Thread: 'Invasion of Bree' - The Controversy. Your opinions and Input.

Although alot of great stuff's been typed in this discussion, the one thing that's stood out the most to me is this by Tiempko:

There is no wrong way to have fun, except to have fun at the expense of others.

Thanks, OP'er, for pulling this storyline into the open. The storyline's been tons of fun already for those involved, and I'd hate to see it fade due to opinions on RP techniques. On a similar note, there's never been and never will be one definitive layer of Bree (Thornley's farm has had no less than four different setting incarnations, and Dot Leafbottom surely suffers from severe multiple personality disorder--and that's just with Karneth in the last couple of months.) The question here is more a matter of whether or not a smaller community's actions will impact the general community's layer. I see no reason for the event to not occur on one layer, but I see tons of reasons for the event itself to not occur in the general community. Regardless of who did or did not support the Gondamon siege, that occured on its own plane of existence to me, shared by all involved and those of us who have since played out the repurcussions.

The current larger-scale stuff is an apparant work-in-progress, OOC- and IC-wise, from what I see. (I wish I had been a part of the hour long discussion the OP is referring to--I gained alot of great criticism for my flub on the fire job and really appreciated the feedback.) Most are adjusting scales and actions according to the OOC/IC dialogues. There could be vast improvement on the OOC communication aspects--I'm not aware of any apparant counter-movements that certainly would have begun by now. But I might just be out of the loop.

So I vote yes on a possible event. I can also imagine a long-term buildup involving all the other ideas posted: I could easily see the invasion stalling/collapsing/failing before it makes it to Bree proper. But, all-in-all, it was a hoot with Gondamon, and could be a hoot with this. There's some debate on whether it would -work-. But it doesn't have to -work-, per se. It just has to be fun to those involved, excepting that fun infringing on others' fun. In that line, I vote no on general populace repurcussions.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

*chuckle* Do I? Perhaps you need to re-read what you wrote

I do not. I said:

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

Pretending like game mechanics and arbitrary "levels" should play any roll in cooperative storytelling is failRP every bit as much as godmoding and pretending your character is as powerful as a Maiar regardless of level.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

Try again?

Try learning to read.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

What is "good" RP and "bad" RP is a highly subjective thing. And declaring to someone who *does* take the game into account in their RP that "That's bad RPing on your part" comes across as pompous and offensive to someone who (like me) *also* takes the game into account in RP.

I suppose I could counter by saying that someone who wants to play a powerful character but doesn't bother to level said character to cap is just being lazy and asking folks to accept such godmodding...but that would be pompous and offensive, too, so I won't do that.

And yet you fail to grasp that my comments were in direct response to one who said that the only good RP is relying on game mechanics

While I believe RP and game play CAN be and SHOULD be integrated when possible, stating that the only good RP is accepting that the game mechanics are the final arbiter of all conflicts IS fail RP.

That is not RP. That is playing a video game.

That's why most of those who feel that way are often very uncreative individuals and/or are young teenagers.

Tiempko has a very good point. There is no wrong way to have fun unless it's at the expense of others. This applies to Roleplaying, so please, let's keep it civil and not flame anyone or derail the thread for their style of Roleplaying.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

I submit that that is actually a *good* thing, as an event of this type should *NEVER* affect anyone outside of those involved.

Or do you think it should? Are you suggesting this *should* be taken into account by RPers who want no part of it? Or am I misreading you?

You're sort of misreading me. I'm trying to point out that the two extremes wind up with unhappy parties. If the event were to happen in a populated area, the people who aren't involved would be severely put off by it and it would turn into a flame fest. If it's held in a remote area or a homestead, then....what's the point? If the criminal element won, then huzzah, they won a...homestead that no one really goes to anyway. If the good guys won, then the bad guys would be jailed at best, executed at worst....all over a piece of land that doesn't really matter that much. If the criminal element is going to do something and risk their character's lives, it needs to be over something that's worth it. Unfortunately, all the things that are "worth it" would cause those who don't want to be involved to become involved.

And forgive me if I'm not making sense, have had a long day at work.

Originally Posted by SaxonDog

.Unfortunately, all the things that are "worth it" would cause those who don't want to be involved to become involved.

I dont really think this sort of event really ''worths it'' in the first place. There are events/ideas that should be/have been in the server and are worth it far more than this one

And to add what i said on one of my previous posts about this event:

[[I cant understand why its so hard for people to organise RP Events that are actually within the spirit of Lord of the Rings and Middle-earth and not just something it is only sure to cause/start/create/stir
''trouble''/trollin/facepalms and to put other rpers into a situation they dont wish to join. It gives the server a bad name as well really...

This event, its the same thing as a group of hooligans going to another neighbourhood to do their ''stuff'' and business instead of doing this in their own place where they dont have to expose and force a situation of what they do to others who have been in their neigbourhood since the start. Just an example]]

Originally Posted by SaxonDog

And forgive me if I'm not making sense, have had a long day at work.

Thats fine, i understand

Originally Posted by Tiempko

To be honest . . .

Because many of them are our friends, and for many of us the company of our friends holds more value than certain arbitrary rules. When we hold an event - our friends are invited. We would not have it any other way. At our events, they act hobbitty enough. They just LOOK a little different. We try not to stare.

Thats perfectly fine, as you said as long as the rp is fun and doesnt disturb any other person in a bad way then its all good
However i noticed something in your post and felt the need to point out the ''error'' which is the following :

Originally Posted by Tiempko

Note: The Shire is an introductory area. So, we try to fit into the Shire as it was when Frodo himself left - mostly keeping to ourselves and letting the world go on about its business. We think that this is the Shire a new player should see

Sorry in advance to the rest of you for continuing this tangent, but after this nonsensical attempt at snark...

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

Try learning to read.

I'm just not done yet...

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

And yet you fail to grasp that my comments were in direct response to one who said that the only good RP is relying on game mechanics

WRONG. The post you attacked in no way states that is the *ONLY* way to RP well. Only YOU did that.

Okokdir merely stated HE takes the game into acount and would be unwilling to allow a L20 to emote his way to victory over a L75. And with very few exceptions...so would I. At no point did he criticize those who do, or say their RP was wrong, merely that that's not the way HE plays. And to forestall anymore snark about which of us should invest in hooked on phonics...let's look at his exact words:

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Sounds fun, however the role players who ignore the game world physics (player stats/level/equip) are going to have to contend with those of us who do not believe their level 20 burglar is capable of causing harm to our geared out 75s (as they are not). *grins*

Please demonstrate your contention that the above constitutes a statement that using the game is the "only good way to RP"...

If you can't then perhaps you might want to admit you shot off your mouth (fingers) without cause and the rest of your attemps to justify it were little more than strawmen offered in support of a position *nobody* (except you) ever stated.

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

While I believe RP and game play CAN be and SHOULD be integrated when possible,

Really? And you suggest *I* need to learn to read? Let me refresh your memory:

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

RP is cooperative storytelling. Game mechanics have absolutely nothing to do with that other than allowing for easier RP in certain areas.


Pretending like game mechanics and arbitrary "levels" should play any roll in cooperative storytelling is failRP every bit as much as godmoding and pretending your character is as powerful as a Maiar regardless of level.

(Emphasis mine)
So which is it? Your original statements? Or this new, contradictory position? If *YOU* can't even keep your position straight how are the rest of us supposed to?

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

stating that the only good RP is accepting that the game mechanics are the final arbiter of all conflicts IS fail RP.

Which I reinterate, NOONE has done....except you.

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

That is not RP. That is playing a video game.

That's why most of those who feel that way are often very uncreative individuals and/or are young teenagers.

And you close with yet another pontificarion on what is and isn't RP. Remind me to run my next plot past you to get your seal of approval since (apparently) you've been appointed final arbiter and god king of RP on Landy...*rolleyes*

Originally Posted by SaxonDog

If it's held in a remote area or a homestead, then....what's the point? If the criminal element won, then huzzah, they won a...homestead that no one really goes to anyway.

Not necessarily. Don't forget, the original suggestion about the homestead (which was mine) included the notion that the chosen homestead be IC'ly considered a part of Bree proper. If this were to be used, then why couldn't the participants continue to use it as such, in effect creating a piece of Bree which could then be fought over and change hands as often as the story allowed it. If there is a "critical mass" of RPers interested in this scenario, you could find a whole new RP area created with the side benefit being that for the most part, only those actively involved in the plot would go there. Thus no OOC nonsense, and no problems caused by non-participants jumping in with an incompatible style to disrupt things. (ie: You're WHAT? Uh...fine /spar. What do you mean that's not how we play...who's we?! etc, etc)

And if there's *not* enough interest to actually create a viable area in a neighborhood...then maybe that's a sign it's not such a good idea.

Logically, I agree with okokdir. Those arguing (in effect) that their level 20 burglar should be able to do anything against a level 75 fail in the logic dept. Would you argue that a 12 year old boy with a stick in his hand should have any chance at all against a fully trained and armored knight? Logically, no. The knight will laugh and perhaps spank the boy and send him home to his mom.

Originally Posted by Dworin

Those arguing (in effect) that their level 20 burglar should be able to do anything against a level 75 fail in the logic dept.

No....they don't. They just play a different game than you and Okokdir do. (FWIW, I'm in your camp. But just because WE play one way while others play another way doesn't make us right nor them illogical.) To people who don't take the game into consideration, level is meaningless. They are, in effect, using LOTRO as a basis for RP without the actual game having anything to do with it. Now *I* don't play that way, nor do any of the folks I regularly play with...but there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

The two styles are inherently incompatible, but neither has any innate value over the other. There is nothing more or less creative in either playstyle...only in the players themselves.

Originally Posted by Cris

I dont really think this sort of event really ''worths it'' in the first place. There are events/ideas that should be/have been in the server and are worth it far more than this one

I tend to agree with you, which goes back to my original post where I agreed with Malrex that I don't think the event would work. It only took me three additional posts to explain why. :P I'm a little slow apparently.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

Not necessarily. Don't forget, the original suggestion about the homestead (which was mine) included the notion that the chosen homestead be IC'ly considered a part of Bree proper. If this were to be used, then why couldn't the participants continue to use it as such, in effect creating a piece of Bree which could then be fought over and change hands as often as the story allowed it. If there is a "critical mass" of RPers interested in this scenario, you could find a whole new RP area created with the side benefit being that for the most part, only those actively involved in the plot would go there. Thus no OOC nonsense, and no problems caused by non-participants jumping in with an incompatible style to disrupt things. (ie: You're WHAT? Uh...fine /spar. What do you mean that's not how we play...who's we?! etc, etc)

And if there's *not* enough interest to actually create a viable area in a neighborhood...then maybe that's a sign it's not such a good idea.

In theory, I think it's the best option that exists for this sort of thing. But in the end, how would the neighborhood be used otherwise? If it's only going to be used for these conflicts, then everyone migrates back to Combe or Bree, then I know that I'm not really keen on the idea of putting Eobyre's ability to move through Bree freely at risk over an event like this.

Eo

Originally Posted by SaxonDog

In theory, I think it's the best option that exists for this sort of thing. But in the end, how would the neighborhood be used otherwise? If it's only going to be used for these conflicts, then everyone migrates back to Combe or Bree, then I know that I'm not really keen on the idea of putting Eobyre's ability to move through Bree freely at risk over an event like this.

I'm just playing Sauron's advocate here, as I'm certainly not invested in seeing this event come to pass. It's not my style and if it happens I won't be a part of it but...

Why would the chosen neighborhood have to cease to be a RP hotspot? I've never understood why the housing areas are so underused in this game. I've always thought they *could* be very much akin to player cities in SWG. Granted, you don't have the same level of control over a housing instance as we had over our cities in SWG (no ability to cityban) but on the other hand, it's not so easy for the uninvited to FIND a group there.

As an example...back when my kinship was heavy into our War of the Ring RP, the kinhouse neighborhood was our base of operations and we did an enourmous amount of RP there. In the entire time we were running these sessions, not one was ever interrupted or griefed. I would think that for a style of RP so prone to attracting interference (maybe some of it is desireable?) that this would be a haven.

If enough players are committed to creating/maintaining a long-term storyline, it would seem to me that choosing a neighborhood would be the best way to facilitate that. If the fear is that being "off the beaten path" will prevent new players from joining in, I'm not suggesting that Bree be abandoned by the participants, and when in Bree, promising new players who seem to be of like mind/like style can easily be informed of where the "bad side of town" can be found.

Would it work? I don't kinow. Is it worth a try? Only those who actually want to see this happen can say.

Personally, I don't see the problem with an Invasion of Bree event, in theory. It has a strong basis in lore. I mean, what do you think Defending the Prancing Pony and Thievery and Mischief are all about? Barliman Butterbur gives Gandalf a pretty detailed description (the words "thievery and mischief" are a direct quote from this passage in ROTK) of an invasion of Bree during the War of the Ring. Five people died and there was a large amount of fighting.

Now, one of the main problems is that the invasion Butterbur describes took place in winter just after a large snow storm (Hence all the snow in the skirmishes.) and in game Bree Town is pretty much stuck in time at a point in fall before Frodo gets there. I can see two ways to deal with this. Either the RPers involved simply pretend that it's winter in Bree during the event, and that they are a part of the actual lore invasion. Or they postulate that there was an earlier failed invasion of Bree, perhaps shortly after Frodo left, and that the mid-winter one was a second attempt.

The other problem seems to be that people don't want Bree town disturbed with these types of things. I don't remember such complaining when the Flood and the Plague event was running. So it seems that people aren't really opposed to large RP events played out in Bree, but to events involving the criminal element and combat. I find this odd since an invasion of Bree by "bad men" as Barliman put it is far more lore based than a flood and plague. Either that, or there are a bunch of new people in the community who are far more uptight.

I think such an event could easily run in Bree without disturbing people much if it is carried out strategically. Pick your targets, try to stay away from the places where people not involved in the event will be carrying out their business, and don't try to involve any random RPers without ooc permission. I'd suggest staying out of the AH, the vault, the craftng hall and the Pony. Target the jail, the town hall, the hunters lodge and the gates. Places of military/political value.

I think such an event could work just fine with proper planning and mutual respect between the participants. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

Personally, I don't see the problem with an Invasion of Bree event, in theory. It has a strong basis in lore. I mean, what do you think Defending the Prancing Pony and Thievery and Mischief are all about? Barliman Butterbur gives Gandalf a pretty detailed description (the words "thievery and mischief" are a direct quote from this passage in ROTK) of an invasion of Bree during the War of the Ring. Five people died and there was a large amount of fighting.

Now, one of the main problems is that the invasion Butterbur describes took place in winter just after a large snow storm (Hence all the snow in the skirmishes.) and in game Bree Town is pretty much stuck in time at a point in fall before Frodo gets there. I can see two ways to deal with this. Either the RPers involved simply pretend that it's winter in Bree during the event, and that they are a part of the actual lore invasion. Or they postulate that there was an earlier failed invasion of Bree, perhaps shortly after Frodo left, and that the mid-winter one was a second attempt.

The other problem seems to be that people don't want Bree town disturbed with these types of things. I don't remember such complaining when the Flood and the Plague event was running. So it seems that people aren't really opposed to large RP events played out in Bree, but to events involving the criminal element and combat. I find this odd since an invasion of Bree by "bad men" as Barliman put it is far more lore based than a flood and plague. Either that, or there are a bunch of new people in the community who are far more uptight.

I think such an event could easily run in Bree without disturbing people much if it is carried out strategically. Pick your targets, try to stay away from the places where people not involved in the event will be carrying out their business, and don't try to involve any random RPers without ooc permission. I'd suggest staying out of the AH, the vault, the craftng hall and the Pony. Target the jail, the town hall, the hunters lodge and the gates. Places of military/political value.

I think such an event could work just fine with proper planning and mutual respect between the participants. Good luck.

If I understand you correctly, you're more or less saying that the event should be a private event between members who are willing to participate. Which is what most of us have been saying this entire time. And while the flood/plague thing was before my time, I think that's a lot less intrusive than perhaps Bree becoming a brigand-controlled town. If criminals were to control Bree, why would any lawful RPer (Which tend to be the majority) stay in town? In essence, it would uproot a good number of kins who are based in Bree. And I understand that I sound like I'm entirely against change, which isn't the case, I just think that if this kind of event is a controversy in the first place, it's clear that it should not be attempted. If it can't make both sides of the fence happy, probably best to just not do it.

Originally Posted by Falcon_Trader

If I understand you correctly, you're more or less saying that the event should be a private event between members who are willing to participate. Which is what most of us have been saying this entire time. And while the flood/plague thing was before my time, I think that's a lot less intrusive than perhaps Bree becoming a brigand-controlled town. If criminals were to control Bree, why would any lawful RPer (Which tend to be the majority) stay in town? In essence, it would uproot a good number of kins who are based in Bree. And I understand that I sound like I'm entirely against change, which isn't the case, I just think that if this kind of event is a controversy in the first place, it's clear that it should not be attempted. If it can't make both sides of the fence happy, probably best to just not do it.

I think the point some are trying to make (and I might be wrong, but this is how I've always seen it) is that if this event IS a "private event between members who are willing to participate", why do those Kinships "based in Bree" have to react at all? If they don't want to be involved, it's very simple to just ignore what the others are doing. Eru knows folks get ignored all the time for other reasons. Yes? During the Flood and Plague, MANY people had no clue what was even going on. Many knew but chose not to be involved. Did it cause an uproar in the streets or any major harrassment by those who thought it was a stupid idea? No. Did those who were involved attempt to /force/ others to participate? No. It actually played out very nicely and was, in my opinion, a success for those involved.

Just for the record, I didn't have a character who /could/ be involved, at the time... due to IC reasons. But I watched from the sidelines and enjoyed it that way. Wait, I take that back.. I /did/ have an npc type alt involved in one small bit of the aftermath "cleanup" in Combe, when the brigands decided to take advantage of the situation. Lots of fun had by all concerned, who decided to join the cause.

I don't see why an event like the one suggested here couldn't be just as big a success for those involved. Yes, I agree the Pony shouldn't be suddenly crowded with IC fights and conflicts or whatever. But, if a PC Watcher is arresting/fighting a criminal somewhere in Bree, there's nothing /forcing/ any other "good guy" RPer to feel they /have/ to get involved if they don't want to. In /their/ version of Bree, they can just assume it's not happening and move on. I honestly don't get those folks who fuss about this kind of thing saying "well, if my character sees a criminal doing something wrong, he'd jump in to stop him", but then in the same post/sentence say things that imply "I don't like this type of RP so would never get involved in it". Just because your character /would/ get involved, doesn't mean you have to /make/ him get involved. And, that choice IS yours, after all... not the ones running the events.

While I, too, would /love/ to see a neighborhood set up as a "town" that brought in regular (dare I say nearly constant/permanent) RP, the way the houses are sort of makes it not really as viable as someplace like Bree. If we had no "hook" system - so we could have taverns with multiple tables and chairs that actually sat AT the tables - or were able to place crafting areas - so we could have IC weaponsmiths/tailors/etc. - making a neighborhood "town" would be fantastic and much more realistic. As it is now... you enter a kinhall that's supposed to be a tavern and sit on the floors. There are no side rooms to rent. There are no homes that could be RP'd as tailor shops or smithing shops or whatever... AND all of that is completely off-topic.. just my own wishes being typed out.. ::laughs::

I said all that to say this: While it sounds like a good idea in theory, it wouldn't work as well in practice, given the current state of housing neighborhoods, unfortunately. (and, again, only my opinion)

Just my two coppers.. plus lots of change....

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

No....they don't. They just play a different game than you and Okokdir do. (FWIW, I'm in your camp. But just because WE play one way while others play another way doesn't make us right nor them illogical.) To people who don't take the game into consideration, level is meaningless. They are, in effect, using LOTRO as a basis for RP without the actual game having anything to do with it. Now *I* don't play that way, nor do any of the folks I regularly play with...but there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

The two styles are inherently incompatible, but neither has any innate value over the other. There is nothing more or less creative in either playstyle...only in the players themselves.

I don't particularly disagree with this, but let me tell you why I find it illogical. (And I have no argument with those who disagree with me):

In the real world, there are 12 year olds with a stick in their hand, and there are fully trained, armed, and armored Marines. Logic clearly states who would be the victor in any confrontation between the two.

In this game there are level 15's and level 75's. Logic clearly states in a confronataion between those two, which would be the victor.

According to the RP of some, there are no 12 year olds with sticks in the game; everyone is born fully armed and armored and trained; the only nod to game mechanics is enough exp to get out of the starting instance. That, to me, (Note the *to me*) is not logical. It's sorta like picking up a novel and instead of reading it all, jumping to the final chapter, ignoring all the prior chapters, and calling it the book.

I understand that may be valid RP to some people, but it is not logical to me. Not for combat RP.

Originally Posted by Falcon_Trader

If I understand you correctly, you're more or less saying that the event should be a private event between members who are willing to participate. Which is what most of us have been saying this entire time. And while the flood/plague thing was before my time, I think that's a lot less intrusive than perhaps Bree becoming a brigand-controlled town. If criminals were to control Bree, why would any lawful RPer (Which tend to be the majority) stay in town? In essence, it would uproot a good number of kins who are based in Bree. And I understand that I sound like I'm entirely against change, which isn't the case, I just think that if this kind of event is a controversy in the first place, it's clear that it should not be attempted. If it can't make both sides of the fence happy, probably best to just not do it.

I have no characters that would participate in this event so anything I say is mere suggestion and has no influence on the end result. Nor have I read the entire thread to know what all the involved parties have proposed. However, from the OP I had the impression that the idea for the event necessitated that the criminal element would ultimately lose and thus that a criminal controlled Bree is not something we need to worry about.

But when it comes right down to it, as far as I'm concerned, if I can continue to perform concerts outside the Pony on Saturday nights without (much) disruption, Bree based RPers can do whatever they like. None of us has any right to say that a large scale event shouldn't take place in town. None of us own it. So as long as no one is griefed or harassed (and honestly, it seems more likely that those involved would be subject to griefing than those not involved) and the TOS is not broken there really isn't a problem.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

Sorry in advance to the rest of you for continuing this tangent, but after this nonsensical attempt at snark...

It was not an attempt at anything - it was a logical refutation of a line of thought that both you and Okokdir have pushed on others in multiple threads.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

WRONG. The post you attacked in no way states that is the *ONLY* way to RP well. Only YOU did that.

Okokdir merely stated HE takes the game into acount and would be unwilling to allow a L20 to emote his way to victory over a L75. And with very few exceptions...so would I. At no point did he criticize those who do, or say their RP was wrong, merely that that's not the way HE plays. And to forestall anymore snark about which of us should invest in hooked on phonics...let's look at his exact words:



Please demonstrate your contention that the above constitutes a statement that using the game is the "only good way to RP"...

Both you and he have done so on multiple occasions, attacking and demeaning all those who believe in using a little bit of imagination in their RP. Stating otherwise now is ridiculous in the extreme. Also, saying, "They're going to have to 'contend with us'" is unnecessarily combative.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

Really? And you suggest *I* need to learn to read? Let me refresh your memory:

Yes. You should.

My statement was that arbitrary levels only allow access to certain areas, pretending that it must play a direct role in cooperative storytelling IS failRP - meaning that it relies entirely upon the game mechanics to dictate story and plot.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

Which I reinterate, NOONE has done....except you.

Okokdir himself said those who believe that cooperative storytelling should be the hallmark of RP will have to "contend" with those like you who believe the only determining factor in RP is who "wins" in pure game mechanic's-based combat - which, other than allowing access to certain areas, and questing, is all level and stats are good for.

Also, what is "reinterate?"

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

And you close with yet another pontificarion on what is and isn't RP. Remind me to run my next plot past you to get your seal of approval since (apparently) you've been appointed final arbiter and god king of RP on Landy...*rolleyes*

Well, I am not the final arbiter on anything, though in this case, my input would clearly help you.

"Pontoficar" on that.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

They just play a different game.


... neither has any innate value over the other. There is nothing more or less creative in either playstyle...only in the players themselves.

+1

Id like to added something to the person calling the ‘levels ‘ an arbitrary thing. Perhaps for some of us, it is more than that. its part of our character’s story. For myself, and those ive played with, we’ve spent a long time RPing our way through a lot of this game, out in the field, going through a ton of quests as a group. Exploring all the regions for the first time and going through epic adventures that play a role in the lives and stories of our characters. Not just OOCing it and blazing through all of the game content.

That’s a lot of energy and time invested in our characters and their stories. Questing at a RP pace through parts at higher levels was no walk in the park. But in the end, its rewarding to have a character with literally YEARS spent being on the frontlines of the battle for middle earth. One who Has slain his way through goblin town and Angmar. Who has seen the depths of Moria and dark forests of Mirkwood. One ho has downed unspeakable foes, saved countless lives, completed epic journeys and lost many, many friends along the way…
...all so places like Bree can actually /be/ a place where people can get together, jam their music and dance their hearts out if they wish.

I wouldn’t call that arbitrary…I would call it earned. A true hero.
For some of us, our characters have earned that number…their skill set and weaponry…and in my opinion, a little respect from lippy lvl 7s who are fresh off some chetwood brigands and wearing their father’s armor.

I don't pretend to speak for Okokdir, but I suspect that "contend" means that if the criminal element takes over Bree, they are going to have to realize that some of us RPer's are not going to RP the way they want us to. The criminal element will have to contend with the fact that some of us will RP without regard for their takeover of Bree. Personally I think it will ruin the realism. (How is it possible to control a city but certain elements in the city are beyond your control at all?), but I do not think okokdir means more than that. For instance, say the kingpin comes to us and says "I run this town, you have to xyz," we're probably going to laugh and keep doing what we were doing.

Originally Posted by Dworin

I don't particularly disagree with this, but let me tell you why I find it illogical. (And I have no argument with those who disagree with me):

In the real world, there are 12 year olds with a stick in their hand, and there are fully trained, armed, and armored Marines. Logic clearly states who would be the victor in any confrontation between the two.

In this game there are level 15's and level 75's. Logic clearly states in a confronataion between those two, which would be the victor.

According to the RP of some, there are no 12 year olds with sticks in the game; everyone is born fully armed and armored and trained; the only nod to game mechanics is enough exp to get out of the starting instance. That, to me, (Note the *to me*) is not logical. It's sorta like picking up a novel and instead of reading it all, jumping to the final chapter, ignoring all the prior chapters, and calling it the book.

I understand that may be valid RP to some people, but it is not logical to me. Not for combat RP.

But from the horror stories of war, we have all heard small kids handing fully trained and armed Marines a doll with a pipebomb inside it.

Your points are all logical and valid and I'm not here to argue with your choice of rping. I rp with a lot of different people in the game with different rp styles and I try to match their preferred style when roleplaying with that person out of respect, or if its a rp style that I do not find enjoyable, I move on. I think I have even RPed with you a few times. But I wanted to share my opinion about levels and equipment vs. ignoring it. Not stating that its the best way or not, but just my preference.

I prefer to RP without levels or equipment--I do to an extent when it comes to heavily armored heroes and what not (not necessarily what color their magic items are but their outward appearance), but as for levels I choose to just ignore it. For one reason, it would hamper my RP if I rped my guy as a level 75 burglar. If we were rping an attack on a goblin war camp...instead of rping it out, trying to find a strategy or whatever, I would just say "Ill be right back" and one shot all the goblins in the camp and be back in 5 minutes. Or if I was mugging someone who was say, level 50...how would they have a chance to get away or not comply with my demands?.....that would be so boring to me. To me, that would reduce the amount of potential RP that could be had. On another note, why would my burglar raise levels in the first place if all the quests are all heroic....thats why I usually ignore most of the quests as it would go against my character icly.

Your level 75 character could walk right in and take on the whole city of Annuminas without dying. Could someone do that in real life? No, but of course this is just a game and the game mechanics can make your character do some ridiculously powerful things. If someone was rping that out in a tavern and boasting about it, don't you think your character would roll their eyes a bit?

When you are walking down the street in real life, can you point out everyone who has a blackbelt in karate or is combat trained? Sure, there may be a few clues, but I know I got a few small friends who I wouldn't want to mess with even though I'm bigger than them. One thing I have noticed with most RPers is that they introduce themselves to each other....why? because their character wouldn't know their name until speaking to them. Though as a player we can just check the floaty name. I know my pet peeve is people knowing what kin I'm in....how would their character know without asking? Just like I wouldn't be able to point to random people on the street in real life and tell you their profession without asking or overhearing them.


I get it that people get frustrated when a level 20 character says they are some overlord and try to give them lip. I get bothered by over the top things as well. But on the same note....do you laugh at other players who choose their character's hometown as Rohan on the character creation screen when they are too low of level to even visit that place?

And just for a final note...I'm still a bit confused why criminals keep getting accussed of harrassing low level players (remember, most of us criminal types ignore levels), and from this thread, it almost seems the other way around.

Originally Posted by stizzle

I wouldn’t call that arbitrary…I would call it earned. A true hero.
For some of us, our characters have earned that number…their skill set and weaponry…and in my opinion, a little respect from lippy lvl 7s who are fresh off some chetwood brigands and wearing their father’s armor.

Only if it fits the level 7's character and their personality.

As I mentioned earlier, if you roleplay the game that Turbine gave us, that's fine. As Lasendir mentioned, they're just different play-styles. One of my characters is going down the 'RP what you quest' line. It's an interesting change of pace.

OOCly, I give the same amount of respect to everyone, no matter their level or play style. I hope to receive the same respect in return.
ICly, I give the amount of respect my *character* would give.

If one of my several characters on Landroval is a no good low-life who respects no one, why would he respect you? Fear retaliation by stabbing, perhaps, if you look armed, but if he doesn't give a flying flip about 'the war' or anything outside of his own miserable existence, your character would most likely receive no respect from him.

On the other hand, if one of my characters is just a local orc slayer- a hero in his own right- there is possibly little difference between the orcs of Bree-land versus the orcs near Lorien. They're both orcs, and only hitpoints determined by a game says that they are harder. None of their skills or even appearances often say otherwise. I don't know about you, but my characters know nothing about hitpoints. Every orc dies as easily as other orcs, such as with a beheading or a sword straight through the gut (for the most part... Uruk-hai are stronger and all, but that's another topic) :P

There is conflict and drama in story-telling. I enjoy creating my own stories more often than playing by Turbine's set stories, even just as a guide to an RP event (I've done them way too many times ). Understand that, for many people, there is no leveling or 'advancement' or 'trainings' indicated by a number. Everyone, just like in the real world, is equal in being a living, sentient being for these players, whether you're level 6 or level 75.

The 'advancement' comes through story-telling only. Sometimes the stories are Turbine's stories, and you get the benefit of RPing in more places without angry boars killing you alongside a history supported by the game's events. Sometimes they are not, and the level 10 remains level 10 for two years, but has a deep, rich RPed history behind his character anyways. There is nothing wrong with either option.

/steps off soapbox

Originally Posted by Malrex

But from the horror stories of war, we have all heard small kids handing fully trained and armed Marines a doll with a pipebomb inside it.

Your points are all logical and valid and I'm not here to argue with your choice of rping. I rp with a lot of different people in the game with different rp styles and I try to match their preferred style when roleplaying with that person out of respect, or if its a rp style that I do not find enjoyable, I move on. I think I have even RPed with you a few times. But I wanted to share my opinion about levels and equipment vs. ignoring it. Not stating that its the best way or not, but just my preference.

I prefer to RP without levels or equipment--I do to an extent when it comes to heavily armored heroes and what not (not necessarily what color their magic items are but their outward appearance), but as for levels I choose to just ignore it. For one reason, it would hamper my RP if I rped my guy as a level 75 burglar. If we were rping an attack on a goblin war camp...instead of rping it out, trying to find a strategy or whatever, I would just say "Ill be right back" and one shot all the goblins in the camp and be back in 5 minutes. Or if I was mugging someone who was say, level 50...how would they have a chance to get away or not comply with my demands?.....that would be so boring to me. To me, that would reduce the amount of potential RP that could be had. On another note, why would my burglar raise levels in the first place if all the quests are all heroic....thats why I usually ignore most of the quests as it would go against my character icly.

Your level 75 character could walk right in and take on the whole city of Annuminas without dying. Could someone do that in real life? No, but of course this is just a game and the game mechanics can make your character do some ridiculously powerful things. If someone was rping that out in a tavern and boasting about it, don't you think your character would roll their eyes a bit?

When you are walking down the street in real life, can you point out everyone who has a blackbelt in karate or is combat trained? Sure, there may be a few clues, but I know I got a few small friends who I wouldn't want to mess with even though I'm bigger than them. One thing I have noticed with most RPers is that they introduce themselves to each other....why? because their character wouldn't know their name until speaking to them. Though as a player we can just check the floaty name. I know my pet peeve is people knowing what kin I'm in....how would their character know without asking? Just like I wouldn't be able to point to random people on the street in real life and tell you their profession without asking or overhearing them.


I get it that people get frustrated when a level 20 character says they are some overlord and try to give them lip. I get bothered by over the top things as well. But on the same note....do you laugh at other players who choose their character's hometown as Rohan on the character creation screen when they are too low of level to even visit that place?

And just for a final note...I'm still a bit confused why criminals keep getting accussed of harrassing low level players (remember, most of us criminal types ignore levels), and from this thread, it almost seems the other way around.

I agree with the missionaries position.

That said, guy's no amount of complaining is going to sway anyone one way or the other, it just make's people mad. Yes, you have done a lot of a work to get all that gear for raids, no one knows how hard that is more than I, (certainly not Morve, who gets free first ager's ) but when I have to take care of some level ten who thinks he is Bruce lee, I dont go off complaining about how unfair the world is because everyone does not agree with me, I bite the bullet, and get it done with. Yes, I worked for the raid gear, I grinded for the weapons, and I drove myself mad for the Rep, but the fact is, for all your armor, its luck that kills. Thats all Any combat is, and should be, luck. Skill improves that luck, but the lowest of Orcs can kill a king, just look what happened to Isildur. What I am trying to say here is, do what I do, deal with it, and get on with your life.

Now, I believe this invasion thing is a good idea, but bad placement. The homesteads would be ideal, and hey its still Bree-Land, so mayhap's we watchers could still blacken a few eye's.

I read this whole thread, in it's entirety - and my gast has been truly flabbered.

I thought there was going to be a Creep Invasion of Bree!!! - I would honestly pay TB points to lead my warg pack through Bree in a voluntarily layered timed session instance thingie, and gobble up as many of you delicious, nommable, bacony Freepsies as possible before we all got turned into fluffy rugs.

Oh well. Good luck with your endeavor anyway. I hope whatever it is works out!

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

I read this whole thread, in it's entirety - and my gast has been truly flabbered.

I thought there was going to be a Creep Invasion of Bree!!! - I would honestly pay TB points to lead my warg pack through Bree in a voluntarily layered timed session instance thingie, and gobble up as many of you delicious, nommable, bacony Freepsies as possible before we all got turned into fluffy rugs.

Oh well. Good luck with your endeavor anyway. I hope whatever it is works out!

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Maybe one day Hithy, maybe one day....

Originally Posted by stizzle

+1

Id like to added something to the person calling the ‘levels ‘ an arbitrary thing. Perhaps for some of us, it is more than that. its part of our character’s story. For myself, and those ive played with, we’ve spent a long time RPing our way through a lot of this game, out in the field, going through a ton of quests as a group. Exploring all the regions for the first time and going through epic adventures that play a role in the lives and stories of our characters. Not just OOCing it and blazing through all of the game content.

That’s a lot of energy and time invested in our characters and their stories. Questing at a RP pace through parts at higher levels was no walk in the park. But in the end, its rewarding to have a character with literally YEARS spent being on the frontlines of the battle for middle earth. One who Has slain his way through goblin town and Angmar. Who has seen the depths of Moria and dark forests of Mirkwood. One ho has downed unspeakable foes, saved countless lives, completed epic journeys and lost many, many friends along the way…
...all so places like Bree can actually /be/ a place where people can get together, jam their music and dance their hearts out if they wish.

I wouldn’t call that arbitrary…I would call it earned. A true hero.
For some of us, our characters have earned that number…their skill set and weaponry…and in my opinion, a little respect from lippy lvl 7s who are fresh off some chetwood brigands and wearing their father’s armor.

That's all well and good, but it has no bearing on cooperative storytelling.

One is either RPing or is not. Level and gear do not change that.

I have characters of all levels and (in game) power, but if the story calls for an ancient elven character and I have one who just happens not to be my CL75 character, I am not going to pretend he is somehow less powerful than my CL75 just because the game says so. That would be ridiculous.

The CHARACTER matters more than the video game toon.

Certainly it's a great thing when every character is CL75 simply because it allows more opportunity for questing RP and opens most locations to potential RP, but if someone is a GOOD roleplayer, their level does not matter. If someone is simply trying to "win" then they are a bad roleplayer whether they are a CL75 or a CL5.

I have never played any role playing game where players were able to arbitrarily pick and choose which game rules/boundaries were ones that they had to follow.

I guess I just don't get it.

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

I read this whole thread, in it's entirety - and my gast has been truly flabbered.

I thought there was going to be a Creep Invasion of Bree!!! - I would honestly pay TB points to lead my warg pack through Bree in a voluntarily layered timed session instance thingie, and gobble up as many of you delicious, nommable, bacony Freepsies as possible before we all got turned into fluffy rugs.

Fluffy Hithy

lol Hith, you funny
That would be even worse than what this thread suggests, we would get pounced out of nowhere and new players would be like O.o what is going on here?! am i in Bree??

Originally Posted by ''Cris'''

lol Hith, you funny
That would be even worse than what this thread suggests, we would get pounced out of nowhere and new players would be like O.o what is going on here?! am i in Bree??

Thats why I suggested it be a voluntary layer to enter. Peeps in Bree / Wherever could choose to have a layer where attacking creeps could pour in. Those who dont want it, click no. Simples.

I'm not in the business of eating lowbies, Bree is an important part of their game to progress. Those 75's however, sitting around in the Pony doing nothing....

I'd love to storm a pack through the windows and give them something to do

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

Thats why I suggested it be a voluntary layer to enter. Peeps in Bree / Wherever could choose to have a layer where attacking creeps could pour in. Those who dont want it, click no. Simples.

I'm not in the business of eating lowbies, Bree is an important part of their game to progress. Those 75's however, sitting around in the Pony doing nothing....

I'd love to storm a pack through the windows and give them something to do

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Oh, yeah. That'll help with the server over-population in a hurry.

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

Thats why I suggested it be a voluntary layer to enter. Peeps in Bree / Wherever could choose to have a layer where attacking creeps could pour in. Those who dont want it, click no. Simples.

I'm not in the business of eating lowbies, Bree is an important part of their game to progress. Those 75's however, sitting around in the Pony doing nothing....

I'd love to storm a pack through the windows and give them something to do

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Now that i am thinking about it..... creeps should be able to come in Bree, however they only attackable target would be Elves! lol That way we will get rid of elves been in Bree.. they will get griefed by wargs and they will no longer want to come there
anymore

Oh i almost forgot, there would be one exception to that rule: you would be free to atack all the criminals rpers and the ''mayor'' as well! There i said it

Seriously, if you want to attack Bree with criminals and make it a huge cooperative RP event, go for it, I don't care. Just leave me out of it, and don't cry about it if your level 15 tries to attack my 75 and gets nothing for his effort except an emote: "Estellost swats a mosquito." *shrug*

Given enough wargs - I could probably reduce the population of Bree by several orders of magnitude at short notice. That ought to help, no?

Mmmmm Bree-peep bacon - it is legendary! It should be tasted again, and determined wether or not it was as good as our wargie ancestors claimed it to be.

If however, you are referring to the servers - we can't help you there. Picket Turbine to feed the hamster, or complain to WB so they can upgrade from a 386SX to a DX2-66 at least.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

Given enough wargs - I could probably reduce the population of Bree by several orders of magnitude at short notice. That ought to help, no?

Mmmmm Bree-peep bacon - it is legendary! It should be tasted again, and determined wether or not it was as good as our wargie ancestors claimed it to be.

If however, you are referring to the servers - we can't help you there. Picket Turbine to feed the hamster, or complain to WB so they can upgrade from a 386SX to a DX2-66 at least.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Actually, I'm talking about Turbine letting creeps out of the moors. If they do that, I'm gone without a second glance back at the game.

Originally Posted by Dworin

Actually, I'm talking about Turbine letting creeps out of the moors. If they do that, I'm gone without a second glance back at the game.

And why would that be?

I'm not trolling - just genuinely interested. My view is the polar opposite - if they don't let us out of the Moors, I'm gone too. Mordor at the very least should be a Creep-infested area. I was disappointed Moria / Mirkwood / Isengard wasn't - but hey, it is what it is.

Anyway - I didn't mean to hijack your thread or anything. Good luck with those brave level 7's who will RP you to death with ultra-convincing emotes and some very harsh positioning. Or maybe just bad clothes.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

And why would that be?

I'm not trolling - just genuinely interested. My view is the polar opposite - if they don't let us out of the Moors, I'm gone too. Mordor at the very least should be a Creep-infested area. I was disappointed Moria / Mirkwood / Isengard wasn't - but hey, it is what it is.

Anyway - I didn't mean to hijack your thread or anything. Good luck with those brave level 7's who will RP you to death with ultra-convincing emotes and some very harsh positioning. Or maybe just bad clothes.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Let's just say I had all the PvP I ever care for in another game and do not ever want to PvP again.

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

It was not an attempt at anything - it was a logical refutation of a line of thought that both you and Okokdir have pushed on others in multiple threads.

Both you and he have done so on multiple occasions, attacking and demeaning all those who believe in using a little bit of imagination in their RP. Stating otherwise now is ridiculous in the extreme. Also, saying, "They're going to have to 'contend with us'" is unnecessarily combative.

Prove it. Link or quote the threads. I have *always* maintined that all playstyles are equally valid, that the only difference is what is or is not fun for the individual. You refuted nothing. And now you resort to outright lying.

Ridiculous in the extreme indeed...two points for irony.

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

My statement was that arbitrary levels only allow access to certain areas, pretending that it must play a direct role in cooperative storytelling IS failRP - meaning that it relies entirely upon the game mechanics to dictate story and plot.

What exactly is 'arbitrary' about a character's level? You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it does. Let me help you:

ar·bi·trar·y/ˈärbiˌtrerē/

Adjective:

Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. (of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.

As character level is a clearly defined system and offers the same opportunity for all players, there is nothing arbitrary about it at all.

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

Also, what is "reinterate?"

"Pontoficar" on that.

Really? That's all you've got? Jump on typos? Well, I suppose that is the hallmark of poor debate...and of those with no actual point to make.

And I'm done with this one. There is no point in responding to (or reading) posts from someone so petty as to be unable to admit when they're simply wrong. (Another hallmark of the immature/young teen crowd.)

Originally Posted by Okokdir

I have never played any role playing game where players were able to arbitrarily pick and choose which game rules/boundaries were ones that they had to follow.

I guess I just don't get it.

I think what they are arguing is that player "A" and player "B" can get together and come up with a set of RP rules and agree that those are the rules they will RP by.

What they cannot do is go to player "C" and say "These are the rules you have to play by." They can *ask*, but if player "C" says "No, I won't play by those rules", then they have no argument to stand on, and trying to force player "c" to play by those rules just gets them laughed at.

Originally Posted by Dworin

I think what they are arguing is that player "A" and player "B" can get together and come up with a set of RP rules and agree that those are the rules they will RP by.

What they cannot do is go to player "C" and say "These are the rules you have to play by." They can *ask*, but if player "C" says "No, I won't play by those rules", then they have no argument to stand on, and trying to force player "c" to play by those rules just gets them laughed at.

Actually this is quite accurate. This is why my opinion from the start was that I don't think this plot would work. Although, Lassiter brought up a good idea with the homeland location, but even then there would need to be a set of rules for combat and a lot of communication.

What's actually pretty cool about the server though is that different RP styles (and playstyles) have been going on since the beginning and for the most part, people still get along.

Originally Posted by Malrex

but even then there would need to be a set of rules for combat and a lot of communication.

Sure, but isn't that pretty much always the case when you set up RP between parties that aren't completely familiar with each other's styles/preferences?

Even in non-conflict based RP, there's usually a good deal of OOC communication going on.

Originally Posted by Laire

The 'advancement' comes through story-telling only. Sometimes the stories are Turbine's stories, and you get the benefit of RPing in more places without angry boars killing you alongside a history supported by the game's events. Sometimes they are not, and the level 10 remains level 10 for two years, but has a deep, rich RPed history behind his character anyways. There is nothing wrong with either option.

/steps off soapbox

While I understand your point, at the end of the day, what has the level 10 actually accomplished? A lot of talk, and that's it. Anybody can talk. The level 75's have accomplished things and earned (actually earned, you know well, because you have a 75 character.) rewards and titles and such things, they didn't stand around and just talk about what they're doing or have done. It's unlikely this level 10 has faced the goblins in the marsh, let alone the Orcs N of Bree. But then this level 10 (who has done very little except talk) wants to come to me at 75 and ask for a rule set that makes him equal, combat-wise, to my character? Are you kidding me? *Edit: Generic *you*, not specific *you*

As I've said, I have no problem with people who want to RP that way. Go for it, talk up a storm. At the end of the day, it's just talk. But talk does not impress me. Deeds do.