Thread: Question for the Cappies who are beating OT T2CM.

And I don't mean just Lighing? I mean Acid and Shadow. So far we have Lighting and Acid T2CM and we should have Shadow T2CM as soon as it open back up. But I have a debate going on with some peeps outside my kin on how Cappies should trait or should not trait for both trash and boss fights and would like to hear from the other cappies who have the exp to speak on this subject. Kript, I would love to hear from you too. Thank You.

I'm currently traiting 3 blue, 2R, 2 yellow (defiance and to arms) for the 1st three bosses. I trait 4 yellow for the forced taunt for the shadow trash to keep the nightcasters under control.

My theory is that in the time you've either wiped or beat the trash you would have only gotten off 1 or 2 valiant strikes anyways and the range is only 10m, and the dps boost from oathies in getting down the first/second trash mobs is more important, as your mezzes will be running out. Same goes for the bosses really, as most of the fights only seem to only last about 3-4min.

I've tried traiting 5 red with the capstone for some skirmishes, and have been parsing up to 1100 dps on the bosses, and am very much thinking about trying that for some of the OT content to give us even more of a dps boost (I currently only parse in the 400 range for most of it), but that would of course be at the expense of even more healing.

I think the worthy question to ask is this; what is killing you - is it really a lack of heals, or is one person/whole group getting basically 1-2 shot before the boss/trash is dead. If it's the latter, a small amount of healing from HoH isn't going to help you (if that's what you're debating).

And even more importantly - you guys have a server first, what are YOUR captains currently doing? Cause I wanna know!

Typically, every captain will trait differently and do what best works for them. In all honesty, traiting more than 3 Blues is going to be a waste on both trash and the boss fights. Most CMs are a dps race and not a survivability race, so HoH is not going to be beneficial at all, and will actually slow your group down. If you're having some issues on trash, it's a good idea for your captains to trait Blood of Numenor for their improved rezzes and short CDs on them.

I personally generally run a rainbow trait build. 2-3 Blues, 2-3 Reds, 2 Yellows, IDoME or SoTD depending on the trash wing, OBs, and FB. Pretty much keep the same setup for boss fights, but on some, I do go either 4 or 5 LtC to speed up dps, as our healing is solid and have very little need for extra support heals; not to say I don't still do them, just don't trait to improve them and still off heal just as much as I usually would. On a boss fight I'll generally parse between 800-1200 depending on how much moving around and/or off healing I'm doing; also depends on the fight and how my role plays into our strats.

Even for our kin runs, Kriptic and I are usually the two captains in our raids, and rarely, if ever, trait the same way. It comes down to the captain's playstyle, willingness to adapt/change their roles, and what is needed from the group.

Thanks Eao, first I want to say that I as a player have tons of respect for you and your kin, though you dont share strats, you are never elite, never have looked down upon us and always answered questions such as this. I had to bring this question up because i invite a couple new poeple into the kin, and while we are relearning trash pulls, we had a few wipes, but worked through it and still got stuff done. By Thursday we were able to clear trash on both Lighting and Acid with no wipes. But Sat night when we redid these wings to farm 1st agers and I was not there, we had a few wipes. Anyways, I am not going to get to much into it, but I booted those peeps that were in that raid for long afks after each wipes. So in the end, I am told, wont name names, think we were wiping so much because our cappies were not traited HoH and to get a honest answer out side of my kin, I came here. thank you. For me this case is now closed. Unless, they see this and respond as to why they think they are right.. And yes, our capppies our traiting both blues and reds and sometimes yellows.

wipes seem to happen when something goes terribly wrong...
Bad positioning, tank dying, effect not being potted correctly... Adds on healers. It never seems to be lack of healing on the group...

The important thing from my point of view is to have your captains shield brother the tank(s) unless it's serious dps time. And they ought to have the strength of will legacy to put incoming healing at +20%. None of the wings seem to output slow gradual damage that valiant strike (what you get from HoH capstone) would really be overcoming.

I don't want to get too off-topic just wondering what your problems were and why you think your captains were traited incorrectly? If you are having healing problems on the group it might be worthwhile to have your captains trait HoH... but that won't improve their healing output that much.

The trouble is that 90% of the population believes captains are SUPPOSED to be in HoH all the time. In fact when OD was still the endgame raid I almost got kicked out of my former kin for arguing about that.
Basically, these days you are told you WILL trait HoH and if not, you are not getting in.

I guess the idea comes from the isane struggle with heals in most groups. I admit I only have done several (like ten) unsuccessful Fire/Frost attemps on T2, but we couldn't do it even with 3 healers. Saruman T1, I can't imagine that with less than 3 healers, and HoH captains too. I wonder what kind of minstrels you guys have in your kins

"Everyone" thinks captain MUST heal. Considering my ###### dps output I kinda don't have a problem with that attitude myself these days, but there are a few interesting ideas in this thread...

On trash, the only time I may Shield-brother the tank is for Shadow trash. And that is usually only if we happen to have a champ tanking, otherwise Blade-brother 95% of the time on a champ in my group; speeds up the trash, less healing (generally) needed when things die faster, gives me a quicker Rallying Cry if needed, if not War-Cry for more dps from my champ buddy.

Blade-brother + inspire + Fellowship-brother > heals than HoH Valiant strike, in my opinion. I haven't parsed it, but it's easier to keep up with a short CD, if it misses can be reapplied sooner, again short CD wins in my book, and it's just an easy skill to incorporate into your rotation to also keep up your dps as well; saves time from have to stop, target someone, hit WoC, then go back to dps'n (unless you're target forwarding onto the tank).

We don't use 3 healers in Orthanc at all, and I honestly can't recall ever even traiting HoH in there, or any of our captains traiting HoH in there; unless someone's alt was needed and they didn't feel comfortable without the "safety net" of HoH. Even then, to be honest, I tell them to just inspect me and don't trait HoH lol.

Not saying the way that I do it is the right and only way, but if you get away from HoH, or even any solid trait line, you honestly do open yourself up to a more varied and versatile playstyle for both you and your raid groups.

Personally I run 5R + NfW + Relentless Optimism almost all the time with FB/OB/MoW as legendaries. I don't like to give up the full BB & ungated SL, but a rainbow build with IDOME is also viable (or IDOME instead of OB). I don't really see any reason to run full HoH for raiding since ROI.

Originally Posted by polishtrmpt94

We don't use 3 healers in Orthanc at all, and I honestly can't recall ever even traiting HoH in there, or any of our captains traiting HoH in there; unless someone's alt was needed and they didn't feel comfortable without the "safety net" of HoH.

Yeah, outside of attempting to main-heal, HoH does feel like a bit of a crutch for raiding. I really doubt any of the content is designed to need three full-time healers (well, except that OD Wound wing bit), but during that initial attempt and the refinement phase that follows it can feel like you do. That's just a general observation, though -- I don't have much Orthanc experience yet, so I very well could be wrong about that.

That said, so far I've found that a lot of spot-healing has been necessary in Fire & Frost, so I've been using HoH anyway for the slight extra boost to Words of Courage on the capstone. I might start experimenting with Red or Yellow builds for future runs, though.

Originally Posted by polishtrmpt94

Blade-brother + inspire + Fellowship-brother > heals than HoH Valiant strike, in my opinion. I haven't parsed it, but it's easier to keep up with a short CD, if it misses can be reapplied sooner, again short CD wins in my book, and it's just an easy skill to incorporate into your rotation to also keep up your dps as well; saves time from have to stop, target someone, hit WoC, then go back to dps'n (unless you're target forwarding onto the tank).

I'll have to go get some parses to look into it further but my experience has been the opposite. For many foundry runs I've found that VS is doing about 60% of the healing that rally cry does (with a 3/3 build), where as blade-brother (with fellowship-brother) inspire does far less. Given that you can't always be resetting the VS cooldown, but I was surprised how little healing the blade-brother inspire did.

/Scrump

I, personally, dropped HoH after some intial testing with RoI release and I haven't ever re-slotted it. It's a waste IMO. Usually I will run in a 4 red/3 Blue Hybrid with Fellowship Brother, IDOME and Oathbreakers, sometimes I'll go 2 Yellow/2 Red/3 Blue instead to pick up the marks cooldown and Defiance if I know I will have to tank/kite.

Blade Brother is pretty much my go to brother skill, unless I feel like our healers just can't keep up, then I will switch to Shield Brother. I very rarely use Song Brother unless I have to CoV the healer. In that case the full Inspire POT is pretty handy. There is just so much stuff in Orthanc that requires very fast burns. It's just better to zerg stuff down quickly rather than trying to heal through it. (In t2 at least)

Once I get the new 3 set bonus on the Perserverance Set (Only 3k Comms away!) I will definitely be testing out 5/5 MoW heavily to see what kind of numbers I am getting compared to the hybrid specs.

My advice is to just pick a spec that you enjoy and just have fun. There is really no wrong answer atm. Although, I probably wouldn't drop below 2 Blue traits for any sort of group content. Just my $0.02

Agreed, HoH is a fine safety net when learning normal T1/T2 content, but Idome+Oathies+Fellow brother is hugely beneficial for the crazy DPS Challenges.

I'm pretty sure that going MoW will improve your raid's dps more than IDOME will. It also adds more utility through defeat responses. Rainbow builds don't make sense from a dps standpoint.

MATH:
Assumed Raid dps: 10 000dps
IDOME's dps increase: ~1.65% on average (mastery contribution is 1.25%, crit increase is on average 0.5%, unless you are rolling 6 champions deep this is less than a 0.5% increase to dps, hunters should be crit capped etc, I'll give it 0.4%)

IF the group is doing 5k dps: 5000 * 0.0165 = 82.5 dps increase

The MoW capstone gives an average of 350 dps (assuming 2nd age). Not to mention defeat responses which allow you to use War Cry, which outside of Telling mark is our greatest tool for augmenting dps.

I still trait HoH, because 350 dps is a joke compared to what an actual dps class can do. Maybe I'll reconsider when I pickup a first age.

Traiting really depends on the group composition and desires of the raid leader
Unless I am asked for something specific, I trait 5red/2blue, but I do need sometimes to go 5HoH or 4-5LoM (fire and ice with our tactics). I keep IDOME mostly because people are still used to it too much... you know, there is always someone checking if scrolls/hope/tales/banner/idome are up. If someones complain and wants the IDOME buff, I retrait for 2r/2y/3b and slot FB/OB/IDOME for legendaries.

I feel your pain OP. I really wish we could get beyond this healing only stereotype.

Pre U6 I was getting 1000 - 1200 dps on avg (second age), when you combine our 1200dps plus our added dps to the group we have a pretty good dps contribution. The DPS we appear to be lacking isn't (mostly), it is being borrowed by the true dps classes. The only time our dps is lacking is when we don't bring our personal 1200 dps.

It's all about perception. We are not providing 1200 dps to the group we are providing 1200dps + (X contributed DPS). Lets say the 3 DPS in the group are doing 4,500 dps total, 1500 each. For ease of argument sake lets say BB only provides 10% damage to each dps class. 10% is 450 dps added and its up half the time so it's 225. Making our contributed dps 1425. ^{* (% are additive not multiplicative so the math is way off, but I left out the normal 25% from BB to compensate. It is just for demonstration)} We are only 75 under our dps classes and we haven't factored in SOW, Telling Mark, War Cry, etc.

We are either a living DPS buff or a living Heal buff. We only reach our true purpose as a dps buff when we dps and reach a contributed dps higher than a normal dps class. We are a gestalt class, and "our whole" is only greater once we reach that threshold in regards to dps.

______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ________________

---

I fully intend to get the DPS set from PvP first, and if it works in PvE it will add 5% inc damage to the mob, usable by the entire raid. Think of it like a 15% telling mark! If that buff stacks with other captains then stuff will blow up. Our personal dps will drop due to the loss of the orthanc dps set but our contributed dps will more than make up for it.

^^^ This is a big if, we will have to wait until someone gets this set and reports back on how it works. Edit: read on it works, and well too!

Thankfully after RoI captain can actually choose what to trait depending on group set up and destination. So HoH, LtC, 4R/3B and even 2R/2Y/3B are viable. I think only tanking set up is not used* in ToO. For legendaries it's always OB, as it's just sooo useful, Fellowship Brother and 3rd one is again up to each captain. If tank has trouble with surviving SotD will be spot on, IDoME if everything goes smooth and of course capstones for HoH/LtC.

HoH, hope banner and IDoME are 3 most overrated "myths" people expect from captains.

* I know that there are cappies and kins that try it out in T1, but there's just always a guard and warden willing to tank at least in kins I play with.

I really think PvP armour should only be useable in the moors :P

edit: as for IDoME - it's not AS useless as people say. Consider it's 3*75 or even 5*75 (for tank) in raw morale. People would sell their mothers for a lot less (Valour on lorebreakers :P). Also 1 might=10 phys mastery for example. It's really a nice legendary.

Btw thanks a LOT for reminding me for my old pre-RoI group setup. 5R3B worked wonders. Fits perfectly into the Jack of all trades idea.

Originally Posted by Armitas

I fully intend to get the DPS set from PvP first, and if it works in PvE it will add 5% inc damage to the mob, usable by the entire raid. Think of it like a 15% telling mark! If that buff stacks with other captains then stuff will blow up. Our personal dps will drop due to the loss of the orthanc dps set but our contributed dps will more than make up for it.

^^^ This is a big if, we will have to wait until someone gets this set and reports back on how it works.

I did some testing and it appears the Sure Strike bonus benefits from the +Telling Mark legacy. So you can spam Sure Strike to keep a constant additional +10% incoming damage, on top of Telling Mark! Not sure if this is bugged or what.

No word yet on if it stacks with other captains.

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

And I don't mean just Lighing? I mean Acid and Shadow. So far we have Lighting and Acid T2CM and we should have Shadow T2CM as soon as it open back up. But I have a debate going on with some peeps outside my kin on how Cappies should trait or should not trait for both trash and boss fights and would like to hear from the other cappies who have the exp to speak on this subject. Kript, I would love to hear from you too. Thank You.

So far, I've never had to trait for HoH. This is my usual set up and varies on certain things like if I'm going to be off tanking a lot or is it just a DPS race.

Off tank: for acid trash, shadow trash (bubble instead of IDOME), FF boss: 5 LoM with wrath and relentless optimism. If the boss doesn't give enough death responses like FF, ill just go fear the darkness.

DPS race: Fellows bro, IDOME, OB: 4 red, tact prowess and 2 blue.

Rainbow: 3 blue 4 red with idome, OB and shield.

Honestly, having a capt out of HoH won't do much if they have the relentless and wrath/fear no darkness.

Originally Posted by Beastnas

I did some testing and it appears the Sure Strike bonus benefits from the +Telling Mark legacy. So you can spam Sure Strike to keep a constant additional +10% incoming damage, on top of Telling Mark! Not sure if this is bugged or what.

No word yet on if it stacks with other captains.

You're already at 6 pieces? Man you are a beast! Thanks for letting us know. If you can find another cappy see if it will stack with other cappies.

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of champs suddenly cried out shing shing and started purrring.

Again, I want to thank everyone for thier input and what seems to be the standard way end game cappies trait. As a raid leader who has only played a mini, I have two, I have always had to pretty much trust my kin mates on how to trait. It has what made our kin so great and it is something I will keep doing. And hey, why should I ask for anything more, we are beating end game and we are a tight close group. Hopefully this post will open some peoples eyes who "believed our cappies need to be HoH," and look at things with an open mind.

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

As a raid leader who has only played a mini, I have two, I have always had to pretty much trust my kin mates on how to trait. It has what made our kin so great and it is something I will keep doing.

It's a sign of a good and healthy kin when the leader can explain the fight, and what is required from each class without having to micromanage each player like pawns. Trust forms the strongest bond for kins. Sounds like you got a good thing going.

Sounds like a kin I would enjoy as well, as I am in a kin very similar.

Originally Posted by Fuin

Thankfully after RoI captain can actually choose what to trait depending on group set up and destination. So HoH, LtC, 4R/3B and even 2R/2Y/3B are viable. I think only tanking set up is not used* in ToO. For legendaries it's always OB, as it's just sooo useful, Fellowship Brother and 3rd one is again up to each captain. If tank has trouble with surviving SotD will be spot on, IDoME if everything goes smooth and of course capstones for HoH/LtC.

HoH, hope banner and IDoME are 3 most overrated "myths" people expect from captains.

* I know that there are cappies and kins that try it out in T1, but there's just always a guard and warden willing to tank at least in kins I play with.

I trait 5y 2b for OT. I make sure to keep inspire and WoC tics on the tank (+14 pulse legacy) at all times, use shield brother to give +20% inc healing, and make sure to pack SotD. On top of adding damage reduction to myself and the tank freeing the mini up a bit more to take care of business, I also intercept baddies that are pulled by a silly champ or hunter. More than decent healing, survivability that can't be beat, and a aoe force pull on demand. Just too tasty! The only downside is the power consumption. I have a LM on my payroll during raids, and drink power pots like water.

Originally Posted by Armitas

You're already at 6 pieces? Man you are a beast! Thanks for letting us know. If you can find another cappy see if it will stack with other cappies.

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of champs suddenly cried out shing shing and started purrring.

Update on this - the bonus does NOT stack with other captains.

Still, used the PvMP Command set for Acid CM (zerg method) and Shadow CM. Raid DPS seemed beyond exceptional, even with a missed Oathies!

Unless raidlead asks for something I trait 2r/3b/2y; IDOME, FB, OB. I don't like retraiting all the time, and this feels a solid all purpose setup giving some elbow space to healers.

For the thrash its blade brother, for the bosses (unless otherwise needed), shield brother on tank, he usually likes the +20% from SoW. Hope banner to calm the squishes (maybe would change to ettens banner if i would have the time to PvP). I usually have draigoch set on for the rev mark bonus - the other cappy can wear something more fancy.

Never missed HoH (I had like 2-3 runs when I was asked to trait it even when 65), I probably would only trait if we would wipe a lot which we luckily don't do.

I hoped to give my old hybrid build with OB instead of a capstone a shot but sadly I was told I must trait HoH, because the group needed the better heals. Bah.

Hopefully http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...13#post6090513 will help convince those who want to force you into HoH capstone build over a non-capstone build that it simply isn't worth it anymore.