Thread: Butt. Seriously. BUTT?

Orc in Roots of Fangorn. "Get your butt over here."

WHAT? NO!

What next? Orcs saying 'dude'?

Tolkien did not say 'butt'. It's an Americanism, it is modern, it is slang. I will stand corrected if someone can find a source to prove the word was in use in Britain at that time, but it was barely in use when I was a child in the 1980s.

Please keep an eye on the proofreading. It was bad enough seeing "icky" and "cute".

Y'know, I have to admit, I read that and for a moment I thought you had me red handed there - but it turns out that the term is much older than I realized.


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...wed_in_frame=0

Wow, the things you learn about language from my.lotro.com.

Originally Posted by Lilka

Orc in Roots of Fangorn. "Get your butt over here."

WHAT? NO!

What next? Orcs saying 'dude'?

Tolkien did not say 'butt'. It's an Americanism, it is modern, it is slang. I will stand corrected if someone can find a source to prove the word was in use in Britain at that time, but it was barely in use when I was a child in the 1980s.

Please keep an eye on the proofreading. It was bad enough seeing "icky" and "cute".

It's actually far older than the American-English language (or the United States of America, for that matter). See Vastin's linky

Next thing you know you'll be running The Tower of Orthanc and Sauraman will say "Your power is sweet, but my power is groovy!"




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Immaturity strikes! And is gone with the wind...

Originally Posted by Vastin

Y'know, I have to admit, I read that and for a moment I thought you had me red handed there - but it turns out that the term is much older than I realized.


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...wed_in_frame=0

Nooooo. Mid 15th C, wow, I had no idea at all. I stand entirely corrected To b fair it may have dropped out of use considerably - I know when the Simpsons was all new and fresh, parents here didn't know whether to regard 'butt' as light-hearted or highly-offensive. The continued theft of 'Butt Hill' and 'Butt Road' roadsigns is a modern phenomenon, and the names weren't considered rude back in days those roads were named. But, if someone was saying it in the 15th century, then it's possibly that so were orcs.

It would also appear 'dude' was attested in 1883

'Groovy' in 1937!

Originally Posted by gallib

Next thing you know you'll be running The Tower of Orthanc and Sauraman will say "Your power is sweet, but my power is groovy!"




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Immaturity strikes! And is gone with the wind...

He already says 'snuff out'. In the spirit of the thread.

Originally Posted by Lilka

It would also appear 'dude' was attested in 1883

Probably as a result of Bill and Ted's time traveling exploits.

In all my years, I never thought I'd learn the history of a word through at thread that's entitled, "Butt. Seriously. BUTT?"

I have indeed become more knowledgeable today.

Originally Posted by Lilka

Nooooo. Mid 15th C, wow, I had no idea at all. I stand entirely corrected To b fair it may have dropped out of use considerably - I know when the Simpsons was all new and fresh, parents here didn't know whether to regard 'butt' as light-hearted or highly-offensive. The continued theft of 'Butt Hill' and 'Butt Road' roadsigns is a modern phenomenon, and the names weren't considered rude back in days those roads were named. But, if someone was saying it in the 15th century, then it's possibly that so were orcs.

It would also appear 'dude' was attested in 1883

'Groovy' in 1937!

Don't give in too easy. The word may have been around for some time butt the meaning from the context you point out isn't necessarily so. An easy example is the meaning behind the word gay. 40 - 50 years ago that word had an entirely different meaning than it does today in casual conversation.

I say we march to Boston with pitch forks and torches!

Originally Posted by mikalar

Don't give in too easy. The word may have been around for some time butt the meaning from the context you point out isn't necessarily so. An easy example is the meaning behind the word gay. 40 - 50 years ago that word had an entirely different meaning than it does today in casual conversation.

I say we march to Boston with pitch forks and torches!

According to the link posted by Vastin: "In sense of "human posterior" it is recorded from mid-15c." So yes, it was (sometimes) used with the same meaning as today.

Whilst it may (coincidentally?) indeed be an old word, it does look very out of place...

As does the bit in the first quest in Limlight where the guy tells you the trolls will probably end up using you for a football. It's true that in the time frame of Middle Earth, enemies' heads were often used as football - it was the prototype of the game - it's very jarring in the quest text, as it seems to be used in the modern sense of the idiom.

It's still an Americanism, at least in the context it's used in. It isn't something Tolkien would have wrote, isn't that the point?

Originally Posted by Chanah

As does the bit in the first quest in Limlight where the guy tells you the trolls will probably end up using you for a football. It's true that in the time frame of Middle Earth, enemies' heads were often used as football - it was the prototype of the game - it's very jarring in the quest text, as it seems to be used in the modern sense of the idiom.

"This won't do at all!" said Thorin. "If we don't get blown off or
drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and
kicked sky-high for a football."
"Well, if you know of anywhere better, take us there!" said Gandalf,
who was feeling very grumpy, and was far from happy about the giants
himself.
- The Hobbit

You folks are going to have to try harder than that if you want to catch me today.

If an orc is saying it, it should probably be more crude British, like "####". Is that too vulgar? I don't think so.

edit: apparently it is. been reading too much GRRM.

When you have to point people to an etymology dictionary to prove to people that a word usage isn't as modern as they think it is... is it really worth it? They've already been jarred out of the game world by the text. Wouldn't it be better to just stay away from words and phrases that are perceived as modern to avoid breaking immersion?

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

When you have to point people to an etymology dictionary to prove to people that a word usage isn't as modern as they think it is... is it really worth it? They've already been jarred out of the game world by the text. Wouldn't it be better to just stay away from words and phrases that are perceived as modern to avoid breaking immersion?

How can i know what you perceive?

i happened to know that the word was old, as in "butt end" (i had no idea it meant barrel or that cig-butt was that old of a term, though)

my perception here was not off. the fact that im READING what is supposed to be spoken is what "jars" me out of the game world. but that is just me.

After listening to Orcs with proper British accented voice-overs in some of the skirmishes, reading the word "Butt" blows the whole illusion for you?

Meh, after seeing Giants use the word 'git' I'm not really bothered by this.

Although that might have something to do with being British, I dunno. :P

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

When you have to point people to an etymology dictionary to prove to people that a word usage isn't as modern as they think it is... is it really worth it? They've already been jarred out of the game world by the text. Wouldn't it be better to just stay away from words and phrases that are perceived as modern to avoid breaking immersion?

One of the main purposes of primary education is to correct the universal impression that all things began at the moment of our individual births. Unfortunately, the educational system fails to achieve this in a frightening percentage of the young adult population. It would be better still if the player would educate himself to the point that truths and trivialities no longer "break immersion". In other words, yes overcoming ignorance is always worth the effort.

Perhaps we can have a butt of wine in future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_(volume)

Originally Posted by Vastin

"This won't do at all!" said Thorin. "If we don't get blown off or
drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and
kicked sky-high for a football."
"Well, if you know of anywhere better, take us there!" said Gandalf,
who was feeling very grumpy, and was far from happy about the giants
himself.
- The Hobbit

You folks are going to have to try harder than that if you want to catch me today.

OP... p'wned

Excellent thread.

What is jarring for me is not so for the next person - can't please all the folks all the time.

What is most refreshing is the contribution from Turbine folks - good humoured and keen - glad to see such passion for the game is still in evidence.

Originally Posted by Leira

According to the link posted by Vastin: "In sense of "human posterior" it is recorded from mid-15c." So yes, it was (sometimes) used with the same meaning as today.

I may not have played that area yet considering I'm lv44 but let me make a point.

The orc was probably talking to another orc so 'butt' would not work since it means HUMAN posterior not orc.

This is the wierdest topic I have ever seen on the forums.

Tolkein was hardly a purist himself. Things like "taters" and tomatoes did not exist in the Europe that Middle Earth was modeled on until "the New World" was discovered. In all probability even pipeweed owes its genesis to the concept of "smoking" that was brought to Europe from Virginia. The game also shows things like pumpkins, which are another "New World" crop. If someone wants to get picky then there are more things to point to, but I think this is more of a "tempest in a teapot" than something I'll lose sleep over.

Let's face it - Tolkien is using modern English to describe ancient events.

If we were being true to whatever perceived expressions were in use in the dim past none of us would understand what was being said (well, very few of us anyway).

Originally Posted by Wierdo

I may not have played that area yet considering I'm lv44 but let me make a point.

The orc was probably talking to another orc so 'butt' would not work since it means HUMAN posterior not orc.

This is the wierdest topic I have ever seen on the forums.

Congratulations. That is the weirdest comment on the weirdness of a topic I have ever seen. Definitely in keeping with your handle.

Vastin: 2, Community: 0

I believe the correct term would be "hide" or "bones" or anything orc like in those regards.

They need some better dialogue writers heh.

Originally Posted by Wierdo

I may not have played that area yet considering I'm lv44 but let me make a point.

The orc was probably talking to another orc so 'butt' would not work since it means HUMAN posterior not orc.

This is the wierdest topic I have ever seen on the forums.

Not so. Check a reliable source for historical usage, such as the Oxford English Dictionary. It was used to refer to animal posteriors in polite conversation and trade use, and the application to humans was probably an "extension".

Originally Posted by Vastin

"This won't do at all!" said Thorin. "If we don't get blown off or
drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and
kicked sky-high for a football."
"Well, if you know of anywhere better, take us there!" said Gandalf,
who was feeling very grumpy, and was far from happy about the giants
himself.
- The Hobbit

You folks are going to have to try harder than that if you want to catch me today.

I'm glad to see you guys still have rights to use The Hobbit.

Originally Posted by cossieuk

Perhaps we can have a butt of wine in future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_(volume)

TIL 1 butt = 2 hogsheads

Originally Posted by Leira

According to the link posted by Vastin: "In sense of "human posterior" it is recorded from mid-15c." So yes, it was (sometimes) used with the same meaning as today.

Bonus points if someone can find a 15th c. example that uses synecdoche like the modern expression does. Until then I maintain that an orc using the expression still sounds somewhat out of place.

Originally Posted by Evenprimes

Bonus points if someone can find a 15th c. example that uses synecdoche like the modern expression does. Until then I maintain that an orc using the expression still sounds somewhat out of place.

Isn't there a quests that describes a "heavy-mailed foot wearing a heavy-mailed boot"? Choose your battles wisely, I guess.

Originally Posted by trcanberra

Let's face it - Tolkien is using modern English to describe ancient events.

Yes, and he did so quite deliberately. He said he didn't want to be needlessly obscure. He was more than capable of being properly archaic, had he wanted to be, but he went with modern English with an only slightly archaic tone for flavour. Going back to what the OP said, in such modern English 'butt' as in 'backside' comes across very much as an Americanism regardless of its historical provenance.

The ones that really bug me are the inconsistencies in spelling. The game is full of references to fellowship manoeuvres, then suddenly out they come with the Book of Maneuvers. It grates a tiny bit whenever I see it.

Originally Posted by andys90

The ones that really bug me are the inconsistencies in spelling. The game is full of references to fellowship manoeuvres, then suddenly out they come with the Book of Maneuvers. It grates a tiny bit whenever I see it.

File a bug report for the typo in the spelling of the book, you are right they should be the same. If I saw it in game I would assume it was simply a typo that made it past them instead of an intentional spelling change. The window you get when you do a /bug in game has a category for typos.

Originally Posted by Evenprimes

Bonus points if someone can find a 15th c. example that uses synecdoche like the modern expression does. Until then I maintain that an orc using the expression still sounds somewhat out of place.

How about 14th c? Wyclif's Bible, prologue xii. Bi a figure clepid synodoches, whanne a part is set for al ...
That's the first such entry in my OED.

Back a little more on topic, I'd recommend that they not change it to 'Get yer fanny over here.' That one doesn't translate well from American to British nowadays. Pro tip: never pat a woman on the fanny in public in London.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Yes, and he did so quite deliberately. He said he didn't want to be needlessly obscure. He was more than capable of being properly archaic, had he wanted to be, but he went with modern English with an only slightly archaic tone for flavour. Going back to what the OP said, in such modern English 'butt' as in 'backside' comes across very much as an Americanism regardless of its historical provenance.

True. I, for one, am thankful that the trilogy didn't start:

"Whan that Sawronne with his ringyes soote
The soules of men hath perced to the roote,
..."

Seems odd that folks are forgetting that Tolkien used vernacular speech and slang rather often, especially when quoting the orcs -- which I rather think showed what he felt of the level of culture of any creatures who would debase the language so!