Thread: 'Invasion of Bree' - The Controversy. Your opinions and Input.

Rumors have been going around of 'A Invasion into Bree'. Rumor has it multiple criminal kin's have been plotting for a long period of time about it. - Some say its already happened, which resulted in a few fights, some burnt buildings, and Blah Blah Blah. I've been getting mixed feelings on this topic in general, overall. 'Yes, it sounds fun.', 'No. Its totally forced RP.', 'Sure, It could work, but the criminals would need to lose..' and then theres always the counters, and arguements and I wish I recorded the bout hour long debate I saw between numerous people. I want feedback, and reasons why you support your side. Not a story fit for a book-series, but not a single word, or a sentence. I personally believe such a event could work, *IF* It is well planned, severly advertised, VERY organized, and everything is accounted for, re-accounted for, and everything is updated and EVERYONE is kept in the loop. It would need to be very-well pish-posh polished and perfect.

Do I support it? To a extent; Yes. - I personally led a event, with 2 encounters, which involved over 50 in total, with well-oiled planning, and the feedback was overall; They 'Loved it'. Their words, not mine- I enjoyed it alot however. Now, I support it to the point where I believe it *Can* Happen, but I end my support the moment it gets unorganized. Could it be fun? Yes. Could it be hell? Yes, again. - Entirely depends on your side, your involvement, and a billion other details. Theres Pro's and theres Con's, considering the majority-rule, I am certain the badguys gotta lose in this, for it to be kept as a even small possbility, if any at all. From what I hear, Arion is alright with it, however I will be personally questioning around when I get the oppertunity, to all I can, who ever I believe would have even their finger in this extra sour toffy pudding.

Now, when I think Invasion, I think large-scale fighting, a attack coming to attack somewhere that is not within their territory, organization, claims or what ever you want to replace the word with. This personally is something I did in my own events; NPC combat. Now, theres a issue in its self as well.. I know damn well, someone will come out of the woodwork going 'Im chief Watashi Mushroom of the Hillmen, and I bring my three hundred warriors!' Or some bullock.. I believe personally, only in the most realistic means. A criminal working with Blackwolds- The most likely. Orcs? Uhh.. Not exactly. Halforc Bandits?.. That requires discussion and pages of Flame-On'rs. A realistic scale, from what I have asked Lore-Knowledged people, is that Bree-Land in overall, as a whole in the dire need of military forces, could supply around 500-700 Militiamen. Thats Militiamen; People with their own version of weapons and armour. Im talking Billy Bob Joe with his Pitchfork and hunting leather and that Pot-helmet he's got. Now. Obvious exceptions? Well, sure, maybe a few hundred have Swords, bows(Hunters) and shields or something, but then again that also comes down to a IC detail to prior-planning by the popullace(Players). Every point could be discussed.

The end result, as i've stated multiple times; People will most likely want the bad guys to lose.. Why? Well, come on, I realize you criminal players may want to be some Grand-Theft-Bree stuff with your G.T.B. styles, but Arion and The Watch aint going no where. Theres more people who are lawful, and upright, and enjoy how Bree RP is, in the overall, currently. It was decided years back, by nearly 5,000 People who voted; Arion won Justicar role, The Watch was founded, game over- take it to Calder Cob. Odds are, more then anything, that The Criminals would need to lose. Statistics don't even need to be braught in, but. The amount of good players and neutrals, when it comes down to it, will outnumber the Badguys. Plus, no one will take Bree-Town being ruled by bandit-lords and criminals seriously.. I mean its pretty much laughed at as is, considering the amount of criminal RP players there is as-far.

Give your personal opinions, your ideas, and keep it civil. Anything beyond a polite, civil disagreement, will result in a personal reporting. Keep it nice and clean.

I wholeheartedly want to see this happen. But I think that there's only one way it would work, and that is if the invaders are the White Hand or some proxy (which includes criminals). In the books, they took over the Shire and managed to get close to the same result in Bree-town by the time the hobbits returned, and so it is the most lore-based invasion that could occur. The other up-side to a White Hand invasion is that it leaves room for any size of army, so there need not be a disadvantage on either side because of who *has to win*.

Another thing to consider is the fact that the books do not mention anything specific in Bree-town happening during the time between the departure of Strider and the hobbits from the town to their return, even after the latter has happened, except the major conflict I mentioned above. It is not down-right lore-breaking for the Enemy to actually succeed, if by some stretch of luck the invaders are able to, as long as they eventually lose full control. Theoretically, an army could come, invade, succeed, then be thrown out when a resistance rises just to return and try to take it again in time for the hobbits to return.

Sounds fun, however the role players who ignore the game world physics (player stats/level/equip) are going to have to contend with those of us who do not believe their level 20 burglar is capable of causing harm to our geared out 75s (as they are not). *grins*

Personally I don't think the event would work. Too many different types of RP ways and views. It would generate too many OOC arguments and probably lead to greater rifts in the community. I could see it happenning in Combe or other surrounding towns first, where a lot of criminals hang out anyways, and where not as many people would have to see the RP invasion take place if they didn't want to be involved. For example, I wasn't involved, but the dwarven wars seemed cool and those who wanted to be involved weren't hindering other people's RP as it was in Gondamon.

Having said that, I DO think an 'invasion event' could create a lot of smaller plots leading up to the event....criminals trying to steal arms and armour of the town for the army to hinder the Watch, cutting off trade routes along the roads, the Watch trying to stop them, etc. But the invasion with a big war with NPC's, etc, I just think wouldn't go over well. These forums with the countless arguments vs. criminals are a good example of that and would probably just lead to more complaints.

My two coppers, for what its worth, is that whoever is plotting it should go after the smaller towns (Adso's Camp, Forsaken Inn, etc.)....have the Watch find out about the raid so that there is conflict, and see how it goes before taking on Bree. Also to throw in a bunch of other plots for people to RP out...maybe the Watch finds out about a spy that they have to hunt down as he/she has critical information, or maybe a criminal tries to lead the Watch on a goosechase while other criminals try to steal supplies for the war, maybe provide more bounties for bounty hunters, etc.

Originally Posted by Malrex

Personally I don't think the event would work.

I agree. The roleplayers of the community have a hard enough time meeting in the middle over issues that are much, much smaller in scale. This would be a cluster beyond all imagining.

Just my opinion. And of course, happy April Fool's Day to the lot of you.

Eo

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Sounds fun, however the role players who ignore the game world physics (player stats/level/equip) are going to have to contend with those of us who do not believe their level 20 burglar is capable of causing harm to our geared out 75s (as they are not). *grins*

+1

personally, i would be interested in a lot more of the rp if it didnt ignore such things. but a low level character walking around talking smack to people because he thinks he can just emote himself kicking everyone's butt is, well, lame.

hee-larious april fool's topic

Originally Posted by RandallSnow

hee-larious april fool's topic

No, this isn't a April fools topic, its a subject that is discussed more often then you would care to think or pay attention to. I am simply getting peoples own thoughts on it. As I also put; Give your side and reasoning, or don't post. If it also turns into arguments or it gets uncivil, reporting will be conducted. Please do not post further if you're not willing to contribute anything beyond a ill-aimed remark.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Sounds fun, however the role players who ignore the game world physics (player stats/level/equip) are going to have to contend with those of us who do not believe their level 20 burglar is capable of causing harm to our geared out 75s (as they are not). *grins*

That's bad RPing on your part - though it can also be bad RPing on their part if they god mode.

RP is cooperative storytelling. Game mechanics have absolutely nothing to do with that other than allowing for easier RP in certain areas.

Originally Posted by Wyndelleu

That's bad RPing on your part - though it can also be bad RPing on their part if they god mode.

RP is cooperative storytelling. Game mechanics have absolutely nothing to do with that other than allowing for easier RP in certain areas.

Wow, really? Another 'There is only ONE way to RP!! (mine) ALL ELSE BAD!!! person? *rolleyes* Got news for ya...this is a roleplaying GAME. Simply because one respects the GAME portion in no way means their RP is 'bad'.

Personally, I find people who create L10 'great warriors' to be the height of laughable. Want to be considered a credible threat to any of MY characters? Then actually BE one.

And FWIW, this is an RPG...not a chatroom with avatars. *ALL* RPGs incorporate the concept of character level. I would laugh myself silly at someone who sat down at a D&D table and proceeded to try and lord it over level 20 characters with their newly rolled level one. Yet that is *exactly* what you seem to be advocating here....so then, by *your* standards....D&D is 'bad RP'???

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

Wow, really? Another 'There is only ONE way to RP!! (mine) ALL ELSE BAD!!! person? *rolleyes* Got news for ya...this is a roleplaying GAME. Simply because one respects the GAME portion in no way means their RP is 'bad'.

Personally, I find people who create L10 'great warriors' to be the height of laughable. Want to be considered a credible threat to any of MY characters? Then actually BE one.

And FWIW, this is an RPG...not a chatroom with avatars. *ALL* RPGs incorporate the concept of character level. I would laugh myself silly at someone who sat down at a D&D table and proceeded to try and lord it over level 20 characters with their newly rolled level one. Yet that is *exactly* what you seem to be advocating here....so then, by *your* standards....D&D is 'bad RP'???

You need to reread what I said. I said the "L10 Great Warriors" are also pretty ridiculous much of the time.

RP is cooperative storytelling. The reason some fail at it is because they think it is a game they are supposed to win at all costs. This is why those who play the character level and video game mechanics above all card are usually very young and inexperienced roleplayers.

Certainly in game accomplishment is a nice thing, and, all things being equal, it's probably best when character accomplishment can be matched by in game achievements, but being beholden to arbitrary stat lines and levels at the cost of interesting storytelling IS bad RP.

For example, if the story would be enhanced by the addition (even tangentially) of an ancient elven presence, and someone has a character that is say, mid 40s in level, but is very accomplished at RPing that challenging role, then that person should play that character without fear of someone pulling some dumbass "my level is higher than yours, therefore you can't be what you say you are" BS.

Now, if that person is playing a lvl 40 ancient elf and lording over people and godmoding, then the problem is not the character level. The problem is, that person is a poor roleplayer.

Originally Posted by Travisimo

Another thing to consider is the fact that the books do not mention anything specific in Bree-town happening during the time between the departure of Strider and the hobbits from the town to their return, even after the latter has happened, except the major conflict I mentioned above.

Sure they do. Barliman Butterbur gives the hobbits and Gandalf the Reader's Digest condensed version of the whole Bree saga in The Return of the King :Homeward Bound.

Shortly after the first of the year (3019 T.A.) there is ONE fight. It happens in the course of a single night. Three men and two hobbits are killed on the Bree side. (Mat Heathertoes, Rowlie Appledore, Tom Pickthorn, Willie Banks, and one of the Underhills from Staddle.) Harry Goatleaf and Bill Ferny fight on the side of the ruffians (and Goatleaf is suspected of being the one who opened the south gate and let them in) but they lose the fight and spend the next few months acting as brigands attacking travelers on the roads. Some obviously went on to the Shire (Ferny at least) but the others must not be much of a threat if four armed hobbits and one old man (Gandalf) are enough to keep them from even trying anything.

Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter

Sure they do. Barliman Butterbur gives the hobbits and Gandalf the Reader's Digest condensed version of the whole Bree saga in The Return of the King :Homeward Bound.

Shortly after the first of the year (3019 T.A.) there is ONE fight. It happens in the course of a single night. Three men and two hobbits are killed on the Bree side. (Mat Heathertoes, Rowlie Appledore, Tom Pickthorn, Willie Banks, and one of the Underhills from Staddle.) Harry Goatleaf and Bill Ferny fight on the side of the ruffians (and Goatleaf is suspected of being the one who opened the south gate and let them in) but they lose the fight and spend the next few months acting as brigands attacking travelers on the roads. Some obviously went on to the Shire (Ferny at least) but the others must not be much of a threat if four armed hobbits and one old man (Gandalf) are enough to keep them from even trying anything.

Oh? I suppose I will have to go back and read that chapter

Anyway, if this is the case, I stand by my earlier post, but to fit it with the above, it would be preferable if it took place outside of Bree mostly, though I think the plot can still be in Bree as long as there is no full-fledged battle in the streets of the town itself. Combe and Staddle, and everywhere around it certainly, as someone above said. Without struggles in the town proper, would lower the OOC conflicts that might occur.

It would be difficult to organize, but it can be done, and I hope at some point it is.

Because of this mind set:

The Watch aint going no where. Theres more people who are lawful, and upright, and enjoy how Bree RP is, in the overall, currently. It was decided years back, by nearly 5,000 People who voted; Arion won Justicar role, The Watch was founded, game over- take it to Calder Cob. Odds are, more then anything, that The Criminals would need to lose. Statistics don't even need to be braught in, but. The amount of good players and neutrals, when it comes down to it, will outnumber the Badguys. Plus, no one will take Bree-Town being ruled by bandit-lords and criminals seriously.. I mean its pretty much laughed at as is, considering the amount of criminal RP players there is as-far.

I would be completely turned off by this type of RP.

It's like playing a game of poker and knowing your hand and knowing your opponents hand. If you know your going to lose, people are less likely to try, and those that know they are going to win become overly arrogant and create unrealistic RP. If there is no hope then people aren't motivate to try. You're pretty much saying because of a decision voted years back by a community that is no longer relevant to today's gaming community that one must abide by those laws. Communities change as old players leave and new players filter in. Perhaps if there was a new election every year that argument would hold weight. But to already say "Hey, you guys are going to lose and we are going to win....wanna play?" I just don't see that working.

Punishments I have heard or witness in Bree. Fines, jail time, whipping, banning, hanging

You're asking criminals to get involved in RP purposely risking the above punishments and knowing in the end they will lose. What do the good guys have to lose? Death? I don't kill unless given OOC permission and I know many others don't as well. If you want something like this to succeed and people to plot and plan you have to be willing to give some. Make compromises so BOTH sides have fun. Give the crims something to fight for, the hope to actually have a chance for a win. I think Combe is a great idea. But make if the crims want it...make them earn it. Make them bleed for it and if they succeed then don't throw a fit but be good sports and let them keep it.

But I don't see this ever succeeding unless there was an organized OOC meeting, and rules set out. Arion has power because people are gracious enough to allow him to arrest them, and punish their character. They are gracious enough to allow those that play Watch characters to do the same. This is not a "right" The Watch has been given to enforce on their peers. The question is, can the good guys be gracious enough to allow criminal rule in an outlaying town?



Thanks for letting me voice some concerns.
And you guys are doing awesome ignoring the trolls and keeping the topic on track.

I would say the Rangers would have stopped anything big, but they left.

Honestly, an event like this would be interesting, but it would take someone really charismatic and active to organize it. It would need long preparation and a lot of warning beforehand.

Originally Posted by Travisimo

Oh? I suppose I will have to go back and read that chapter

Anyway, if this is the case, I stand by my earlier post, but to fit it with the above, it would be preferable if it took place outside of Bree mostly, though I think the plot can still be in Bree as long as there is no full-fledged battle in the streets of the town itself. Combe and Staddle, and everywhere around it certainly, as someone above said. Without struggles in the town proper, would lower the OOC conflicts that might occur.

It would be difficult to organize, but it can be done, and I hope at some point it is.

I have to agree. I think such a conflict would be best outside of Bree proper and rather in Combe, or in the wilds outside of Combe, or in between Combe and Archet, or something of like.


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Why not do this in some town in the Shire? I bet the Bounders of the Shire would like to get involved, though that can be taken up with them.

Originally Posted by Laire

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Thank you, that is very handy.

Also, to be on-topic, I think something in between Combe and Archet was attempted once and it didn't turn out well there either.

However I don't know the details, it was about the time I had to quit for a while. :-\

Let me be clear: I think that with careful planning, these types of events could work out wonderfully. However, the things you can't plan for is what turns them into a flame-fest. The "random" element, such as the folks who either just happen to walk by as the event is going on and join in, throwing things off balance, or the ones that show up and godmode/metagame or even the ones who simply are there to troll. Having it in an area that's easily accessible to lower-levels increases that risk.

Unfortunately, the further out you go, there are fewer strategic locations that aren't already overrun by NPC monsters, so moving the event out to a remote location would lessen the importance of defense or attack.

Again, just my opinion.

Eo

Originally Posted by Imadwarfdude

I personally believe such a event could work, *IF* It is well planned, severly advertised, VERY organized, and everything is accounted for, re-accounted for, and everything is updated and EVERYONE is kept in the loop.

Starting with me, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

So, what happened with this so called invasion of Bree? It's been over a month now and I have noticed no difference.