Thread: Becoming less squishy in ToO

I've learned a lot by reading the burg forums and consulting with friends, but wanted to see if there's other advice on becoming a bit more sturdy.

I'm most concerned about ToO T2 and Saruman. I feel particularly helpless when MG and pots are on cooldown and I'm facing tactical damage.

My burg capped only 10 days ago, so I know some of the issue is higher virtues, better gear, and some muscle memory (my main's a LM and my fingers are still adjusting). I'm working actively on virtues and gear. I'm also trying my best to keep MG up and avoiding frontal aoes.

In case it helps, you can see my baby burg here: http://my.lotro.com/home/character/crickhollow/zado/
(the empty earring and pocket are U6 teal craftables)

I know this query is a bit general, but I'm curious if there is any other advice that people might offer in terms of rotations, tricks of the trade, or anything else. Thank you kindly.

There's a rarely dropping necklace from T2 Foundry, Gregolin, which offers a decent amount of tact mit, agil, vit and phys mastery, I swap it in when we get to Orthanc bosses.

Other than that, vitality gear, armour, tact mit virtues, that's pretty much it. I rarely use Glee, it does so little in comparison, it's kinda' pointless, meanwhile keeping the trick up has much greater value for the group IMO.

If your build sacrificed vitality for agility, that's a problem, I remember raid advice from years ago posted in these forums, burgs in raids are primarily buffers/debuffers, not DPSers, we increase the overall group's damage so much just by being there, take that to heart, also you can't do your DPS if you are defeated. So enough vitality/+morale to have a decent morale pool and not take excessive tactical damage.

The armour sets and typical jewelry provide more than enough agility nowadays.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

A lot of the damage in Saruman is tactical, I know you said you were working on virtues, traiting up your tactical mit will help, as will getting the taccy-mit necklace from Foundry. The only other thing I can say is to have more morale than you think you need. I've noticed that burgs have some of the lowest morale pools now (though many get gear and other things to boost their morale), which is fine for small groups and most solo things but in Saruman you really feel it. While you can evade the both the attacks from the clones and the aoes from Saruman himself, do not rely on being able to do so.

My biggest problem in Saruman is the Storm makers, specifically their polarity attack, which can kill me with two good hits. Their other shock aoe is less bad but can still take off half my morale, and if central Saruman throws an aoe my way at the same time, I'm dead. To counter this, I've developed a paranoid irrational fear of the storm makers and I refuse to go near them. Well, not really, but I am very wary of them and fight them on the diagonal and spend a lot of time backing away when they raise their staffs.

Other than that: stay out of puddles, don't fight things head on, pots and MG all the time, disable everything.

A first step may be for the burg to be able to survive a Pits of Isengard run. There are so many burgs that I have pugged with for PoI that die quickly in that instance.

Items such as Gregolin, Haul-Tager, Sarchol, there's a pocket item from the skirmish camp in the Annuminas jewellery that give 1k phys/tact/resist rating.

Virtues such as Fidelity, Tolerance and Honour can also help.

the burg is more likely to die than the RK, the healer or the tank. It is comical running ToO and seeing the class that use to come to these forums and make jokes bout the "burg rez" and out living the raid being the first shoe to drop. The class has come so far

Originally Posted by Piff

A lot of the damage in Saruman is tactical, I know you said you were working on virtues, traiting up your tactical mit will help, as will getting the taccy-mit necklace from Foundry. The only other thing I can say is to have more morale than you think you need. I've noticed that burgs have some of the lowest morale pools now (though many get gear and other things to boost their morale), which is fine for small groups and most solo things but in Saruman you really feel it. While you can evade the both the attacks from the clones and the aoes from Saruman himself, do not rely on being able to do so.

My biggest problem in Saruman is the Storm makers, specifically their polarity attack, which can kill me with two good hits. Their other shock aoe is less bad but can still take off half my morale, and if central Saruman throws an aoe my way at the same time, I'm dead. To counter this, I've developed a paranoid irrational fear of the storm makers and I refuse to go near them. Well, not really, but I am very wary of them and fight them on the diagonal and spend a lot of time backing away when they raise their staffs.

Other than that: stay out of puddles, don't fight things head on, pots and MG all the time, disable everything.

all of this combined with the DNFtX and AOE fire damage is why you are better off with RK DPS in this wing and in the fire and frost wing. A RK should have 0 chance of taking any of this damage and he can help the captains and champs take almost 0 too.

I am going to down fire and frost t2 chalange soon and I can tell you one thing, there will be no burg in my raid, nor will there be one for saruman t2.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I am going to down fire and frost t2 chalange soon and I can tell you one thing, there will be no burg in my raid, nor will there be one for saruman t2.

good luck with your DPS without a Burg...

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

the burg is more likely to die than the RK, the healer or the tank.

If the Burg dies most - what should Hunters say? Burgs can avoid aggro better than all other classes, and if the pull aggro there is a good chance to stay alive for at least 30s (T&G)...

Shut up with your Burg-mimimi...

the Burg is the best DPS-Class in Ortanc if you could Fight in Melee-Range because is is on a DPS-Level with Huters and Champs (>2k DPS) while Increasing the DMG all others do a lot; he can avoid Aggro and is the only DD which could go all-out from the beginning of a Fight without the risk to die from aggro...

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

good luck with your DPS without a Burg...



If the Burg dies most - what should Hunters say? Burgs can avoid aggro better than all other classes, and if the pull aggro there is a good chance to stay alive for at least 30s (T&G)...

Shut up with your Burg-mimimi...

the Burg is the best DPS-Class in Ortanc if you could Fight in Melee-Range because is is on a DPS-Level with Huters and Champs (>2k DPS) while Increasing the DMG all others do a lot; he can avoid Aggro and is the only DD which could go all-out from the beginning of a Fight without the risk to die from aggro...

looking through those burg goggles? When these 2 wings are downed the group make up will be lacking burgs. I'm just saying maybe the same old way of pounding the nail aint working. Time to try a diffrent tool.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

all of this combined with the DNFtX and AOE fire damage is why you are better off with RK DPS in this wing and in the fire and frost wing. A RK should have 0 chance of taking any of this damage and he can help the captains and champs take almost 0 too.

I am going to down fire and frost t2 chalange soon and I can tell you one thing, there will be no burg in my raid, nor will there be one for saruman t2.

It's only Saruman where I've had a survivability problem, in the other wings there is no problem and I'm certainly not the first to die. My gear and virtues aren't perfect, there's still a lot of work to be done. Funny thing about those champs and cappys though, last run, they died first.

FaF is near impossible due to bugged damage effects right now, regardless of your group makeup, unless you want to go packing four minstrels and two rks just to keep your other six alive.

I wanted to thank those of you who gave helpful advice. Here's to some good stabbity stabbity.

I think he is right for saruman. Our best runes where without burgs, because they eat to much rezzes as a medium armor melee class. DPS seems doable without them. I think too that the first kill at saruman will be without burgs.

If your burgs are dying then they are building for too much agility and not enough morale/mitigations. Burgs can have 8k morale unbuffed and 2100+ agility while keeping good mitigations. Thats plenty of survivability and DPS.

When you take into account the +10% raid wide damge increase AND the raid wide +6% crit chance increase AND the burgs very nice DPS a burg adds more single target DPS to a raid than any other class in the game. If you could beat the fight without a burg then you could have beaten it faster by swapping out a DPS slot for a burg. The more burgs you stack the faster you will beat the fight. I wish you luck on being the first group in the world to beat either of those fights if you dont understand how to maximize your raids DPS.

Originally Posted by Mystarr

If your burgs are dying then they are building for too much agility and not enough morale/mitigations. Burgs can have 8k morale unbuffed and 2100+ agility while keeping good mitigations. Thats plenty of survivability and DPS.

When you take into account the +10% raid wide damge increase AND the raid wide +6% crit chance increase AND the burgs very nice DPS a burg adds more single target DPS to a raid than any other class in the game. If you could beat the fight without a burg then you could have beaten it faster by swapping out a DPS slot for a burg. The more burgs you stack the faster you will beat the fight. I wish you luck on being the first group in the world to beat either of those fights if you dont understand how to maximize your raids DPS.

I think you don't try saruman t2.

A couple of the wings probably necessitate a little less of a glass-cannon build (Saruman, F/F) but other than that, survivability isn't really an issue IMO.

In Saruman, save Glee for immediately after either Polarity or the big AoE Frost hit. I use Subtle Stab constantly to maximize self-heals. I find myself less squishy than Hunters or any light armor class without question.

As said, Gregolin is a good piece to have as well as high Fidelity and Tolerance. If you're getting nuked regularly, you need higher mits and morale. That whopper DPS build doesn't mean a thing to a dead Burg. Gotta find the balance...

Originally Posted by Mystarr

If your burgs are dying then they are building for too much agility and not enough morale/mitigations. Burgs can have 8k morale unbuffed and 2100+ agility while keeping good mitigations. Thats plenty of survivability and DPS.

I would really like to see an example of the above. My morale is around 7,2k, based on a vitality around 650-ish, and various +morale boosts. And I'm not able to get my agility higher then 1,4-1,5k, without loosing out on morale, migration (which is low enough as it is imo, around 25% tactical migration, physical even lower), or power.

Thats wearing 5-set Ortanc, self-made Great River jewellery, and a decent second age dagger.

It's been said before, but Tact Mit and resistance are the key things to worry about. With my high values (8276 Tact Mit & 4985 Res), I barely take any damage in these fights...

And btw, I usually tank one of the Sarumans in T1. Reason being simply that the tank can't hold aggro on my target because he's not getting BPE responses and I'm unleashing hell...

I disagree with the idea that Burgs won't be involved in the downing of T2C Frost & Fire, but I think that such a burg is going to be involved in perhaps a different-than-expected way. I think he'll be in Mischief Maker stance, and will be helping out with mass aoe DITE/Stuns and mezzes....

Also, Glee is really, really important, and not just because of Matt Bomer on Tuesday's episode... hah. I use Glee pretty much constantly in fights to help keep my own morale up. Just make sure you use it when your trick is off cooldown, and you'll be fine.

Originally Posted by KSoze

I would really like to see an example of the above. My morale is around 7,2k, based on a vitality around 650-ish, and various +morale boosts. And I'm not able to get my agility higher then 1,4-1,5k, without loosing out on morale, migration (which is low enough as it is imo, around 25% tactical migration, physical even lower), or power.

Thats wearing 5-set Ortanc, self-made Great River jewellery, and a decent second age dagger.

http://my.lotro.com/home/character/1...9613006486557/

Originally Posted by Mystarr

http://my.lotro.com/home/character/1...9613006486557/

Thanks. I were not able to see the jewelry, not sure if its mylotro thats acting up, or my browser. I'm not sure if I'd say that your gear was "easy" to acquire tho, the first age dagger and necklace must have required both time and a decent raiding kin.

One question tho: How is the power regen with that setup? Say you were in a 6-man instance without cappy or LM

Originally Posted by KSoze

Thanks. I were not able to see the jewelry, not sure if its mylotro thats acting up, or my browser. I'm not sure if I'd say that your gear was "easy" to acquire tho, the first age dagger and necklace must have required both time and a decent raiding kin.

One question tho: How is the power regen with that setup? Say you were in a 6-man instance without cappy or LM

The jewelry you cant see is the vagabond set from the great river map. (For some reason none of the great river gear seems to show up in LOTRO My Characters.)

Some of the gear is hard to get but I was posting in reponse to people saying burgs cant be useful in Saruman T2. I assume a burg in Saruman T2 runs will be in a raiding group and have access to pretty good gear. Except for the necklace you can get jewelry that will give almost the same stats without setting foot in ToO.

Earring: One earing from great river rep grind

Earring: One of the new crafted earring (63 agil/337 morale/672 phys mast/336crit) is arguably better than the skirm earring I am using

Pocket: From river rep grind

Ring: One of my rings is from river rep grind

Ring: My other ring is from the moors (need rank 6) There is also a VERY good agility/morale ring that drops from the rift skirmish (122 agil/323 morale)

Wrist: One wrist is from a 12 man skirm

Wrist: My other wrist is from ToO, but there is a very nice river crafted one (122 agil/162 morale) Its better for morale/agility

Neck: The teal barter neck is almost the same as mine (except for agility) There is also a very nice tact mit necklace that drops in the foundry

Cloak: T2 pits challenge (Many burgs prefer the draigoch agility cloak)

Misc: Make sure you put the new +27 agility/beleraind damage scroll on your weapon and the +27 agility/tact mit (or evade if you prefer) scroll on your bag.

Power: I almost never have power issues since RoI. Before RoI I gulped down power pots like crazy. Since RoI Ive probably used less than 15 power pots total. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that DPS is so high now that things dont live long enough to be a drain on power. I have +44.3% glee on my bag and I spam glee about every 20s. I also almost always have power regen food going.

Originally Posted by Mystarr

Power: I almost never have power issues since RoI. Before RoI I gulped down power pots like crazy. Since RoI Ive probably used less than 15 power pots total. I think a lot of it has to to with the fact that DPS is so high now that things dont live long enough to be a drain on power. I have +44.3% glee on my bag and I spam glee about every 20s. I also almost always have power regen food going.

Big thanks for that detailed list; I think this even answered the OP's original question :-).

You have a good point regarding power and dps; I've assumed that since I run out of power, I need bigger regen. But since the power usage is constant (skills cost the same regardless of regen), boosting the dps might be just as viable.

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?

u6.1 changed the facts! so there will likely be burgs on the downing of saruman t2.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

u6.1 changed the facts! so there will likely be burgs on the downing of saruman t2.

The change will come with Update 7. I doubt that a burglar will be in the raid if a kill happen before the change.

Originally Posted by Burio

The change will come with Update 7. I doubt that a burglar will be in the raid if a kill happen before the change.

what change is this?

Originally Posted by Reillan

what change is this?

less big aoe.

Huge nerf to lightning saruman. That was the one that killed the burgs and everyone else. The instance may even be easy post update?

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

less big aoe.

Huge nerf to lightning saruman. That was the one that killed the burgs and everyone else. The instance may even be easy post update?

Oh nice... yeah, the aoe damage there is nuts, so I think that'll be a nice change... but I think a large part of it is people not doing the fight the way it was intended... I could say more but... not gonna...

even so, my burg has enough mitigations that the aoe damage doesn't usually kill me... the place where it gets worst is when trying to fight the lightning boss in phase 2 I believe, and you can't get close to him without taking damage when his aoe gets off, regardless of your positioning... still, I survive the attack as long as I'm full before it hits.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

looking through those burg goggles? When these 2 wings are downed the group make up will be lacking burgs. I'm just saying maybe the same old way of pounding the nail aint working. Time to try a diffrent tool.

just wanted to save this for posterity since the world first (or at least the first posted to the progression thread) Saruman T2 CM kill group had 2 burgs

(yes, yes, I see he hedged his bets above, but I'm still loling )

got FF challenge down to 120k lastnight with 2 burgs as well, NO rks lawl

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

all of this combined with the DNFtX and AOE fire damage is why you are better off with RK DPS in this wing and in the fire and frost wing. A RK should have 0 chance of taking any of this damage and he can help the captains and champs take almost 0 too.

I am going to down fire and frost t2 chalange soon and I can tell you one thing, there will be no burg in my raid, nor will there be one for saruman t2.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

looking through those burg goggles? When these 2 wings are downed the group make up will be lacking burgs. I'm just saying maybe the same old way of pounding the nail aint working. Time to try a diffrent tool.

1st saruman t2c = 2 burgs
1st F&F t2c = 4 burgs

Originally Posted by Feomalo

1st saruman t2c = 2 burgs
1st F&F t2c = 4 burgs

whoever trusts ifreborn1 after all his statements (especially to the burg-class) must be very very mad...