Thread: Fast Loader

Ok, I have been disgruntled with FL for some time and today I am looking for feedback.

LM trait - Fast loader - removes induction and prove a scaled decrease i BF resistance.

1. Removes induction - BFD, the induction is 1 sec. Not a gain there in my opinion, I just do not feel any big savings.

2. Scaled decrease resistance - I can remember possibly 3 times BF has been resisted and all 3 were on trash in ToO runs. And I have been bringing FL to all ToO runs and retrait for the boss later.

This seems to be a very pricey trait to slot for what I see as marginal gains. Now if FL reduced Lighting Storm from 3 secs to no induction, that makes sense. As is it is a 2 part skill to fire already. Maybe if it 1/2ed or removed all induction on 2 - 3 skills (CE would be another) it would make more sense. We cannot shoot on the run like a few other classes, so this would be nice.

So, I am just looking for some feedback on FL. Any agree or disagree? As is, I see it falling off the selection list unless someone can see something I do not.

Whenever u got some enemies on you and try to mezz one, you will realise how useful Fast Loader can be.

It's not that good in raids cause you don't get many setbacks there, but at soloing or in smal fellowships FL is can be pretty useful. I think it's more useful than Study of Firelore.
There are more situations on which you think: "FL saved my life" than "Yeah we survived just because of 5% higher missrating!"

I just don't like Study of Firelore. 5% miss is nothing and it's too random. Not worth equipping over Fast Loader.

My 5 AM-traits are usually: Secret of Tar, Study of Windlore, Study of Frostlore, Power and Wisdom, Fast Loader/Deep Lore depending on situation.

Also, when something inevitably goes wrong and a mob gets loose before it's supposed to, you'll notice that 1 second induction because that one second is all a troll needs to beat an extra three people to death.

Must-have trait when you really want something mezzed. Resistance is nice ofcourse (although we got Finesse to help out with that now), but instant cast is great when things don't go according to plan. If your target breaks out for whatever reason, or isn't in range from the start, it makes the difference between having your target in the middle of the AoE ball or nicely away in its corner.

Originally Posted by Ingaras

Must-have trait when you really want something mezzed. Resistance is nice ofcourse (although we got Finesse to help out with that now), but instant cast is great when things don't go according to plan. If your target breaks out for whatever reason, or isn't in range from the start, it makes the difference between having your target in the middle of the AoE ball or nicely away in its corner.

Agreed, its a must have for raiding if you are planning on mezzing. As for the moors.... if you are trying to mez more than for interrupts i PvMP you are probably doing something wrong. Mezzing in the moors is pretty much useless b/c of DR and audacity. The only place mezzing is useful in the moors is if you are not traitted MONF. If that is the case, you should be in Bree hanging out in the Prancing Pony.

In a hard fight that one second is all the difference between a wipe and a save (Say a new troll agros on a mini (or you). Would you rather let the mini or yourself take a hit or just instantly deal with it and done back to the battle) . And for lore masters who already have long inductions. That 1 second you spent using blinding flash could have been used for starting the induction of one of our other skills.

Considering being hit sets back inductions if you see an add coming in the corner when you already have mobs on you its a lot nicer to be able to insta maz then need to worry about set backs doubling the induction time.

And as ingaras said. That 1 second induction is far long enough for the to be mezzed mob to get way to close to the actual battle and risk a AOE waking it up. Or for that mob to be able to stun you and interrupt your induction or land 1 more hit on your fellows.

FL isn't always needed. But in some fights, that 1s makes all the difference. I was having trouble soloing the LL dailies, but once I swapped to FL, things changed. FL+MoNF=victory.

The resistance bonus is good too. I've seen burgs with 6k-8k finesse miss their riddles in ToO. I've only got 4k finesse, but have missed only once (hopefully, I didn't just jinx myself).

If you're soloing and find yourself jumped by a group of mobs, it's nice to be able to stun something without getting your induction pushed back. But in groups it's not a big deal if you're keeping an eye on your mez target since the tank should be keeping guys off you. If you're planning on group material, I'd go for Fire-Lore or something over this.

Originally Posted by Tatuaje

This seems to be a very pricey trait to slot for what I see as marginal gains.

Its not marginal gains. Rather, its dependent on how you fight, and what you are fighting.

If are ever trying to interrupt an enemy induction, whether its immune to daze or not? Fast Loader is a must. Otherwise, it can be likely you'll throw your Blinding Flash too late.

If you ever get stuck in a Fellowship and need to hold down two targets with Blinding Flash by yourself? Fast Loader again becomes a must, as that 1 second will feel like a lifetime as one of the targets mez wears off and starts moving while you are trying to go through the induction.

If you go for the Stun -> Daze -> Stun -> Daze approach while in MoNF mode while dealing out damage? Again, that Fast Loader is a must. You can Daze something that has its temp Stun Immunity, thus making that Blinding Flash worthwhile. Even if its only 5 seconds (more likely the 2 seconds where it can't break on damage), it buys you a couple more seconds till you can stun the creature again. Further, it lets you know that the skill will launch instantly, rather then worry about induction knock-back. (I like combining mine with the Eagle rather then Ents, to toss on a Fear as well in the mix).

That said, do I always carry Fast Loader around? Nope, my current norm for soloing is just 5 MoNF + 2 KoA (Light of Hope and Improved Flanking). I only put on Fast Loader when I know ahead of time I need it.

I hear what some of you have said... I guess for my play style it just isn't there for me. I rarely have issues mezzing what I want - when I want it. I just do not notice a 1 sec savings. With adaptation in a majority of the wings on the trash making it useful once on some mobs.... Bleh, just not a slot I want to waste any more.

As to the Moors, I just BF out there to irritate the creeps, I really never expect it to do much unless they are trying to run away, then it may allow a champ or burg time to get in and DPS.

Fire Lore, while the 5% does not sound like much over 5 targets and when stacked with other debuffs becomes much more attractive to me than slottong BF. A possible combined 25% miss across the group of mobs is better math than a 1 sec save.

As usual, definitly more than 1 way to play an LM. It has to be the single most interesting class in LOTRO to play.

Originally Posted by Tatuaje

A possible combined 25% miss across the group of mobs is better math than a 1 sec save.

It remains 5% less hits with a high amount of randomness. Study of Firelore isn't worth one equipping (for me). -5% Meleedmg + 5% miss that would be worth a traitslot. The difference between traited and untraited firelore is... is there any measurable difference? The difference is very very very very very very small and too much depending on luck.

Mobs dealing 1-10000 damage and 5% random mean an attack with 1 damage can miss and the 10000 attack does hit.
It's just not reliable. Study of Windlore gives 3% miss (gust of wind) and another measurable bonus lower ranged damage, that's why I prefer it.

Always have this slotted for raiding. For Shadow T2 1s can easily be the difference between a mob being mezzed safely near it's door and it getting into AoE range, for example.

Originally Posted by Tatharil

It remains 5% less hits with a high amount of randomness. Study of Firelore isn't worth one equipping (for me). -5% Meleedmg + 5% miss that would be worth a traitslot. The difference between traited and untraited firelore is... is there any measurable difference? The difference is very very very very very very small and too much depending on luck..

I like the trait. Untraited, mobs miss 2% of attacks with fire lore. Traited, mobs miss 7%. While 7% feels small, it's usefulness depends entirely on the number of incoming attacks. Of course, the trait isn't very useful when you're fighting a few mobs that die quickly.

But in a raid, you can potentially apply this debuff on 3-8 targets indefinitely. Seven percent means that 1 of 15 attacks are avoided. When there are lots of attacks, due either to lots of mobs or a few mobs that last a long time, then that 7% miss chance can be very helpful.

Originally Posted by Tatuaje

2. Scaled decrease resistance - I can remember possibly 3 times BF has been resisted and all 3 were on trash in ToO runs. And I have been bringing FL to all ToO runs and retrait for the boss later.

I have not run ToO at all on my LM yet. Im still getting gear before going into that but im really looking forward to it. I say that just to say that my exp is limited in comparison to others on this forum and probably isnt as valuable. As far as the resists you have mentioned. How is your finesse? This stat also helps lower mobs resistance ratings by a great deal. My aim is to have at least 5k finesse once i have the gear i want. Any input from other LMs if that is impractically high, about right, or too low would be appreciated.

FL is definitely nice for ToO trash pulls. Without it, controlling mobs is a bit more dicey. An extra second for a troll to move before it's put down at the beginning of a pull allows it to cover a lot more ground, and the positioning ends up being far less than ideal. That's just one example. If a mob is mezzed in the middle of a group rather than away from everything it could be accidentally AOE'd, or when it wakes up on its own as some mobs do, it can do some serious damage if anyone from the raid is standing near. Both those situations could potentially be avoided by the group having good awareness, but in some cases it could be tough to avoid those scenarios, especially when there's multiple cc targets on a pull to dance around. I like the trait for raiding, which makes sense since it's a yellow trait.

As for the Fire-lore trait. It may be more random and harder to see a tangible benefit from it, but I still think it's good. 5% miss chance is no small thing, especially with stacking miss chances from other debuffs. Do I wish it also increased the melee damage penalty to the mobs? Yeah, that would be fantastic, but the miss chance is still nice nonetheless. As for the Wind-lore trait, I don't like it as much for raiding. I use gust of wind whenever I can, but sometimes there are cc'ed mobs and you can't use it, as it does AOE damage. The other benefit from it seems like a small benefit to me. Maybe I'm not remembering very well, but I can think of very few places where there's ranged mobs in ToO. Again, I might be overlooking something there, but I feel like Fire-lore is more useful than Wind-lore in there.

Originally Posted by anteku

I like the trait. Untraited, mobs miss 2% of attacks with fire lore. Traited, mobs miss 7%. While 7% feels small, it's usefulness depends entirely on the number of incoming attacks. Of course, the trait isn't very useful when you're fighting a few mobs that die quickly.

But in a raid, you can potentially apply this debuff on 3-8 targets indefinitely. Seven percent means that 1 of 15 attacks are avoided. When there are lots of attacks, due either to lots of mobs or a few mobs that last a long time, then that 7% miss chance can be very helpful.

The trait still provides only 5% miss increase. So just 1 of 20 attacks more miss- you can't compare imp. firelore with no firelore at all.

Study of Windlore gives 3% miss AND another randomless bonus. That's a lot better than 5% miss.
There are just 5 or 6 better AM traits in my opinion.
Study of Windlore (3% miss and improved Windlore), Study of Frostlore ( longer inductions AND tactical damage reduced), Fast Loader (pros and cons are liste above), Secret of Tar (it's quite useful do be able to keep the debuff up all the time and to smash the bottle of tar faster), Power and Wisdom (drain power without just feels too weak), Deep Lore (depends on how many targets you need to debuff/if you got + Firelore-targetlegacy)

Each of the named traits provides a bonus which doesnt depend that heavily on luck. Each of the traits is reliable.

5% miss is just not enough for the cost of a traitslot.

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

I have not run ToO at all on my LM yet. Im still getting gear before going into that but im really looking forward to it. I say that just to say that my exp is limited in comparison to others on this forum and probably isnt as valuable. As far as the resists you have mentioned. How is your finesse? This stat also helps lower mobs resistance ratings by a great deal. My aim is to have at least 5k finesse once i have the gear i want. Any input from other LMs if that is impractically high, about right, or too low would be appreciated.

Concerning finesse. I trait will, vit and fate in that order filling in finesse where I can. I currently sit at 20.5K tac mastery (1.4 to 1.5K will, it moves around a bit), ~6K morale and ~540 fate, all at the unbuffed state. Until recently I had not noticed that many resists to my attacks. The last 3 days or so my ISG couldn't light a match in PvE. I am going to have to check out the finesse next time I get on. I did just swap some bling for more fate and may have removed some finesse.

@Shadow21 concerning the trolls, I usually have no issues perma locking down 2 trolls with the initial lock on one from a burg or hunter. FL makes little diff to me as I reapply BF before the last instance. On the times someone does not comprehend what no AoE means, I can recover with HL or LotRD. On the other hand if the troll beats them down like a punk after waking them up, maybe they will learn their class. At level 75, anyone raiding should know what a mob swaying like a drunk means and what no AoE means. I know not to steal aggro, they should know what no mezzing means.

Keeping 2 enemies dazed at once with a 30s daze (without +5 bonus from set) gives your enemies roughly 2 seconds of awake-time with FL traited. Without it I imagine it's even worse. Where it's needed, raid pulls for example, there is no reason not to trait it. You're not doing much more than mezzing and debuffing anyway.

Resists should be more than covered with high finesse (I try to keep it over 6k).

edited out

Originally Posted by Tatharil

The trait still provides only 5% miss increase. So just 1 of 20 attacks more miss- you can't compare imp. firelore with no firelore at all.

Study of Windlore gives 3% miss AND another randomless bonus. That's a lot better than 5% miss.
There are just 5 or 6 better AM traits in my opinion.
Study of Windlore (3% miss and improved Windlore), Study of Frostlore ( longer inductions AND tactical damage reduced), Fast Loader (pros and cons are liste above), Secret of Tar (it's quite useful do be able to keep the debuff up all the time and to smash the bottle of tar faster), Power and Wisdom (drain power without just feels too weak), Deep Lore (depends on how many targets you need to debuff/if you got + Firelore-targetlegacy)

Each of the named traits provides a bonus which doesnt depend that heavily on luck. Each of the traits is reliable.

5% miss is just not enough for the cost of a traitslot.

My bad, you're right that it's 5%.

I am neutral about whether it's better to trait for Improved Fire Lore versus Improved Wind Lore (or Tar or whatnot). I see your point that the Study of Wind lore improves 2 skills, compared to the Study of Fire Lore. I use all of the traits and skills you mention, but the optimal trait depends on the fight. There are definitely times I would not slot Improved Fire Lore, but there are other times where I would.

All I'm saying is that Improved Fire Lore is not as useless as you suggest: the value of that skill depends on how many incoming melee attacks you expect to receive.

Good to have even when not raiding too!

Originally Posted by Tatuaje

@Shadow21 concerning the trolls, I usually have no issues perma locking down 2 trolls with the initial lock on one from a burg or hunter. FL makes little diff to me as I reapply BF before the last instance. On the times someone does not comprehend what no AoE means, I can recover with HL or LotRD. On the other hand if the troll beats them down like a punk after waking them up, maybe they will learn their class. At level 75, anyone raiding should know what a mob swaying like a drunk means and what no AoE means. I know not to steal aggro, they should know what no mezzing means.

Well, that was just one example. It also depends on how you do each of the pulls in there as well. Some people kill trolls first, some leave them till last. If you're leaving trolls till last in Lightning Wing there is no way I wouldn't trait FL as an LM. Those Trolls do some serious damage if you're not right on top of them with your mez when they wake up and come out of their cave in animation.

Depending on the group you may not need to lock down two mobs. I'm assuming if you're trying to do this you have the +5 mez duration. Trying to do that without it, and/or without FL is silly imo. You're leaving too much to chance that way

Also, I play with good players and rarely see broken CC. I merely think it's an unnecessary inconvenience when mobs are CC'ed all over the room and you can either run around in circles trying to get away from them, or severely limit the skills that many classes can use while everything is going on as well.

It's been said before and it'll be said many times again. There are many ways to play the class. I think FL is a nice trait for raiding. I like all of the yellow traits for raiding, really. That's what their purpose is after all. I still think I prefer traiting Fire-lore over Wind-lore. I can think of maybe two ranged attacks at the moment in ToO. Obviously, Frost-lore trumps both in there, though.

play in a raid where every enemy have adaptation and fail your stun ...

Anyway you need to stun enemy istant and can't wait 1 second for that ... expecialy if the enemy is like a big troll with a big aoe or like the old BG sorcer
And don't forget that ! Before isengard resistence was a trait and FL was another trait now is more better !!!

Originally Posted by anteku

All I'm saying is that Improved Fire Lore is not as useless as you suggest: the value of that skill depends on how many incoming melee attacks you expect to receive.

I don't think it's completely useless. I just think other AM-traits are more reliable and I prefer reliable traits over gambling traits. (except at my tiny cute hobbit-burglar ) Study of Windlore provides nearly as much miss as Study of Firelore and adds a reliable 2nd bonus.

Originally Posted by Tatharil

I don't think it's completely useless. I just think other AM-traits are more reliable and I prefer reliable traits over gambling traits. (except at my tiny cute hobbit-burglar ) Study of Windlore provides nearly as much miss as Study of Firelore and adds a reliable 2nd bonus.

Personally, I don't like using either of them, haha.

Does Fast Loader also make you able to use it on the move?

My LM is onyl level 31 and hasn't got the trait yet.

I have Burglar main, and being able to use Riddle on the move is just so usefull, I can see this would really improve Fast Loader if it would make Blinding Flash work the same way.

Also, is it me or are the bonusses on The Ancient Master line really weak/situational?

Originally Posted by Jarnos

Also, is it me or are the bonusses on The Ancient Master line really weak/situational?

Im only lvl 32 myself, but my guess is AM line is used purely for instancing and raiding, for debuffing and CCing. We have MoNF and KoA for soloing.

Originally Posted by KopachGrobova

Im only lvl 32 myself, but my guess is AM line is used purely for instancing and raiding, for debuffing and CCing. We have MoNF and KoA for soloing.

I looked into the traits themselves on the Wiki, and they do look pretty good.
The capstone Force of Will seems really sweet as well.

It's just the bonus from the 2,3,4 set bonus that seem mediorce.
but maybe that's because they all do just 1 thing, and not "complicated" stuff with percentages on many skills etc.

Originally Posted by Tatuaje

So, I am just looking for some feedback on FL. Any agree or disagree? As is, I see it falling off the selection list unless someone can see something I do not.

BF has always been a 'must have' for me, it only got better with the recent changes, in both solo and group/raid situations. The only time it's never in my trait list is 'arena' type fights like Watcher and Draigoch when I know I won't be mezzing anything.

you can' tuse while you moving. Like every LM skill still have an animation, no induction.

And isnt't istant cause for daze / interrupt the target need to hit and if you are at max range can be few 0, sec

Having played Lotro from open beta, I consider FL a must have. The only time I wouldn't slot it is during a raid or group content that you won't be needed for mezzing.

I really wish fast loader could let me use blinding flash on the moove like a burg's riddle. In ToO lightning you want those trolls as far from the group as possible and it would be so nice to just run in ad daze instead of run in, stop and daze. That little time you stake stopping does matter. Also riddle instantly dazes the mob where blinding flash waits for the flash to hit before it dazes. If you use blinding flash from its full distance you will notice the mod can move quite a while before the flash actually hits them.

I think it would be great if they beefed up all the LMs traits. Fast loader could add an extra 5s to dazes. I know my +5s from the ToO set bonus are loved.