Thread: Moors LM Build Option: Agility versus Vitality?

Has anyone tried stacking agility over vitality on their Moors LM? Whether I have 8k morale or 10k morale doesn't help much, as a single warg can close in melee range and hit me so fast I can't even fire off a 0.8 second LotRD before it is cancelled from repeated interruptions. My thought was a higher evade from agility might allow me to actually use my skills. This was also my build pre-RoI, where I added a lot of extra evade. I remember it working well, but that was before finesse.

I do prefer a high evade build over purely dps or tactical mastery stacking.....But agility is very rare on items that can be used by LMs....raw evade is slightly easier to come by......some jewellery, relics, etc.....I'm even getting the Beleriand + Evade damage scroll from the Limlight Gorge Barter guy......having high evade really makes pulling off inductions much easier......I have experienced being setback and/or interrupted very few times when I have high evade.....I usually shoot for atleast 2k evade rating.....


But.....sadly, this is limited to PvE.....or pre-RoI PvP......with the introduction of finesse, only classes with Agility as their main stat can stack enough evade to truly counter creep finesse.....there are not enough sources of agi/evade for us to be able to reach a point where we can go over the creep's finesse ratings....

This makes mitigations far more useful now.....since we cannot avoid, we might as well try to get sturdier enough to soak it up.....and here it is that Vitality plays a important role.....it gives -everything- that is useful in the moors......Mitigations, Resistance, Morale......all 3 useful stats.....AND its easier to come by on tactical gear......hence these days its better to go more for vitality than raw morale because vitality gives far many more advantages than pure morale.....

So imo, currently in PvP, unless finesse undergoes any change, Vitality/Mitigations are more important than Agility/Evade at the moment

agility
critical
parry
evade

vitality
morale
phis and tact mitigation
resist rating and morale regen off combat ...

I think is more better vitality cause after a combat only way for restore your morale isn't inner flame ...
And for survive you need like 8k morale atm in etten else you can be killed in few hit.

I could see at least some agility coming in handy, both for the evade that you listed, and for the hit chance on your melee attacks (because if you can't get an induction off in the first place, might as well be able to hit with the attacks you are able to use). Now, would I stack it over Vitality? Probably not, but I don't 'stack' Vitality to begin with. However, grabbing a couple agility/vitality/straight evade or parry jewelry pieces may be a good way to go.

Same experience here with the LOTRD, but I think trying to stack agility would be very difficult or evade for that matter. My solution is to use a parable to get burning embers slow on them or throw and ent down for a long stun and then try a burning embers. LM's sadly have no choice but to pop call to the valar or a parable to start a fight otherwise there is no hope.

Another suggestion would be to use SS cd on your staff, as SS and Staff Sweep often show up as major contributions in my combat analysis after 1v1's.

Inductions really are an issue now more than ever.

Personally I stack vit and will. I typically run around with ~1900will and 1090 vit. I am not sure what my agi is, but I really don't put too much thought into it b/c i'm rarely going to evade anything. I'd much rather have morale and mitigation. I typically sit around 8600-9000morale with ~27-28k tact mastery.

Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal

Same experience here with the LOTRD, but I think trying to stack agility would be very difficult or evade for that matter. My solution is to use a parable to get burning embers slow on them or throw and ent down for a long stun and then try a burning embers. LM's sadly have no choice but to pop call to the valar or a parable to start a fight otherwise there is no hope.

Another suggestion would be to use SS cd on your staff, as SS and Staff Sweep often show up as major contributions in my combat analysis after 1v1's.

Inductions really are an issue now more than ever.

Personally I stack vit and will. I typically run around with ~1900will and 1090 vit. I am not sure what my agi is, but I really don't put too much thought into it b/c i'm rarely going to evade anything. I'd much rather have morale and mitigation. I typically sit around 8600-9000morale with ~27-28k tact mastery.

27k tac mastery and 9k morale i would very much like to see ur gear and stuff

Originally Posted by Rafnman

27k tac mastery and 9k morale i would very much like to see ur gear and stuff

His character's public, you can see at least half of his gear like that. Looking at it I could see it being very possible. Maybe a little under what he's stating, but not too far off. (Any gear that flat out does not show up is the new Great River stuff, anything with a ? mark and stats should be from Update 5. It should be pretty easy to guesstimate what specific gear he has in the blank spots.)

tbh i stack less tactical damage cause we need more finesse and crit.

A resist is a lose for a lore master with his induction !! And for the same point need more crit cause an ent or a burning crit can give a consistent damage else the LM damage in normal hit is really low !!

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

tbh i stack less tactical damage cause we need more finesse and crit.

A resist is a lose for a lore master with his induction !! And for the same point need more crit cause an ent or a burning crit can give a consistent damage else the LM damage in normal hit is really low !!

His crit's a little low, but the dude has 6k finesse. I think that's a pretty decent number.

Originally Posted by TinDragon

His crit's a little low, but the dude has 6k finesse. I think that's a pretty decent number.

There is always a tradeoff somewhere......his Fate is what intrigues me though....is it possible for an LM to go along with around 250 fate only?.....ICPR/ICMR would take a major hit....I always get restless if my fate drops below 600 at the very least.....

atm with my pvp equip i have
8k morale
5,7k power
3979 armor
110 might
175 agility
1131 vitality
1403 will
441 fate
5454 crit
5800 finesse
16k PM
21k TM

Without any buff.

I try and run what Grindelwald has. I sit around 1950 Will and 900 vit, If I remember right my morale is around 9100 and my tact mastery is about 25k.(might be a little less)

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

atm with my pvp equip i have
8k morale
5,7k power
3979 armor
110 might
175 agility
1131 vitality
1403 will
441 fate
5454 crit
5800 finesse
16k PM
21k TM

Without any buff.

Whats Your Physical Mitigation, Tactical Mitigation and resistance? These 3 are ones of most important stats on Etten.

Arkenhelm hit the nail on the head. Sure, evade is helpful, but thanks to finesse it is doubtful any LM could reasonably stack enough evade to make a difference without gimping himself in other areas. It worked pre-RoI because of 1) stat caps and 2) lack of finesse. It is an entirely new game and stacking any form of evade/parry whether raw or agility I doubt would make an appreciable effect. In other words, evade is alot like might on jewelry, whether or not it is there is not a consideration when picking out the piece for your build.

Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal

Same experience here with the LOTRD, but I think trying to stack agility would be very difficult or evade for that matter. My solution is to use a parable to get burning embers slow on them or throw and ent down for a long stun and then try a burning embers. LM's sadly have no choice but to pop call to the valar or a parable to start a fight otherwise there is no hope.

Another suggestion would be to use SS cd on your staff, as SS and Staff Sweep often show up as major contributions in my combat analysis after 1v1's.

Inductions really are an issue now more than ever.

Thanks for the tips on that. I've been using melee skills a lot more and knowing which of my vast arsenal of dps and debuff skills to use as battles progress and it has made an enormous difference in fights. Given that I am not as well geared as many people who post in these forums and I'm doing ok in many combat situations, my impression is that the Lore-master is as advertised: an advanced support class. The LM is largely limited by the proper rotation of his skills, of which nearly every one has a certain status effect.

I'm a bit torn how much of an issue inductions are. Two weeks ago I would have agreed. But after playing in the Moors for a few weekends with only my Lore-master, and neglecting the PvE world, I'm of the mind that Lore-Masters are about where they need to be. I believe the real issue is in comparison to certain freep classes (who I don't wish to name as that is not the purpose of this thread) they appear weak. But as far for balanced Moors action and understanding the strengths and weaknesses of what each class is supposed to bring to the table, the Lore-Master is about right for a support class. I've duo'd with other classes and I am convinced my Lore-Master makes a significant difference in the fight. A stun here. A debuff there. A slow there. Tar there. A spot heal here. Finishing act with lightning plus ents. I'm in the process of rebuilding my Lore-Master's weapons since the last few weekends, as I believe I know how to build him right to do very well in the Moors for solo and group.

As a case in point, I've taken a page out of Iinferno's book[1] and charged head strong into battle even if it is obvious I will die, and since then I've learned a lot. The LM PvP playstyle has changed. I would say the pet is the most significant choice when you enter the Moors. After that it depends on whether or not you are fighting in a group (organized or not) or solo. If you're lucky enough to be in a group (organized or not, even a duo is a big help) and have creeps fighting other freeps, I can easily stand off from the range and lob BE, Sticky gourd, LotRD, ToW, CE, GoW and all my debuffs at the enemy while putting stun dots and spot heals on my whoever the freep is (we're a support class after all). If, however, I am solo or under attack I have learned that running away is highly situational and should only be done when the time is right (if at all). Especially against wargs and spiders. Last weekend at rank 4 audacity I have been able to kill some wargs that jumped me in the open field (rank 6 or greater), but it requires blowing all my cooldowns and finishing with call to valor and lightning storm. Sometimes we've killed eachother thanks to long BE DoTs. More often than not they still kill me, but judging by how low their morale is, I think slightly better gear will change that situation. My tact mastery is only at about 23k, morale about 8.2k, resistance at about 32%, audacity is 4.

[1] I'm not picking on Iinferno here, but I still distinctly remember playing with my creep and about 8 others in a fellowship, and out came Iinferno, suicidally charging us. Then he came back for seconds and thirds. We started to become rather unnerved at this behavior and moved away from the zone.

Originally Posted by Ritenn

Whats Your Physical Mitigation, Tactical Mitigation and resistance? These 3 are ones of most important stats on Etten.

5757 resistence
3877 physical
6527 tactical

Been away for a bit here, but when I get back to my comp I'll post my stats/gear. I personally find finesse really useful in the moors these days with all the resists I am seeing. Again, I believe i've found a good balance, but maybe a bit more tact mastery would help. I often find myself losing any battle that lasts any amount of time due to our low armour value, unless i'm kiting... which I prefer to avoid. As a result, maybe throwing down big hits in the beginning with very high tact offense is the way to go?

Originally Posted by Ritenn

Whats Your Physical Mitigation, Tactical Mitigation and resistance? These 3 are ones of most important stats on Etten.

Physical mitigation is useless in the moors, unless you are fighting low ranks or npcs

Sorry too lazy to fix blur...

This is a moors build so my audacity pieces aren't the greatest for stats, but 27505 tact mastery 1069 vit and 1912 will.

Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal

Been away for a bit here, but when I get back to my comp I'll post my stats/gear. I personally find finesse really useful in the moors these days with all the resists I am seeing. Again, I believe i've found a good balance, but maybe a bit more tact mastery would help. I often find myself losing any battle that lasts any amount of time due to our low armour value, unless i'm kiting... which I prefer to avoid. As a result, maybe throwing down big hits in the beginning with very high tact offense is the way to go?

I've been using the eagle due to high flank rates. WIth the high flank rates sometimes I can get off 3 1k heals per fight. That at least can prolong the battle for a time. Even then it isn't always enough (though I am only rank 4 audacity).

-Synlas

Originally Posted by Feomalo

Physical mitigation is useless in the moors, unless you are fighting low ranks or npcs

Dare to explain?

Originally Posted by Ritenn

Dare to explain?

Physical mitigation only works on common damage and weapon damage (ancient-dwarf, westernesse, beleriand) and almost all the creeps do tactical damage (fire, shadow, acid....), except warleaders and blackarrows with their melee attacks (you are not going to die from this tbh). Thats way tactical mitigation is the only mitigation you need in EM.

Originally Posted by synfin

I've been using the eagle due to high flank rates. WIth the high flank rates sometimes I can get off 3 1k heals per fight. That at least can prolong the battle for a time. Even then it isn't always enough (though I am only rank 4 audacity).

-Synlas

Can't argue against using the eagle. I think it may be the only way to beat a high-skill defiler. In the end its like a pot whenever you get a flank, at least in total morale healed. I do find it hard to get rid of improved sticky gourd.

I looked at my combat analysis from a moors night and "improved sticky gourd" the burn part of the gourd did the most damage out of any skill. It was a big difference too, something like 140k to 70k for BE. Then again there were a lot of keep fights.

Good point though regardless Synlas, the eagle is probably the best pet and I like the fears too.

Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal

Can't argue against using the eagle. I think it may be the only way to beat a high-skill defiler. In the end its like a pot whenever you get a flank, at least in total morale healed. I do find it hard to get rid of improved sticky gourd.

I looked at my combat analysis from a moors night and "improved sticky gourd" the burn part of the gourd did the most damage out of any skill. It was a big difference too, something like 140k to 70k for BE. Then again there were a lot of keep fights.

Good point though regardless Synlas, the eagle is probably the best pet and I like the fears too.

I never unslot sticky gourd unless asked to in a raid that knows how to use it. I tend to swap ents for eagle in solo play, while I'll swap eagle for ents in group play. I'm still not decided on which is the best yet, as not having ents is a big loss in burst dps, but the heals do help a lot.

Originally Posted by synfin

I never unslot sticky gourd unless asked to in a raid that knows how to use it. I tend to swap ents for eagle in solo play, while I'll swap eagle for ents in group play. I'm still not decided on which is the best yet, as not having ents is a big loss in burst dps, but the heals do help a lot.

I have a hard time unslotting Ents pretty much ever. Although if I am AM/CCing I typically unslot it. What we really need is to get rid of the Master of Staff legendary and make it a passive or some other option.

i think must can be improve the pet with the trait for increse 1 level

THat for have more hit/flank

I have to say that despite what people say, I'm not really a fan of Eagle (at all-but especially in the moors).
I would say that by far the best pet in the moors is Raven. Reasons (my numbers may be slightly off, not on my LM atm):
1) +1300 tact mit. This is great in solo play, and only gets better in groups. Far superior to Eagle's sad ICPR.
2) huge fire resistance debuff (upwards of -2k now I think). This allows you to hit things significantly harder. Helpful in 1v1s, and super helpful in group play, as you're more likely to be focusing on your big fire AoEs.
3)Distraction. This isn't a huge deal all the time, but always handy versus BAs. With Wind-lore and Distraction in your arsenal, a BA simply cannot hope to beat you 1v1.
4) The evade skill is admittedly not always great, but if there aren't many people out it can be very useful to pull a bridge or some other npcs for you as a creep runs away. The Raven will take the aggro, and because he evades you have some time to try to kill that pesky creep before your pet dies and the npcs turn on you.

In exchange, I feel the Eagle gives very little. The fear is just not even worth speaking about with audacity and DR. The rez is ok, but in a 1v1 useless and in a group there should be a rez somewhere for you. I confess I can't even remember the other eagle skill...I don't remember it been particularly impressive.
Against all these the only thing the Eagle supposedly has going for it is the "higher flank rate". As to that, all I can say is that the long time-averaged statistical tests that I saw in both SoA and Moria showed that the Eagle was no better a flanker than anything else (actually worse than many). Admittedly, this is now out of date, and it may have been fixed. I personally can detect no difference, really. I know Raven sometimes flanks 3-4 times in a (solo moors) fight, and sometimes once.
Overall, I strongly urge people to try the Raven in the moors. I believe it is just all around the best pet available to you.

More generally, I also think the Raven is the best pet in most circumstances. Really the only times I would advocate not using Raven is solo levelling at the mid levels (lynx is a good choice here, lots of DPS and you don't have nearly as much comparatively), while solo healing (bog-lurker, with the assured melee flank every 15s is a must here, I think), and in some few raid situations where DPS is the absolute key (bear, with shatter arms, is useful in such situations).
However, in really any MoNF situation, alone or in group, and in the majority of raids, I would always use Raven.

Anyway, I know that derails the thread maybe a bit but some people were talking about pets and I thought I'd add my thoughts.

the good thing of the eagle in 1vs 1 is only about higt rank of flank.
At last flank is the only heal and the only real increase of damage ( double of the staf strike )
Can be a really good point if flank enought but ent are more better in combat with more enemy ... stiky +ent +sweep you can kill 3 or 4 warg in the same time

Dont forget that Eagle has auto innterupt, with is very handy against some creeps.
I prefer to fight defilers/WLs with Eagle over Raven becouse fight last long, so lots more flanks give bigger advantage, and heals get interrupted very offen.

But I aggre, Raven is beter "all around" pet.

Definitely agree on raven for most fights, especially group fights. I like the flank rate on the eagle, but i believe it really only has a place for 1v1ing defilers or warleaders for the interrupts and longevity with flanks.

tact mit will win in the moors a large majority of the time until pet dmg gets buffed or another pet gets buffed.

Distraction also has a 10% miss rate attached to its debuff. I think Raven is far superiour to eagle imo for all play. Making attacks miss is key to a light armored class that wants to win solo fights.

Originally Posted by Feomalo

Physical mitigation only works on common damage and weapon damage (ancient-dwarf, westernesse, beleriand) and almost all the creeps do tactical damage (fire, shadow, acid....), except warleaders and blackarrows with their melee attacks (you are not going to die from this tbh). Thats way tactical mitigation is the only mitigation you need in EM.

This statement is wrong.
Its all about how you experiance Etten. If only thing You are doing there is raid vs raid, or fighting single creeps on "1vs1" areas (I believe all servers have those) then Yes, physical mitigation is not important.
But what if some people like questing there? From my experiance I know how offen creeps jump on freep fighting with npc's (Grothum, anyone?). I'd like to be more sturdy in that situations.
What if some like to roam on thier own in looking for creeps on less crowded areas? They tend to kite through all near npcs to increase winning chance.

For myself stacking physical mitigation is as important as tactical mitigation and resistance, even if my damage output pay the price.