Thread: Pwnt by Lightning T1? Really? ...how?

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Why do wardens lack experience in groups? Wardens have been out since Moria. This means they had all of Moria, Mirkwood, and ROI to learn how to tank. Trust me, it isn't lack of experience for why a warden is bad unless they're fairly new.

And for the CA stats: does "HITS" include hits that were partially b/p/e?

Truth. The "experience" excuse doesn't really work anymore. Even if you only get into 1 out of every 10 groups you try for, you've had over 3 years to get the fundamentals by now. Of course like you said this doesn't apply to newly created Wardens. On a related note, I've yet to find all of these Warden shunning groups. The vast majority just don't know much about us. If they ask for a Guardian in /LFF and you send them a tell saying you'll tank, most of the time they will accept you in my experience (not just me but other Wardens I see). I just don't buy that there's this large contingent of Wardens who are denied access to all the groups they try to get into.

To answer your question, yes any time you take damage (also I believe "absorbs") will count as a "hit" in CA.

Originally Posted by thunderchickn

Truth. The "experience" excuse doesn't really work anymore. Even if you only get into 1 out of every 10 groups you try for, you've had over 3 years to get the fundamentals by now. Of course like you said this doesn't apply to newly created Wardens. On a related note, I've yet to find all of these Warden shunning groups. The vast majority just don't know much about us. If they ask for a Guardian in /LFF and you send them a tell saying you'll tank, most of the time they will accept you in my experience (not just me but other Wardens I see). I just don't buy that there's this large contingent of Wardens who are denied access to all the groups they try to get into.

To answer your question, yes any time you take damage (also I believe "absorbs") will count as a "hit" in CA.

The lack of experience argument doesn't apply to me if I were to trying to use it in regards to myself but most of the wardens I have run with lately that are really bad, the ones who give everyone a bad name, have no idea what they are doing, either because they never bothered to learn or because they were never given the chance.

Yes the warden class has been out since moria but how many of us are there left. I know one other active warden, on my entire server, I remember from those days. The majority of wardens, playing now, started after mirkwood if not after f2p, they didn't run GS every day for a year or even ever run forges, FG, Skum, or 16th, they never tank turtle at 60, they never sat there interupting Gorothul because the champ had better dps and you could do it just as well as he could once your threat was up. These people don't seem to know anything about tanking they don't build enough threat to prevent the mobs from loosing interest, they ignore mobs on the healer or hunters they don't understand positioning or tactics more complex then spam one or two gambits until the mob gives in. I actually had to explain to a level 75 the other day that determination was the stance you wanted to be in to get threat when he was off tank in roots. He didn't want to believe me kept going on that attacking and dps would pull the mobs to him. Some groups will accept wardens but alot won't accept one they haven't run with before it depends on what thier experience with wardens are and how desperatly they want to complete the content. Maybe it's different on your servers but on Vilya there is a decent number of people who seem to prefer to wait around until the group gets bored and breaks up rather then try a warden as tank in anything serious and I have been told directly that wardens can't tank stuff I have soloed. I will admit I don't like tanking raid level stuff it's a pain and any mistake can cause a wipe but I have and I can do it.

These argument are getting so circular I would almost prefer that we stop comparing ourselves to guards. There is no way we can ever beat them at thier own game maybe with a little more dps we can take over for champs, don't know, don't care anymore. At least then the arguments would change.

Does anyone even know what the argument is let alone what side they are on anymore I thought I was on the side that wardens are as a class not as good as guards in raids but better in groups but I seem to be defending the position that many wardens are inexperienced and that a certain segment of non wardens through ignorance of our class and contact with the aforesaid inexperienced players prefer to try to find guards over the available warden.

There seems to be 2 sides to this argument niether of which is that wardens are as good as guards in raids. The one side seems to believe that we need a mitigation boost and ignores any other improvements to the class as if they don't change anything. The other side naively tries to pretend that everything is going according to plan and while we can't be real tanks thats okay because (I'm not sure what the consolation should be here). I lean towards the second group I want to see what wardens are like after the bugs have been worked out and they have some data on the balance issues.

The problem is that we will never get more mitigation and at this point it would not solve the problems since they would have to redesign the class again if they gave it too us. So you might as well stop asking and come up with something else anything else I am sure Orion would be more inclined to any suggestion over the tired old give us mitigation cries. I know it would be nice if they caved but not going to happen not today not next week probably not next year, they might remove the cap but that is not at Orions level it would have to be agreed to much higher up. The other side can be just as bad alot of them have a I'm good enough to compensate for any problems and my kin will pick up the slack, why can't you and yours.

Turbine messed up they unintentionally nerfed us badly in multiple different ways and at such a fundimental level that it would require rewriting alot of the game or removing all the new content of the last year to simply put us back together so they are trying to fix us within the limitations of the game system without making us gods by giving us the mitigation. They have given us better heals, better BPE, better damage, better critical protection, better just about everything excepting mitigation, unfortunatly the current end game raid was designed for tanks with high mitigations. Maybe the next raid will require good BPE or that the tank be more then 30m from the rest of the group or that you deal with 10 adds. Maybe our role will be DPS or Off tank instead. It is impossible to tell what the future will hold and what solutions they will come up with. I have played through so many changes to wardens at this point that it is barely recognizable as the same class and as long as they don't make out auto attack animations delay gambit builders again I will be happy.

Originally Posted by khaipur

Does anyone even know what the argument is let alone what side they are on anymore I thought I was on the side that wardens are as a class not as good as guards in raids but better in groups but I seem to be defending the position that many wardens are inexperienced and that a certain segment of non wardens through ignorance of our class and contact with the aforesaid inexperienced players prefer to try to find guards over the available warden.

I think there's too much made about the whole "Wardens vs Guards" after U6. We're pretty close now, I don't think there's anything a Guard can do that I can't (solo tanked T2 Shadow the other night without Shield Brother, one of the last things I really wasn't sure if a Warden could do).

The lines are blurred, and I think it will finally be a toss-up as to which tank you take for anything once DC gets fixed and we have a legitimate short (relatively) cooldown survival skill akin to Pledge.

This will have no immediate effect on the stigma surrounding Wardens, but I still don't think it's that bad. I can't remember ever being flat out denied a group. Once in a long while I will have to do some lobbying if it's a new player that probably has no idea what a Warden even is, but I have never been flat out rejected just because I'm a Warden. I think too many Wardens use that as a crutch, allowing that to be their excuse for not being a good tank.

Originally Posted by Loki_D.d.G

It doesn't? So, mitigations and avoidances don't scale past lv75?

I'm not in-game to check if this was changed, but I know BPE always used to explicitly say "against level xx enemies", whatever your level was. Mitigation does not. So overcapping block helps if you're fighting something higher than your level, while overcapping mitigation would not.