7. Kiling an elemental grim
7.1. in shadow phase of its giant reduces rage by 1 on its giant. It is not necessary to swap grims!
7.2. in elemental phase does not affect rage
That hasn't been our experience. Killing a Fire/Frost grim in Shadow phase near its giant increased the rage for that giant by one.
That hasn't been our experience. Killing a Fire/Frost grim in Shadow phase near its giant increased the rage for that giant by one.
I only remember that killing the grim at the contrary giant (no matter what phase he's in) reduces rage, but your objection sounds feasible. Did anyone kill a shadow grim in elemental phase?
9. When both giants are tanked seperately far enough from each other the rock throw does not occur
do you happen to have a fraps of your raid doing T2 with giants tanked far apart? You mentioned bubbles/corruptions appear to take slightly longer starting at a minute. Seems like keeping them apart may be another factor to the fight besides the rock toss? idk
do you happen to have a fraps of your raid doing T2 with giants tanked far apart? You mentioned bubbles/corruptions appear to take slightly longer starting at a minute. Seems like keeping them apart may be another factor to the fight besides the rock toss? idk
Not of the tries where they were tanked apart. Last time I used bandicam, but it didn't work as it was supposed to. I will do more next tuesday using fraps.
Not of the tries where they were tanked apart. Last time I used bandicam, but it didn't work as it was supposed to. I will do more next tuesday using fraps.
You can also try MSI Afterburner. It is a video card tool based on RivaTuner that has the ability to capture video. It is NOT limited to only MSI cards as it works with any card.
tried it a bit today, all i can say is it's possible to do, it needs some time to work on, you need perfect execution, good healing and good damage, but thats all possible.
But there are 2 big problems that just make it so luckdependent that we don't want to work on it right now:
1.) buggy corruptions.
sometimes (~ every 3 times) a giant says "my power builds" but he doesn't get a corruption. A few seconds later you get kicked and the rage goes up. You can't do anything about it, since you can't remove it, since it's not there, but it still triggers the rage going up and the kick.
2.) serverlags, every single day, every single fight, we have annoying serverlags, sometimes just one or two seconds, sometimes up to 10 seconds. it got better with the last patch, but it's still by far not as good as usual and far away from being a fluid gamingexperience. At shadow today for example i was ~800-900 dps under my usual dps, just because i couldn't do my normal rotation, buffs kept expiring because of lags, etc, which is a huge difference. But thats not a problem of the fire&frost encounter, it just has a big influence there since you have to be able to react in time.
Well, with update 7 it will be done for sure, probably a week later, because everyone wants to do saruman, but i think with the changes it should be very possible. A fix of the corruptions would be nice, it's just frustrating to see an attempt falling apart without being able to do anything against it.
PS: i think tanking them apart will be the way to go for cm.
Last edited by sdf-blarelius; Apr 26 2012 at 06:03 PM.
Blarelius, Blanadir, Dorilion, Lirania.
Kinship: Streiter der Freiheit - Raid: Legion der Freunde
Would anyone like to venture an opinion on whether the nerfing of the grims has made this fight doable?
It's doable. Tough as all get out, but doable. (We haven't done it yet, but we feel like we're on the right path, and from a comment made in another thread, I think that at least one of the German kins is even closer than we are.)
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
The fight is definitely doable now just a matter of execution. Is it the right level of difficulty for one of the first bosses in the instance? That's a whole other story.
Kamriel 75 CHN, Kamsterr 75 LM, HideHobitsHere Bear Tank Extraordinaire
Being close is not close enough it would seem. Having 3 rage & each giant on 100k each is easily doable.
Reducing that three rage and the time it takes to do so is what the problem is.
The timers of this fight are well off, Elemental spawn, Corruptions & a Bubble at the same time, good luck with that.
Giants doing 2 shadow crush skills that each hit for 5k+ in a 4 second period = game over.
The reduction of the Grim's morale is great as with the CC break, that still doesn't fix the problem, we were able to take down the grims before the most recent update.
The amount of damage the Giants do in the shadow phase, plus the shadow grims & the general amount of time this fight will take to do is where the problem is, JW please look at this again.
How do you are able to bringt the Giants at 3 rage?
What strategy are you doing?
Did you kill the bubbels?
let you spawn more than one grim?is that handable?
Sry for my bad englisch and for all the questions.
You can't "stock up" on grims, and indeed the timing is way off. You need a lot of things to go perfectly right in order for this to work, though I think it may be possible.
We were able to get pretty far after a few tries, but the combination of server lag and randomness (misses, crits, timing) just takes all the fun out of it. I guess if a kin is willing to waste away at the fight for many hours it will get done, but there just isn't much point to it right now.
The fight is doable, certainly. It will just take a stellar group of individuals. I'll be anxious to see who gets it first. Imo it is quite possibly harder than Saruman T2 CM, which is kind of a /facepalm since its an early lock in the raid.
I'm surprised one of the german/euro kins/raids hasn't beaten it yet. Then again, perhaps its not the feather in the cap that Saruman T2 CM is/was. I probably won't be as excited about completing this fight as I was Saruman, but that's personal preference I suppose.
You can't "stock up" on grims, and indeed the timing is way off. You need a lot of things to go perfectly right in order for this to work, though I think it may be possible.
We were able to get pretty far after a few tries, but the combination of server lag and randomness (misses, crits, timing) just takes all the fun out of it. I guess if a kin is willing to waste away at the fight for many hours it will get done, but there just isn't much point to it right now.
Not sure what you mean by "'stock up' on grims", Mel. It's possible to spawn multiple grims if you want, and it's possible to survive having multiple grims exploding near a group. The damage the grims do is far less now than it was.
That being said, it is quite silly that lock 1 appears to be the hardest fight, and yeah - I think that you need to have a perfect run and/or the patience to deal with a fight that may last 20-30 minutes if anything goes wrong.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Does anyone know what's spawning the 8+ shadow grims? We take one giant to 200K then bang on then atleast 8 shadow grims spawn and wipe us out within a second.
We cannot find any reason and over 6 tries it's always happened... anyone?
Gilrain - Draigoch First 13/10/2011
Celestrata - Surprise, it's not a glitch!
Does anyone know what's spawning the 8+ shadow grims? We take one giant to 200K then bang on then atleast 8 shadow grims spawn and wipe us out within a second.
We cannot find any reason and over 6 tries it's always happened... anyone?
At the risk of sounding cryptic, what spawns 8+ grims is the exact same thing that spawns 1 grim, (or 2, or 3, etc.) and it's completely within your control.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Does anyone know what's spawning the 8+ shadow grims? We take one giant to 200K then bang on then atleast 8 shadow grims spawn and wipe us out within a second.
We cannot find any reason and over 6 tries it's always happened... anyone?
Anyone standing in the 180 degree frontal arc of a giant spawns grims. 1 person = 1 grim, 8 people = 8 grims.
Not sure what you mean by "'stock up' on grims", Mel. It's possible to spawn multiple grims if you want, and it's possible to survive having multiple grims exploding near a group. The damage the grims do is far less now than it was.
That being said, it is quite silly that lock 1 appears to be the hardest fight, and yeah - I think that you need to have a perfect run and/or the patience to deal with a fight that may last 20-30 minutes if anything goes wrong.
I think what they're meaning is that killing a second grim does not seem to tier the boss down, thus spawning multiple grims becomes pointless. I haven't observed this myself (usually lose track in the chaos of it all) but others observed it even before this latest patch. If that's the case then I'm not even sure if this boss is mathematically possible, since burning every single bubble is (in my opinion) not possible. For one of the first locks, this boss is still not worth the time or effort sadly and I don't plan on torturing my kin for too much longer over it at this point.
Kamriel 75 CHN, Kamsterr 75 LM, HideHobitsHere Bear Tank Extraordinaire
I think what they're meaning is that killing a second grim does not seem to tier the boss down, thus spawning multiple grims becomes pointless. I haven't observed this myself (usually lose track in the chaos of it all) but others observed it even before this latest patch. If that's the case then I'm not even sure if this boss is mathematically possible, since burning every single bubble is (in my opinion) not possible. For one of the first locks, this boss is still not worth the time or effort sadly and I don't plan on torturing my kin for too much longer over it at this point.
Killing a second grim tiers the rage down.
You may be right on the bubbles. We haven't figured out a way to burn each bubble every time ourselves.
Edit: One oddity that we've seen a few times is one of the giants (and always just one) getting a point of rage right as the fight starts - as in, within 3-4 seconds of the start of the fight. And no, try as I might, it's not because I've killed one of our hobbits.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
You may be right on the bubbles. We haven't figured out a way to burn each bubble every time ourselves.
Edit: One oddity that we've seen a few times is one of the giants (and always just one) getting a point of rage right as the fight starts - as in, within 3-4 seconds of the start of the fight. And no, try as I might, it's not because I've killed one of our hobbits.
I've seen this, but as far as I know its just the event tracking panel, the boss doesn't tier up on his buff/debuff bar.
we have tried a couple of runs in F&F and imo if there is a way to dps all bubbles down then the fight will be done.but even so you still have to worry about corruptions,grim spawns and bubbles,shadow slam and all 4 come almost at the same time.so timeing in the fight is well off and frankly you need a group of exceptional players to get this done,and even then its a strech.
for a boss early in the raid this fight is too hard to do atm.
Wait a second, you mean one can deliberately spawn multiple elemental grims (as much as the group can handle) by having 2 or more players standing in front of the giants and then kill those grims near the other giant to reduce rage by more than one per grim wave? If this was the case then there would be no need to kill every bubble, as spawning two elemental grims per elemental phase will also take care of the bubble rage.
Wait a second, you mean one can deliberately spawn multiple elemental grims (as much as the group can handle) by having 2 or more players standing in front of the giants and then kill those grims near the other giant to reduce rage by more than one per grim wave? If this was the case then there would be no need to kill every bubble, as spawning two elemental grims per elemental phase will also take care of the bubble rage.
If he is right that a second grim also reduces rage yes! BUT it's hard do handle 2 grims per giant. Puts much pressure on the healer.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
1)You can spawn as many grims as you want.3+ for each giant though is almost 100% guarantee'd wipe.
2)Number of peeps in giant LoS = number of grims spawning.
3)You can kill as many ELEMENTAL grims as you want, as soon as you want( if you can lol ) and rage will go down or up properly.
4)Shadow grims do NOTHING GOOD afaik. ( PLEASE correct me if i am wrong , i beg you lol )
5)This fight can not be done Challenge mode in less than like 10-15 minutes at best.( Cannot be nuked down or whatever , just stabilise it and wait )
6)Bubbles CAN be both killed . Obviously it all depends on perfect gearing and gameplay level of the players involved and perhaps also class setup !
7)You can't do the fight without separating the giants , at least at some point if not for the entire fight.
8)There are a tone of things to do later on in the fight which makes it hardly doable.If you do one mistake ( moar rage ) you add more time in the fight ; it owns your soul really when that happens lol !
Conclusion : I highly doubt we miss any mechanic on the fight.We know we are on the right track ,
but it just doesnt work. It might seem for a while that you know how to do it and you CAN kill them without rage , but then realise that you are still far away from your goal.For someone that hasnt ventured deep in the fight but only tried it a few times and has an overview , it could seem ridiculous that they are not dead yet , but honestly , its a dead end fight.I doubt it will be killed by more than 2 kins worldwide with its current difficulty ; at least until lvl 85.
However we could miss something , so any help would be nice : P
1)You can spawn as many grims as you want.3+ for each giant though is almost 100% guarantee'd wipe.
Hmm ... since U7 the dmg of the grims isn't that bad anymore. You could probably handle 2 or maybe 3 grims at a time. You could always move your squishies away from the grims and possibly pop fellowship's heart and/or In Harm's Way+Last Stand to mass reduce rage at some point of the fight (depending on how many bubbles weren't killed)
Originally Posted by BotLike
2)Number of peeps in giant LoS = number of grims spawning.
That mechanic is pretty clear.
Originally Posted by BotLike
3)You can kill as many ELEMENTAL grims as you want, as soon as you want( if you can lol ) and rage will go down or up properly.
That's the part I didn't know. I was under the impression that at least prior to U7 only 1 grim per wave affects rage, so spawning more than 1 grim per wave/elemental phase didn't do any good. That's how I read the informatio in this thread prior to Thunderloin's statement.
Originally Posted by BotLike
4)Shadow grims do NOTHING GOOD afaik. ( PLEASE correct me if i am wrong , i beg you lol )
Check
Originally Posted by BotLike
5)This fight can not be done Challenge mode in less than like 10-15 minutes at best.( Cannot be nuked down or whatever , just stabilise it and wait )
That's what I was thinking about. How about just nuking through it, killing only one grim per phase in the beginning and trying to handle the bubbles and corruptions as good as possible. And then, after both giants have been brought down to a killable morale thereshold, just spawn as many elemental grims as necessary to bring each giant's rage down to zero. Pop every emergency skill, kill the grims and then the giants. That's the theory, practice may prove to be hard, due to inc dmg.
Originally Posted by BotLike
6)Bubbles CAN be both killed . Obviously it all depends on perfect gearing and gameplay level of the players involved and perhaps also class setup !
In theory, yes. In practice it's very hard to actually kill EVERY bubble. With our raid makeup we have on burg and one loremaster. The burg group can actually kill the bubble in time, the LM group struggles to do this. I doubt that currently any raid out there actually manages to kille EVERY bubble every single time they pop up, especially if you get grim spawn and corruptions simultanously whilst also recovering from the distributed shadow attack
Originally Posted by BotLike
7)You can't do the fight without separating the giants , at least at some point if not for the entire fight.
Hmm ... since U7 the dmg of the grims isn't that bad anymore. You could probably handle 2 or maybe 3 grims at a time. You could always move your squishies away from the grims and possibly pop fellowship's heart and/or In Harm's Way+Last Stand to mass reduce rage at some point of the fight (depending on how many bubbles weren't killed)
a bit too optimistic normaly you will be get shadow phase soon after that spawn, then you need to heal shadow crush too. if you move away squishes have fun see you melees get really crushed. It may seems possible but is it possible in practise? I doubt that! There are corruptions and bubbles to when you fighting multiple grims. Have fun to handle this. At the end and you do it right you may get zero effect.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
In theory, yes. In practice it's very hard to actually kill EVERY bubble. With our raid makeup we have on burg and one loremaster. The burg group can actually kill the bubble in time, the LM group struggles to do this. I doubt that currently any raid out there actually manages to kille EVERY bubble every single time they pop up, especially if you get grim spawn and corruptions simultanously whilst also recovering from the distributed shadow attack
With all going on in this fight i think its impossible in theory too (with a normal class makeup). You need to do 150k in 30 sec that are 5k dps. BUT you don't have 30 sec, like all bubbles mechanics all casts that happen before the bubble is on the target go through the bubble. A hunter that is casting a swiftbow when bubble appear will not dmg the bubble with that skill. Only next skill will damage the bubble. You can see this very often happen in the ettenmoors. So let's say you have 28 seconds.... it's ~5,4k dps. May you were fighting a grim at that time for target switching you will loose some more time. say you need 5,5k dps. Sometimes both giant's get his bubble at the same time. You will need than 11k raid dps to kill every bubble. A raid dps that you may reach in the bukot fight for incoming damage is no problem but in fire and frost fight.
We are not trying this really hard, for me it seems to be impossible to kill in challenge mode. But may someone can prove me wrong
Last edited by Burio; May 24 2012 at 11:05 AM.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
a bit too optimistic normaly you will be get shadow phase soon after that spawn, then you need to heal shadow crush too. if you move away squishes have fun see you melees get really crushed. It may seems possible but is it possible in practise? I doubt that! There are corruptions and bubbles to when you fighting multiple grims. Have fun to handle this. At the end and you do it right you may get zero effect.
That's my concern, too - that it's just too hard to actually pull off. As you already said, sometimes many things come together at the same time (shadow phase, corruptions, bubble) to make things even harder.
Originally Posted by Burio
With all going on in this fight i think its impossible in theory too (with a normal class makeup). You need to do 150k in 30 sec that are 5k dps. BUT you don't have 30 sec, like all bubbles mechanics all casts that happen before the bubble is on the target go through the bubble. A hunter that is casting a swiftbow when bubble appear will not dmg the bubble with that skill. Only next skill will damage the bubble. You can see this very often happen in the ettenmoors. So let's say you have 28 seconds.... it's ~5,4k dps. May you were fighting a grim at that time for target switching you will loose some more time. say you need 5,5k dps. Sometimes both giant's get his bubble at the same time. You will need than 11k raid dps to kill every bubble. A raid dps that you may reach in the bukot fight for incoming damage is no problem but in fire and frost fight.
That's exactly how I see it. You may be able to kill a couple of those bubble, but killing all of them? Each and every time? Our lm group didn'T stand a chance to kill the bubble, as besides the burg having way better ST DPS than a LM, the group was also missing Reveal Weakness. We do not plan to restructure our raid for that one Challenge Mode, as we do the rest of the raid with the exact same makeup. There's no point to exclude certain chars just to invite more burgs and/or DPS.
Originally Posted by Burio
We are not trying this really hard, for me it's impossible to kill in challenge mode. But may someone can prove me wrong
We'll see about that. Currently I'm still in doubt this challenge can be done, even after the patch.
with regards to the rage mechanic, would it be feasible to take 4 champs and 2 lms for dps/cc?
for example, setup could be:
group 1:
1 mini
1 grd
1 captain
1 lm
2 champ
group 2:
1 mini
1 grd
1 captain
1lm
2 champs
Here's my thought:
elementals spawn, put someone else in front of Usgarren to spawn 2 grims on one side, one grim on Crusaint's side.
shadows spawn, 1 grim per side
elementals spawn, put someone else in front of Crusaint to spawn 2 grims, one grim on Usgarren's side.
in effect.... every elemental phase spawn 3 grims, every shadow phase spawn 2.
Whenever 2 spawn on a side, those champs dps them down.(one champ per grim both champs and lm aoe'ing, the grims should hit the immune phases at about the same time for champ horn, or lm cc if it's a bit off.), and the 2 champs and lm kill the other quickly.
And you still have solid corruption removal and debuffing.
Why do it this way? You can completely ignore one of the giants bubbles every time the bubble comes up, and still be at the same rage as if you HAD burnt down both bubbles. Of course, you'd still have to burn through one of the bubbles to stay on track, but that's easier than going through two of them.
I think the weakness in this fight is the grims' low morale. To me, it comes down to the choice of trying to burn down two huge bubbles, or trying to quickly kill an extra grim with 22k morale every time he's on elemental phase.
Just my .02, thought it wouldn't hurt to contribute.
Edit: another question....Do the two bosses need guards to be tanked? Can you do it with warden? champ? captain even?
Last edited by mrfigglesworth; May 24 2012 at 01:31 PM.
That hobbit you just called fat? He's skipping 2nd breakfast.
The dwarf woman you called ugly? She spends hours braiding her beard so you can differentiate her from a dwarf man.
The Uruk-Hai you just killed? he's been abused by Saruman.
See that Gollum creature with the gangly limb and large eyes? For 500 years the ring poisoned his mind.
That elf you just made fun of for crying? She just lost her wizard friend to a Balrog.
Put this as your signature if you're against bullying in Middle-earth!
isnt it true that he changes a phase every 1 minute?i think u can see it on their body when shadow phase comes as they turn purple.and i thought it doesnt mather in which phase you kill a grim,as long as you dont kill a shadow one next to a boss.am i wrong?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
I'd figured others were close than we are, but maybe I'm wrong. I agree its a very challenging fight, possibly too challenging for an early lock. I will say that I think Saruman T2 CM is just right for difficulty in its position.
As far as this fight goes though, some of the more difficult mechanisms have been identified here. There are ways around many aspects, but the true challenge is finding ways to handle everything all at once. The fight to me seems like a semi-DPS race, semi-finesse, semi-CC_heavy, semi-survival fight all wrapped up into one. I think someone will get this fight down just based on the progress we've made, but I expect very few kins will beat this on-level.
Overall, since the rewards for completing this fight are few and far beyond just the pride and satisfaction of beating it, I don't expect many kins will take the time to overcome this challenge. Time and effort will never be rewarded in a satisfactory fashion.
A mad thought I've had would be to nuke one boss before the first tier up (30 sec). While it's being nuked have 3 people in front of the boss for 3 grims to kill later. Once it's dead, dps shifts to the second boss whle the grims are lowered to the second CC point. Each time the giant tiers up a grims is CC'd and killed keeping at 0 the majority of the time. With 3 grims it gives you 3 total tier ups which is 2 min (kill before the 4th tier up).
Ignoring level difference, the giants have approximately equal morale to the turtle. With an 11 man mixed group (not stacking for dps more than usual) we were able to kill the turtle in just under 30 sec. While the giants are higher level, their mitigations are significantly lower, so it's quite possible it could be done.
We tried now for 3 raid days (ignoring saruman right now)
It is possible to get both giants (separeted more than 40 m) down to 440k togehter. Then the new mechanic starts and reduces all 15-20 seconds the rage down by one. It looks very good...but then comes the next shadow crush. The main point is getting both giants in 150 seconds down to 440k together. Then the new mechanic starts and this is half way...
Problem bubble. We ignore all bubbles --> so rage goes up 1 for all 90 seconds.
Corruptions with melee fighters always a problem --> rage up 1 by 90 seconds.
We get two elements for each giant and this reduces rage by 2 every 120 seconds.
So Rage goes up for each giant:
+1 bubble, +4 timebased = +5
down
-5 new mechanic, -2 adds = -7
But all corruptions must be taken... Right now we can not handle it. The ministrel could be the answere because in infight he can take 5 corruptions.
For all we can hold rage and even reduce it by one every 2 Minutes, but EVERYTHING must work. If corruptions does not work for both giants we stand still... and if someone dies rage goes up one for each giant.
Our main problem ist the shadow crush during positioning (comes after 5sec, 10 sec, 30sec and 35 sec in shadow phase- every time 4 hits). Without this attack the healer can go infight and take 5 corruptions by himself. But in shadow phase this is a highway procedure for ministrels...
Does anyone understand the stone toss? is it random? Right now it seems that anyone in range of 40 m is attacked.
A mad thought I've had would be to nuke one boss before the first tier up (30 sec). While it's being nuked have 3 people in front of the boss for 3 grims to kill later. Once it's dead, dps shifts to the second boss whle the grims are lowered to the second CC point. Each time the giant tiers up a grims is CC'd and killed keeping at 0 the majority of the time. With 3 grims it gives you 3 total tier ups which is 2 min (kill before the 4th tier up).
Ignoring level difference, the giants have approximately equal morale to the turtle. With an 11 man mixed group (not stacking for dps more than usual) we were able to kill the turtle in just under 30 sec. While the giants are higher level, their mitigations are significantly lower, so it's quite possible it could be done.
Do not compare this to a turtle regardless of what you want to ignore.
Killing one Giant asap is fine, if the other giant's rage gets too high you will lack the ability to reduce.
One again, those saying you're close, i'm willing to bet everyone is close, but as i have said that gap between close & finished is huge.
This needs looking at and needs to be tuned for the 7.1 release or we will be waiting another 4/5 months for a fix.
Saying this is possible is indeed correct, just like Saruman t2 was possible before the most recent changes, you just had to be really really lucky.
Junior Member Online status:
Reputation:
Fixed it
Originally Posted by Timthe
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Reputation:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Junior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
