Thread: Freeps are too OP

Keep hearing complaints you need to outnumber Freeps to get a kill, guess Stainless didn't get the memo. U6 footage provided by Twong (yes Worg, Twong has been playing Creepside...if you stopped hugging the raid you might actually see him).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3w_70aKSyg

Nice video.

Homebrew, you are quite the beast.

Couple of notes (waiting to get flamed to holy heck for this)

- I noticed you switched up from the usual WL-Reaver duo to a Defiler-Reaver, so I am guessing that even you see that there's something seriously wrong with WL healing and capabilities.

- The vast majority of complaints are not at the 'freep zerg' or 'individual' level, in fact, the wargs and weavers right now are having a field day out there with solos/bad small groups (I expect a warg nerf coming up...), but rather group and group+ sized against organized resistance that actually heals. We all know there's a huge difference between opponents teamed up and supporting each other vs just a mass zerging around all concerned for themselves (that said, we've lately seen some freep raids that are all teamed up but do no better than a zerg when it comes to focus fire and healing). And typically at a rez circle, you're getting the ones and twos that have died who are not with their team or are solo.

Originally Posted by aklouie

Couple of notes (waiting to get flamed to holy heck for this)

- I noticed you switched up from the usual WL-Reaver duo to a Defiler-Reaver, so I am guessing that even you see that there's something seriously wrong with WL healing and capabilities.

- The vast majority of complaints are not at the 'freep zerg' or 'individual' level, in fact, the wargs and weavers right now are having a field day out there with solos/bad small groups (I expect a warg nerf coming up...), but rather group and group+ sized against organized resistance that actually heals. We all know there's a huge difference between opponents teamed up and supporting each other vs just a mass zerging around all concerned for themselves (that said, we've lately seen some freep raids that are all teamed up but do no better than a zerg when it comes to focus fire and healing). And typically at a rez circle, you're getting the ones and twos that have died who are not with their team or are solo.

Egos are blinding, aren't they?

Can anyone list the names of the Freeps in the video or am I forced to watch it ?

Are we dealing with ranked, experienced Freeps or ?

Kinmates vs Kinmates? (Stainless is a Freep tribe)

Lets get all the facts before making a judgement

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

Can anyone list the names of the Freeps in the video or am I forced to watch it ?

Are we dealing with ranked, experienced Freeps or ?

Kinmates vs Kinmates? (Stainless is a Freep tribe)

Lets get all the facts before making a judgement

No response, thats what I thought

Freeps are too OP

Baha, there's an understatement.

Take away their LI's and they won't be quite so OP.

Obviously the only way to gauge true balance is pitting the top 5% against the top 5% as this is clearly indicative of the average type of pvp you'll encounter on most days.

Why is it that freeps have to be from the single best raiding Kin on the server with the best gear available to 1-2% of the populace and these players magically represent an entire faction?

Originally Posted by zaskoda

werdz

You forgot to post a pic.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Obviously the only way to gauge true balance is pitting the top 5% against the top 5% as this is clearly indicative of the average type of pvp you'll encounter on most days.

Why is it that freeps have to be from the single best raiding Kin on the server with the best gear available to 1-2% of the populace and these players magically represent an entire faction?

No one ever said they were.

What we're saying is the +5% of one side trounces the +5% of the other side, consistently in raid-sized engagements. Primary culprit is healing imbalance between the sides (how many reavers/BAs worth of damage can a geared and smart freep healer outheal? From the HPS parses I've seen, even in ideal (no addle, no one disrupting inductions) a defiler can't outheal 2 freep DPSers. Must be nice to not have to hot target swap because your target is getting healed.... would certainly make it easier to be a target assist.

Originally Posted by aklouie

Couple of notes (waiting to get flamed to holy heck for this)

- I noticed you switched up from the usual WL-Reaver duo to a Defiler-Reaver, so I am guessing that even you see that there's something seriously wrong with WL healing and capabilities.

The main reason that it was a Defiler - Reaver duo (although we've always PvPed together...) rather than a WL - Reaver duo is that our WL quit during ROI. His stated reason was that WL crit heals made the class "easymode" and was too boring to play, although he used slightly harsher words. He preferred having to kite + induction for heals as fewer people were capable of it.

- The vast majority of complaints are not at the 'freep zerg' or 'individual' level, in fact, the wargs and weavers right now are having a field day out there with solos/bad small groups (I expect a warg nerf coming up...), but rather group and group+ sized against organized resistance that actually heals. We all know there's a huge difference between opponents teamed up and supporting each other vs just a mass zerging around all concerned for themselves (that said, we've lately seen some freep raids that are all teamed up but do no better than a zerg when it comes to focus fire and healing). And typically at a rez circle, you're getting the ones and twos that have died who are not with their team or are solo.

Freep groups built around good healers are hard to kill, but so are creep ones built around good healers. If a raid could have 10-12 Homebrew level defilers in it, it's hard to imagine them taking many deaths even against freep raids. Which brings us to the most important point. Ultimately a considerable fraction of raids on both sides are filled with empty bodies. A low ranked and inexperienced player contributes essentially nothing to a fight creepside and very little on freepside. This occurs in varying degrees, whether it be a melee who struggles to stay on targets due to poor movement or healers that are slow to heal a target. Turning away players who don't bring much to the table may not be your policy, but it is part of the picture when talking about balance. A creep raid of 20+ that only has 10-15 players giving serious contributions will of course struggle against a FF raid, even if not every individual in their raid is experienced in PvP or skilled, but have enough gear and PvE experience to make up for it.

Just from personal experience on freepside, fighting the best played creeps at similar numbers is far more difficult than bad ones even at 3:1 or 4:1 odds.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

His stated reason was that WL crit heals made the class "easymode" and was too boring to play, although he used slightly harsher words. He preferred having to kite + induction for heals as fewer people were capable of it.

He may have lost that view after trying to play against post-ROI freep DPS levels... Then again perhaps not, lol.

Just based off my observations in this video/ingame (I've never played the defiler class past R3), it appears that defilers have much greater longevity compared to a WL past his 15 seconds of fame. It also appears that the greater complexity of the class in terms of healing/DPS rotations allows for a much deeper level of skill involved in playing it and thus has greater potential. The main advantage of a WL in a duo compared to a defiler, I have always felt, has been the addition of a considerable amount of extra DPS (shouts + buffs).

Then again, I haven't healed creepside since U6...

I think you might be underestimating the misery that was WLs trying to 1v1 and getting any heals off small grouped pre-ROI.

As for now, I would still put defilers ahead of WLs in most situations. Although I do consider defilers to be one of the best all around classes on either side, but I may be biased from experiencing what Homebrew can do.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

Freep groups built around good healers are hard to kill, but so are creep ones built around good healers. If a raid could have 10-12 Homebrew level defilers in it, it's hard to imagine them taking many deaths even against freep raids. Which brings us to the most important point. Ultimately a considerable fraction of raids on both sides are filled with empty bodies. A low ranked and inexperienced player contributes essentially nothing to a fight creepside and very little on freepside. This occurs in varying degrees, whether it be a melee who struggles to stay on targets due to poor movement or healers that are slow to heal a target. Turning away players who don't bring much to the table may not be your policy, but it is part of the picture when talking about balance. A creep raid of 20+ that only has 10-15 players giving serious contributions will of course struggle against a FF raid, even if not every individual in their raid is experienced in PvP or skilled, but have enough gear and PvE experience to make up for it.

ARGH, LOTRO forums logged me out so I lost my extensive reply
Cliff notes

- 10-12 defilers in raid = no killing of major freep raids. Freep raids can field that many healers and still put out massive DPS
- The teams that hit FF were BAOS +Bteam + select others who know their jobs and classes, I quit doing the open thing a while ago to ease my frustration level with dealing with stupid people.
- Side note, have seen some pretty horrific freep raids nowadays. Had less than 3 groups of the above players and we took out a full 24 freep raid inside EC with 1 loss. Please continue to ball up against weavers and defilers and stand on blights and fire traps. They heal you, really!
- Stickeez is gathering data, but I ran a quick test, burnt every cooldown and heal and got ~600 HPS over a minute. Without burning 3 minute and 15 minute cooldowns, I could sustain 330 HPS single target in commander's stance and 280 in in brawler (which is the more frequent one). A veteran defiler posted 861 HPS burning everything, both are far inferior to what RKs and Minstrels can put out, and the difference is far greater in AoE heals freep vs creep. So as numbers scale up from small group, they tilt heavily in the freeps favor. This game has always had a differing balance 1-1, small group, group, and raid. Historically 1v1 and small groups favor creeps. Group+ favors freeps due to multiple support skills and AoEs (DPS, CC, and HPS)

Love the music selection!

The few times ive played creepside I've prefered my lower ranked defiler over the warleader. RIght now there is only one rank difference but even unranked I preferred the defiler over the warleader.

Twong + Homebrew = Best Duo of all time.

I was there for that fight with the two Captains. Decided I'd let the 2v2 go. Tried to catch myself in the video, but the camera never spun that way.

Originally Posted by Brayden

Twong + Homebrew = Best Duo of all time.

I was there for that fight with the two Captains. Decided I'd let the 2v2 go. Tried to catch myself in the video, but the camera never spun that way.

Would honestly like to see them 2v2 Eola and Meraithe.

The greatest hits of the 80's, 90's and Today!



If you're going to base it off of U5 claims, would have liked to see you do it U5. Freep video U5 and creep video U6 really isn't proving any points. (but you are right. It wasn't as bad as a lot of creeps were whining about. I was still getting kills and I'm terrible.) Way to show that level 72 hunter who's boss.
Next time can Twong scroll out? The boys he hangs with might like staring at his back but I'd like to see the game.

Originally Posted by Sezneg

Would honestly like to see them 2v2 Eola and Meraithe.

psh, that would be way to easy. I want to see them fight the best champ on the server, Balbaroids.
(Not to be confused with Balbaroy, the dude he's named after, who just transferred in.)

Good vid. A few nice 2v6+ there, seems creep healing holds even with base +0? audacity on kids reaver

Originally Posted by Saicheeze

Keep hearing complaints you need to outnumber Freeps to get a kill

Self-fulfilling prophecy mostly