Thread: The Overpower(ed?) Guardian in a PvE group

As the thread title already indicates I am looking for some input on how it is like to play an Overpower traited Guardian in PvE content, particularly group content. Maybe a little background information will help to better understand th question.

My main is I Hunter, and I like playing her dearly despite the issues that currently plague the class, most prominently for me their threat problems in raid content. But that is a story for another subforum and another time. Now that Hunter is level capped and geared out and all those fun slayer deeds are ground to bring her virtues up, and so for a little relaxing fun between raids it is time for an alt.

Since as a Hunter I always had to keep things at a distance and fiddle around with traps and slows and what not for a change I am looking for a class that can just go toe to toe right into an opponent’s face and smack them around good. The natural fit for that description would be the Champion. Burglars again are just too much of a trickster for my taste with all their positional damage and stealth and such. Champions have three main problems though:

1. There are so many of them
2. They are only good at DPS. Mind you, the main purpose of that alt should be melee DPS, but being able to do something else for a change is appreciated.
3. Hobbits can’t be Champions (who came up with that stupid restriction?)

So I was thinking why not try a Guardian instead? Problem is, I do not have the time to play both a Champion and a Guardian to 75 in the near future to then determine which is the better fit for what I want. Which brings all of you into the picture. Bring on all the helpful and humorous comments regarding what it is like to be an Overpower traited Guardian at level 75 in PvE. Mind you, I would not be averse to tanking my fair share, but I would also want to be a melee DPSer a significant amount of times.

Some specific questions to address:

• How is the overall design of that traitline? Is it even suited for PvE group content or more a leveling and PvMP tool?
• How is the power/threat management in prolonged fights?
• How is the acceptance if you want to join a group as DPS.
• How is the acceptance once you roll on Might items?
• How does the Overpower Guardian match up to the Champion DPS and utility wise? How big is the DPS gap?
• Whatever else you want to mention

So bring it on.

I dont have a guardian but i would like to say a few things:

1st of all champs are not only dps, they can tank quite well, most 6men (if not all) at 75 can be tanked by well geared champions.

Overpower guards seem to deal quite a nice dps, thing is not many will take u as dps, considering tanks are harder to find... so even if u get accepted in a run people are likely to ask u "pls tank if possible, we need a tank more than dps". So id say guards can be good at dps (not as good as pure dps classes ofc) but still most time u will be asked to tank, 80% of times id say..

if u want a melee dps class play champ.

p.s. warden could be an alternative but dunno how good they are with the recent changes.

My experience is that Overpower guard will not be taken as DPS into groups with the exception of skirmish raids and some kin runs. Don't expect PUGs to take you with them as DPS.

Now to answer your specific questions:

1. Overpower guard is a reactive DPS. You need parry reactions to access some of your strongest skills. That means you either have to have aggro or put Protection by the Sword on the tank and be fairly close to him. Still, you might have bad luck and no parry reactions in some periods, resulting in bad DPS. We don't really have that many skills to use without parry. I would LOVE to see the change champs got, where their skills change depending on their stance. Without parry, you are really locked to Guardian's Ward, Vexing Blow, Overwhelm and Brutal Assault (horribly long animation on this one). I hate to see half of my skill bar grayed when in Overpower
2. Power usage is high in Overpower. You can try to mitigate it by slotting certain traits/legacies (like power restore on reactions) and some high end gear (like OP isengard set bonus). There are some skills to regain power but on longish cd. Power pots and Lore Masters are your biggest friends. Threat wise, you should be fine, unless you go all crazy with traited Vexing Blow + Whirling Retaliation in AoE situations.
3. Like I wrote above, acceptance of guards as DPS is really bad unless you run with friends/kinnies or in skirmish raids (where it does not really matter what spec you play).
4. If you do get in a group as DPS, you should be allowed to roll on Might items along with other classes. I roll on Might items in skirm raids if they are an upgrade for me. Nobody objected so far.
5. DPS wise we are far away from champs. We can build somewhat high Physical Mastery but our crits strike for much less due to lack of devastate magnitude legacy (or was it critical multiplier?, I don't remember). You have to sacrifice alot to build such high P. Mastery. Utility wise, our strongest ability is starting fellowship maneuvers. We have some skills for it and if a group does not have a burg, we can do well in that department.

In its current state, I see Overpower as mainly Moors/ leveling stance, but hope that one day we will get long awaited buffs to make us viable DPS.

In those dark days seem that every class need to do DPS... but ehi there's class that are designed for DPS and other that are designed for other stuff!

I see so many LM in DPS, RK in DPS, Min in DPS, we really need guards take the spot of DPS in raid|skirmish?

LOL no!

If you want DPS use Champ, forgot the Guardian.

Originally Posted by Arlecchino79

In those dark days seem that every class need to do DPS... but ehi there's class that are designed for DPS and other that are designed for other stuff!

I see so many LM in DPS, RK in DPS, Min in DPS, we really need guards take the spot of DPS in raid|skirmish?

LOL no!

If you want DPS use Champ, forgot the Guardian.

From original post, it looks like OP wanted to play a Hobbit, so your suggestion is not really that useful.

I would agree with the above main points; no one want an OP guard in a PvMP group, your dps very is inferior to champs, you require parry responses to really dps effectively.

However, speaking specifically to the moors, you will have a lot more latitude. Raid leaders in the moors generally take tanks to help shield wall the healers, so that would be one of your duties that you could not perform in OP (at least I assume you need a shield to shieldwall). But going OP in the moors can be fun. The creeps don't really bother you in group since its hard to kill you, so you can run around smacking and harassing people. And in 1v1 (or even 2v1) you run a relatively low risk of dying (assuming good play and gear). The drawback is that many creeps won't fight a really well tricked out guard, given the difficulty.

All in all, the guard can be a fun class in the moors (I know of several running around on Brandywine) but seriously, if you are a DPS #####, you should really consider a champ.

PS getting groups while levelling is waaaay easier as a guard, even if you are expected to tank.

You're definitely very mistaken if you think all a champ can do is DPS. They are very solid tanks. They can't tank everything, but they can do quite a bit and do more DPS while tanking than a Guard does.

Can a Guard do decent DPS? Sure - if you have a full set of might gear, including LIs, jewelry and armor. With all that you can do about as much DPS as any other class who does the same thing. If you don't want to tank, don't play a Guard. OP is just a little something for us to play with and make leveling and deeding a bit easier. My kin has me DPS occasionally, but only if there's another Guard or Warden in the group who really wants to be main tank.

It really seems like you want a champ, but if you really want to play a hobbit I'd look into Warden. For a non-hobbit option Captain might be another option. They do reasonable damage in red-line and don't need to swap in as much gear for it.

I'd suggest (since you really want to be able to play as a Hobbit) that you try out a Warden atleast to level 20 to see if you like it. Warden's can probably do more dps than even an Overpowered traited Guardian when the Warden is traited for dps. Also you now have the option of a ranged stance and of course a tank stance. It is very different and more proactive than a Guardian but I think it would be well worth a try for you unless you have tried one before and already know you don't like it.

A slightly different perspective...

Do you want to spend your time fighting expectations, "I know you asked for DPS class, I'm an OVERPOWER guard." "I know you already have a tank, I can DPS. No, not as much as a burg or hunter or LM or RK or mini, but more than a captain!"

Or do you want to spend your time just playing?

Are you willing to give up your race choice for that issue?

Champions tank great, they main tank great, and can tank anything.

Warden is certainly another consideration, but if the burglar's skill variety doesn't interest you, I'm guessing wardens wouldn't either.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Champions tank great, they main tank great, and can tank anything.

Tower of Orthanc - Ring of Acid Challenge?

Originally Posted by Gattsu_EU

Tower of Orthanc - Ring of Acid Challenge?

Any ToO T2 imo. Most champs will get pounded into oblivion when they grab agro in there.

Originally Posted by Sagit

Some specific questions to address:

• How is the overall design of that traitline? Is it even suited for PvE group content or more a leveling and PvMP tool?
• How is the power/threat management in prolonged fights?
• How is the acceptance if you want to join a group as DPS.
• How is the acceptance once you roll on Might items?
• How does the Overpower Guardian match up to the Champion DPS and utility wise? How big is the DPS gap?
• Whatever else you want to mention

I originally built my Guardian with the mindset of only playing her as a tank. The first time that I even touched Overpower was at level 65 in a raid because I was the off-tank. As aa result of this I also started doing more solo and group content in Overpower. My overall first impressions were that: omg am I ever squishy; I keep running out of power; my dps sucks. That was also at a time when almost all of my stats were capped at 650 (except of course for will and fate). However, I did not have legendaries dedicated for Overpower.

Then Rise of Isengard came out and the removal of the stat caps. It was at this time that I decided that I didn't want to solo the new area slowly using a sword and shield so I decided to invest some time towards my Overpower build. This change of mentality was also the first steps towards learning how to play in Overpower. The biggest initial hurdle was dropping the tank mentality, the second was learning how to manage my power. After mastering those two hurdles I have never looked back on Overpower.

Now my Overpower DPS build boasts 3 legendary items dedicated for Overpower, and at least an inventory bag full of gear and jewellery for Overpower. I have two weapons; one for single-target dps and another for AoE dps; and a belt. My jewellery focus on Might, but I try to find items that have a secondary stat as either Vitality or Agility.

My current Overpower build that I use for solo and group play typically consists of around;
10k morale
2.4k power
1.7k Might
700 Agility
1.2k Vitality
19% Crit
101% Physical Mastery

In an extreme Overpower build which I would only use if I had the utmost confidence in my tank, or if I was doing solo content features;
6.8k morale
2.6k power
1958 Might (with buffs, flag and trail food I can get this between 2100 - 2200 Might)
622 Agility
643 Vitality
20% Crit
111% Physical Mastery (with buffs, etc.. I've seen this over 140% Physical Mastery)

I rarely use my extreme Overpower build because unless the tank is a Warden * spamming * EoB (currently does 80k + worth of damage threat) than the tank is not going to be able to hold aggro off of me and I don't want aggro.

Even so, with my regular Overpower build if I go hardcore dps I'll still usually pull aggro off of the tanks. The issue is that my belt has +3% Perceived Threat on it, Vexing Blow generates threat, and Whirling Retaliation leeches fellowship threat. So in groups where I am pulling aggro I have to lay off on those two skills a bit and use Sweeping-Cut as my AoE dps. Going single-target on the raid assist target initially and then AoE'ing can also help a bunch for aggro.

In terms of how my dps compares to that of a Champ... many people would debate and call blasphemy on my part but I'm fairly certain that my dps build can out dps the majority of Champs. My Champ buddy that I regularly play with has over 1700 Might and over 19% crit chance.. sure he'll often hit for over 7k, but when we compare our dps for the encounter we're usually pretty close to eachother, which really pisses him off because I'm supposed to be a tank class. I will never get the huge crit/dev's that they get, but my sustained dps is very consistent and reliable, and does not require fervour. For a comparison, doing Foundry T2 I was average 1000 - 2000 dps on the individual trash mobs. For single target my dps does drop a bit but the one thing that I bring to the table in boss fights are CJ's and my Stagger/Overwhelm debuffs.

My highest sustained dps recorded over 16 minutes of * combat * time is 1634. My highest dps for an individual encounter has been as high as 3100.

I've been pretty lazy but I have a YouTube channel where I post various videos. I've been working on a video regarding my different Overpower builds, along with an Avoidance build, and a Tank build.

But to answer your question in summary; Overpower can be very fun. You can get a very reliable sustained dps. The one nice thing is that you get decent dps, CJ's, and you still have high mitigations. Currently if I spec for it I can get my tactial mitigation in Overpower to around 60% without sacrificing too much of my dps.

In terms of being accepted into pug groups... well, be prepared to be turned down probably 70-80% of the time. Sorry, but the majority stereotype is that Overpower Guards cannot dps, and that our dps is comparable to that of a dps cappy or dps warden, and that we have power issues. Of course, I have really nice gear and jewellery, and three legendaries dedicated for overpower. I also play overpower probably 95% of the time now.

How do I ask to be invited? --> /tell #### Overpower DPS?
I pst with the expectation to be turned down. Once in a while I'll get an invite and it's usually from people that either have already grouped with me, are fans of my YouTube channel, or kin mates (not my kin mates because I refuse to join a kin) that have played with good Overpower Guards that will invite me.

Qouting from the other relavent thread.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

An evening in the Moors tonight of flipping keeps on my Overpower Guardian. This was done with 4 people total; Guardian, Warden, Champ, Captain. During the 26 minutes of combat time we were able to flip Lug, TA, TR, Isen and capture a Relic.. all by ourselves.

Lug, Isen, TA and the Relic each took approx 3-5 minutes. TR we spent a lot longer on due to Creep resistance, which we still managed to kill the Tyrant but wiped and tried to come back and flip the flag but wiped again, but we still got our commendations.

For this particular setup I was running approx 1900 Might, 900 Agility. The next time that we do this I'd like to go in running over 2200 Might in my glass cannon build.

If there was one thing that lowered the overall dps it was that Creeps kept on trying to prevent us from flipping their keeps and capturing the relic.

The OP states pretty specifically that he's talking about PvE content (even in bold). I'm not sure why there is so much moors stuff in here.



Imo, you should roll a champ. OP is not what it was, and won't be improved while Graal is our dev.

Originally Posted by Evendale

The OP states pretty specifically that he's talking about PvE content (even in bold). I'm not sure why there is so much moors stuff in here.

Imo, you should roll a champ. OP is not what it was, and won't be improved while Graal is our dev.

This was my only Moors comparison, which wasn't PvMP but rather PvE because we were flipping keeps. I've also posted about Foundry, RoF dps and Isen 3-man dps.. as well as skirmish raid dps... all of which over the course of the instance my dps ends up floating between 1000-1500 dps, with individual encounters peaker over 3000 dps.

The point is to show people that Guards can dps and that we can do it well. If properly geared and traited, with proper rotations power will not be an issue. As long as we get our Parry events we can and will out-dps a equally geared/spec'd Champion. We also don't have to worry about fervour, and if we do pull aggro we can actually survive.

We have three huge AoE attacks, big bleeds, and if you trait your crit chance to be high then you are essentially guaranteed a stun on Overwhelm and To the King. Our debuff not only slows the target but also makes them attack slower.

Since perfecting my build I have not met a single Champ that has been able to out-dps my Guard.

The ONLY thing that I want from Graalx2 is an aggro dump. Everything else about our dps is good as is. He simply cannot give us a critical multiplier legacy else our dps will be leagues above that of a Champ.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

I've also posted about Foundry, RoF dps and Isen 3-man dps.. as well as skirmish raid dps... all of which over the course of the instance my dps ends up floating between 1000-1500 dps, with individual encounters peaker over 3000 dps.

As long as we get our Parry events we can and will out-dps a equally geared/spec'd Champion.

Since perfecting my build I have not met a single Champ that has been able to out-dps my Guard.

You must play with some terrible Champs. Without any First age weapons, and without the new crafted relics or Limlight reputation gear, my best single-target parse on Acid in ToO (3 burgs present) was just over 3,2k (I have since then gotten a first age and the new crafted relic, but haven't had the chance to parse yet ).

If you've managed 3k single-target on your Guard (I'm guessing you mean AoE, but it's not clear in your post so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt), well done. Still doesn't top my Champ's 3.2k, which as described above still had room for improvement in the gear department.

AoE fights with ~5 enemies, I've been parsing 4k+ consistently (usually about 4.5k on 5 targets IIRC) as long as I don't have to worry about threat (again without a first age weapon), with peaks of 5k on >5 targets (not even going to mention what kind of numbers are possible in places like Hele spiders with Winds of the Storm slotted).

Granted, OP isn't necessarily *bad* DPS (especially 8-10 target AoE), but like Evendale said, it isn't what it used to be. Certainly isn't better than Champ DPS given equal skill and gear.

There are a couple key factors with Champ dps. Number one is Fervour. Number two is that a Champ cannot pull aggro off of the tank or they will die. If a Champ does pull aggro and needs to use bubbles then they are wasting fervour. If they need to dump aggro then again they are wasting fervour. Every interrupt is fervour, every stun is fervour.

If a tank has aggro then an OP-Guard can put Protection By The Sword on them for Parry events. If the OP-Guard does pull aggro then they can pop Guardian's Pledge twice, which makes them very survivable for 15 seconds each pop and also supplies a steady stream of Parry events which further increases my dps. We can also still trait for 5s interrupt by putting the legacy on a dummy weapon.

I've never done 3k single target dps in a raid as I'm always tank spec'd due to the stereotype placed on Guard dps, of which then my single target dps in non-existent. I haven't paid much attention to my single target dps but my largest recorded hit on a boss outside of Draigoch for on-level content was 8700 damage. For other content such as 3-man, 6-man, Draig and Skirmish Raids and PvMP I refuse to spec for tank anymore. Usually when I'm doing content on my OP-Guard there are at least a handful of targets, the more the better imo. In three quick-release skills I can do a total of 30 attacks in which I'm typically crit/dev'ing 30% of the time on. On top of that I find that my To The King usually crits over 50-60% of the time, where each crit is a CJ, which I can do infinite times on a 5s cooldown.

It's one thing for a Champ or other dps class to post a high dps number for a single encounter, but over an instance the rollercoaster ride drops their average. I'll have the occasional encounter spike over 3k dps, but over the course of the instance I'm almost never below 1000 and more commonly between 1000-1500 dps, which is very good for the duration of an entire instance. I don't suffer from the rollercoaster ride of spike dps, mine is very consistent and reliable.

Here's actually a challenge that anyone is welcome to. This is from doing the Forges of Isengard. First thing I do is hit my sprint and round up every single target and AoE everything to death, not leaving a single target in my round-up. In just over a minute of combat I recorded 2482.8 dps. I challenge other people to post theirs.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

It's one thing for a Champ or other dps class to post a high dps number for a single encounter, but over an instance the rollercoaster ride drops their average. I'll have the occasional encounter spike over 3k dps, but over the course of the instance I'm almost never below 1000 and more commonly between 1000-1500 dps, which is very good for the duration of an entire instance. I don't suffer from the rollercoaster ride of spike dps, mine is very consistent and reliable.

Wait a sec, your Guardian is an Elf by any chance?

Originally Posted by Lorelion

Wait a sec, your Guardian is an Elf by any chance?

Pretty sure he's a human female.

Originally Posted by Lorelion

Wait a sec, your Guardian is an Elf by any chance?

Human female. Originally for the man heal, but that's just candy now. More importantly is the +5% incoming healing bonus that I get.

Also because she's pretty to look at.

More of what a dps guardian is capable of, this is from on-level content...
* I should also mention that I had ZERO buffs, ie; the ONLY buff that I had on was my Overpower Stance which isn't a buff.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

More of what a dps guardian is capable of, this is from on-level content...

What content is that exactly? It kind of matters.

Originally Posted by Mithgalad

What content is that exactly? It kind of matters.

This was from soloing a skirm set to duo size with a herbalist for heals; battle of the way of smiths; no food, trail food or any buffs.

Other solo that I've done outside of skirms with high dps is forges of isengard (2,4k dps for the entire instance) from galtrev.

Also been in Foundry 6-man and posted 1634 dps over the course of the entire instance.

Anything with mobs. Single-target dps my dps drops a bunch, usually anywhere's from 600-1200 dps as my range for single-target.

Just trying to promote other guardians as a viable dps role, which also includes popping CJ's, stagger debuff, and high mitigations.

I love tanking on my Guard but I'm a little tired of the double standard that OP shouldn't be made into a legitimate DPS line, taking into account all the updates that Champs, Minstrels, RKs and Wardens have gotten. Wish Turbine would step into the 21st century and get rid of strict class roles. I'm not asking that Guards be able to out-DPS Champs but being able to just DPS period in group content would be just lovely. You'll only ever need two dedicated tanks MAX in any content in the game. There's three tank classes (two of which can fulfill a DPS role infinitely better than a Guard). And on my server of Gladden, most end game PUGs are still ran by kins/specific groups of players who usually already have the tank and heal slots filled. It's rather frustrating having to beg to be let into anything other than a skirmish.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

Here's actually a challenge that anyone is welcome to. This is from doing the Forges of Isengard. First thing I do is hit my sprint and round up every single target and AoE everything to death, not leaving a single target in my round-up. In just over a minute of combat I recorded 2482.8 dps. I challenge other people to post theirs.

Out of curiosity, do you use scrolls/hope when you do this? I tried it once without and it worked pretty well, but I missed 6 mobs in the roundup and still barely lived. It would be nice if other classes had the defensive cooldowns to do this (do champ bubbles last long enough?), we could really use something easy to compare AoE.

Originally Posted by Mauns

Out of curiosity, do you use scrolls/hope when you do this? I tried it once without and it worked pretty well, but I missed 6 mobs in the roundup and still barely lived. It would be nice if other classes had the defensive cooldowns to do this (do champ bubbles last long enough?), we could really use something easy to compare AoE.

I didn't use any buffs for this. The issue with that instance is the nasty stun poison that the Pale-folk do. I actually resist most of those so I think that I got away with potting once and Turning The Tables once. Other than that just saving both of my Pledges for when they are all rounded up. If you get stunned and can't break out with everything on you then you're probably dead.

I did that with 7k morale and 24.2% resistance.

*edit: I just tried again, twice and got spanked badly doing this, lmao

There are some Golden Token repeatables that have mobs that one could fight. The one in the Brown Lands where you enter the enemy camp and have to option to use your horn to summon Oathbreakers.. that one is great for rounding up mobs. I throw on my healing proc gear, sword and shied, round up everything, swap back to dps gear, then Pledge twice and AoE like crazy. That one there you wouldn't have to worry about wounds / poisons stunning you.

However, I don't see any Champ ever being able to round up all those guys and AoE'ing them without flopping over dead unless they went into Ardour.

Technically... and this could work... I have fallen in love with Battle of The Way of Smiths. If one were to set the size to duo (but solo it), and untrait personal traits and only use a Herbalist for healing then really what's the harm because you're not getting any bonuses or offensive buffs, just healing? The reason for duo is because on solo the mobs are too small, and on small-fellowship it begins to get difficult to survive.

To be honest,i hit sometimes harder than Champions,but i cant outdps them.Why?Tehyre alot faster.Where i hit 10 hits in 4 secs they may hit 38 in the same time.I think the reason for overpower was mostlly for Moors.To add alot more damage but still keep our Defences.