True. I, for one, am thankful that the trilogy didn't start:
"Whan that Sawronne with his ringyes soote
The soules of men hath perced to the roote,
..."
It wouldn't have been, though. From what I know of the mannish languages in Tolkien, they were based on Old Mercian, which is sufficiently different to the Middle English that Chaucer wrote (the kind that was spoken in and around London) to be well nigh incomprehensible to me - Chaucer and his contemporaries I can read quite easily. Actually easier than some of the early modern folks who were writing in the 16th and 17th centuries.
Both the butt and football references seem out of place, but I'm geeky that way.
And for the love of Elbereth, please teach the voice actors how to properly pronounce words like 'Rohirrim' and 'Bruinen'!
"Whan that Sawronne with his ringyes soote
The soules of men hath perced to the roote,
..."
Ooooooh, goodness. Now I want so badly to read it that way. Can someone please get to work on that, the whole batch, trilogy, Silmarillion, what-not? Or does it exist and I missed it?
No, I'm not kidding. A freak, maybe, but not kidding. Okay, I'll butt out now....
Ná Elbereth veria le, ná elenath dín síla erin rád o chuil lín.
How about 14th c? Wyclif's Bible, prologue xii. Bi a figure clepid synodoches, whanne a part is set for al ...
That's the first such entry in my OED.
Haha, but I wasn't talking about using the word "synecdoche", but rather the technique--using a part of the thing to reference the whole. The saying "get your butt over here" is presumably not asking one to deliver only one's posterior but rather the whole person. If someone can find an old use of the word 'butt' that involves a similar figure of speech, the decision to have an orc say it will seem much less questionable.
I may not have played that area yet considering I'm lv44 but let me make a point.
The orc was probably talking to another orc so 'butt' would not work since it means HUMAN posterior not orc.
This is the wierdest topic I have ever seen on the forums.
Having grown up on a farm where we processed our own animals, I have to disagree with you. Butt is used for animals and humans both.
Ooooooh, goodness. Now I want so badly to read it that way. Can someone please get to work on that, the whole batch, trilogy, Silmarillion, what-not? Or does it exist and I missed it?
No, I'm not kidding. A freak, maybe, but not kidding. Okay, I'll butt out now....
Let me introduce you to Beowulf if you want to get your Ye Olde English groove on.
People negative repping the thread for being 'rude' and puerile'? Wow, I'm sorry I said 'butt' in your presence. Don't do Roots of Fangorn if you hate the word so much!
Y'know, I have to admit, I read that and for a moment I thought you had me red handed there - but it turns out that the term is much older than I realized.
Yeah, your link doesn't help you here. It says recorded from the 15th century. That time period doesn't fit Middle-earth. Best to change it.
Originally Posted by Vastin
"This won't do at all!" said Thorin. "If we don't get blown off or
drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and
kicked sky-high for a football."
"Well, if you know of anywhere better, take us there!" said Gandalf,
who was feeling very grumpy, and was far from happy about the giants
himself.
- The Hobbit
You folks are going to have to try harder than that if you want to catch me today.
Also, you don't have rights to the hobbit to use it to back up anything.
Yeah, your link doesn't help you here. It says recorded from the 15th century. That time period doesn't fit Middle-earth. Best to change it.
Tolkien wrote the history about LOTR, Tolkien was born after the 15th century, Middle Earth is a history inveted by J.R.R Tolkien, Tolkien decides about Middle Earth's fate, not Middle Earth itself. Middle Earth is a fantasy story written by Tolkien who once again was born AFTER the 15th century, the time period doesnt matter as long Tolkien used his own words into his own stories.
You dont have the rights to discuss this since you didnt write the books nor knew Tolkien.
Tolkien wrote the history about LOTR, Tolkien was born after the 15th century, Middle Earth is a history inveted by J.R.R Tolkien, Tolkien decides about Middle Earth's fate, not Middle Earth itself. Middle Earth is a fantasy story written by Tolkien who once again was born AFTER the 15th century, the time period doesnt matter as long Tolkien used his own words into his own stories.
You have no point here. He also had words for tanks, planes and cars. You'll notice they don't fit it either.
Originally Posted by Witch0King
You dont have the rights to discuss this since you didnt write the books nor knew Tolkien.
No point here either. You should have pointed out that they do have the rights to the Hobbit (so I've now been told).
You have no point here. He also had words for tanks, planes and cars. You'll notice they don't fit it either.
No point here either. You should have pointed out that they do have the rights to the Hobbit (so I've now been told).
Doro - 1
Vastin - 1
Yeah I was confused about footballs in the Hobbit, it doesnt fit in, but shouldnt disallow Turbine from picking it up
About the rights part, was too funny xD
Y'know, I have to admit, I read that and for a moment I thought you had me red handed there - but it turns out that the term is much older than I realized.
Except none of those 4 very old meanings in any way fits with the words put into the game, which clearly infer use of the Americanism the OP is rightly objecting to.
Except none of those 4 very old meanings in any way fits with the words put into the game, which clearly infer use of the Americanism the OP is rightly objecting to.
"butt (n.3) "target of a joke," 1610s, originally "target for shooting practice" (mid-14c.), from O.Fr. but "aim, goal, end, target (of an arrow, etc.)," 13c., perhaps from butte "mound, knoll," from Frank. *but (cf. O.N. butr "log of wood"), which would connect it with butt (n.1)."
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Re: Butt. Seriously. BUTT?
A clarification regarding the reference to Tolkien's other material, such as the Silmarillion - we cannot reference the specifics in our work, especially the distinct names of characters or events.
However, for the sake of proper world continuity we can neither contradict their existence in the canon - and so we do take them into account in our storytelling, albeit obliquely. In particular we can and certainly do use references to his writing style and word choices in those other books to inform our work.
As for the use of common terms, like football - it should be obvious to anyone that it is NOT a copy-writable term (unlike, say, Quidditch). It is enough for us to know that Tolkien considered such words proper canon in his world for us to be comfortable referencing them as well.
Now please excuse me, as I need to go modify my Orc boss' opening dialog to include an extended etymological discussion with his fellows on the contextual meaning and appropriate use of the word 'Butt' in Orcish culture.
In my opinion it's good to keep a limit on the concepts so that they are suited to middle-earth, but words by themselves wouldn't matter that much to me.
I mean until recently I didn't clearly know that Westron was not actually spoken like English. I mean Rivendell as Karningul, Sam as Banazîr Galbasi, Merry and Pippin as Kalimac Brandagamba and Razanur Tûc. So as what we read in the books is a translation from Westron, errors of translation are bound to occur.
"Aurë Entuluva!" (Day shall come again!) - Húrin Thalion
Now please excuse me, as I need to go modify my Orc boss' opening dialog to include an extended etymological discussion with his fellows on the contextual meaning and appropriate use of the word 'Butt' in Orcish culture.
Maybe the player character can't speak Orcish very well and didn't know what word to put in there when he translated it.... :P
Though, come to think of it, isn't that what we're doing when we read anything from Middle-earth? An earlier post mentioned how Westron isn't English. Wasn't LotR meant to be read as a translation of the "original" Westron texts? So, maybe "butt" was just a Westron translation of an Orcish slang word which was then translated into English.
I think I am thinking *way* too hard about this.... o.O
Important Sindarin Phrases:
Lasto beth nîn. Tolo dan na ngalad. - Tangado haid! Leithio i philinn! - Naneth lîn mant hû nîn.
Regardless of when it's supposed to be, we know what style Tolkien was aiming for. It definitely wasn't the 15th century.
Yes, the language was definitely much more recent that the 15th Century. The characters in Tolkien's world don't sound at all like Chaucer (14th century) and more modern than Shakespeare (16th century). Going to the Founding Father's era and reading their letters and speechs, Middle-Earth folks sound more modern than even that. The 1950s and beyond are definitely way too modern to fit into Middle-Earth, so I would say somewhere between 1800-1930ish language would be in the ballpark. I'm not that familiar with speech from those years, so I can't really pinpoint it any better than that.
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Re: Butt. Seriously. BUTT?
Originally Posted by Lilka
Orc in Roots of Fangorn. "Get your butt over here."
WHAT? NO!
What next? Orcs saying 'dude'?
Tolkien did not say 'butt'. It's an Americanism, it is modern, it is slang. I will stand corrected if someone can find a source to prove the word was in use in Britain at that time, but it was barely in use when I was a child in the 1980s.
Please keep an eye on the proofreading. It was bad enough seeing "icky" and "cute".
Orcs might be too intelligent to use the term dude. Now trolls on the other hand...
.
This reminds me, about 20 years ago when I was watching one of Kevin Sorbo's Hercules episodes, there were some zombies chasing Kevin, and one of the zombies waved his buddies on and said, "Come on guys!"
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
After reading this thread, I don't know if should be mildly amused by the witty humor in some posts, or shocked and dismayed (if not disturbed) that Turbine is eying the topic's title and content with such keen interest.
I think I'll go with confused.
Now.. just going to walk.. slowly.. away.. and try to forget what I just saw. *Shakes head*
Lol, I don't even care to redownload the whole client to fix the one corrupted file.
Let me get this straight... they have in-game text using the word "butt" now in-game? Yet, I sit here perma-banned from this game for using two "inflammatory words" and two INTERNET VERNACULAR/NON-INFLAMMATORY words in /say and /OOC.
I demand my account be re-instated with full privileges if this truly is the case regarding their use of "BUTT" in game chat.
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