Thread: Ranked spiders Strat 9+

So we seem to like the Black Arrow one i thought i would start a spider one.
I recently had an opportunity to spar some ranked spiders and I am having a really difficult time landing any skills. I went two full spars the other day with out landing a hamstring or bracing they were all evaded/parried.

I assume spider have gotten some huge buff in the bpe department. I run with 17.2% Finesse so BPEs you would not think would be much of a problem.
I lost both of these spars and honestly its the first time this spiders beat me in a spar that I can recall including level 65's.
I love the update and the fact that some 1 v 1s are challenging again. However its nice to work out strats to.

I know people will say sprint and what not but these are good spiders and this is in a 1 v 1. So if ya sprint they burrow and wait it out.
Any comments or observations welcome Thanks for the input.

Yeah, they do seem to avoid the majority of attacks you make.


1. Start with hamstring. Like the BA, the spider likes to slow and kite with dots. If they've hit you with a stun, daze or root, just use blood rage and break out of it. If you can't get a slow on them, don't use sprint. Just wait it out with a bubble.

2. Hit them hard. They'll probably use web earth so just keep hamstring up.

3. They'll probably eat their pet to heal up again. If this happens, just keep DPSing and keep them slowed.

4. They burrow. If they haven't eaten their pet, now is the time to kill it. The spider will wait for web earth.

5. When they come out, use sprint and smash them in.


It's easier said than done because of all their avoidances but you can't really do much else. Just remember to save your sprint for the end, since that's normally when they try to kite you to death.

To be completely honest, I still find spider extremely easy. Just don't use sprint until they burrow and pop back up. Their DoTs are still mediocre at best. Once they burrow, get ready to sprint and reburn their 10-12k morale back down.

I've found weavers to be extremely difficult..well, the R8+ ones. The webbing makes it a pain to keep in melee range. I'll keep an eye on this thread too as more info is always a good thing! Thank you OP for starting it

Couple things. If you are having trouble with Sprint you should legacy it all the way (on a swap weapon if needed). Also trait athletic so that sprint is down to a 5-min cooldown. But don't use sprint early in the fight unless you have to.

When a spider burrows, kill its pet, wait for ooc, mount up and prepare to chase the spider that way. Be ready for your dismount hotkey and hamstring or stun horn.

Champs- explore your CC skills in the moors. They make a huge difference when used well.

Spiders have a number of things going for them... (note store bought skills included)
1. Catch Prey which is a percentage increase to their b/p/e. ~10%
2. Improved Burrow that lets them regen to full hp w/o having to eat their pet.
3. Drink Deep, an attack that returns as much hp as it takes away ~800-1000.
4. A number of stacking debuffs.
5. Increased in combat speed that negates the benefits of Hamstring if they do 'Poo the Earth.'
6. Increased dps based on 'Venom'... aka Fervour pips.
7. Increased survivability via audacity + Born of Shadow.
8. Lastly, most of their dps skills can be used on the move now.

Essentially a good spider can kite you to death... barring a few cds and some lucky crits. Even with a maxxed sprint leg... their burrow lasts longer than a 45s sprint... and by the time they get out, they'll just web the earth and kite you.

I'm fairly certain it they at all know what they're doing you probably won't win. I'm not seeing alot of ways to counter their 50%+ avoidance when catch prey is fully tiered besides sprinting out of range or popping the crafted horn.

Originally Posted by Wilantuk

So we seem to like the Black Arrow one i thought i would start a spider one.
I recently had an opportunity to spar some ranked spiders and I am having a really difficult time landing any skills. I went two full spars the other day with out landing a hamstring or bracing they were all evaded/parried.

I assume spider have gotten some huge buff in the bpe department. I run with 17.2% Finesse so BPEs you would not think would be much of a problem.
I lost both of these spars and honestly its the first time this spiders beat me in a spar that I can recall including level 65's.
I love the update and the fact that some 1 v 1s are challenging again. However its nice to work out strats to.

I know people will say sprint and what not but these are good spiders and this is in a 1 v 1. So if ya sprint they burrow and wait it out.
Any comments or observations welcome Thanks for the input.

There was a post about a year ago, where the community came up with rules for sparring in moors.
Most servers followed them tbh.

Main one was don't use any big skills that would make you escape etc.
So champs couldn't use say man heal. This means a spider wouldn't be able to burrow. So this spar wouldn't of counted straight away on a lot of servers.

Originally Posted by Thorebane

There was a post about a year ago, where the community came up with rules for sparring in moors.

Sounds incredibly relevant to current PvP.

Aye Isindar I am tending to agree that full tiered catch prey is dirty amount of avoidances. Ive started using a bit of a different attack rotation instead of a brutal heavy one when fighting them seems to work a bit better.

Hamstring isnt enough of a slow to counter poo and the + run spd spiders have so they will always be able to kite you. I've been using the 10% increase to run spd pots and that helps big time for not blowing sprint to early. One thing i notice that is on landscape if they burrow i just start to run towards nearest NPC's alot of the time the spider will pop out cause they still want the kill.

Thanks for the input all.

The guy that says hes finding spider extremely easy still share a few tips? all you did was regurgatate what i said in the original post. Please remember these are ranked good spiders im talking about not greenies.

Perhaps I just haven't fought great spiders then in a 1v1, but since U6 I have fought a r12 spider twice, three r9s and a r10 and have not lost a single fight with them (all of them being actually extremely easy). There is a great chance they had not yet adopted a new playstyle for their new skills, I'm not sure...Sounds like I have to hop on my spider and relearn the ins and outs of the class so I can be prepared to fight a spider knowing what's going on.

I hate losing a 1v1 and asking myself, what the #### just happened?

I've found there's a huge difference between weavers who know what they're doing and greenies who've bought their skills. On Landy we have some really good R7+ spiders.

I think we all managed to roll face over toons that didn't know how to click buttons (of course this bars any handicaps self imposed for 1v1 'etiquette')... One thing I have tried that proved useful was standing over a spider burrowed then hitting my 'ardour bubble' for the ~50% slow/attack duration debuff, before swapping back to fervour for a few more hits. In regards to Catch Prey, I have traited horn, which is as close as it's going to get to a guaranteed hamstring... similar strat to BAs poping Moving Target.

Yeh looks like traited horn is playing more of a role in current pvp mechanics. Thanks for sharing that little tid bit.

I must admit that I use quite a different tactic than most people, though it always worked for me, though it took longer than needed it seems. (NOTE: this is before U6, unfortunately we don't have many high ranked spiders on our server that are actually willing to spar/fight 1v1 so haven't had the chance yet to fight one after U6)

But I usually pop sprint straight away they burrow I wait with all cd's, kill their pet, this way they don't have a free heal up from the burrow skill and they lose their pet heal, after they'll start kiting, where I'll use bubbles and such simply to survive, and well I'm not sure how big a dps increase they got with U6 but before it was easy to survive 2.15m until sprint is back, then their burrow is on cd, and you can simply annihilate them

I wanted to add that I don't "spar" ... when I say 1v1 it's open field .. kill of be killed action.. not some candy mtn sort of thing.

If its set up spars or just out on the landscape discussion is still revelant to win fights. Its not so much that spiders got a dps increase though they did get one. Its the surivivability increase they recieved in addition to audacity.

THE FIRST RULE OF FIGHT CLUB...

To add onto what Isindar mentioned... you can run off Catch Prey, it's a 'location debuff/buff' that has a 20m radius... so you could hit horn once you notice it > hamstring > sprint 20m away > come back... of course the cd is 30s, just like drink deep, but doesn't require 5 'venom.'

Originally Posted by Enska

I must admit that I use quite a different tactic than most people, though it always worked for me, though it took longer than needed it seems. (NOTE: this is before U6, unfortunately we don't have many high ranked spiders on our server that are actually willing to spar/fight 1v1 so haven't had the chance yet to fight one after U6)

But I usually pop sprint straight away they burrow I wait with all cd's, kill their pet, this way they don't have a free heal up from the burrow skill and they lose their pet heal, after they'll start kiting, where I'll use bubbles and such simply to survive, and well I'm not sure how big a dps increase they got with U6 but before it was easy to survive 2.15m until sprint is back, then their burrow is on cd, and you can simply annihilate them

You won't be doing much hitting if they manage to tier catch prey at all, even a little bit. The longer the fight lasts the more trouble you're in. So bursting them down as fast as possible may be the best choice, CD's included.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

You won't be doing much hitting if they manage to tier catch prey at all, even a little bit. The longer the fight lasts the more trouble you're in. So bursting them down as fast as possible may be the best choice, CD's included.

hmm kk yea hope I get caught by one of them spiders soon then so I can test a bit how much stronger they've become with their survival

I want to add some stance thoughts in here...nothing fancy. I usually run in 4-deep glory. Nice parries, resists, and my strike skills are still very good. But since U6, esp. with ranked spiders and defilers, I have stance swapped in fight more. There are times that I sense that I'm losing the 'DPS race' in glory. When that happens i swap to fervour and hit a bubble/hedge, traited dire need, and then go on a heavy strike rotation in fervour for a few seconds.

Just some food for thought.

-B

(don't forget rend early and often...it reduces your opponents survivability while kiting.)

OK, I may have to say that I 'fought' a R14 spider yesterday. I couldn't land a single hit on them. Everything I did was missed/parried/evaded/blocked. By the time he had done 6k damage to me, I had done about 600 damage to him, just through reflects. I had finesse at 6k and agility at 550 so there was no way he should have eluded my hits at that level.

Moral of the story? Don't fight R14 spiders alone. You won't hit them. At all.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

OK, I may have to say that I 'fought' a R14 spider yesterday. I couldn't land a single hit on them. Everything I did was missed/parried/evaded/blocked. By the time he had done 6k damage to me, I had done about 600 damage to him, just through reflects. I had finesse at 6k and agility at 550 so there was no way he should have eluded my hits at that level.

Moral of the story? Don't fight R14 spiders alone. You won't hit them. At all.

Catch prey. Welcome to the discussion. Sprint out of range or 10s horn, then pray.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Catch prey. Welcome to the discussion. Sprint out of range or 10s horn, then pray.

10 second horn only lasts something like 5 seconds with full audacity.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

10 second horn only lasts something like 5 seconds with full audacity.

It's the only cc we have whose duration after audacity will toggle off the debuff.

Sadly I don't even use the horn traited to 10 secs. May have to add that to my switch rune for those times when i need it against them spideys.

I was watching some spideys fight the other day and catch prey is only supposed to go up at max 15% is it working as intended if they are BPE like 50-60% of attacks? it does seem buggy to me. Realistically 15% +10% most spiders have in BPE should only be around 25% then finesse which is 17% for me should knock that down. Could anyone else shed some light on how this works I must have it wrong.

Originally Posted by Wilantuk

Sadly I don't even use the horn traited to 10 secs. May have to add that to my switch rune for those times when i need it against them spideys.

I was watching some spideys fight the other day and catch prey is only supposed to go up at max 15% is it working as intended if they are BPE like 50-60% of attacks? it does seem buggy to me. Realistically 15% +10% most spiders have in BPE should only be around 25% then finesse which is 17% for me should knock that down. Could anyone else shed some light on how this works I must have it wrong.

It is working as intended. Catch prey gives +15% bpe. +15% block, +15% parry, +15% evade, added to their regular ~8% evade, ~7% parry, ~5% block. Add that up and they have 65% bpe, then subtract your 17% finesse and they have 48% bpe. Now add your 5% miss chance, plus clinging webs, which is another +7% miss chance. 48% +12%= 60%. 60% of your skills will b/p/e or miss (if you are attacking from the front so they can block and parry).

Originally Posted by babaju2

It is working as intended. Catch prey gives +15% bpe. +15% block, +15% parry, +15% evade, added to their regular ~8% evade, ~7% parry, ~5% block. Add that up and they have 65% bpe, then subtract your 17% finesse and they have 48% bpe. Now add your 5% miss chance, plus clinging webs, which is another +7% miss chance. 48% +12%= 60%. 60% of your skills will b/p/e or miss (if you are attacking from the front so they can block and parry).

Originally Posted by aad0italian

Yeah, it's almost as OP as having a bubble on a 30-45s CD and a huge bubble on a 5 min CD and a 45s sprint with mass dps to go with it.

I think I just showed you what a r12 spider can do Penny

-Evil

Originally Posted by Enska

I must admit that I use quite a different tactic than most people, though it always worked for me, though it took longer than needed it seems. (NOTE: this is before U6, unfortunately we don't have many high ranked spiders on our server that are actually willing to spar/fight 1v1 so haven't had the chance yet to fight one after U6)

But I usually pop sprint straight away they burrow I wait with all cd's, kill their pet, this way they don't have a free heal up from the burrow skill and they lose their pet heal, after they'll start kiting, where I'll use bubbles and such simply to survive, and well I'm not sure how big a dps increase they got with U6 but before it was easy to survive 2.15m until sprint is back, then their burrow is on cd, and you can simply annihilate them

Exactly what I do. I WANT them to burrow EARLY in the fight, not late where they can heal while burrowed.

Force them to burrow with full life and it's a win. Also this gets your sprint cooldown ticking so if the fight goes on long enough you can get a second sprint to really lay on the pain at the end of the fight.

In the few fights I've had since U6 I've found this still to be true. A bug with 12k+ morale is hard enough to grind down with full audacity, but if they burrow and heal up it's just too long of a fight to survive. Better to have them burrow at or near full health then only have to kill them once.

And yes, catch prey is nasty. Nasty nasty stuff.

When does catch prey become available? I was fighting a rank 7 spider in open field yesterday. We were both popping all the counters until the end when she had about 1500 morale. I think she may have popped something for evade because none of my finishers were hitting at that point. Raging Blades, Ferocious Strikes, etc. and no dead spider.

Good fight and she outsmarted me anyway by allowing chase down a broken leg hill after my sprint wore off...getting away with only 350 morale.

Originally Posted by Thane9

And yes, catch prey is nasty. Nasty nasty stuff.

Dam, spiders get a good skill, 10 more and maybe we'll be on par with champs!



Catch prey is rank 7.

Originally Posted by Warleadersneedlove

Yeah, it's almost as OP as having a bubble on a 30-45s CD and a huge bubble on a 5 min CD and a 45s sprint with mass dps to go with it.

I think I just showed you what a r12 spider can do Penny

-Evil

I'm glad spiders are a challenge again! For the longest time they've been nothing but cannon fodder. I look forward to more fights to see if there's much of anything to counter it.

Originally Posted by Warleadersneedlove

Dam, spiders get a good skill, 10 more and maybe we'll be on par with champs!



Catch prey is rank 7.

Any bug that is near my rank and can't win 50% of the time needs to hang it up.

This garbage about Champs being so OP is just that, garbage. I refuse to build as a tank, I'm a Champ and as such build for DPS. And from that perspective we're exceedingly well balanced against most ranked Creep classes.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

I'm glad spiders are a challenge again! For the longest time they've been nothing but cannon fodder. I look forward to more fights to see if there's much of anything to counter it.

absolutely agree... prior to U6 I felt so bad for weavers .. good to see they got their much needed improvements. Still.. I do want a strategy to kill them though :P

Originally Posted by Thane9

Any bug that is near my rank and can't win 50% of the time needs to hang it up.

This garbage about Champs being so OP is just that, garbage. I refuse to build as a tank, I'm a Champ and as such build for DPS. And from that perspective we're exceedingly well balanced against most ranked Creep classes.

You are purposefully gimping yourself and saying that you are not overpowered?? Does not compute.

Aren't you the one that claimed PvP atm is the most balanced it's ever been? LOLOLOLOLOLOL. 13 ranks and you still have trouble understanding your class, any champ that can't win well over 50% of the time needs to hang it up, it's not so difficult to counter a spider if you play smart and mouse turn well.

Originally Posted by Nuth_KM

absolutely agree... prior to U6 I felt so bad for weavers .. good to see they got their much needed improvements. Still.. I do want a strategy to kill them though :P

I don't see why, I had no problems with champs before the buff to spiders, have none now. I guess most people don't have a clue. Only 2 fun champ fights so far in 2 years

Originally Posted by Warleadersneedlove

Dam, spiders get a good skill, 10 more and maybe we'll be on par with champs!

... and then...

I don't see why, I had no problems with champs before the buff to spiders, have none now. I guess most people don't have a clue. Only 2 fun champ fights so far in 2 years

So your class needed a buff mephypoo? That does compute!

In all seriousness it's good to have spiders out again... just like wargs... need my slayer deeds!

Originally Posted by Turin_Turambar_The_F

So your class needed a buff mephypoo? That does compute!

In all seriousness it's good to have spiders out again... just like wargs... need my slayer deeds!

I would love to see a wide range of debuffs added to spiders, like lm's, so they can make a difference in RvR. Atm I still only take 3 spiders maximum, anymore than that is a waste.

Originally Posted by Warleadersneedlove

I would love to see a wide range of debuffs added to spiders, like lm's, so they can make a difference in RvR. Atm I still only take 3 spiders maximum, anymore than that is a waste.

You want to be more than Loremaster Lite... and have Guardian Pledge Lite? Next thing you'll want is dps, or a life leech... or an aoe snare... or a power leech?! Spiders have some pretty good debuffs (AD being one)... however, I don't believe they're gonna give you a dps debuff a la LMs, nor will they give you LM aoe dps. In regards to raid make up, there's a benefit to being on creepside rather than freepside... toons at your disposal. Lastly, in regards to class utility... if you see what Turbine has done with LMs and Burgs... then Minis and Guards... then Champs... etc.. they've taken away 'niche' roles and have 'spread the wealth'... dps + survivability is '########' outside mob grinding in pve... but they're trying to 'make it work' in pvp.