Thread: Fire Frost CM is (actually) Impossible

Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm told that Saruman T2/T2C chests are where the nice melee loot is hiding, which makes me kind of sad as a Champ main. I basically have one piece of loot to look forward to in all of Orthanc at this point, and that bloody axe absolutely refuses to drop for us (unless, of course, it dropped last night when I wasn't there :P).

If the lorebook is any indication, the Might gear isn't even that good.

One could say the might gear might not be as good as people might think

Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm told that Saruman T2/T2C chests are where the nice melee loot is hiding, which makes me kind of sad as a Champ main. I basically have one piece of loot to look forward to in all of Orthanc at this point, and that bloody axe absolutely refuses to drop for us (unless, of course, it dropped last night when I wasn't there :P).

Makes me sad too but not sad enough to beat my head against a wall. We got a neat bracelet off of Shadow CM last night that I'd never seen before, 96 might + vit + icpr + crit. Sorry no screenshots a cappy got their hands on it before I could SS it. So there are still some things to look forward to amongst all the warden pieces.

Originally Posted by Comma44

= However, how are you going to have a collection of grims of by themselves somewhere without someone tanking them... standing still with 6+ grims is kind of a death wish. .

Is a guard tanking them? I tank all the grims from start to finish on our T2 runs and they don't wreck me. Challenge will make the fight last longer = more grims = more damage and I could see it being a major pain but 6 grims is nothing

Originally Posted by Comma44

Makes me sad too but not sad enough to beat my head against a wall. We got a neat bracelet off of Shadow CM last night that I'd never seen before, 96 might + vit + icpr + crit. Sorry no screenshots a cappy got their hands on it before I could SS it. So there are still some things to look forward to amongst all the warden pieces.

You mean this one?


67 Might, 67 Vit, 113,4 ICPR, 352 Crit

Originally Posted by Deorwyn

You mean this one?


67 Might, 67 Vit, 113,4 ICPR, 352 Crit

I've been looking for something with Kraftregeneration waehrend Kampf on it (I don't know how to make my keyboard produce umlauts, sorry).

Mostly I just wanted to type that.

Originally Posted by Deorwyn

You mean this one?


67 Might, 67 Vit, 113,4 ICPR, 352 Crit

Yes, that's the one. Is that new since update 6 or did we just have bad luck before?

Originally Posted by Deorwyn

You mean this one?


67 Might, 67 Vit, 113,4 ICPR, 352 Crit

Yep that would be it except for icpr + crit rating Not a bad bracelet though, my champ would definitely wear one of those.

Originally Posted by Burio

There seems to be no working tactic for it? The CM is just impossible.

And that is because nobody is thinking exactly as jwbarry.

Poorly designed fight? In my opinon, very.

Originally Posted by lutemaster

And that is because nobody is thinking exactly as jwbarry.

Poorly designed fight? In my opinon, very.

I don't think that jwbarry thinking tactic works. The last years players beat every challenge in this game, undermanned most of the content. I think that fire und frost ist working and some players get the tactics, but it's just overtuned. Same with Saruman, the tactic is clear but the fight is just overtuned and luck based (the other thread).

Maybe turbine isn't testing this fight in practise, and only check the math which went wrong...

Originally Posted by Fralin

One could say the might gear might not be as good as people might think

I see what you did there :-)

Wouldn't trade that bracelet for what i have, 201 morale isn't worth it imo. I'd rather use the skirmish ones instead since they hit for more and better hits = better heals = better heals in a long fight = one champ still living

Originally Posted by fralin

wouldn't trade that bracelet for what i have, 201 morale isn't worth it imo. I'd rather use the skirmish ones instead since they hit for more and better hits = better heals = better heals in a long fight = one champ still living

omg, they killed kenny!

Maybe one of these days the Devs can post a video of how they beat the encounter. Surely they have. Ammiright?

Originally Posted by bastiat1

Maybe one of these days the Devs can post a video of how they beat the encounter. Surely they have. Ammiright?

The devs don't try the raid for themselfs on made chars. They try it with god mode on so would have no idea about the damage taken for one thing.

My opinion is that the dev make a two mistakes by the mechanic.

- The Fire/Frost toss mechanic
- The Shadow grimm

I think when you can handle the toss, the incoming damage is curable. But so as it work it is not possible to handle the fight. Let it work like Frothmar, someone who is twenty meters away from the giant and have a frost or fire debuff gets a frost or fire toss or like the adds get marked someone and the marked target must go outside

If it would work as written, I am convinced that the fight is possible.

But the second Problems are the shadow grims, because they dont reduce the rage from the giants. They only increase the rage when you kill the Shadow grimms near the Giants and it may not even be meaningful and useful to kite them only.
I would be interested, whether it is so planned.

and that bubble mechanic.

I think you have no chance to bring them both down before the end. Cause you need 10k raid dps on 2 targets... Thats very high, and you loose some seconds if you on a grim that moment.

The Bubble is a little bit to high at the current mechanic. But when there where a chance to reduce the rage with the shadow grimm you can ignore the bubble and reduce it with the shadow grimm.

But fact is, at this time and as the giant work the incoming damage and moral from Grims and Bubble is overtuned.

Therfore I would be interested whether it is so planned with the shadow grimms and the toss.

I trust in you . It is interesting that all raids are on the same level now (Kalbak T2CM, Iorweth T2CM, Bukot T2CM, Crisiant/Usgarren T2, Saruman nothing (T1 lol)) and there is no progress since weeks.

Have anyone tried to kill a shadow grim when the bubble is on? What about having a frost grim close (or killing the grim) to the fire giant when the bubble is on?

Originally Posted by Thorebane

The devs don't try the raid for themselfs on made chars. They try it with god mode on so would have no idea about the damage taken for one thing.

I think you are wrong.

I think they don't test instances/raids at all.

Originally Posted by Thorebane

The devs don't try the raid for themselfs on made chars. They try it with god mode on so would have no idea about the damage taken for one thing.

Still though, THAT I'd like to see.

Originally Posted by lutemaster

I think you are wrong.

I think they don't test instances/raids at all.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were bored one day.

k.

The thread can now continue its topic without wasting time on hyperbole and baseless assumption about something that we all should have the sense and maturity to recognize as standard anyway.

Originally Posted by lutemaster

I think you are wrong.

I think they don't test instances/raids at all.

It's looks very much like you are correct.

But I don't think they really care about raids either, appalling T2 loot, challenges that appear to be still impossible 4 months after release with NO useful comment from any dev at all.

So Turbine will you definitively confirm that this challenge is possible with well geared toons by players who have completed all previous content, or do you have some weird hope that it's never cleared before RoR where the raid will become obsolete? Because if this does happen then it's clear that you now no longer care about raid content and just make it because you feel you have to and that raiders will now know that future raids will be released in bugged / impossible states and then completely ignored except for nerfing loot.

Of course they have a team to test it, guys. There's a reason why my post above looks so out of context - because they deleted a short conversation I had with a dude about it, describing their internal testing methods. Because I was there.

Stop waving doom-and-gloom and making juvenile assumptions. Turbine is a business, not a lemonade stand. Of course they test their stuff. Whether they test it correctly and thoroughly is another story, but YES, for goodness' sake,, they test their product. Oy. You guys sound like you're three. -_-

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

Stop waving doom-and-gloom and making juvenile assumptions. Turbine is a business, not a lemonade stand. Of course they test their stuff. Whether they test it correctly and thoroughly is another story, but YES, for goodness' sake,, they test their product. Oy. You guys sound like you're three. -_-

Peeps only know what they see. Maybe if you spent a few dozen nights banging into an immovable wall you'd have a better appreciation for people's states of mind about this.

A raid has never gone this long with 40% of the challenges still unbeaten, much less even one unbeaten.
By anyone. Even in Germany.

I've beaten my head against my fair share of walls on this game in the past, make no mistake; being part of the leadership team of a kin since its inception five years ago that raids will do that. I get where people are coming from when they're frustrated with the legitimacy of the encounter being beatable, I do - I'm not trying to quell that. There's a difference, though, when people just toss stuff out there without taking a few moments to think about it. I'm sure Turbine did test it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they tested it correctly, or thoroughly enough. But that doesn't mean Turbine doesn't test their own product, that's just ridiculously silly and blind and looking for things to hate on for the sake of venting frustrations, and that is what I am trying to quell. 'Cause it's childish and silly and doesn't server any point to even mention outside of being pissy and spiteful, and we should all know better of a company that exists, functions and thrives in the real world and contributes to the real economy.

...right?

Don't get me wrong, though. I feel most of ToO is way too ridiculously stupid hard. Not trying to imply otherwise. Just trying to help keep any discussion here worthwhile and not wasteful or wasted, though a thread that's gone on this long with the subject matter it was intended to address has probably done all it can do anyway. Not that that's any excuse to be a pinhead about the subject matter.

Testing their product (thoroughly) doesn't necessarily equal beating their challenges now, does it? Common sense says YES of course they do beat everything they create on hardest possible difficulty, but reality check SEEMS to say otherwise...
Come on T-guys, how hard is it to come in here and say "Yes we did it on HM with the way the raid was upon realease and we used regular yet superbly equipped chars". That doesn't break any rules does it? Not spoiling anything...

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

Of course they have a team to test it, guys. There's a reason why my post above looks so out of context - because they deleted a short conversation I had with a dude about it, describing their internal testing methods. Because I was there.

Are you trying to get yourself banned?

Originally Posted by The-Walrus

Testing their product (thoroughly) doesn't necessarily equal beating their challenges now, does it? Common sense says YES of course they do beat everything they create on hardest possible difficulty, but reality check SEEMS to say otherwise...

Agreed, I'm absolutely sure the standard raiding T1/T2 content is tested to be functional. But Challenges? Quite a bit more flaky. The reset issues, some are very easy, some are "impossible". Definitely seems as if they're implemented to be *theoretically* possible.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

I'm sure Turbine did test it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they tested it correctly, or thoroughly enough.

How is that not effectively the same thing? In fact it may be worse, the content may not be overtly broken but rather you only find out it is undoable after investing time and effort into it.

Turbine has failed miserably with this raid. Two of 5 bosses are unbalanced, they probably won't do a balance pass until at least 2 months.

EPIC FAIL!

Originally Posted by witchking782

Turbine has failed miserably with this raid. Two of 5 bosses are unbalanced, they probably won't do a balance pass until at least 2 months.

EPIC FAIL!

I guess,there is some kind of feature that allows u to beat this encounter.
Feature that no one still found.

Originally Posted by Siddharta

I guess,there is some kind of feature that allows u to beat this encounter.
Feature that no one still found.

I really doubt this. It seems just overtuned like saruman.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

I'm sure Turbine did test it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they tested it correctly, or thoroughly enough.

The above statement is correct.

Turbine did not test their products well enough before launch.

People who commented on the issue (myself included) are simply using sarcasm

And now, back on topic again:

I strongly believe that the Fire & Frost Wing on tier 2 Challenge Mode is extremely poorly designed and flawed, since it is a matter of perfect strategy as the developer intended, or total fail. It is not apparent for the player/s what needs to be done or performed in order to complete the challenge.

Most software will contain visual clues, helpful tooltips, embedded text, or other guides to help a user, or a gamer perform a specific task. So if you ask me, I think F&Ft2CM is a complete oxymoron; a perfect fail.

Take into consideration that not a single person in the world (except the developer who developed it) has been able to figure out the mechanics and see the alleged visual clues to complete it.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy more difficult instances and challenging content, but there is a fine line of difference between something being difficult and something being poorly designed, and Turbine has crossed that line.

I started analyzing F&F T2 videos to try n get specifics. First video was single tank crisiant while other giant and grims got kited. What I found; #s = rage level, time = time between rages:

1 - 23s
2 - 23s
3 - 23s
4 - 23s
_____ crisiant dead

5 - 20s (bubble expired)
6 - 26s
7/8 - 3s (death)
9 - 21s
10 - 21s
11 - 20s (bubble expire)
12 - 1s
13 - 21s
14 - 21s
____ 2nd giant dead

This indicates raging up can be much less than 30s, at least with this method. After 1st boss died it appears the rage skipped 1 timed rotation, not tier rage up or down. It also appeared the death caused rage timer to shorten to 21s. Will look at other videos

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

I started analyzing F&F T2 videos to try n get specifics. First video was single tank crisiant while other giant and grims got kited. What I found; #s = rage level, time = time between rages:

1 - 23s
2 - 23s
3 - 23s
4 - 23s
_____ crisiant dead

5 - 20s (bubble expired)
6 - 26s
7/8 - 3s (death)
9 - 21s
10 - 21s
11 - 20s (bubble expire)
12 - 1s
13 - 21s
14 - 21s
____ 2nd giant dead

This indicates raging up can be much less than 30s, at least with this method. After 1st boss died it appears the rage skipped 1 timed rotation, not tier rage up or down. It also appeared to cause rage timer to shorten to 21s. Will look at other videos

Yeah, the rage timer can get fairly screwy if you don't really engage one (or both) of the giants.

In some early testing, we found that you could keep both rage timers at 0 indefinitely if no one bothered attacking the giants after they were initially aggroed. That turned out to be far less helpful than we thought - we spent a few hours trying varying combinations of one, then two, then three people attacking (then four, etc.); keeping debuff at or below 3 on all combatants; keeping debuff at or below 5 on all combatants; keeping groupwide debuff below a certain threshold (50 total, for instance); ultimately it all turned out to be wasted as once we actually tried putting any real DPS into a giant his rage meter went up.

It was neat to spend a day or two thinking that we'd found some magical (well, cheesy) way to keep rage at zero the whole time by having a guardian run in circles forever. :P

Originally Posted by Lestache

It was neat to spend a day or two thinking that we'd found some magical (well, cheesy) way to keep rage at zero the whole time by having a guardian run in circles forever. :P

Can grims (any of the 3) be spawned without starting the rage timer? I did similar testing when ToO was fairly new and can't remember the specifics. I thought the first set of grims were morale based and after that it went to a timer or something. Would be neat if grims could be spawned without starting rage timer.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Can grims (any of the 3) be spawned without starting the rage timer? I did similar testing when ToO was fairly new and can't remember the specifics. I thought the first set of grims were morale based and after that it went to a timer or something. Would be neat if grims could be spawned without starting rage timer.

As far as I remember, the grims didn't start spawning until the giants had built some rage. When we held off building the rage, the grims held off as well. Interestingly, I seem to remember that if we avoided allowing the giants to gain any rage until after the time when the fire/frost grims usually spawn, that the first grim spawn would be shadow grims... sometimes. Just a weird fight, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Can grims (any of the 3) be spawned without starting the rage timer? I did similar testing when ToO was fairly new and can't remember the specifics. I thought the first set of grims were morale based and after that it went to a timer or something. Would be neat if grims could be spawned without starting rage timer.

I believe when we tested this it was indeed a morale threshold that needed to be crossed. Rage did tick up, but no grimms spawned until serveral k damage was done.