It is debated among the class of middle earth if Hunters need / deserve an update. If there was an update what would the focus of it be? There is one thing that we need to listen to and take into consideration about the future of our troubled class...I graciously call upon the mighty opinion of the Dev's to give us insight on this topic and to give us an idea if those who wait for a hunter update will be answered before ROR comes out this fall.
I hope this neutral thread (that does no have my opinion stated) gets us an answer from a Turbine staff member and becomes a place where we can talk about what the role/goal of the hunter is without blaming anyone (even if they did play a role).
I'm fine most of the time also, i pump out a pretty steady stream of DPS and can use many of my skills to fit the situation at hand. But i do notice a trend of when i'm in a group in the moors and PvE, hunters tend to be one of the first ones to die in a group. In PvP this is due to the fact most creeps know that most hunters cant take much damage one reason because they have no heals ( agility re-joiner and press onward aren't very practical) and they want to take out the hunters DPS quickly. In PvE it is mostly because you get aggro even if you use the one threat decreasing skill and using quick shot in endurance stance. Im just saying that a few changes to add a useful second role and a better threat dump skill and maybe even 1 practical heal would make the class a little better without making hunters greatly changed or Op like some other classes.
Hunters dont need a major update. Need increased survivability in the moors (instant press onward would do it) and something to manage threat in end game raids. Im at 65 now on my hunter he's the 4th toon ill bring to end game and there are a few things ive never used (like hunters art).
A second role would be nice as well, as it is hunter is a one trick DPS pony.
Don't consider myself troubled at all, but thanks for your assumption.
+rep.
No offense to anyone who posts around the forums, but this has to be the single most intelligent thing I've seen said in the hunter forums since I started reading and posting in threads.
There's always things it'd be nice to have for our class, but all in all we are in a good place (in spite of the whiners).
It would be interesting to have the trapper line to be improved, but our DPS and burst means there is few room to improve, or those classes with CC aswell would be diminished. I still believe there is room for 1-2 utility skills which affects the entire fellowship for making at least to bring one hunter to each raid totally necessary.
Also, maybe one trick for escaping adversity (which gives more survability in "oh ####" situations) would be welcomed. About threat ... well, we have enough tools, we just have to start raid fights in endurance and slowly go up. We have way too much DPS for starting at maximum potency, as the fight takes some minutes there is nothing wrong to start first 10-15 seconds of the fight with endurance, use some skills to reduce more the threat, and then switch to other stances. I still remember when at lvl 65 hunters at strenght stance were used just in OD trees for tanking, and you fought all the time in other stances.
Plus i like how the "stand" hunter has dissapeared, i see now most of the hunters in the raidforce use fleet stance and they do a ####load of DPS while moving. Same happens in the Moors, the hunter is a great offensive tool ... which maybe too few defences. I hope audacity will change that.
Also featuring: Saril, lvl 75 Human Loremaster, Dirgations lvl 75 Human Champion.
Phoenix Legion kin, Laurelin Server.
I don't see how the devs would do a major update for hunters as there is no need, for me it would be one of the most stated options. increase DPS or reduce threat or improve survivability, no need for all of them, because in essence thay all similar in result.
Though i would prefer increase in DPS to make us the major unquestionable DPS masters, i am not maxed out yet, but i am feeling sometimes that a better geared lower level RK is similar if not better DPSer than i am. If your quick and lucky enaugh you can usually dump threat through already availiable skills. But i am not at and game raids yet thus my opinion might not be objective enough.
I do not want or have asked for a major update. I am just pointing out that out of all the classes in LOTRO hunters have the least amount of useful roles. The only role we have is DPs and a stun and a root here and there doesn't make another role. Giving hunters another choice would be very fun and cool because you wont have to always be focused on the best damage setup. Hunters as a ranged solo target DPS class are fine and need no changes at all in my opinion but as ZC has pointed out hunters have the ability to be more then just a DPS class and could possibly have a minor support class trait line. Those who are fine with the DPS setup of the hunters with a stun and a root there should be happy and want no changes. I am on the border line of where i think hunters need no change in their dps category (red line) but could use a few changes in areas that developers say exist but are almost non existent (some of blue line but mostly yellow line).
I hope some people see my point of view that only some parts of hunters need to be changed and that we do not need a major update or a revamp.
To those of you who said "I'm fine": I'm guessing you just dont know or don't want to know what other classes can do in comparison to the hunter right now, so feel free to ignore this post and call it a trolling post or whatnot so you don't have to respond
The hunter class is far from fine. Sadly, a large majority of hunters call for uber buffs, big heals, increased melee survivability, etc. and lose a common goal, making others tune out. A smaller minority say they're happy with where we're at, and unlike the majority, actually push the same points every time, making their thoughts sound more determined and cohesive. I've attempted to do the same for the other side in many threads, and I continually see a pattern where every time I do so, the hunters who previously said "I'm fine and this is why" step back a little and do have to agree with parts of my opinion.
Hunters do not need a complete revamp, unlike wardens did for U6. That class was broken. We are skewed. The reason I say this is because the vast majority of our skills do not need to be touched, but some of our most valuable skills are messed up, aka skewed. This unfortunately allows many other classes to close the dps gap, provide more utility, survive better in moors, you name it.
Here's my (an abbreviated version) list of skills that need to be reworked, and why:
Beneath Notice: by far the most noticeable (haha, it's punny!) skill that needs a look at. #As our only reactive threat drop, it deserves to be either a hard threat drop (you LOSE 25-35% of your threat) instead of simply masking threat for 10 seconds. Those 10 seconds aren't enough time for the tank to build aggro over you again, and your threat level returns to normal once the clock stops.
Press Onward: not scaled properly. Should become a % of morale/power returned, with a much, much shorter induction. Currently it's not worth the legendary slot it takes up. Its about as pathetic as champions' continuous blood rage.
Bow of the righteous: again, not scaled properly. Should definitely be brought to lvl 75 levels. I also would like to see a very (and i mean VERY) minimal morale return tacked on as well (3-5 morale per hit) as this would ease our medium armor nerf over long fights, causing the healers to not to have to feed us heals as often in distributed damage fights, which burgs/minis/wardens don't have to worry about anyways due to their self-heals and defensive buffs.
Legacy combination: Title says it all. Combine our multi legacies into one package. Increase the point cost. #It's a done deal.
Trapper of Foes traits: don't focus so heavily on traps, unless we get debuffs tied into them. #I get that you want to stay focused on the name, but traps aren't viable in raid situations, esp mid fight, due to their precise positioning requirements and touchy utility (drag the mob thru the trap, feared mob might run into it, etc.). #Heightened senses should not have a - power cost, but rather apply a debug on tracked target. Stealthy shot... makes me laugh and cry at the same time. Throw it out and make a new debuff/group support trait. #Heart of the bard should not apply to heartseeker, but rather a CC skill like trap, shout of the predator, dazing blow, or dazing shot. #I'd personally like dazing blow. #Spring loaded traps should be more potent and last longer. Sturdy traps should tie in another debuff to currently trapped targets, like - outgoing damage or slower attack speed.
Hunter's Art: Rethink the skill. Tier it up like an rk's writs, maybe? Lower power cost, shorten the animation to IPS and BlA's level.
Now, I'm sure there are plenty of other fixes that should happen... for example, blindside should be immediate with dazing blow's animation, split shot should do something helpful, etc... but the ones above are the fixes that should have been addressed ASAP. #If they aren't addressed by the time riders of Rohan comes out, I'm honestly just gonna forget my hunter, as nicely geared as he may be, and just turn to my warden. He gets in groups much faster than my hunter, and I can visibly tell the difference in usefulness between the two classes right away. I'm not going to go on to list achievements of other classes that clearly outshine hunters in areas other than dps, and come frighteningly close in dps, but they're there. If someone challenges me on this, I can post them.
We've lost our usefulness. Not because the class is awful, but because our most essential skills are the ones that have been flawed slightly, and these minor issues were blown out of the water by RoI's changes. #If these skills are fixed, the class will be brought on par with other classes. #We don't need changes that redefine the class or make us survivability masters like wardens or burglars. We just need tweaks.#
To those of you who said "I'm fine": I'm guessing you just dont know or don't want to know what other classes can do in comparison to the hunter right now, so feel free to ignore this post and call it a trolling post or whatnot so you don't have to respond
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tl;dr (save what I quoted)
I also have a capped and decently geared minstrel that I play as often (if not more lately due to being the only really active healer for kin runs) as I play my hunter. I still think hunter is a really good place and I know what other classes can do, but they're not the hunter class. You can't compare apples to oranges. When it all comes down to it, some people just don't want to admit they can't stack up to other members of their own class, so they grasp around for some other comparison to cling to in hopes QQing that "we suck, we can't do anything well" over and over again will somehow "make the devs realize" that hunters "need" an "overhaul".
I also have a capped and decently geared minstrel that I play as often (if not more lately due to being the only really active healer for kin runs) as I play my hunter. I still think hunter is a really good place and I know what other classes can do, but they're not the hunter class. You can't compare apples to oranges. When it all comes down to it, some people just don't want to admit they can't stack up to other members of their own class, so they grasp around for some other comparison to cling to in hopes QQing that "we suck, we can't do anything well" over and over again will somehow "make the devs realize" that hunters "need" an "overhaul".
If that's tl;dr for anyone: LTP
i lol'd
stop being god mode and actually look at the hunter
we have medium armour
nothing to offer the raid but dps that burgs can do much more and we make the minstrels heal more with no survivability
we have the most threat in the game because we dont have an aggro drop (another one of those -dps parts of the hunter)
1/2 of our dps skills are useless
merc shot,split shot, hunters art, heart seeker, all our melee skills
1. make press onward 1s induction
2. make beneath notice 20% threat dump on a 1 minute cooldown
3. give us another survivability skill
4. make the bad skills good
ZC atm
1. i think this class is perfectly fine and a skill that has a 2m radius is fine
2. i will buff every class but the hunter and do the same speech every time hunters complain!
3. i will laugh when reading the forums
4. i will nerf the hunters untill no one plays them
i lol'd
1/2 of our dps skills are useless
merc shot,split shot, hunters art, heart seeker, all our melee skills
1. make press onward 1s induction
2. make beneath notice 20% threat dump on a 1 minute cooldown
3. give us another survivability skill
4. make the bad skills good
Absolutely. Playing my hunter I now use 5 skills to DPS in raids. QS, ISB, PenS, BldArrow, Rain of Arrows in various combinations with Fleetness. I use melee skills for buffs and interrupts rather than DPS, but I use heartseeker only as an opener in solo, I use merciful shot only for corruption removal, and I don't use barbed arrow at all - it's too slow. Hunter's Art - hah! Split Shot - only as an emergency focus grab.
stop being god mode and actually look at the hunter
we have medium armour
nothing to offer the raid but dps that burgs can do much more and we make the minstrels heal more with no survivability
we have the most threat in the game because we dont have an aggro drop (another one of those -dps parts of the hunter)
This is not true. Ranged DPS is needed in many raid fights, and there will be always spots for ranged DPS.
We´re not that bad on aggro, it´s just that we do lots of initial DPS and we have to "sacrifice" some DPS at the beginning of fights so we don´t pull it out. Also, after U6 RKs pull aggro much more even not having the hunter burst aggro, so right now hunters are the 2ns class with more threat in the game. Other DPS classes with good/Great threat reduction are melees: champions and burglars, and they have their own issues for being melees.
Also featuring: Saril, lvl 75 Human Loremaster, Dirgations lvl 75 Human Champion.
Phoenix Legion kin, Laurelin Server.
I also have a capped and decently geared minstrel that I play as often (if not more lately due to being the only really active healer for kin runs) as I play my hunter. I still think hunter is a really good place and I know what other classes can do, but they're not the hunter class. You can't compare apples to oranges. When it all comes down to it, some people just don't want to admit they can't stack up to other members of their own class, so they grasp around for some other comparison to cling to in hopes QQing that "we suck, we can't do anything well" over and over again will somehow "make the devs realize" that hunters "need" an "overhaul".
If that's tl;dr for anyone: LTP
Doesn't explain away the fact that our most essential, useful skills are the ones that are bugged, flip flopped, or just plain screwed up because of function/cd/utility. And I'm not saying compare any class under the sun to the hunter. That's plain idiotic. Especially comparing the godmode minstrel to anyone lol. I'm trying to get at the fact that RKs/burgs/smart champs can push out almost as much dps (200 or so less than us) while at the same time throwing out debuffs/utility/off heals and ability to change to main healer in an instant/off-tanking.
If that doesn't warrant the need to fix just the few skills that are needing it most, I will mourn U7. LTP might be an effective, albeit braggart, way to dismiss a less experienced player's opinion, but I know my hunter. I've been playing him for months in end game raids and I know it for a fact when I say our most viable skills are the ones that are borked.
1/2 of our dps skills are useless
merc shot,split shot, hunters art, heart seeker, all our melee skills
Lol. The only "useless" skills in there are split shot and hunter's art. Our melee skills aren't supposed to be critting and deving for 2k+, they're utility skills and darn good ones if the hunter knows how to use them.
Also lol at the godmode comment. Almost any class in this game can be "godmode" if you play it correctly - it's just that there are currently some that don't require as many brains to do it and people are spoiled.
Originally Posted by Bond007
Doesn't explain away the fact that our most essential, useful skills are the ones that are bugged, flip flopped, or just plain screwed up because of function/cd/utility. And I'm not saying compare any class under the sun to the hunter. That's plain idiotic. Especially comparing the godmode minstrel to anyone lol. I'm trying to get at the fact that RKs/burgs/smart champs can push out almost as much dps (200 or so less than us) while at the same time throwing out debuffs/utility/off heals and ability to change to main healer in an instant/off-tanking.
You're still comparing apples to oranges. RKs are not "instant" main heals (nor can they truly off heal) - have you ever had a DPS spec'd RK heal for you? It's not pretty and barely helps. They are also an entirely different class setup. Burgs don't even come close to hunter DPS - no comparison here and the fact that you mention them is funny. Champs can't beat our single-target DPS and since RoI has come out, I've yet to come across a champ that can really "off tank" anymore (having healed several in runs, they're not as hardy a class as they used to be).
I still stand by my original post. You can't compare two entirely different classes and just because another class is DPS-oriented doesn't mean that it's something you can just compare to the hunter.
You're still comparing apples to oranges. RKs are not "instant" main heals (nor can they truly off heal) - have you ever had a DPS spec'd RK heal for you? It's not pretty and barely helps.
Try the new steady hands + quick LI swap. You'll find it's quite effective, no matter your traits. You can't main heal the entire fight swapping that way, of course, but you can fill in the main healer's spot while they are getting rezzed/running off fire, etc.
Originally Posted by xxforcardassia
Burgs don't even come close to hunter DPS - no comparison here and the fact that you mention them is funny.
I think you'll find this really funny as well. Note the 2700 dps in the corner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=XbuEdeLmVsQ#! Oh, btw, did you notice how he's CCing the adds as they come out as well? Sooo... he's CCing and dpsing at the same time, yet still maintaining very high ST dps. I usually hit 2.8k dps in acid t2 (I'll probably hit 3k when i get a first ager) yet that still is only a difference of 300 dps, while he can pop off insta-CC and keep on hammering away at the boss.
Burgs can fill in two roles while only traiting for one. We have to choose whether we're going to be good at either. That's what's wrong. Especially the fact that our top line dps is only marginally better, while we lose more in exchange.
Originally Posted by xxforcardassia
Champs can't beat our single-target DPS and since RoI has come out, I've yet to come across a champ that can really "off tank" anymore (having healed several in runs, they're not as hardy a class as they used to be).
Then those champs aren't wearing heavy armor in common damage fights, which gives you a massive boost from medium armor's common mitigation. Or, in tact mitigation fights, they haven't quite understand the reality of using might/vit/morale gear, which is found aplenty in many raid skirms.
Originally Posted by xxforcardassia
I still stand by my original post. You can't compare two entirely different classes and just because another class is DPS-oriented doesn't mean that it's something you can just compare to the hunter.
They're not entirely different, they're all dps + off-____. Hunters are off-CC, champs off-tanking, rks off-heals, burgs are a healthy mix of dps and debuffs. The devs have repeatedly stated that hunters are meant to be the masters of dps while the others fill their off-roles more completely without having to trait so specifically for it, yet what I am seeing more and more of lately is the complete opposite. This is due to problems being shoved off to the side for too long while other classes are fine-tuned up.
P.S. I don't hate you devs, in fact I very much appreciate the warden changes... but RKs before hunters?? Really? That was unnecessary.
Try the new steady hands + quick LI swap. You'll find it's quite effective, no matter your traits. You can't main heal the entire fight swapping that way, of course, but you can fill in the main healer's spot while they are getting rezzed/running off fire, etc.
I think you'll find this really funny as well. Note the 2700 dps in the corner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=XbuEdeLmVsQ#! Oh, btw, did you notice how he's CCing the adds as they come out as well? Sooo... he's CCing and dpsing at the same time, yet still maintaining very high ST dps. I usually hit 2.8k dps in acid t2 (I'll probably hit 3k when i get a first ager) yet that still is only a difference of 300 dps, while he can pop off insta-CC and keep on hammering away at the boss.
Burgs can fill in two roles while only traiting for one. We have to choose whether we're going to be good at either. That's what's wrong. Especially the fact that our top line dps is only marginally better, while we lose more in exchange.
Not that one particular burgs parse in a fight is an end all be all piece of evidence, but Burgs are also putting +10% raid damage and +6% incoming crit chance on the mob while contributing their own DPS.
'm guessing you just dont know or don't want to know what other classes can do in comparison to the hunter right now,
Or perhaps we are players who have several characters and have used multiple classes and know exactly what they can do. Maybe, just maybe we might not be keyboard slobbering idiots and actually do think that for the most part the hunter is fine based on experience!
But then again, like someone said at the start of this thread, thanks for the assumptions.
Or perhaps we are players who have several characters and have used multiple classes and know exactly what they can do. Maybe, just maybe we might not be keyboard slobbering idiots and actually do think that for the most part the hunter is fine based on experience!
But then again, like someone said at the start of this thread, thanks for the assumptions.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Widoch again.
i think if we got a decent imediate healing skill and MAYBE a major agro drop skill we would be perfect, also by skill id be okay if it was just an improved skill instead of a brand new one
Or perhaps we are players who have several characters and have used multiple classes and know exactly what they can do. Maybe, just maybe we might not be keyboard slobbering idiots and actually do think that for the most part the hunter is fine based on experience!
If you really do have several characters and really do have a good grasp of each one in comparison to the others ("experience", right?) maybe you would understand my points and respond with relevant counter arguments since you say they are so plentiful?
I happen to have the privilege of having a brother who plays lotro as well. He's a lot more alt-o-holicy than me, and as such, has an endgame LM, champ, and rk. I also have made a couple of recent friends with more "hardcore" style endgame raiders who really know their main class inside and out. 2 burgs, a champ, an LM and a warden come to mind quickest.
Chatting with these guys occasionally and friendly arguing about who's class is better somehow always ends up in the same ballpark: they recognize the sincere need for a series of hunter fixes, which are long overdue since the beginning of RoI. Heck, some of these things could be done in a hotfix.
^ To summarize: I'm not the only one talking like this, people with other classes recognize our plight too. Being objective might hurt some people, but I'm glad that many endgame raiders are starting to put aside their own problems for the time being and ask for true balance instead. To start off with, many guardians and wardens (probably bc our issues bug them most, haha!) have started to come in here and side with those of us wanting proper, not exaggerated, changes.
If you really do have several characters and really do have a good grasp of each one in comparison to the others ("experience", right?) maybe you would understand my points and respond with relevant counter arguments since you say they are so plentiful?
Entirely agree. My comments are based on having a raiding burg who I use nearly as often as my hunter, a minstrel and a warden I occasionally blow the dust off.
If you really do have several characters and really do have a good grasp of each one in comparison to the others ("experience", right?) maybe you would understand my points and respond with relevant counter arguments since you say they are so plentiful?
I happen to have the privilege of having a brother who plays lotro as well. He's a lot more alt-o-holicy than me, and as such, has an endgame LM, champ, and rk. I also have made a couple of recent friends with more "hardcore" style endgame raiders who really know their main class inside and out. 2 burgs, a champ, an LM and a warden come to mind quickest.
Chatting with these guys occasionally and friendly arguing about who's class is better somehow always ends up in the same ballpark: they recognize the sincere need for a series of hunter fixes, which are long overdue since the beginning of RoI. Heck, some of these things could be done in a hotfix.
^ To summarize: I'm not the only one talking like this, people with other classes recognize our plight too. Being objective might hurt some people, but I'm glad that many endgame raiders are starting to put aside their own problems for the time being and ask for true balance instead. To start off with, many guardians and wardens (probably bc our issues bug them most, haha!) have started to come in here and side with those of us wanting proper, not exaggerated, changes.
Congrats on having alts. However, I'm not the one making assumptions about the people commenting on the thread. That was you, dear.
For every person complaining, you will find someone perfectly happy. You have your opinions and I have mine, I was mostly taking issue with you telling me what my opinion, experience, and understand is when to be perfectly honest, you can't possibly have a clue.
what fight but shadow t2 do hunters actually get to stand away from the group?
also threat,
endurance means u lose alot of aggro but also alot of dps at the same time and u have to spam QS for it to do anything
endurance trait- its basically useless ur gonna have to take out a trait that gives alot of dps, i trait 5 blues (need for legendary) with barbed bleed and swift bow damage < what 1 of them are u going to take out? swift bow is a need 5 blues is a need and barbed bleed gives u so much more dps
beneath notice (i nearly fell out of my chair) its a 10 SECOND aggro dump it is no where near enough time for a tank to get aggro back and ur gonna have to turn around and do NOTHING for that 10 seconds and maybe another 10 so they can even GET aggro
Lol. The only "useless" skills in there are split shot and hunter's art. Our melee skills aren't supposed to be critting and deving for 2k+, they're utility skills and darn good ones if the hunter knows how to use them.
Also lol at the godmode comment. Almost any class in this game can be "godmode" if you play it correctly - it's just that there are currently some that don't require as many brains to do it and people are spoiled.
merc shot is useless because blood arrow and pen shot can crit for asmuch of it with 2 or 3 focus instead of 6, what bosses actually need corruption removals anymore aswell?
swift bow does asmuch if not more then heart seeker unless u dev with focus pot but when does that ever happen
all out melee skills should be giving us something else since we are not at our main dps point (range) and dont have ranged auto attacks and are in range for every bosses AOEs
what fight but shadow t2 do hunters actually get to stand away from the group?
also threat,
endurance means u lose alot of aggro but also alot of dps at the same time and u have to spam QS for it to do anything
endurance trait- its basically useless ur gonna have to take out a trait that gives alot of dps, i trait 5 blues (need for legendary) with barbed bleed and swift bow damage < what 1 of them are u going to take out? swift bow is a need 5 blues is a need and barbed bleed gives u so much more dps
beneath notice (i nearly fell out of my chair) its a 10 SECOND aggro dump it is no where near enough time for a tank to get aggro back and ur gonna have to turn around and do NOTHING for that 10 seconds and maybe another 10 so they can even GET aggro
merc shot is useless because blood arrow and pen shot can crit for asmuch of it with 2 or 3 focus instead of 6, what bosses actually need corruption removals anymore aswell?
swift bow does asmuch if not more then heart seeker unless u dev with focus pot but when does that ever happen
all out melee skills should be giving us something else since we are not at our main dps point (range) and dont have ranged auto attacks and are in range for every bosses AOEs
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Originally Posted by Elflord410
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Re: The Developers opinion.
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