Ok, got a few questions here... All having to do with The Fellowship of the Ring.
1. There are 9 Nazgul, I'm assuming they're the men(Who desire power above all else), but what happened to the Dwarf Lords and Elven royalty?
2. How long has it been since Bilbo found the ring?
3. How does the Ring change Gollum(I can't remember his Hobbit name) so quickly, but it never completely changes Bilbo, even though he's carried it everywhere and obsessed over it.
4. How long does it take the Hobbits to get from the Shire to Rivendell?
5. How does Bilbo look so good in the beginning of the movie, but in Rivendell, it looks like he's put on 20 years? It only took Frodo and Elrond's daughter(I can't remember her name at all) 6 days to get from the edge of Lone Lands/Trollshaws to Rivendell, so it can't have taken them too long...
6. Where IS the Lonely Mountain (Regionwise)
I'll think of more as the movie progresses, and there will definitely be more as I watch Two Towers and Return of the King, so check back often.
Ok, got a few questions here... All having to do with The Fellowship of the Ring.
1. There are 9 Nazgul, I'm assuming they're the men(Who desire power above all else), but what happened to the Dwarf Lords and Elven royalty?
Well the seven dwarf rings were either destroyed by dragon fire or taken back by Sauron (4 destroyed, 3 recovered). The Dwarf lords didn't change, they just became quicker to anger and greedier.
The three elf rings were eventually held by Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf (who had his given to him by Cirdan). These were untouched by Sauron and so the bearers were fine.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c2
2. How long has it been since Bilbo found the ring?
Well Bilbo found it on July, 2941 I think. It's around 3018 depending on where you are in the game, so it's about 77 years since it was found.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c2
3. How does the Ring change Gollum(I can't remember his Hobbit name) so quickly, but it never completely changes Bilbo, even though he's carried it everywhere and obsessed over it.
Gollum found the ring in 2463. Bilbo got it in 2941. That means Gollum had it for 478 years. Bilbo had it about 60 years.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c2
4. How long does it take the Hobbits to get from the Shire to Rivendell?
I think it was about 27 or 28 days for Frodo. A little longer for the others.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c2
5. How does Bilbo look so good in the beginning of the movie, but in Rivendell, it looks like he's put on 20 years? It only took Frodo and Elrond's daughter(I can't remember her name at all) 6 days to get from the edge of Lone Lands/Trollshaws to Rivendell, so it can't have taken them too long...
The ring wasn't with him so he wasn't 'stopped' from aging. As soon as he was away from it, time caught up with him. It didn't happen to Gollum because he never let the rings hold over him go from his mind but Bilbo did.
2. What did the Goblins invade Moria for? Did the Dwarves finally delve too deep, or was it Sauron's doing?
Around TA 2480, Sauron sent orcs and trolls to the misty mountains to cut off the passes in the north. Some of them ended up in Moria.
"Stories have a way of changing faces. They are unruly things, undisciplined, given to delinquency and the throwing of erasers. This is why we must close them up into thick, solid books, so they cannot get out and cause trouble."
"Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it," said Gimli.
"Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge," said Gandalf. "Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone."
"Stories have a way of changing faces. They are unruly things, undisciplined, given to delinquency and the throwing of erasers. This is why we must close them up into thick, solid books, so they cannot get out and cause trouble."
The calendar in the book was done in modern style. Tolkien did create actual calendars for Elves, Men and Hobbits, and I believe he did something for Dwarves as well. Most of this information is in the appendicies to the book and some in the postumous books containing his notes, ideas and early versions. Tolkien realized the reading audience would not understand the unique names for days of the weeks and months or how they related to what we know of as the seasons and the months within them so he wisely went with modern forms.
As for Bilbo's aging, in the book there's a seventeen year gap between Bilbo's party and Frodo leaving the Shire. The movie makes it look like it was considerably shorter.
"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81
5. How does Bilbo look so good in the beginning of the movie, but in Rivendell, it looks like he's put on 20 years? It only took Frodo and Elrond's daughter(I can't remember her name at all) 6 days to get from the edge of Lone Lands/Trollshaws to Rivendell, so it can't have taken them too long...
Just this one; Bilbo looks about twenty years older for two reasons:
He's no longer in posesion of the ring
He IS twenty years older
Bilbo left the Shire on the evening of his 111th birthday, Frodo's 33rd and Frodo left the Shire on his 50th.
1. Why did Gandalf leave Merry and Pippin with the Ents? Was it because he knew they would convince the Ents to play a major part in the War of the Ring?
2. Was the Ring found in the Brandybuck River? Gandalf mentions that Smeagol was one of The River Folk.. Iirc, the River Folk dwell on the Bree side of the Brandybuck.
3. Are the trees in the Old Forest classified as Ents?
4. If the Elves taught the Ents to speak, why do they not speak some form of Elvish?
5. If Sauron can sense the RIng, why didn't he sense it while Frodo and Sam were outside (And inside) Mordor?
6. Why are the trees in Fangorn angry?
7. Where did the Ents loose the Ent-wives?
8. Is Grima a servant of Saruman while in Theoden's palace?
9. When Theoden says "Your witchcraft would have had me crawling on all fours like a beast'', is he saying that Grima is a witch/warlock, or is he speaking of his actions?
10. Gandalf tells Aragorn that "I have walked this earth for 300 lives of men.'' That would make him (300 X 80) ~24,000 years old, correct?
Riddermark toons:
Hafwit - 29 Dwarf Minstrel, Riddermark, Legends of Numenor
Lothreth - 15 Female Captain, Riddermark, Area Fifty-One
I'll answer what I can, and those I can't I'll leave for others.
1. Can't answer that.
2. From what I understand it was found in the Anduin where it was lost. The Stoors (which is what he was) traveled west over time, so it's possible he lived in the area back then.
3. Trees and Ents are different. The trees came first, and when Yavanna, worried that the new creations the dwarves would fell her children the trees. She begged for protection for them and thus the Ents were created as guardians. So, while Ents over time took on the form of trees, they are not the same.
4. From what I understand they do speak a form of Elvish though the usage, vocabulary and grammar are different. They do have their own language but guard it not unlike the Dwarves do with their own. The Ents found Quenya to be a pleasing language and adopted much of it for themselves.
5. He is not omnipotent and omnipresent as he is generally the evil version of what Gandalf was. He was distracted by his hate for and desire to destroy Aragorn and his line.
6. Because the old forests of Middle Earth which once covered all of Eriador have been destroyed over the years.
7. The Ents moved into the area known as the Brown Lands following their desire to plant and control natural things. Sauron destroyed and leveled the forests of the brown lands and the Entwives vanished.
8. Someone else can answer this better than I.
9. I believe he is referencing his ability to sway men's hearts with his smooth talking as a form of witchcraft but not that he is an actual Warlock or Witch.
10. Gandalf is a Maiar of Valinor and used to live in Valinor before being sent to middle earth. His name before was Olórin and he's as old as pretty much anything in middle earth. He would have been around before even the Elves. As far as Middle Earth is concerned he was there for about 2,000 years.
Anyone else, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. Most of your answers can be found in the LOTR wiki.
1. Why did Gandalf leave Merry and Pippin with the Ents? Was it because he knew they would convince the Ents to play a major part in the War of the Ring?
That seems a likely answer, yes. Throw together the most patient and impatient beings on earth, and they're bound to drive each other crazy.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
2. Was the Ring found in the Brandybuck River? Gandalf mentions that Smeagol was one of The River Folk.. Iirc, the River Folk dwell on the Bree side of the Brandybuck.
IIRC, the hobbits did not migrate to the Shire until after Gollum's time. So no, the ring was not found by the Brandywine. (I think it might have been found in the Anduin.)
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
3. Are the trees in the Old Forest classified as Ents?
Nope. Ents are not trees, although some could fall asleep and become very treeish. The trees that were much more awake than normal were called Huorns. They were like a cross between a tree and an Ent.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
4. If the Elves taught the Ents to speak, why do they not speak some form of Elvish?
I believe the elves taught them to speak elvish - I have no memory of them ever teaching (let alone coming up with) something like Old Entish. It's a language made of tree noises, mostly, so I would assume trees and their shepherds came up with it.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
5. If Sauron can sense the RIng, why didn't he sense it while Frodo and Sam were outside (And inside) Mordor?
He was quite distracted at the moment. Think of it this way - the smell of rich chocolate brownies is distracting, but you wouldn't pay it any attention if you were in a boxing match. Sauron was so focused on Gondor and later the battle outside his gates that he couldn't really pay attention to his own land.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
6. Why are the trees in Fangorn angry?
Sauron went on a tree-chopping rampage. You'd get mad if someone went around chopping at the legs of your friends, too
They were naturally mad at Orcs, too. Orcs and nature have never had a good relationship.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
8. Is Grima a servant of Saruman while in Theoden's palace?
Aye, Grima was a planted mole.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
9. When Theoden says "Your witchcraft would have had me crawling on all fours like a beast'', is he saying that Grima is a witch/warlock, or is he speaking of his actions?
He actually said leachcraft, not witchcraft. And I believe that line was from the movie... still, it wasn't far off. Grima had been quietly killing Theoden by having him sit around and do nothing inside under the guise of leachcraft, or some such excuse.
Originally Posted by airsoftg36c
10. Gandalf tells Aragorn that "I have walked this earth for 300 lives of men.'' That would make him (300 X 80) ~24,000 years old, correct?
Also a movie quote, and one I've always found a bit funny. Gandalf, in his Wizard form, is younger than the Third Age (which was only 3,000 years old at this point.). He was sent to aid the free peoples at some point after the 2nd age ended. But his true form is far more ancient - he actually predates Arda and Middle-earth by some amount of time. 24,000 years actually wouldn't be too far off, based on how old the world is.
"The rejection of grammatical correction is proof of the level of intelligence hinted at by your writing."
Now please keep this discussion on topic or you may be reported for causing time mismanagement
He actually said leachcraft, not witchcraft. And I believe that line was from the movie... still, it wasn't far off. Grima had been quietly killing Theoden by having him sit around and do nothing inside under the guise of leachcraft, or some such excuse.
That mention of 'leechcraft' could imply that more than just whispering was involved. Personally, I imagine Wormtongue had been dosing Theoden with something noxious in the guise of medicine, something that dulled his wits and enfeebled him.
There are 9 Nazgul, I'm assuming they're the men(Who desire power above all else), but what happened to the Dwarf Lords and Elven royalty?
I presume that this question is in relation to the verse:
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
This verse leads some to the misperception that Sauron devised some or all of these rings with these peoples in mind. That is not the case at all.
Sixteen of the rings were made by the Elven-smiths of Eregion with the aid of Sauron in the fair guise of Annatar Lord of Gifts. The Elves of Eregion believed that Annatar was an emissary from Valinor. The so-called 'Three Rings for Elven-kings' were made in secret, albeit with the knowledge that they had acquired from Sauron. Sauron then made the One Ring, i.e., the Ruling Ring, to control the other rings. When the Elves put on the Three they instantly became aware of Sauron and the One Ring, so they hid them.
Sauron made war on the Elves and captured the Sixteen, but he never found the Three. He then distributed the Sixteen to Men (9) and Dwarves (7). The Men had power and riches, but eventually faded and became wraiths. The Dwarves due to their nature could not become wraiths, but they were corrupted nonetheless.
When Sauron was defeated in battle, and the Ring cut from his finger, the Elves were then able to wear and use the Three without fear. Gil-galad, the last High King of the Elves, originally received Narya and Vilya while Galadriel received Nenya. Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond at the time he had established Imladris (Rivendell), and Narya to Círdan, Lord of the Grey Havens. When Gandalf came to Middle-earth Círdan gave Narya, the Ring of Fire, to him.
I wholeheartedly concur with OBB's post about the Rings. We had a pretty lively discussion of this point in the JRRT forums a couple years back about original purpose of the lesser Rings of Power. There is a potential tension between the ring poem from The Fellowship of the Ring (which establishes a 3/7/9 division of the rings), on the one hand, and the discussion of the making of the rings in a chapter of The Silmarillion called On the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
In my view, the discussion of the making of the rings in the Silmarillion is conclusive. Sauron's goal was to enslave the Noldor Elves, whom the text states were his most hated enemies. He came to the Noldor at Eregion in disguise as Annatar, Lord of Gifts, and taught them great smith-lore. Among other things, he taught them how to make rings of power. Around 1500 of the Second Age (SA), the first rings of power are forged in Eregion. At some point in the latter part of the century, Sauron withdrew from Eregion and returned to Morder to begin crafting the One Ring. In 1590 SA the three "Elven Rings" were completed made by Celebrimbor of Eregion, acting independently of Sauron. Then, in 1600, Sauron completes the forging of the One Ring. When Sauron puts the One Ring on his finger, he can perceive the thoughts of the ring bearers and can begin to dominate their wills, but the ring bearers also become aware of Sauron's intentions. The Noldor remove their rings and refuse to use them further.
Somehow Sauron has grossly miscalculated, and this is a point I often struggle with. How were the Noldor able to disrupt Sauron's scheme so easily, and how did Sauron fail to anticipate this? My best explanation is hubris. In the 1600 years since Morgoth (Sauron's master) was overthrown in the War of Wrath, Sauron had come to overesteem his own power and to underestimate the Noldors' strength of will.
In any case, Sauron is enraged at the foiling of his plans and sends an envoy to Eregion demanding that the Noldor render to him the rings of power. They refuse, and he makes war upon them. Sauron himself leads his armies, and Eregion is destroyed. Celebrimbor is slain, and Sauron's army literally uses his broken body as a standard to terrify their foes. Sauron recovers from the elves of Eregion 16 rings of power, but the "Three" were sent away by Celebrimbor before Sauron attacks Eregion. One goes to Galadriel and two go to Gil-galad. Later Gil-galad gives one to Elrond and the other to Cirdan the Ship-wright (who subsequently gives his to Gandalf when he arrives in Middle-earth from Valinor).
Gil-galad sent Elrond and troops of Lindon to the aid of Eregion, but Sauron's forces were too strong. However, Elrond was able to rally the survivors of Eregion, and they withdraw northward. There Elrond and his followers established a refuge in a hidden valley called Imladris (Rivendell).
Sauron continued rampaging west and was pressing Gilgalad in Lindon when a contingent of Numenoreans (Gilgalad had sent for aid) arrived by ship and routed Sauron's army with great slaughter. Sauron himself barely escaped back to Mordor with a small bodyguard. From Mordor, Sauron was nevertheless over time able to build up a mighty army, primarily comprised of Men dwelling to the east (Easterlings, Wainriders, Variags of Khand) and south (Haradrim). Sauron's efforts were successful in no small part due to his gifting nine great kings/captains of Men with Rings of Power that Sauron had recovered from the smiths of Eregion. A few of these were even "Black Numenoreans," meaning Numenoreans who had developed dark tendencies and were colonizing the southern coastal regions of Middle-earth with force, extracting tribute, etc. These nine of course became the Nazgul, and it is believed that their chief was a Black Numenorean of royal descent.
As OBB indicates, Sauron re-gifted to dwarf kings the other seven lesser Rings of Power that he had recovered. Again Sauron's plan for dominance fails, as it turns out the dwarves' inherent nature is such that they cannot be dominated by Sauron or turned into wraiths. Nevertheless, the corrupting power of the Rings did exacerbate the dwarven ring-bearers' worst tendencies (greed, suspicion, etc.). It is thought that although these "dwarf rings" were the foundations of great wealth for their bearers, the rings also helped contribute to their eventual downfall (e.g, perhaps it was the corrupting power of a ring that caused an overly greedy and prideful dwarf king of Moria to dig too deep in search of more mithril).
Here is the text of another post I made on this subject in this forum a year or two ago in response to a poster asking why there were no orc-wraiths:
This is a very interesting issue. There is (perhaps) a bit of an inconsistency between the description of Sauron's ring scheme in LotR and in the Silmarillion. LotR presents us the Ring poem about a 3/7/9 division of the rings of power, all subject to a master ring, and otherwise gives the impression that Sauron always intended for these 19 lesser rings to be bestowed across three races.
In contrast, the chapter in the Silmarillion entitled Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (in my mind at least) clearly establishes that Sauron's ring scheme was originally intended solely as a means of dominating and controlling the elves, whom Sauron especially hated. According to the Silmarillion, all 19 of the lesser rings were originally held by the elves of Eregion. It was only later - after the elves discovered Sauron's plan and Sauron sacked Eregion, slew Celebrimbor and recovered 16 of the 19 lesser rings - that Sauron moved on to a Plan B and bestowed 7 and 9 among men and dwarves.
The Silmarillion concept of the ring scheme raises some slight continuity problems vis a vis LotR because it makes one wonder who wrote the Ring poem, when and why. It also raises the question of whether the 19 rings had specific inherent powers that were suited to the three races or whether they were more generic and later exhibited different powers as a result of the differing natures of the races that wielded them. Those, however, are issues for another thread (we actually got into it at length about a year ago, and you should still be able to find it in this subforum).
For purposes of your question, I think the clear answer under either version of the story is that Sauron came up with the ring scheme to gain mastery over his enemies among the Free Peoples, and that he presumably did not need those sorts of tools to dominate and control the evil races originally created/corrupted by Morgoth. Remember that the point of the master ring/servant rings is that they allow Sauron to enslave the will of the wearer of the servant ring. Sauron presumably did not need to go that far to gain control of the goblinoid races.
Another way to resolve the issue is to consider how and when the rings were made. The original 19 lesser rings were created by the smiths of Eregion (either with Sauron's help or using techniques that he taught them), and then Sauron forged the master ring over the course of another year or so. No other lesser rings that were tied to the master ring were made after that, either by Sauron or the elves. It is not stated why Sauron didn't make any more (probably the servant rings had to be made first), but taking that framework as a given we can draw some conclusions. If we follow the LotR concept of an intended 3/7/9 division of the rings, it seems obvious that the elves of Eregion would never have made any rings "for" the goblins. I suppose it still begs the question of why Sauron didn't make other servant rings before forging the master ring, and personally I think it is because the Silmarillion concept is the "correct" view.
If we follow the Silmarillion concept of there having been 19 rings of non-specific intended use, then we are still left with the question of why Sauron disposed of the 16 with a 7/9 split among dwarves and men and none for the evil races. That takes us back to the notion of using them as a means to enslave his foes (and the presumed lack of the need for such a tool with respect to the evil races).
Interestingly, in the earliest drafts of LotR Tolkien actually did imagine that there were a larger number of lesser rings of power that had been more widely distributed, and that there were orc ringwraiths running about.
5. He is not omnipotent and omnipresent as he is generally the evil version of what Gandalf was. He was distracted by his hate for and desire to destroy Aragorn and his line.
I believe the real reason is that the final march on the Black Gate was a powerfully successful ruse.
The book more or less explains:
1. Frodo is close, he needs a distraction
2. Our combined armies after the battle of Pelenor Fields is pitifully small.
3. This army would be considered a real threat if we make it SEEM that Aragorn is actually wielding the one ring.
Remember that Sauron probably never EVER considered it possible that anyone would try to destroy the ring, the precious. The nature of the ring is his own nature, and one of powerful corruption.
For Sauron, this noisy, slow, obvious march to the black gate, with Aragorn at it's head, appears exactly as Sauron would have predicted. "Aragorn has succumbed to the corruption of the ring and has claimed it for himself. Bolstered by this power, he thinks he can defeat and replace me. Well, if he is heading to the Black Gate, I will show him just exactly how wrong he is."
TL;DR - Sauron thought he was sending his armies north to the Black Gate to defeat Aragorn and collect his ring. His hatred of Aragorn's line was icing on the cake.
1. Why did Gandalf leave Merry and Pippin with the Ents? Was it because he knew they would convince the Ents to play a major part in the War of the Ring?
That is quite possible. I think the overwhelming reason is that Merry and Pippin were perfectly safe with Fangron/Treebeard, and Gandalf simply did not have time to do anything else with them (Frodo's mission is the primary one, and secondly making sure Gondor can be saved if at all possible)
8. Is Grima a servant of Saruman while in Theoden's palace?
Grima is a man of Rohan, at some point he was "bought by Saruman" (Gandalf's words) and became Saurman's servant. His mission was to influence Theoden and keep him weak so Saurman could conquer Rohan more easily.
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Originally Posted by airsoftg36c2
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