
LoM Trait: Blinding Light
While you are affected by the Light of Elendil, your next Threatening Shout does 100% more threat, and affects 2 additional targets. Using Threatening Shout consumes your Light of Elendil buff.
Thoughts?
Last edited by Almagnus1; Apr 06 2012 at 11:54 PM.
I really like the idea of skill bonuses being tied to Light of Elendil. I would go one step further though. Why not have it enhance whatever skill is used after it and have a different enhancement for each skill.
Some thoughts: Does not affect battle ready, battle hardened or defeat response skills. Possibly raise CD of BoE to compensate for increased potency.
Words of courage: as stated before HoT is eliminated and added to up front heal.
Muster courage: grants 5 second stun immunity
Inspire: increased potency of HoT/PoT
Valiant strike: Increased range
Battle shout: debuff targets light mitigation
Defensive Strike: 5s 500 morale bubble
Sure strike: cannot miss, 3s root
Cutting attack: Larger bleed
Grave Wound: Threat leech from target's other attackers
Kick: reduces CD by 30s
One further idea, when traited in a capstone, add a small effect from using BoE.
HoH a short HoT or small 1 time heal
LtC 5s duration +1000 physical mastery
LoM small threat multiplier (maybe 1.1x or 1.2x) with short duration
LtC Trait: Searing Light
While you are affected by the Light of Elendil, your next attack skill does 50% more damage. Using an attack skill consumes your Light of Elendil buff.
OR
Shadows Lament will do 200% more damage to a target affected by Light of Elendil, but this will consume Light of Elendil on the target and the captain.
I think the bonus damage should be 50% as in the first suggestion but apply specifically to Shadow's Lament, Pressing Attack, and Devastating Blow. The latter suggestion would basically result in every use of Shadow's Lament doing +200% damage, or close enough to every use. The former suggestion would end up buffing Battle-Shout or Sure Strike as often as not, as opposed to our big DPS skills that would really produce a nice result from the damage multiplier.
LoM Trait: Blinding Light
While you are affected by the Light of Elendil, your next Threatening Shout does 100% more threat, and affects 2 additional targets. Using Threatening Shout consumes your Light of Elendil buff.
Here's a thought for healing light:
What if it automatically consumed all your HoT's on the target? That is, all of the remaining ticks of your HoTs would occur as one giant pulse of healing, in addition to the HoT on WoC.
Shadows Lament will do 200% more damage to a target affected by Light of Elendil, but this will consume Light of Elendil on the target and the captain.
I like your ideas, but the trait needs to be in the capstone or 4/3 trait line bonus.
I think that cause every trait line shoud have some thing that makes it viable in raid.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
I like your ideas, but the trait needs to be in the capstone or 4/3 trait line bonus.
I think that cause every trait line shoud have some thing that makes it viable in raid.
thought about that but mostly disagree..
most of the time we're traited 5x with 2 of another line. i doubt you'd bring the blue line trait while dps'ing or the red trait while healing. Maybe coudl make intresting use of it in a rainbow build.
also the fact that it would consume the Light of Elendil buff would make you probably not want to bring it for multiple traitlines.
anyway. really good idea to make loe useful. iw as of the opinion to just remove it.
LoE is supposed to provide a simple fellowship wide damage output buff. It's just that between it scaling poorely, ticking slowly, and not stacking it's not especialy useful. There's nothing wrong with the basic idea though. Just make it cuase all attacks to deal X amount of extra light damage, where X is = to a % of the casting Captains main hand damage.
LoE is supposed to provide a simple fellowship wide damage output buff. It's just that between it scaling poorely, ticking slowly, and not stacking it's not especialy useful. There's nothing wrong with the basic idea though. Just make it cuase all attacks to deal X amount of extra light damage, where X is = to a % of the casting Captains main hand damage.
On the other hand, adding in the traits does give the class a level of depth that it doesn't have already.
But I do agree that all Light of Elendils should stack - provided that doesn't severely OP the LtC trait.
Oh i understand where your coming from here, but A) i'm not sure LoE is where the focus should be as far as extra depth goes, and B) since it's a group wide buff, having somthing consume it as a basic trait isn't a great idea IMHO.
+200% damage to SL? uncritted and solo, mine hits for about 1.1 - 1.8k mob depending. adding 200% damage to this, and taking into account the big crit multiplier and the ability to reduce the cool down so much, is just ridiculously OP.
Davymarks list has some really nice ideas but what I would love to see is some more group buff things; captains buffing role is so boring, anything that makes it more proactive would be awesome.
for example, defensive strike could add a small amount of tact/phs mit to the group for 10 seconds, cutting attack could increase DoT potency of the fellowship by 10% for 15 seconds.. or something like that. Rather than self buffs, or just flat out healing/dps enhancements, I would like to see abilities that actually make us into a proper buffing class that has to think on its feet with the ability to utilise a whole host of situational skills.
edit:
this for example,
Originally Posted by DavyMark
Muster courage: grants 5 second stun immunity
there could be a trait that makes this work similar to a Warleader's 'snap out of it!' skill. this makes it a situational skill, and while not exactly a buff, it makes the captain's role a lot more dynamic. a possible 20sec CD is pretty OP, so I would suggest that the trait increases the CD to compensate.
Last edited by commanderjerkface; Apr 07 2012 at 10:23 PM.
Oh i understand where your coming from here, but A) i'm not sure LoE is where the focus should be as far as extra depth goes, and B) since it's a group wide buff, having somthing consume it as a basic trait isn't a great idea IMHO.
In all these suggestions, the buff is only being consumed on the Captain. Also, at present, the only thing the buff does is give a chance to apply the bleed whenever someone hits. Since the bleed doesn't stack, there's really no appreciable difference between one or six characters in the fellowship getting the buff on them. The bleed is really only good because it triggers Defensive Strike's power restore.
Nobody's saying that the current version of BoE is a bad skill. It's not. It deals good damage, it removes corruptions, and it lets Defensive Strike return power. But describing it as a "group wide buff" is not accurate, because the effect it applies to the fellowship doesn't actually do anything to buff anybody.
+200% damage to SL? uncritted and solo, mine hits for about 1.1 - 1.8k mob depending. adding 200% damage to this, and taking into account the big crit multiplier and the ability to reduce the cool down so much, is just ridiculously OP.
Considering that you must have both a Light of Elendil buff on yourself AS WELL as one on the mob, this isn't going to be a flat +200% damage boost, but something that's occasional. Also, to give this ability any consistency whatesoever, you must have the LtC capstone slotted, so you're already fairly deep into Red, so the trait is basically worthless without at least 4 other red traits.
The real question is how fast you can get the Light of Elendil onto the mob, if that's effectively as soon as you hit BoE, then yeah, that's too high of a percentage. If it takes a bit (like say, more than a couple of SL\BS => PA\DB => BoE skill chains), then it's fine, because that's only a couple of times a minute, if that.
Considering that you must have both a Light of Elendil buff on yourself AS WELL as one on the mob, this isn't going to be a flat +200% damage boost, but something that's occasional. Also, to give this ability any consistency whatesoever, you must have the LtC capstone slotted, so you're already fairly deep into Red, so the trait is basically worthless without at least 4 other red traits.
The real question is how fast you can get the Light of Elendil onto the mob, if that's effectively as soon as you hit BoE, then yeah, that's too high of a percentage. If it takes a bit (like say, more than a couple of SL\BS => PA\DB => BoE skill chains), then it's fine, because that's only a couple of times a minute, if that.
yeah i realise that.. but a 200% buff would still make this very OP.. think of the numbers you get on the last boss of the prancing pony skirmish! crazy. not that i would complain i just think 200% is rather steep
I like the ideas, just want to pint out that with those changes we would have to get some other more reliable power return or we end up with even bigger power issues. I know that light of elendil -> defensive strike isn't best way to get some power but it's better than nothing(actually with 50% chance it's quite nice if You use DS every time it goes off cd)
yeah i realise that.. but a 200% buff would still make this very OP.. think of the numbers you get on the last boss of the prancing pony skirmish! crazy. not that i would complain i just think 200% is rather steep
I don't think it's as big as you think it is.... If the range is assumed to be 1.1k - 1.8k, then the DPS from the procs would be:
x * 3 / 60
1100 * 3 / 60 = 55 DPS
1800 * 3 /60 = 90 DPS
Assuming it's 4 Shadows laments in a minute, that means a DPS range of 220 - 360 DPS.
As healthy of a DPS boost as that may be, you have to consider where this trait is within the line, and what the line is doing. To use this trait, you basically need to have at least 5 red traits because it's pointless without the capstone.
yeah it does not seem too bad when you put it like that
however, it is the crits i would be worried about. i have no idea how to work these things out, but at the moment i devestate around 3-4k on SL just going around solo. With 200% damage on the base attack, surely we are talking truly epic numbers here.. especially with the right relics and some dev proc gear!? I really would not complain at all about this, in fact i am drooling right now about the thought of one-shotting green dot creeps but to my simple brain it really seems like this would be too powerful!
always up for learning how these things work so any insights you can provide would be awesome!
yeah it does not seem too bad when you put it like that
however, it is the crits i would be worried about. i have no idea how to work these things out, but at the moment i devestate around 3-4k on SL just going around solo. With 200% damage on the base attack, surely we are talking truly epic numbers here.. especially with the right relics and some dev proc gear!? I really would not complain at all about this, in fact i am drooling right now about the thought of one-shotting green dot creeps but to my simple brain it really seems like this would be too powerful!
always up for learning how these things work so any insights you can provide would be awesome!
Throwing up an example:
Captain DPS is a slower paced DPS than a champ hit. So say if we hit only 3 times a minute (compared to 12 for a champion), and want to maintain 100 DPS, the champion can hit each time for 500 damage (500*12/60 = 100 DPS), whereas the captain needs to hit each time for 2000 damage to maintain 100 DPS.
On paper, we hit once and did 4 times the damage of an average champ hit, but in practice, the champ is hitting for only 500 damage, but at 4 times our frequency, so his DPS is actually better because a miss (or BPE) for the champ is an 8 DPS loss, whereas a miss for the captain is a 33 DPS loss, so arguably the champ is the better DPSer.
Taking the above into consideration, we need to hit harder than a champ, but do so less frequently than a champ does, so we can get our DPS up there - so amping something by 200% isn't all that bad, especially when the average crit chance most captains in a LtC build will see is 25%, so maybe one out of those four hits is going to be in the 9-12k range (so a DPS boost of 150-200).
Seeing that we have over 1000 DPS separating us from a champion, yes, it's a huge hit (and it will generate a lot of threat), but in the big scheme of things, if we're assuming four SL's that actually proc Searing Light, we're looking at a DPS range of around 315-470, which would put us at about 1.5k DPS best case scenario - still inferior to everyone else, but a lot closer than we were - AND we get a burst DPS tool.
Light of Elendil is bestowed to the captain upon a usage of Blade of Elendil, and Defensive Strike will still restore some power.
This should be a 100% proc chance, in it's current form it barely makes a dent in power consumption, even at a 100% proc chance the proc barely covers the cost of the skill.
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
To help cement it as a valuable part of the captain line, it also will need a few traits to support it. Rather than axe anything that would be useful, the banner traits should be rolled into banners to make room for three new traits.
Healing Light
Would this mean that you would be able to use WoC for the heal + the Hot Pushed up front on yourself as well? That would be a very nice change, our self healing would still be limited but in the moors at least we will be able to keep ourselves alive without a secondary healer in group.
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
Searing Light
Shadows Lament will do 200% more damage to a target affected by Light of Elendil, but this will consume Light of Elendil on the target and the captain.
This is nice, but it won't solve our severe lack of dps. I don't really know how to fix it to be honest. I was thinking that it could maybe unlock an high dps ability for us to spam. Maybe allow us to use SL x times in a row, that wouldn't unlock Dev Blow but allow us to chain the ability with itself. SL is a fast skill so it would create a rather large amount of burst while active and not be affected by our stupidly high attack duration.
For example after using blade of elendil we would be able to use SL with no cooldown 3 times in a row. These Shadow's Laments would not unlock devblow. This would be a higher increase to dps and would get less QQ from people being like ZOMG +200% outgoing damage OP.
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
LoM Trait: Blinding Light
While you are affected by the Light of Elendil, your next Threatening Shout does 100% more threat, and affects 2 additional targets. Using Threatening Shout consumes your Light of Elendil buff.
Well this would be good, but snap threat is a bigger issue with AOE tanking. This doesn't solve that problem, but helps with aggro later on in the fight. Captain tanking is such a mess right now though that I'm willing to take anything atm, so yes.
Captain DPS is a slower paced DPS than a champ hit. So say if we hit only 3 times a minute (compared to 12 for a champion), and want to maintain 100 DPS, the champion can hit each time for 500 damage (500*12/60 = 100 DPS), whereas the captain needs to hit each time for 2000 damage to maintain 100 DPS.
On paper, we hit once and did 4 times the damage of an average champ hit, but in practice, the champ is hitting for only 500 damage, but at 4 times our frequency, so his DPS is actually better because a miss (or BPE) for the champ is an 8 DPS loss, whereas a miss for the captain is a 33 DPS loss, so arguably the champ is the better DPSer.
Taking the above into consideration, we need to hit harder than a champ, but do so less frequently than a champ does, so we can get our DPS up there - so amping something by 200% isn't all that bad, especially when the average crit chance most captains in a LtC build will see is 25%, so maybe one out of those four hits is going to be in the 9-12k range (so a DPS boost of 150-200).
Seeing that we have over 1000 DPS separating us from a champion, yes, it's a huge hit (and it will generate a lot of threat), but in the big scheme of things, if we're assuming four SL's that actually proc Searing Light, we're looking at a DPS range of around 315-470, which would put us at about 1.5k DPS best case scenario - still inferior to everyone else, but a lot closer than we were - AND we get a burst DPS tool.
Thanks! I really appreciate the post.
As I thought, the increase in actual DPS is not so massive, but a dev of 9-12k?!?! Wow.. that is really something that probably wouldn't sit right with many people (mainly creeps I guess). imo it is a bit too 'spiky'!
As I thought, the increase in actual DPS is not so massive, but a dev of 9-12k?!?! Wow.. that is really something that probably wouldn't sit right with many people (mainly creeps I guess). imo it is a bit too 'spiky'!
Oh noes, captains can oneshot stuff and need to be actively watched now instead of largely ignored....
It must be 2012 cause it's the end of the world....
Oh noes, captains can oneshot stuff and need to be actively watched now instead of largely ignored....
It must be 2012 cause it's the end of the world....
not sure what the hostile, snarky reply is about when all i've done is be polite to you and try to open up the discussion... i hope you don't act that way IRL when someone has a differing opinion to you, because believe me it happens a lot, and replies like that get you nowhere
and here was me thinking there was someone on these forums capable of having a civil discussion. what a shame. oh well!
As I thought, the increase in actual DPS is not so massive, but a dev of 9-12k?!?! Wow.. that is really something that probably wouldn't sit right with many people (mainly creeps I guess). imo it is a bit too 'spiky'!
It won't be that high, if this is an additive increase (which pretty much everything is), it will only increase the tooltip damage by 100% rather than 200%. If you are getting 3-4k devs now it will be 6-8k devs if this were to ever go through.
not sure what the hostile, snarky reply is about when all i've done is be polite to you and try to open up the discussion... i hope you don't act that way IRL when someone has a differing opinion to you, because believe me it happens a lot, and replies like that get you nowhere
and here was me thinking there was someone on these forums capable of having a civil discussion. what a shame. oh well!
It comes from the basic feeling in the 'Moors that I am ignore until the Creeps start seeing me heal, then getting blown up after that happens.
If we had another reason to be targeted heavily (like, we're capable of DPS) it would be a far greater improvement than the usual "LOL it's a captain flailing at you! I hear it makes for a good massage".
Edit:
Snarkiness aside...
I doubt Searing Light will be very good in PvMP, because it relies on the captain getting Light of Elendil onto the creep before they can gamble with huge damage. I honestly don't think creeps will live long enough to transfer LoE so it can be consumed - but again, this all depends on how "easy" the buff/debuff is to transfer.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Apr 10 2012 at 05:17 AM.
It comes from the basic feeling in the 'Moors that I am ignore until the Creeps start seeing me heal, then getting blown up after that happens.
If we had another reason to be targeted heavily (like, we're capable of DPS) it would be a far greater improvement than the usual "LOL it's a captain flailing at you! I hear it makes for a good massage".
Edit:
Snarkiness aside...
I doubt Searing Light will be very good in PvMP, because it relies on the captain getting Light of Elendil onto the creep before they can gamble with huge damage. I honestly don't think creeps will live long enough to transfer LoE so it can be consumed - but again, this all depends on how "easy" the buff/debuff is to transfer.
some good points and i really like the idea from a pve perspective.
you are right about it in a moors raid situation, just in a chance 1 v 1 situation a skill that has the potential to massively outdamage (in spike damage terms, which is what matters in the moors) all classes apart from maybe a very well equipped runekeeper/hunter, could be almost seen as an 'i win' button, which was my concern. epic skills like this would widen the already huge gap between freeps and creeps. i can already pretty much take down most creeps 1v1 without breaking a sweat (apart from high ranked Defilers), which really should not be possible for what is traditionally a support class!
thank you for returning to the discussion, perhaps your computer was highjacked by an evil twin
Truthfully, I don't think it's going to be a problem in the 'Moors, and if anything, it should be something that the devs need to design around - why should a potential PvMP problem affect something that's just fine in PvE?
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Originally Posted by furtim
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i just think 200% is rather steep
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