Thread: Shield and Song Brother Changes

Reading this a thought came to my mind that it also might be a good idea to untie blade/song/shield brother skills from capstones. I'd basically give more flexibility to captain when you need them as they aren't main reason to slot each capstone anyways.

Originally Posted by Fuin

Reading this a thought came to my mind that it also might be a good idea to untie blade/song/shield brother skills from capstones. I'd basically give more flexibility to captain when you need them as they aren't main reason to slot each capstone anyways.

That's just masking the problem unless Song Brother gets overhauled, because Shield will always do what Song was meant to do better =/

Yeah, unlocking the Brother skills from capstones would be a kludge, not a fix. There's an elegance to the way the system is designed right now, marred only by the fact that Song-Brother doesn't do what it's supposed to well enough to be worth using over Shield-Brother.

I'm a bit late coming back, (sorry been away from the games since just after the autaum festival and just jumped on my warden, major shock), so sorry if i'm a bit late.

I wasn't talking about Song Brother in the context of "drop it on in the place of sheild brother and make no other changes". To see it's full benefit you need the healer to actually re-gear appropriattlly. Most healers AFAIK don't come especially close to their outgoing healing caps, they have to build for ICPR and (in some cases), threat reduction, (often via traits rather than gear though). A healer that knew they where going in with a captain main tank who could use song brother would be seeing a much higher outgoing healing and would be able to go more "all out" on their healing for sustained periods without worrying about threat or power so much. I'd argue that that is likliy to at least closely approach if not exceed the +20% incoming healing.

Of course in practise captains are about the only class that actually keeps a specific set of gear around for every situation. The list of healers who have the gear on hand to build like that can probably be counted on one hand. So it's a purely theoretical example because none of us are ever going to encounter it in game. It's more "yes there's a situation where song brother could actually be better than the others", than a "yes there's a lot of situations you'll see everyday where song brother is better than the others".



The current ongoing discushion over the last couple of posts is precisly what i was getting at earlier BTW.

Blade Brother is great if your main DPS, off DPS, or any other group role.

Sheild brother is great if your the off tank, but is rather wasted as main tank.

Song Brother is a bit borked ATM, but if you really must use it, it's much more useful as an off healer than if your the main healer with no off healer.

Bassiclly IMHO the whole concept of tying it to the capstones just dosen't work for anythng but blade brother.

EDIT:

To reply to the above. Of course song brother needs a tweak IMHO, but thats not going to make it any less situational. At best it will replace sheild brother for when your off healing, but it's going to do nothing for when your main healing without an off healer.

Originally Posted by Darth_Carl

I'm a bit late coming back, (sorry been away from the games since just after the autaum festival and just jumped on my warden, major shock), so sorry if i'm a bit late.

I wasn't talking about Song Brother in the context of "drop it on in the place of sheild brother and make no other changes". To see it's full benefit you need the healer to actually re-gear appropriattlly. Most healers AFAIK don't come especially close to their outgoing healing caps, they have to build for ICPR and (in some cases), threat reduction, (often via traits rather than gear though). A healer that knew they where going in with a captain main tank who could use song brother would be seeing a much higher outgoing healing and would be able to go more "all out" on their healing for sustained periods without worrying about threat or power so much. I'd argue that that is likliy to at least closely approach if not exceed the +20% incoming healing.

I imagine most of the well geared minis are a lot like the well geared captains: both exceed 40% outgoing healing.

Originally Posted by Darth_Carl

Of course in practise captains are about the only class that actually keeps a specific set of gear around for every situation. The list of healers who have the gear on hand to build like that can probably be counted on one hand. So it's a purely theoretical example because none of us are ever going to encounter it in game. It's more "yes there's a situation where song brother could actually be better than the others", than a "yes there's a lot of situations you'll see everyday where song brother is better than the others".

I only have 2 sets of gear (DPS/Healing + tanking) with a few high tactical mitigation pieces, and use a subset of that gear for the 'Moors. I've found that if you have a high might build, you no longer need the healing and DPS gear, because they both merge. Well, the jewelry at least. Armor sets still require a fair amount of swapping between DPS and Healing

@Almagnus1, furtim
True, but I thought more about it'd be something extra than instead songbro/shieldbro issue fix. As of course it wouldn't solve that problem, as while full extra incoming heal or reduced damage from shieldbro skills effect would be nice, the reason to use them is completely different(aka healing someone else).

Originally Posted by Fuin

@Almagnus1, furtim
True, but I thought more about it'd be something extra than instead songbro/shieldbro issue fix. As of course it wouldn't solve that problem, as while full extra incoming heal or reduced damage from shieldbro skills effect would be nice, the reason to use them is completely different(aka healing someone else).

Should Song Brother Strength of Will be +20% Outgoing healing and Song Brother To Arms be something different then?

Is there any reason Strength of Will needs to be an active skill? What if they just fold its benefits into x-Brother's passive stats?

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

Is there any reason Strength of Will needs to be an active skill? What if they just fold its benefits into x-Brother's passive stats?

If the devs want it to be a skill, it makes more sense to be a toggle than anything else. It's how we all view it anyway.....

I imagine most of the well geared minis are a lot like the well geared captains: both exceed 40% outgoing healing.

Hmm, i should have remebered that there has been a few gear updates since i last played heavilly, (yes i've bene gone since last autaum fest ended). Fair enough then.

As for the gear, yu've admited yourself you have 2 sets of armour, and between your buf stick and your trait line specific LI's i bet you have a lot of LI's too. Which is a lot mopre variance than several classes can claim. Which was my point, in my experiance the captain community is a lot more willing to have a 101 diffrent gear combination where this is neccessery.

To slightly come back to topic. since i think everyone is acknolaging that song brother needs a tweak regardless of weather we should be tying things i with the capstons how they are, How about swapping the to arms and strength of will effect around but keeping the base magnitudes, (so to arms becomes -25% power cost for healing, and strength of wil becomes +10% outgoing healing). Let that be affected by the SoW legacy and Song Brother should work. It still won't be perfect as it is still overkill on the power conservation. But it is a lot better.

Originally Posted by Darth_Carl

Hmm, i should have remebered that there has been a few gear updates since i last played heavilly, (yes i've bene gone since last autaum fest ended). Fair enough then.

As for the gear, yu've admited yourself you have 2 sets of armour, and between your buf stick and your trait line specific LI's i bet you have a lot of LI's too. Which is a lot mopre variance than several classes can claim. Which was my point, in my experiance the captain community is a lot more willing to have a 101 diffrent gear combination where this is neccessery.

Eh, that's more of a product of being over-zealous with getting ToO sets than anything else.

I could get by with just Galtrev armor for just about everything (though it's not optimal for DPS, stats are pretty good), but there's not really a good set for a non-capstone build ATM. If I ever motivate myself enough to goto the 'Moors and grind out the defeat response set, that's going to drop the armor count for most cases down to 9 pieces.

Necessary LIs to me are the healing emblem, DPS emblem, and the weapon.

The entire tanking experiment is where a lot of the time sink for gear has been, and that's where the bulk of my extra gear is.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

Is there any reason Strength of Will needs to be an active skill? What if they just fold its benefits into x-Brother's passive stats?

To suck up 180 power every 2 minutes and slow down our rotations? From a more practical standpoint, it does separate the SoW effects, which are modified by Fellowship-Brother, from the effects of the Brother skill itself, which never apply to more than one target. So that would be one argument for changing SoW to a toggle rather than putting it on the passive Brother skill, if it's going to be changed at all.

Coming up with a better SoW for Shield-Brother that doesn't involve healing is actually kind of difficult. R/B/P/E is the only one I can think of that suits the purpose of the Shield-Brother skill. Actually, I do think it would be very nice to have a way for Captains to boost the fellowship's Resistance rating, especially while tanking, since a lot of the end-game content right now seems to like throwing around stuns that mess with tanks and healers pretty badly.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Here's what the capstones do on Live:

Leader of Men:
You have become a Leader of Men.
+50% Threat from Noble Mark
Adds effects from Shield-brother skills to yourself
Routing Cry does not require a defeat
You can Block with a two-handed weapon
Requires: 5 traits in Leader of Men line slotted.

Master of War:
The vigour of war flows through your veins.
+50% Damage from Shadow's Lament
Shadow's Lament no longer requires a defeat event and Hits will Battle-ready
Your Heralds and Archers deal more damage and you can wield the 'Armaments of the Oath-bound'
Adds effects from Blade-brother skills to yourself
Requires: 5 traits in Lead the Charge line slotted.

Hands of Healing:
You are a paragon of healing on the battlefield.
+10% Healing from all Healing Skills
Valiant Strike gains a strong Heal Over Time
-30s Valiant Strike Cooldown
Adds effects from Song-brother skills to yourself
Requires: 5 traits in Hands of Healing line slotted.

Notice what I have bolded in each one of them?

Based on what you observe on the game servers right now, is Shield Brother the definitive tanking Brother skill?

Is Song Brother the definitive healing Brother skill?

Is Blade Brother the definitive DPS Brother skill?

If the answer to any of the above is no, then the brother skills are broken, and that Brother skill needs to be adjusted to make it better mesh with the trait line.

If you still want to say this is about philosophy, and not the captain mechanics not making sense - you need to stop trolling the captain forums and go learn to play.

Almagnus, it's humorous to me that you, someone who has never played with me before or has any idea how I actually do play - is now telling me I need to learn how to play.

And if you want to see who is really trolling the captain forums go take a look in the mirror. That's who is trolling. You are the one getting emotional and trying to insult me personally simply because you dont' like the way I am framing your argument.

And the funny thing is you don't understand that your response pretty much just echos what I said you were doing. YOu just don't understand what a philosophical debate is. You are basing your argument on trait line descpritions and your belief that there should be a fundamental (or definitive as you put it) brother skill for each line. That's what are you are doing.

If Shield Brother was the brother skill linked to HoH trait line you woudn't have a problem with it. Like I said, your whole argument is more about your desire to have a fundamental brother skill linked to HoH line. That's fine you believe this, but doesn't change the simple fact HoH Captain's are still perfectly free to use Shield Brother when they are healing. The only difference is we now have a new skill we can use to restore power as well.

So basically what I'm saying is you are just letting your philosphy get in the way of what is the reality, which is Song Brother does nothing but improve upon Hands of Healing Captains, giving us a new and useful skill we can use to restore power when we need to - and we are perfectly at liberty to continue using Shield Brother in all other situations.

There's really no problem here.

I've been thinking about this Strength of Will thing a little more. It is a boring skill, but a necessary one. It has a couple flaws: 1) no reason not to cast it whenever it is off cooldown, 2) dependent on an overpowered legacy for 1 x-brother skill but not the others, and 3) useable with swap emblems, (which the developers seem to want to discourage).

This could all be fixed if when Strength of Will is trained at level 48 it becomes and upgrade to all the x-Brother skills, changing it from an actively used (set & forget) buff to a buff from x-Brother. The Fellowship Brother legendary trait would add a fellowship wide aura to the x-Brother skills with the Strength of Will buff. I would increase the base buff of the Shield-Brother version and remove the legacy altogether. (Or if the legacy needs to remain, make it apply to all 3 x-Brother skills, and make it a minor legacy, and nerf it.)

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I've been thinking about this Strength of Will thing a little more. It is a boring skill, but a necessary one. It has a couple flaws: 1) no reason not to cast it whenever it is off cooldown, 2) dependent on an overpowered legacy for 1 x-brother skill but not the others, and 3) useable with swap emblems, (which the developers seem to want to discourage).

This could all be fixed if when Strength of Will is trained at level 48 it becomes and upgrade to all the x-Brother skills, changing it from an actively used (set & forget) buff to a buff from x-Brother. The Fellowship Brother legendary trait would add a fellowship wide aura to the x-Brother skills with the Strength of Will buff. I would increase the base buff of the Shield-Brother version and remove the legacy altogether. (Or if the legacy needs to remain, make it apply to all 3 x-Brother skills, and make it a minor legacy, and nerf it.)

Why is Strength of Will a boring skill? It's just a buff. It's not suppose to be reactionary or anything lol Do you consider our Crit buff boring also?

This seems like a very silly thing to complain about to me - saying that our buffs are boring.

I really don't see the problem with the legacy either. Considering how useful it is, I don't think it's such a bad thing that it requires a major legacy.

This seems like crying over spilled milk to me. Strength of Will is great the way it is. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Why is Strength of Will a boring skill? It's just a buff. It's not suppose to be reactionary or anything lol...

Zombie Columbus has stated that at least he wants the skills we use to be choices, and not just a button you have to hit every time the timer expires:

Originally Posted by Zombie Columbus

Calming Verse is a skill I’ve never been very happy with. The Linnod traits combined with this skill to encourage using it every time the cooldown was up. This made it a fairly stale skill, though potent. I do not like stale skills. So, I gutted it to make it a skill you want to use when it’s useful, not all the time...

I'm just trying to come up with a version of the skill that isn't stale and not terribly weakened from what we currently have.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Do you consider our Crit buff boring also?

The Crit buff is kinda boring, but its main features that distinguish it from Strength of Will are that you can apply it to any player (not just your shield brother or your fellowship), and that it is one among 3 choices for a Tactics buff on a particular player. It wouldn't be possible to replace the crit buff with an aura without severely nerfing it or by disallowing the choice to buff each player with a different tactic.

Although, if what RockX means what I think he means here:

Originally Posted by RockX

Yeah, this is a bug. It is not intended (though it certainly happens on occasion) for players to be able to maintain the benefits of a set bonus even after the set has been removed.

And before someone else brings up the Captain Rift set, yeah... also a bug.

it might mean that the developers do not intend for buff sticks and buff items to be swapped out while maintaining the improved buff. We better do some brainstorming to improve the tactics buffs in case noone comes up with a good idea for improving these skills and the devs just decide to nerf them.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

This seems like a very silly thing to complain about to me - saying that our buffs are boring.

I really don't see the problem with the legacy either. Considering how useful it is, I don't think it's such a bad thing that it requires a major legacy.

This seems like crying over spilled milk to me. Strength of Will is great the way it is. Just my opinion.

If I sound ungrateful, I apologize. I just wanted to add some ideas to the discussion for revamping Song-brother and Shield-brother.

Although, I do find the legacy annoying since it is expensive in legacy points, a major legacy, situational, and encourages actively swapping legendary items in combat to eke out a little better performance. This could be improved in many ways. I supplied one suggestion.

@Jeremi: Not gonna get drawn into another mind-numbingly stupid argument with you.

If you want to chest-thump about this being a "victory" for you, go right ahead.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I've been thinking about this Strength of Will thing a little more. It is a boring skill, but a necessary one. It has a couple flaws: 1) no reason not to cast it whenever it is off cooldown, 2) dependent on an overpowered legacy for 1 x-brother skill but not the others, and 3) useable with swap emblems, (which the developers seem to want to discourage).

This could all be fixed if when Strength of Will is trained at level 48 it becomes and upgrade to all the x-Brother skills, changing it from an actively used (set & forget) buff to a buff from x-Brother. The Fellowship Brother legendary trait would add a fellowship wide aura to the x-Brother skills with the Strength of Will buff. I would increase the base buff of the Shield-Brother version and remove the legacy altogether. (Or if the legacy needs to remain, make it apply to all 3 x-Brother skills, and make it a minor legacy, and nerf it.)

So if I'm reading this right, Strength of Will would behave like a modal toggle with four states: One for each of the X-Bros, and then another base one when no X-Bro is active.

I generally like that idea, although, what should be it's base state?

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

Zombie Columbus has stated that at least he wants the skills we use to be choices, and not just a button you have to hit every time the timer expires:

Unfortunately, that's what all the X-Brother buffs are.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

The Crit buff is kinda boring, but its main features that distinguish it from Strength of Will are that you can apply it to any player (not just your shield brother or your fellowship), and that it is one among 3 choices for a Tactics buff on a particular player. It wouldn't be possible to replace the crit buff with an aura without severely nerfing it or by disallowing the choice to buff each player with a different tactic.

Although, if what RockX means what I think he means here:

Originally Posted by RockX

Yeah, this is a bug. It is not intended (though it certainly happens on occasion) for players to be able to maintain the benefits of a set bonus even after the set has been removed.

And before someone else brings up the Captain Rift set, yeah... also a bug.

it might mean that the developers do not intend for buff sticks and buff items to be swapped out while maintaining the improved buff. We better do some brainstorming to improve the tactics buffs in case noone comes up with a good idea for improving these skills and the devs just decide to nerf them.

That's also one of the reasons why I started a thread to get most of those legacies removed. When some of them are that crucial to how we play, they just need to be part of the class.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

If I sound ungrateful, I apologize. I just wanted to add some ideas to the discussion for revamping Song-brother and Shield-brother.

Although, I do find the legacy annoying since it is expensive in legacy points, a major legacy, situational, and encourages actively swapping legendary items in combat to eke out a little better performance. This could be improved in many ways. I supplied one suggestion.

There's no winning with Jeremi - he'll drag you down to his level of incompetence and beat you with experience.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

@Jeremi: Not gonna get drawn into another mind-numbingly stupid argument with you.

If you want to chest-thump about this being a "victory" for you, go right ahead.



So if I'm reading this right, Strength of Will would behave like a modal toggle with four states: One for each of the X-Bros, and then another base one when no X-Bro is active.

I generally like that idea, although, what should be it's base state?

Currently, Strength of Will isn't useable without an x-Brother skill active. It could remain like that, but just become activated automatically when x-Brother is used on a fellow (or a pet). The fellowship-wide buff would also become activated when a x-Brother skill is used, as long as the Fellowship Brother legendary trait is equipped.

I'm not sure it should be available without an x-Brother skill active, but it could be an interesting change.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

@Jeremi: Not gonna get drawn into another mind-numbingly stupid argument with you.

If you want to chest-thump about this being a "victory" for you, go right ahead.



So if I'm reading this right, Strength of Will would behave like a modal toggle with four states: One for each of the X-Bros, and then another base one when no X-Bro is active.

I generally like that idea, although, what should be it's base state?



Unfortunately, that's what all the X-Brother buffs are.



That's also one of the reasons why I started a thread to get most of those legacies removed. When some of them are that crucial to how we play, they just need to be part of the class.



There's no winning with Jeremi - he'll drag you down to his level of incompetence and beat you with experience.

No xBro in use, no strength of will. At least thats what I read and how I think it should be. Otherwise liking the idea too. At least something must change with SoW and its legacy.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

@Jeremi: Not gonna get drawn into another mind-numbingly stupid argument with you.

If you want to chest-thump about this being a "victory" for you, go right ahead

I'm not even reading his posts any more. He has nothing sensible to add. It's a shame this forum software lacks an "ignore" feature.

Originally Posted by furtim

I'm not even reading his posts any more. He has nothing sensible to add. It's a shame this forum software lacks an "ignore" feature.

There is an ignore feature. Go to My Preferences > My Forums Settings. Then select Edit Ignore List from the box on the left.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

There is an ignore feature. Go to My Preferences > My Forums Settings. Then select Edit Ignore List from the box on the left.

As tempting as that may be...

Even a 40W light bulb will have a bright moment sometime...

I'd rather not miss it when it happens XD

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Should Song Brother Strength of Will be +20% Outgoing healing and Song Brother To Arms be something different then?

I don't think there will be straight answer which is better one incoming or outgoing. It depends on who needs more heals, tank(incoming) or group(outgoing). My idea as below would be sticking with incoming one.

But yes, shieldbro SoW should change as it should buff threat/self survivability, not healer healing. Simple way of fixing is move shieldbro SoW to songbro SoW and replace shieldbro one with something else. I good idea for to arms would be decent spike heal for songbro(and with HoH capstone a nice self heal for captain which we really lack). This way we'd have 20% more heals for tank and nice spike heal every 1 minute. Small healing/general crit effect wouldn't be bad too to leave some sort of buff so it'd more in line with other to arms buffs.

If we also let captain to have full effect of his to arms/SoW buff without proper capstones we'd have a very flexible set of self buffs.

Originally Posted by furtim

I'm not even reading his posts any more. He has nothing sensible to add. It's a shame this forum software lacks an "ignore" feature.

There is one, and he is the sole resident in mine

And as to the thread thesis, I agree they should be revamped. I cruise in Blade Brother far too much of the time, and am in Shield Brother only if the tank/healer combination can't keep up. I think the most consistent thing would be for Shield Brother to help with mitigations of some sort (some combination of tac/crit mitgation, phys mits, resist, etc)...

Originally Posted by Fuin

I don't think there will be straight answer which is better one incoming or outgoing. It depends on who needs more heals, tank(incoming) or group(outgoing). My idea as below would be sticking with incoming one.

But yes, shieldbro SoW should change as it should buff threat/self survivability, not healer healing. Simple way of fixing is move shieldbro SoW to songbro SoW and replace shieldbro one with something else. I good idea for to arms would be decent spike heal for songbro(and with HoH capstone a nice self heal for captain which we really lack). This way we'd have 20% more heals for tank and nice spike heal every 1 minute. Small healing/general crit effect wouldn't be bad too to leave some sort of buff so it'd more in line with other to arms buffs.

If we also let captain to have full effect of his to arms/SoW buff without proper capstones we'd have a very flexible set of self buffs.

Having a massive single heal (2k+ morale with potential to crit) fits To Arms really well. Combined with the existing Shield Bro SoW, and making Song Bro Inspire a high powered Blade Bro Inspire would be enough to turn Song Brother into the healing tool it should be, while keeping it's Power Restore properties intact. When combined with FB, this gives us a boost to our group healing in HoH that is sorely needed, to help put a HoH captain further up the healing charts than where they are now. It's also working well with the idea that a captain is a brute force "healing chainsaw" while minis and RKs are high finesse "healing scalpels" - giving better rationalization to why we draw tactical mastery from might, instead of will, while also helping to create a "healing identity" for the captain.

The only real concern I have is with Shield Bro SoW. Shield Bro is actually really good for tanking in it's current form (giving ShB Inspire a PoT is the only real improvement that could be made), and by moving SoW to Song Bro, it opens up SoW to have a truly good mitigation buff there. But this is where Shield Bro becomes problematic - whatever that buff may be has to be good enough that a non-captain tank will want that buff. This is where a new SoW needs to behave like our 4 LtC Crit bonus, and give a buff that has the potential to exceed whatever cap it's effective on (so like a +X% stacking mitigation or BPE buff, that allows a guard to be at X + cap% mitigations for example).

I would lean towards having a +% tactical/physical mitigation buff here, because that seems both more likely, and also feels right for a captain - given that the other choices are crit defence, BPE, armor, and incoming healing.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

There is an ignore feature. Go to My Preferences > My Forums Settings. Then select Edit Ignore List from the box on the left.

Thanks for the tip! I would never have thought to look there.

You know, I'm coming back again to the big problem with Song vs. Shield Brother is that the the Shield SoW's 20% incoming healing is always on, while Song To Arms is only up 50% of the time. With judicious timing, you can ensure that To Arms goes up right before you hit a Rallying Cry/Valiant Strike, but that's still a major factor in Shield-Brother's superiority over Song-Brother for healing. We can't always predict when RC will actually be available (leaving aside other proposed changes to the HoH capstone), and even if we could we'd still be losing efficiency on half of our HoT ticks anyway.

Just to summarise the closest thing we have to a consensus right now, it seems like we're mostly agreed that Strength of Will is causing more of a problem than To Arms, correct? I mean, the core problem is that Shield-Brother SoW gives out more healing than the Song-Brother To Arms, but there's no actual problem with the three To Arms skills either in a vacuum or in comparison with one another. I think we mostly agree on this already, I just want to state it again so we can use it to focus the rest of the discussion.

So, what we should continue working toward as a primary goal is to propose rebalanced versions of the Shield- and Song-Brother Strength of Will buffs. Other issues like suggestions for Inspire, the -Brother benefits themselves, or making SoW a toggle are still relevant, but we should probably look to the SoW buffs themselves as the main knob to tweak.

So far, I'm really liking Almagnus' idea to give +crit rating (either specifically for heals or general crit rating) on Song-Brother Strength of Will. I have a few more thoughts on alternative Shield-Brother Strengths of Will, but I want to do a little more research before I post them.

Taking what Fuin suggested and formalizing it into an alternative to the OP:

Song Bro:
To Arms: big morale heal with no HoT on a 1 min cooldown
SoW: +20% Incoming Healing (might as well roll in the legacy while we're at it)
Inspire: Big HoT + Big PoT

Shield Bro:
To Arms: Damage reduction (same as now)
SoW: +X% physical and tactical mitigations (stacks with cap)
Inspire: Big HoT + PoT

Personally, I like the direction this is heading better.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Taking what Fuin suggested and formalizing it into an alternative to the OP:

Song Bro:
To Arms: big morale heal with no HoT on a 1 min cooldown
SoW: +20% Incoming Healing (might as well roll in the legacy while we're at it)
Inspire: Big HoT + Big PoT

Shield Bro:
To Arms: Damage reduction (same as now)
SoW: +X% physical and tactical mitigations (stacks with cap)
Inspire: Big HoT + PoT

Personally, I like the direction this is heading better.

I like how this looks too. The only things I might add/change, are that instead of a big morale heal with song bro to arms, maybe a HoT would make more sense. This would also work with the "to arms duration" legacy. And the shield bro to arms could add +crit defense too (that would be sweet).

Originally Posted by DavyMark

I like how this looks too. The only things I might add/change, are that instead of a big morale heal with song bro to arms, maybe a HoT would make more sense. This would also work with the "to arms duration" legacy. And the shield bro to arms could add +crit defense too (that would be sweet).

Why does To Arms need to be a buff?

Why can't it be something different?

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Why does To Arms need to be a buff?

Why can't it be something different?

Well, the only reason I can think of is that if sometimes it's a buff and sometimes it is not, then it changes how the legacy works. Currently it is a duration effect. So if to arms gives a one time effect for some and an over time for others then the legacy needs to change too. Or each to arms effect could have a one time effect and an over time effect.

Originally Posted by DavyMark

Well, the only reason I can think of is that if sometimes it's a buff and sometimes it is not, then it changes how the legacy works. Currently it is a duration effect. So if to arms gives a one time effect for some and an over time for others then the legacy needs to change too. Or each to arms effect could have a one time effect and an over time effect.

Or we can take the third path and have the To Arms legacy and trait rolled into the buff versions (while getting a new legacy and trait), and not worry about the heal version =P

If shield bro is for a tank... Tanking is about two things, threat and survivability.
For surviving there is no possible equivalent to SoW. It gives the tank 20% incoming healing from every heal he takes regardless if its the mini or the lore-master. Even if song bro was a 50% boost to outgoing healing on one healer, i'm not sure it'd match up to what you can get from shield bro SoW. (in a raid).

It's been said before (by me) that song bro is for aoe healing, and shield is not. But as others have mentioned the gain from song vs shield isn't very much, and even in T2 raiding i've never found it useful to take shield bro off the tank in favor of song bro for some small gain to aoe healing. If healers aren't as concerned about the tank they have a lot more time to care for the group.

Bottom line is shield bro needs a nerfbuff. If we're willing to take a nerfbuff, then there are options on the table. SoW is too strong. And if we're not ... then this is all moo

My suggestion if i had to make one is change shield SoW to be pretty much what To Arms is now. So it's up full time. Change To Arms to a +25% threat generation skill.
Song bro SoW should be a flat OGH bonus like 20%. To Arms would ideally be a bubble but that's not going to happen... Someone figure out some nice thing you can do for healers other than raise their healing.

@Fuin: The way things are currently setup each of the brothers buffs is supposed to help one member of the group, sheild brother helps tanks, blade brother helps DPS, and song brother helps Healers. I can't see the devs changing that, especially to two seperate buffs for tanks. We really need to focus on making it work for healers.

@Dunebug: That all comes down to just how much healing is coming from the main healer and how much is coming from others, does anyone have a comprahensive report on hand from a tank on this?

The lower the percentage they're taking from everyone else the less the outgoing healing buff needs to be.

For your examle fo a 50% buff to outgoing, the tank would have to be taking just 40% of their total incoming healing from the main healer before Sheild Brother would break even, that would have to drop to 39% or less before sheild brother was actually ahead.

The problem with making either To Arms or SoW generate threat is two-fold: In 6-man/raid content, you'll have Fellowship-Brother on, so your whole fellow is going to get the bonus threat. In 3-man content, you have to set Shield-Brother on someone, and as like as not that someone is going to be squishy; even if they aren't, you're not achieving what you want, which is a net threat gain for you as a Captank over the rest of the fellow. The latter problem applies for putting a threat generation bonus on Watchful Shield-Brother itself, as well. (Which is, incidentally, a third problem for Song-Brother, in that it decreases Warden threat generation from heals, so that's a potential use case for Song-Bro killed right out of the gate.)

So, here's two suggestions for Shield-Brother Strength of Will that keeps it a strong benefit for tanks without getting in the way of Song-Brother's healing role.

First, assuming that SoW remains a cast-every-two-minutes skill: Activating Strength of Will generates a temporary morale bubble. The amount of morale is 15*level on the primary target and 10*level for the fellowship. On expiration, any remaining temporary morale is removed from all targets. The numbers were chosen deliberately to be less than the one-Fervour magnitude of Champions' Sudden Defence, reflecting the shorter (unlegacied) cooldown and potentially fellowship-wide effect of Strength of Will. The SoW healing legacy would increase the amount of temporary morale on the primary target up to 25*level (approx. equal to the amount Champs get with the one-Fervour magnitude of Sudden Defence).

Second, if the suggestion to make SoW a toggle skill is implemented: +2% Resistance Rating, +5% to Partial Block/Party/Evade Mitigation (can exceed cap). Partial BPE mitigation is used rather than straight mitigation just to keep it somewhat distinct from To Arms. The amount of resistance rating I listed there is somewhat arbitrary, because I'm not quite sure what would be overpowered. (I couldn't find numbers on Anthem of Compassion to get a feel for what the devs consider balanced.)

Originally Posted by furtim

I'm not even reading his posts any more. He has nothing sensible to add. It's a shame this forum software lacks an "ignore" feature.

Furtim, you can ignore people without needing a software option to do so. I suggest you try it, because if anything is senseless dribble on this forum it's posts like this.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

As tempting as that may be...

Even a 40W light bulb will have a bright moment sometime...

I'd rather not miss it when it happens XD

Condescension is usually what people resort to when they run out of good ideas themselves Almagnus, so if anyone is the 40W light bulb, might just be you

But please, I really do wish you and your other arrogant and touchy cohorts who can't handle differeing views would put me on ignore. It wouldn't bother me in the least lol

As far as your earlier post, don't worry - I'll take my victory without any chest thumping.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

There is one, and he is the sole resident in mine

...

And I wear it like a badge of honor too

I think the core problem with the Brother skills is how so much of the incombat captain buffing feels like "if it's off cooldown, hit it".

Maybe now's a good time to address the incombat buffing as well....

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

Zombie Columbus has stated that at least he wants the skills we use to be choices, and not just a button you have to hit every time the timer expires:

If I sound ungrateful, I apologize. I just wanted to add some ideas to the discussion for revamping Song-brother and Shield-brother.

Although, I do find the legacy annoying since it is expensive in legacy points, a major legacy, situational, and encourages actively swapping legendary items in combat to eke out a little better performance. This could be improved in many ways. I supplied one suggestion.

I didn't think you sounded "ungrateful" dietbomb, and there is deffinitely no reason to apologize lol I wasn't attacking you or anything. Just seems a rather strange thing to have an issue with to me - but if you were just wanting to add some new ideas to the mix then that is cool.

I don't understand why you and a few others are calling Strength of Will legacy situational though. It's a bedrock tool for healing captains, and useful 99% of the time. So I don't understand what is so situational about. Now if I switched out a legenadary item everytime I wanted to use it, then yes... then it would annoy the living #### out of me. But that's a decesion the player makes, so can't really blame the legacy for that.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Condescension is usually what people resort to when they run out of good ideas themselves Almagnus, so if anyone is the 40W light bulb, might just be you

But please, I really do wish you and your other arrogant and touchy cohorts who can't handle differeing views would put me on ignore. It wouldn't bother me in the least lol

As far as your earlier post, don't worry - I'll take my victory without any chest thumping.

You should probably stop posting, nobody takes what you say seriously.

On topic, I would just like to add that it would not be wise to drastically revamp Song brother. Currently we find no use of it, because orthanc is just a zerg fest for the most part and big dps wins the day.

However I think most of you who raided during Mirkwood would have found song brother "irreplaceable" for the lieutenant. We don't know the design direction for the next raid so asking for huge changes when a skill may not seem useful in one patch isn't always the best idea.

I would leave song brother inspire where it is, because as it stands it's the most powerful power restore in the game. We may not need it right now, but we may sometime in the future. What I do think needs changing is the SoW, it's useless, and poorly designed. There is no need for -%power costs when you are already receiving so much power.

As I've said before changing it to a flat % crit buff would be beneficial to everyone in your group especially healers who have some of the highest critical multipliers in the game.